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LearningTranscript
00:00:00so hello everybody here is michael from new left and today i have a very precious new guest
00:00:20uh janet please introduce yourself
00:00:23hi michael and um to all your listeners uh my name is janet armstrong i am currently uh the senior
00:00:33coordinator with unicare at uni global union uh so we are a global union federation representing
00:00:41more than 20 million services workers around the globe so i'm a long-time unionist um and really
00:00:49pleased to be here talking with you thank you thank you well i'm really happy to talk with you
00:00:54because uni europa uni global that's our behemoth of unionization in the world so you have many
00:01:02stories to share with us and well let's get started in the big picture so please explain in more details
00:01:09to folks what is really uni europa uni global you know the whole setup how it's done because most
00:01:15slovaks don't have a clue and even i would say most europeans will potentially watch this interview
00:01:21don't have a clue what actually is unionization and what is under this uni global umbrella
00:01:26sure um and i think it's a really valid question because even when i was um involved in unions for
00:01:33a long time it wasn't until later in my union life that i really started to understand what the global
00:01:40union federations like um like uni global are and so uni global is um like a peak body or a federation
00:01:50of unions um as i mentioned we represent unions in the services sector so unions in the services sector
00:02:00will join uni global union and become affiliates or become members and therefore all of their members
00:02:06are also members of uni global there's many other global union federations around the world for
00:02:12different industries and sectors um like the itf the the transport federation uh the iuf the food workers
00:02:22um and and several others so uni global uh we have 20 million plus service sector members worldwide
00:02:31including hundreds and thousands or millions really of health and care workers and so i work in the
00:02:39health and care department uh supporting other health and care trade unions around the world
00:02:47um and what uni global does and what most other global union federations do it's about first and
00:02:56foremost uh supporting uh supporting our members and we are membership based um and member led and run
00:03:03organizations like most other good unions so it depends on the decisions the democratic decisions of
00:03:10our members um but our core activities and the things that we do are um things like representing our members
00:03:20uh and services uh and services workers in global and regional forums like the ilo um the international labor
00:03:29organization the oecd the united nations um in the eu and the g20 um where many global labor standards
00:03:40are set so we have a really important role there uh we also support organ uh support organ uh support
00:03:49organizing within unions so support your unions to better organize to better campaign um to to fight and
00:03:58win around the issues that are important to them and their members so we help build capacity
00:04:04we help build international solidarity because we know that we are stronger together
00:04:10and in this day and age where we see so many multinational companies
00:04:15um operating in various countries um operating in various countries and various sectors it's even more
00:04:21important so that we can unite unions across borders and so that workers can have that solidarity and have
00:04:28that collective power just like the businesses do as multinationals and um exert that influence and
00:04:36and that power to win better wages and better conditions for themselves and their colleagues
00:04:41okay i will also learn something new yeah thank you thank you for the introduction uh i will probably
00:04:49learn something new as well when we take the whole global setup of unions so where exactly is uni global in
00:04:56that mosaic of all the other unions you are the biggest union organization on the planet the second
00:05:03biggest the third biggest you know how is it the whole universe of unions uh how is it set up i have no idea
00:05:11um i'm not sure how we we ranked for size but generally the the the global union federations are um grouped by industry so
00:05:21uh or you know sectors so as i mentioned there's uh that a guff is what we call it the global union federation so
00:05:29there's a guff for food work food industry workers um we are the guff for services sector workers um there's a guff for
00:05:38public sector workers there's a guff for the transport workers so there's a few different
00:05:45union federations based on um kind of industry umbrellas i know industry all for example so that's one of
00:05:54these as you call it yeah okay okay yes exactly and another question that popped into my mind is that
00:06:01when you are talking about uni global obviously global setup but i would assume not everywhere it's
00:06:08the same strength hold not everywhere it's the same footprint so some some countries maybe even but
00:06:15some continents is where you are really strong and while others there is room for improvement so i do
00:06:21know how it's set up are you primarily strong in europe or on south america or whatnot because i have no idea
00:06:28you know yeah we um so as well as being divided by our industry bases so within uni global itself we
00:06:38um have different departments for the different subsectors of the services industry so like i work in
00:06:44the health and care industry um we have post and logistics we also have a commerce department we have
00:06:52um professionals and managers so there's there's um many different departments within uni itself but
00:06:59then we also have as you mentioned regional um uh branches as well so we you there is uni apro which is
00:07:11uni asia pacific region uh we have uni europa which is uni food for europe uh we have uni america
00:07:22um which is um which is both north america and latin america combined um and we have uni africa so
00:07:30they're the four key regions uh and there's um i guess a different footprint depending on the different industries
00:07:42and and um um what not but yes uni europa is very strong all of our regions are very strong in their
00:07:50different ways but it also does reflect kind of the the global trends around unionization i guess um where
