India is reimagining the future of warfare. In this exclusive conversation with Air Marshal Anil Khosla (Retd), former Vice Chief of Air Staff, we explore how emerging technologies are reshaping the battlefield — from drones and swarming tech to the AMCA stealth fighter, HAL’s role, and the push for civil-military aviation collaboration.
#InFocus #FutureOfWarfare #IndianAirForce #AirMarshalAnilKhosla #DroneWarfare #AMCA #HAL #IndiaChina #MilitaryTechnology #DefenceAnalysis #AerospaceIndia #India
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#InFocus #FutureOfWarfare #IndianAirForce #AirMarshalAnilKhosla #DroneWarfare #AMCA #HAL #IndiaChina #MilitaryTechnology #DefenceAnalysis #AerospaceIndia #India
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00:00Today I have a very special guest with me. I have with me Air Marshal Anil Khosla. He's a retired
00:16Indian Air Force officer who served as the 42nd Vice Chief of their staff. He has an illustrious
00:22career of over four decades and of course he's a very important voice in shaping India's aerial
00:28defense and strategic capabilities. First of all thank you so much Air Marshal Khosla for speaking
00:34with Asianet News. Thank you, thank you Inna and Asianet for getting me on this show and looking
00:39forward to an interesting discussion. So sir today's discussion will be centered around future of
00:45warfare especially in the Indian context and I want to start this conversation with one of the
00:51statements that Defense Chief General Anil Chauhan gave this year a couple of months ago where he
00:57said that old weapons cannot win new wars and that is where I want to start this conversation
01:04because he called for indigenous drone capabilities. Now we do know that drone comes with it with its
01:10own advantages such as risk mitigation, they are cheaper, they can also carry out precision
01:16air strikes but how do you compare drones with conventional weaponry and which do you think is
01:22more effective? Yeah it's not a question of or you know I mean it's not that drone or conventional
01:29actually it is and so if you remember the air chief also in his one of his talks he said that drones are
01:37you know a sort of a irritant and so drones are okay for asymmetric warfare where you know a non-state actor
01:46or a state which has got less military power can take on the bigger military power whereas the
01:53conventional weapons are required for you know sustained high intensity military conflict operations
02:00so it's not question of or it is and and drone is a very very generic term I mean there are so many
02:06kinds of drones around small handheld drones to where the soldier carries it in his hand and operates it
02:13two big drones which can carry big weapons and missiles and I mean there are different different
02:19kinds of drones so you have to have a balance when you consider the full structuring and cds is very
02:26correct in saying that you know the technology is advancing so far and fast and the technology
02:32does affect the warfare in a very very big way especially the air warfare so you have to
02:37stay along with the technology and you have to full structure accordingly and maintain a balanced full
02:43structure and I think he also uh insinuated uh around operation sindoor because there we saw pakistan
02:50using drones though it was unable to uh lay any damage on indian uh defenses so if you see other wars
02:58also you know russia ukraine which has been going on for so long and even i'll versus hamas and uh this
03:04thing so both the sides you know are launching uh long range vectors and uh missiles as well as drones
03:11uh and uh even in our case you know uh drones are being used by uh our western neighbor uh if you
03:18remember a few years back a small weapon was dropped from a small drone over patankot air base
03:24then even on a you know the smuggling of narcotics weapons keeps going on with these drones
03:30and even in the israel war the first attack if you remember was conducted by uh we what do we call
03:36it uh you know sub-conventional platforms like paragliders and hang gliders and others that saw
03:41hamas attack and subsequently you know the rocket and these drone attacks continue and if you see
03:47russia ukraine war for so long it's been going on the intensity keeps varying and what happens is
03:53ukraine uh does some drone attack and then the punitive action is done by the russia so a prolonged sort of
03:58irritant warfare goes on with drones do you think that we have this kind of infrastructure training
04:04hubs so that these armed forces are able to acquaint themselves with these advanced drones because you
04:10yourself mentioned there are various number of drones and of course there are ai driven drones as well
04:16so there are three aspects with drones you know one is you know the drones uh as we say so what we need
04:22to be self-reliant in drones you can't rely on outside world for uh drone industry because you know if
04:29you have your own self-reliant home industry then you can scale up the production anytime you want and
04:35different types of drones need to be able to produce that uh home that is one aspect the second aspect
04:42is along with the drones you need to develop and operationalize fully anti-drone systems which lot of work is going on at the moment
04:50hl has already produced something drd has produced which is being used so anti-drone systems are very
04:56very important and now prime minister has announced in august the position chakra iron dome sort of
05:03system which the israelis have and other countries also have something similar very integrated air defense
05:09the third aspect you covered is about the training so training you know is a responsibility of the person
05:15who is operating those drones or the anti-drone operations efforts have been operating drones for
05:20very long and we have trained uh trainers uh who can train the other pilots and drone operations uh
05:27army announced recently that they are going to have hubs for all their soldiers because their numbers are
05:31very large of micro and small drones and the training hubs they require as far as civil application is
05:37concerned the drones are going to come in a big way in civil uh operations so we need to have uh systems in
05:43place procedures in place where the good drones can fly and bad drones are not allowed to fly
05:48so the training uh hubs and as far as private uh drone operation is concerned although we already
05:54they have started flourishing in our uh country also as well as other places where people are being
06:00trained to operate these uh drones yeah now that you've mentioned the civil civil use of drones i also
06:06want to know your perspective on dual use assets uh you know there is often a discussion about the
06:13civil military fusion that needs to take place because there is a historical gap since the time
06:17of british years and now we need to start sharing resources infrastructure technologies and this is
06:23not only good for national security but it will also help us become self-reliant very true you know
06:29like this buzzword we call it civil military civil military fusion and china uses mcf mcf military civil
06:37fusion not that it makes any difference whether civil is first or military is first so china has
06:43got a very good example of mcf and in our case also a lot of dual use infrastructure is picking up now
06:49but we need to formalize it properly and china is a good example to see in china the military civil
06:55fusion is under six headings in terms of infrastructure in terms of trained manpower in
07:00terms of sharing knowledge and skill in terms of civil defense mobilization and logistics so it's a
07:08very very well established means whatever a civilian use it can be used into military and simply whatever
07:14is in the military can be used for civil use as and when required in our case it is picking up slowly
07:19but in piecemeal here and there like for example if you see now uh this week itself air force did a
07:25landing on and take off on uh runway on the highway so this project started five six years back and
07:31where the highways all the old highways it was identified which can be used as runways and the new
07:36ones which are coming up will identify stretches where it can be used it's a very important aspect
07:42so similarly for the airport wherever the civilian airports are there like in china and tibet all the
07:47airfields which they are making now uh quite a few of them so all dual use military as well as civil so
07:54in our case it is picking up but we need to uh you know do much more than what we have been doing
07:59so far now air marshal khosla currently we have 29 combat squadrons of course the sanction limit is
08:06of 42 but some of the experts say that in order to be completely uh you know have good deterrence
08:13uh towards enemies we need to have at least 50 combat squadron now i have two questions uh the number
08:19of combat squadrons that we have currently uh is it enough if there is a two-front war with china
08:26and pakistan and secondly i want to know uh till the time we wait for these combat squadrons to expand
08:31and meet at least its sanction limit uh what are complementary and alternative options uh do we have
08:39yeah you know that question is being bugging everyone and uh uh even uh while in the service as well
08:45as the defense experts and everyone see the 29 uh yeah the fact is that we are very low at the moment
08:51as far as the strength is concerned and this 42 or 45 whatever this was in 1962 vintage when you know
08:57what uh 62 war this was uh worked out now the world has moved on both our enemies you know pakistan and
09:04china have their capabilities increased manifold from those days so if you do a fresh review most probably
09:10this uh a figure will work out to much more you mentioned a figure of 50 i have heard various
09:15figures uh 45 to going to 70 uh you talked about deterrence so you have to maintain a minimum deterrence
09:23value where your enemies you know consider three times before doing anything against you that is what
09:29deterrence is and minimum deterrence value depends on the amount enemies how many enemies you have what