00:07:58um asia and africa in particular are still kind of emerging in terms of uh their economies and the
00:08:08levels of unionization but they're probably the real uh beacons of hope because that's where we see a
00:08:15lot of a lot of growth and a lot of new energy coming from those regions as um as they've become
00:08:21more and more active and more and more unionized my guess and intuition is that europe is the strongest
00:08:28i imagine humanization on the planet but that's just my assumption or is it south america they are pretty
00:08:35left-leaning so i don't know you know who's winning i wanna hear it's us actually i don't know i don't
00:08:40care tell me maybe we are leaning maybe we are losing whatever you know lay it on me what is the truth
00:08:48yeah um i think traditionally in europe unionism is pretty strong um in terms of density i'm not
00:08:57sure how it works out in terms of actual numbers in in millions uh there definitely are some
00:09:04particular countries in latin america that are really shining examples and have long-held histories
00:09:12of strong unionization but probably generally speaking you're right like europe as a whole as
00:09:18a group is pretty is a pretty well unionized um country uh although statistics would probably
00:09:28show that union density in europe and particularly western europe is is not everywhere it's it's it's a
00:09:37disaster mainly mainly in post-communistic countries now it's it's it's going no that's that's that's
00:09:46why we are doing it to change the tide and and change the whole paradigm and and wake people up that
00:09:54unionization is pretty normal it's like breathing oxygen you know for for workers it's a essential part
00:10:02of their or should be essential part of their daily working lives it's just some people forgot about it that
00:10:10all that all the perks that we are experiencing they didn't fall from the sky but someone in the past had to
00:10:16fight for them right right and as we see in america they can quickly disappear these perks yeah
00:10:24yes yeah absolutely uh i think in many western economies or the like global north um people have become
00:10:36comfortable right and and as you said you know there's there's a disconnect between where those
00:10:42benefits and those good wages and conditions and high standards of living actually came from and so
00:10:48yes as a movement we do have work to do um to re-educate people and re-engage people in our movement
00:10:55um and i think that over the last few years in particular probably like covert and post covert um i think
00:11:03things are turning around and at the moment there's a um in some way things are dire with the with the
00:11:13rise of the right and the rise of fascism politically but day to day i also am seeing and feeling you know
00:11:23this increasing um turning back to unions and an increasing understanding of the relevance and the
00:11:29importance of unions particularly in that political context that that we're facing so i'm also kind of
00:11:36optimistic after mom danny won in new york and all the other wins that happened we were pretty
00:11:43spiked and so i was happy so i was writing about it so yeah it's hopefully you know as the tide
00:11:50changed and and better times are ahead of us and people will realize that they were kind of in a weird
00:11:57hibernation and kind of hope never changed anything you have to do something about your lives and and
00:12:03praying and hoping as a coping strategy is good but activity is better yeah yes yes indeed
00:12:13tell me how how you came to uni global what was your path how you actually how you cannot you know where
00:12:20you born being a unionist because your family has 17 generations into the past or unless you are
00:12:29unionist you go out of the house or something of the magnitude like certain families are destined to be
00:12:35whatever yeah so what was your path right so definitely um not from a family of generational unionists
00:12:45although my father um was a very progressive man he was involved in the labor party in australia as a
00:12:53member um so i guess i was raised with um a bit of an awareness and consciousness around social justice
00:13:02um and the importance of activism uh i remember he always used to tell me you know encourage me that
00:13:11a we should always stand up for what we believe in um but be um if everybody just said there's nothing
00:13:19i as a single person can do then absolutely nothing can be done but you know imagine if every person
00:13:24who thought that actually did something and together we're strong and powerful so um i was raised with
00:13:32that consciousness but i never really knew what a union was uh and until i was an adult and and working
00:13:44and uh i was working as an early childhood educator or in at at the time we were known as the child care
00:13:53sector in australia so early childhood education and care and also working in hospitality
00:13:59um and someone from the union came and spoke at our work one time but i wasn't there or i must
00:14:09have been on shift or something and i remember getting a flyer um an information pamphlet about
00:14:14a union and then that was it and then i didn't hear about a union again for years until i was at
00:14:20another workplace and a union organizer came to my workplace and explained to me this is what a union is
00:14:27we're trying to start collective bargaining here at this workplace uh and you know you should join
00:14:34the union and get involved and participate in the bargaining and i was like oh well great that's that
00:14:39sounds like it makes a lot of sense right um and so at that time i was working in a for-profit early
00:14:50childhood service and in australia we were getting paid the minimum wage um you know i i couldn't
00:15:00my colleagues and i couldn't afford things like at the time i couldn't afford a car um we certainly
00:15:07couldn't go to the bank to get a bank loan to to buy a house because the bank would say we don't earn
00:15:12enough money um and the guy who owned many of these centers all around australia was like a multi-millionaire
00:15:22he would turn up to meetings in a helicopter flown from his mansion on the gold coast and here we are
00:15:30the workers who are doing the work right educating these children supporting families and um making him
00:15:40these obscene profits we're getting paid minimum wage we didn't have permanent jobs like uh to have