09:35are their capabilities and what is their attitude and if you see both our adversaries they're moving way
09:39ahead china is marching way ahead of us they're competing with the us and they're pulling pakistan
09:44also along so if you do a fresh review maybe the figure will come out much more then i'll take a
09:50minute more in on this question because a very important and a lot of experts also say with the
09:55modern technology coming in it can be offset the numbers true the numbers can be offset but a balance
10:02has to be maintained between you know the fighters as well as the other vectors as well as drones you
10:08uh then we need combat enablers our combat system that we talked about earlier so a balance for
10:10structure needs to be maintained but the fact of the matter is the numbers of uh as well as uh quantity
10:16and quality of fighters we need to increase that's a requirement that's why the government has realized
10:21and given a push in this matter as well as indigenization is concerned the stages they just mark
10:26one amka mark two and then amka as well as uh also uh you know on the directors and drones uh then we need
10:36combat enablers our combat support aircraft like you know refuelers and avacs uh then we need uh modern
10:42weapon systems i mean there is no shortcut to it we need to spend money and we need to expedite our
10:49self-reliance uh push uh air marshal khosla you mentioned amka the fifth generation stealth fighter jet
10:56india aspires for now the deadline which is being given is 20 35 for induction uh do you think that we
11:02will be able to meet that deadline yeah so it's a very very optimistic uh deadline i i mean i don't
11:11want to sound pessimistic i mean it is possible but uh uh it cannot be guaranteed why i'm saying cannot
11:18be guaranteed is because two two three reasons first is past record if you see tejer i mean 30 years plus
11:25it took and uh you know although the government has given a lot of push now and uh 17 odd verticals
11:31things are moving now but seeing the time frames as far as for earlier project and progress that is
11:39one doubt second is you know the mark 1a delivery is already got delayed the mark 2 then comes up then
11:48amka so i'm little worried about the timelines whether we'll be able to meet or not if we meet very
11:54good because we are leafrogging and in this leaf frog we have been getting delayed and then that's why the
11:58requirement of procuring from outside and uh in this case also if the leaf frog doesn't work even 114
12:05aircraft which uh project is being talked about mrca i think we need to go in for that you know china
12:10has already inducted fifth generation aircraft they are about to sell fifth generation aircraft to pakistan
12:16and here we are about making fifth generation aircraft inducting 2035 which is also very optimistic
12:22china has already flown six aircraft prototypes so we need to step up on the gas and in this matter as
12:28uh procurement of fifth generation or better quality technologically better quality platform and
12:34weapons is concerned hermarshall talk to me about the symmetries between india and china now that you've
12:39mentioned china i would like to know not only geographically the asymmetries between both the
12:44countries but also in terms of defense capabilities yeah so china is a very you know modernizing its
12:51forces in a very very uh what should i say organized way you know they are pumping in money into it
12:57they are uh you know uh in inducing technology into it they are doing a lot of technology refers
13:04after a defense system they're concerned in certain fields they've gone ahead of uh us and their race is
13:10with the u.s they want to be world number one and the timeline is 2049 which they given that world
13:15class military i mean they left it very vague but what it means is that they want to be world number one
13:20so because of the mission i mean they are really really moving fast you know today only yesterday
13:27only news came uh that that third aircraft carrier as far as navy is concerned is joining their force
13:31lucian which is indigenous i mean they made three aircraft carriers indigenously and we are still
13:37struggling uh as far as that is concerned so talking about the military power there are few things
13:42which we need to keep in mind as far as china is concerned firstly their defense expenditure is almost
13:47three times that of art that is the stated uh expenditure which china you know you don't know
13:54exactly what is the truth second thing they have a very well established defense industry so if you
14:00take any major power in the world one of the features is a well-established defense uh production
14:05ecosystem we are still struggling we are as mentioned earlier really frogging we will not talk
14:10about china means of doing it but they have done it i mean they have established defense industry
14:15uh third is you know as far as aircraft aircraft aircraft is concerned i will not do bean counting
14:21but uh you know fifth generation aircraft as other fighters is concerned they have got strength is
14:26almost two and a half times and we talked about fifth and sixth generation they're operating navy we
14:31talked about i mean so they were modernizing in a very very distinct the mcf we talked about
14:36only thing they're lacking where we are better off is in terms of human elements which are very important
14:41in the warfare that is our troops our soldiers our airmen our sailors are firstly very highly motivated
14:49secondly they are very experienced we have gone through various wars the china has not fought many
14:54wars that is one of the things which they're lacking in the airport indian airport we have a well
14:59established system of picking up things from various uh world parts world airports the best practices
15:06then tailoring it according to our the tactics the strategy and everything so in this human factor
15:11wise we are still better off now that we are behind uh in terms of defense capabilities uh how do you
15:18think we should balance it out in uh in between indigenous capabilities and what we procure from
15:23outside of course us is very reluctant to have technology transfer to india uh for f-35 and we have said
15:30that we are not going to buy it uh how do we balance between global cooperation with different countries
15:36in different sector and also producing indigenously yeah in a very very tricky uh aspect but very necessary
15:45so if you see all the wars the one lesson which is coming out i mean strength five in military
15:50parlance what we say is that loud and clear is that indigenous defense production is the only way uh
15:59you know there are i mean we can go on for hours about advantages and disadvantages for procuring
16:04outside firstly the cost factor secondly you're reliant on someone third is strategic autonomy
16:09fourth is trust factor i don't know with these uh modern weapons with the software what sort of uh
16:15bugs can they introduce or a time bomb they can introduce uh that is one secondly the cost the
16:20technology nobody is going to give you the latest technology so indigenous is a given means you have to have
16:26indigenous capability and all the critical ones now as i said you know we have joined the bandwagon a bit
16:32late and we have been slow in progress earlier in our leapfrog so now a situation has come where our
16:38enemies are marched ahead we need to induce technology we need to spend a lot of money on the defense
16:44systems we need to invest a lot of money in r d as far as technology is concerned as far as into military
16:49domain is concerned uh so all these things will cost money and we need a lot of impetus so the thing
16:56is to maintain the balance we need at the time has come where if you do it indigenously it will cost
17:02much more and it'll take a lot of time so we need some hand holding from outside so we need to like
17:08in our case the inventory is very very diverse you know we have been buying weapons from france
17:13israel russia us so whichever is better so in this case also we need to go in the outside world where
17:22the impetus is now government is saying you know making india is a must technology transfer tot is a
17:27must you know fdi is a must so wherein the outside whatever deal we make with somebody the technology
17:34has to blow back the fdi the foreign investment has to come in and making india has to come in so that
17:40our ecosystem progresses so the balance which you talked about is that firstly it's very very
17:46straightforward we need to spend a lot of money number one number two whatever deal we do with
17:51outside i mean it's very easier said than done we need to make sure that the deal doesn't kill our
17:58indigenous programs but augments it i mean that is technology of transfer takes place whatever and
18:03technology of transfer also not the superfluous uh you need to have all the critical uh the same
18:09example you know you must have seen this uh mark one eight ages we are talking about delayed why
18:14because they're not available now if the engine is not available what will you do with that uh
18:18airframe i mean it's no good critical technologies we need to develop so this balancing act
18:24i mean is a very very difficult proposition at the moment so we need to uh as i said spend money and
18:31have deals i take outside help from our friendly uh countries i'll take two points from what you just
18:37uh said first investment in r d uh how much because i want to talk futuristic uh of course we are going
18:45to look at drone conventional weapons but there are advanced technologies like the use of ai we have
18:51cybox killer robots all of this we have also seen in exhibitions in china all of these advanced weaponaries
18:57advanced machines how much of an r d investment we need to do for that because this is going to be
19:02uh what we'll see in the coming decades yeah very true you know very very uh good question see as i
19:09said you know we have been lagging initially but now if you're trying to catch up and if you don't
19:14invest in something now you will again lag back in future as well so technology is moving very very
19:19fast you may have mentioned quite a few things uh you know beside drones even these my uh small micro
19:24uh ai driven uh platforms like mosquito size uh and yesterday only uh got a distinct that germany
19:33has produced some cockroaches which can be used for spying you know about a month months back china
19:39had developed a mosquito size uh drone which can be used for you know surveillance and other things
19:44of course the u.s and some other countries had a farm-sized uh drone which earlier so what is happening
19:51is with the ai and the miniaturization taking place these micro drones are coming in not the micro insect
19:57like things are coming in i mean this is one example so the unmanned platforms i club them under unmanned
20:03platforms even the drones and these micro objects and other things these are one technology the second
20:10technology of course and then is the long long range vectors with hypersonic weapons uh very long range
20:16weapons then directed energy weapons like lasers and others so these are various technologies which
20:21are coming in the warfare in a big way good news is that we have started investing and thinking about
20:28these our r d is also drdo is also looking into not only drdo even our production agencies are looking
20:35into these aspects so that you know we do not lag back in the future and the good also good news is the
20:41private sector has been brought in which will give an impetus to our ecosystem and also with this
20:46private sector the r d facilities which were earlier with the only the defense psus and our drdo and others
20:53they have been opened up so that the private sector can also benefit from it and progress these cases
20:59so we are doing i mean the government has given a lot of impetus i hope all these things will work and see
21:06another factor uh just 30 seconds is that you know in our case earlier whatever technology came in
21:14first it was used in the civil domain you know for the benefit of the markets or the implement and
21:19then it used to come in military but now that has to change and is changing that simultaneous processing
21:25that means the same technology is developed also for the military youth and as well as for the civilian
21:30use so i am hopeful that uh whatever steps we are taking in future at least will not lag back
21:36india is also trying to enter civil aerospace manufacturing and we have already announced the
21:41deal between hl and uh uac russia's uac uh to produce a sj-100 uh civil aircraft now first do you think
21:50that there will be a transfer of technology in this case and uh given the fact and you've also mentioned
21:56the drawbacks that hl has the challenges that we face the delays the bottlenecks which also the
22:01defense chief uh general anil johan has mentioned uh recently in his speech uh do you think that hl
22:08will be able to crack this to actually uh make india's first ever civil aerospace aircraft yeah you know
22:15you're touched on many uh things in this question i mean the question is loaded with about four or five
22:20things we can go on for hours from the discussion firstly hl will be able i'll go backwards uh
22:26the last one first because that is what you hear the last and you remember so actually it's not
22:30question of hl will be able to not hl has to uh come up to the expectations the reason is survival now
22:39so now see earlier what was happening was and when we got independence and when we started making these
22:44dpsus that is defense production uh units so there was a sort of protectionist approach to these
22:52obviously so you know you didn't want outsiders to come up so that they can flourish and do the job
22:57but that time is finished now so now it is you know it's not that you protect them and let the let
23:03them flourish rather than the private industry the private industry can bring in a lot so now it has
23:08become a fair playing ground so the hl has to live up to its expectation number one certainly you
23:13mentioned uh in the earlier question also usa transfer of technology let me clarify here you know there
23:19were a lot of trust deficit as far as the usa is concerned uh you know 1971 they cited pakistan
23:25they sent the fleet in the european wall and other things and periodically also you know threatening with
23:30the uh you know katsa and other uh things although last 30 years you know a lot of development took
23:36place where the trust got developed between uh uh usa and india but the recent uh utterances by
23:44uh the president of usa trump and also you know the tariff warfare which is going on as a game the
23:52trust is really dipped so the us transfer of technology i'm doubtful f-35 you mentioned i mean it
24:02cannot come in because of various reasons one is you know it's costly secondly the nato partners uh
24:07first they have to be delivered then only india's turn will come then we talk about supply chain issues
24:12you know there are a whole lot of other countries not to countries which are involved in the supply
24:16chain so that complicates the issue so there are various factors as well as american equipment is
24:21concerned now coming to sj-100 you know the russian we've been buying equipment from russia and in
24:29earlier years russia was the only country which was able to give us military equipment and at a very
24:34very cheaper rate because they were not into uh you know making profit out of us but they were into
24:39strategic reasons they were supporting us and they really our industry and as well as our defense
24:45forces were reliant on russia but things change thereafter now we've got a very diverse uh inventory
24:51all three services army navy efforts as i said we have been buying best thing available in the market
24:56from various sources although that is also a problem but in some way it is a advantage also if one tap
25:02closes at least the others are available now coming to sj-100 again you know not only military even
25:08civil use aircraft also we need to develop we have gone into earlier but a smaller scale you know
25:15donier and avro we have done license production then startup program was there which has been revived in
25:212024 of course this is 75 to 100 seater we have what we are talking about earlier experiences 19 to 20
25:28seater smaller aircraft so sj-400 will make a difference in our ecosystem and at the moment the initial
25:36mou has been signed but once the contract is signed i should be in such a way that a lot of transfer of
25:41technology does take place and our uh defense production as well as uh you know aviation production
25:47ecosystem flourishes as far as boeing is concerned it's got a lot of uh presence in india but if this
25:54deal goes through i mean boeing will suffer to some extent the market share they will have to share it
26:00with the russians as far as the occurred are concerned do you think that this aircraft that
26:05we are vying for it will be able to compete with france's airbus and boeing by us it will have that
26:12kind of standing yeah so thing is they are very very well established companies you know even china
26:18is getting into the world market they realize that uh you know the profit maximum profit is in the
26:25uh defense uh industry so they are also trying to not only defense industry even uh racial civil
26:32industry so only there are you know four five companies and two three countries which are capable
26:37of it and they are you know ruling the roost as well as this uh domain is concerned china is also trying
26:43to get into it and china is way ahead of us it will it is difficult because you are competing against
26:48already established uh companies who have got who got a way ahead lead and they have already got a
26:56you know established themselves as a supplier they've got a supply chain going they've got quality
27:02assurance going so to compete it is difficult but sometime you have to start and then start
27:06competing that's the only way out i think it's a good start and a lot needs to be done to compete with
27:13these uh well-established companies and uh get a foothold and then thereafter expand uh in the market
27:19a final question air marshall khosla uh on the recent comments by defense chief where he said that
27:25hl needs to be transparent uh it needs to tackle the delays and the bottlenecks and it also needs to
27:31provide quality what are your thoughts on it so he didn't single out hl i think he made a remark in
27:37general uh as far as all different suppliers are concerned and uh i mean so what i said earlier uh
27:45i mean on similar lines in the sense that you know if you have to establish yourself in the defense
27:52world defense or manufacturing ecosystem you need to look into these things because you know the buyer
27:59need look look for this thing you cannot have time delays you cannot have quality issues so if you
28:05have to compete you have to produce a top quality like transfer i'll give you an example you know
28:10when you deal with france or rapal and other this thing they will deliver one day early but they will
28:15not deliver one hour late that is their reputation okay so that is one in our case i mean we had cases
28:21earlier whether we delays uh lot of delays rather and second thing is quality assurance obviously i mean
28:28you have to look into the quality it's not only question of you know selling it it is question also of
28:34selling and sustaining it so you need to look in you need to look into the supply chain you need to
28:39take the responsibility of that system now the trend is the companies are selling the weapon or the
28:46platform or the system and they're sustaining it i mean they're maintaining it that the serviceability
28:51is maintained that sort of because that's sort of they're capturing the market so we have to look
28:56into all these aspects and not only actually all the manufacturers who are coming in the private
29:00sector as well as DPSUs they need to look into this aspect and gear up to deal with these issues so
29:06that they can get a foot hold in the world market
29:16you
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