00:15:46a permanent job in australia was like 38 hours and we would all just be on 37.5 hour contracts so that
00:15:53we were just under so that we wouldn't have the the rights associated not the usual capitalistic
00:15:59exploitation one-on-one i mean you you experience it firsthand obviously yeah yeah right um and so i was
00:16:07like yeah this is not fair we absolutely should be getting paid more for what we do um not only
00:16:14because he's making these obscene profits but because our work is really really important right
00:16:18like we were um helping to raise and care for and educate children in one of the most important
00:16:26stages of their life uh when so much brain development is happening and supporting the broader economy in
00:16:32australia so that parents could engage in the workforce and go to work and uh so that was how
00:16:38i got involved in the union in that collective bargaining and then we started a national campaign
00:16:43to try and improve the wages and conditions okay okay i will jump in so it was it was pretty quick
00:16:51awakening sort of it seems like you were you were sleeping for like 10 years totally uninvolved and then
00:16:58suddenly something clicked and here you are organizing pan austrian whatever it was okay wow
00:17:05um well i'll tell you what it was is that somebody asked me to join the union no one had ever given me
00:17:14the opportunity before no one had ever asked me to join the union no one had ever asked me to step
00:17:18up and take on leadership roles i didn't know how i didn't know that i could you know like i wouldn't
00:17:24have known where to start and so it is really that simple um i think many people out there still
00:17:31would love to join a union they're just not given the opportunity yet and they're not empowered or
00:17:35educated with the knowledge um and the support i will jump in an important question for australia
00:17:41or tasmania where you are originally from uh is uh the history of unions part of the curricula in
00:17:47schools or that's just a topic that is totally outside of the scope you know the names of all the
00:17:54kings and queens and whatnot but but the unions and how it came to be that workers have the rights
00:17:59they have that's just never mentioned in the school or i i do not remember ever hearing about okay
00:18:08in my schooling life in australia welcome to the real world i mean i think what i know most countries
00:18:14are educated or meet most people in uh developed world sort of yeah uh educated this way that unionization
00:18:22isn't mentioned at all in the school curricula even though it's one of the most important movement in
00:18:28mankind's history which is kind of well says you a lot or tells you a lot about capitalism and the way
00:18:35how schools should really function in capitalism not to teach them the you know the stuff they can
00:18:41crumble the illusion that that all this is kind of working you know okay good to know and so so from
00:18:50there from the first touch with the unions you got involved and what happened next uh i became an activist
00:18:59and a delegate and then i became an um an organizer or a member of staff with the union after a couple of
00:19:06years uh and then before i knew it i was the secretary of our branch in tasmania um i i served as secretary for
00:19:15two terms and then our union uh with another union in australia we formed a brand new kind of super
00:19:23union i guess um and so my role then changed and i was given the role assigned the role as the national
00:19:34director of farms campaigning so working with uh working to organize farm workers in australia
00:19:42and all of them or just a region because australia is almost as big as europe so as as jobs
00:19:49responsibilities go it's a pretty heavy task okay this was a national role this was a national role
00:19:57so we were working on organizing workers so you were flying in that helicopter
00:20:03i was i was no no no i was not flying in any helicopters but um i did have to do a bit of travel
00:20:08yes and uh it was an absolute honor and a privilege and um in that sector in australia there's many many
00:20:16migrant workers it's predominantly work done by migrant workers in australia and so that was a really new
00:20:24and interesting eye-opener for me uh starting to to learn more about international solidarity and developing
00:20:33relationships with unions in the countries that many of these workers were coming from uh and also working
00:20:41with farm workers who some of whom are probably you know the the most vulnerable workers in the country
00:20:50talking about the precariat in uh in the in the industry where you were working and that that kind of
00:20:58made you even more aware that this is not okay because they cannot make all our food and you know
00:21:05without them we will be starving so again very essential workers um predominantly migrant workers being severely
00:21:15exploited um and it really it was just a really important part of the organizing was being able to
00:21:23to build the international solidarity and that's that's what really raised my awareness about
00:21:29things like the global union federations and i started to pay more attention to our union's affiliation
00:21:36with uni global um and uh and i thought oh this you know that sort of work sounds really cool and
00:21:43really interesting and and an opportunity uh came up with uni global and and i applied and so here i am
00:21:50um and it's nice to be back working in the care sector which is i guess you know where i started my
00:21:58career and uh where many um members in my former union are from the care sector as well so it's nice to
00:22:07be back here um but doing that sort of work at a global level how is actually set up uni global so you have
00:22:14the headquarters in in switzerland in genv as far as i know are there multiple subsidiaries multiple
00:22:21canal sub headquarters or how to call it or is it just one headquarter and from there the whole globe
00:22:27is kind of organized we have our global headquarters here in in switzerland and then each of the regions
00:22:37have uh at least one regional office as well so there's the uni europa in belgium uh uni africa has
00:22:46an office in the south and an office in in the north of the continent uh the uni apro office is based in
00:22:55singapore and then the uni americas uh there's an office in in uruguay okay okay cool and well what what is
00:23:04your day-to-day job so to imagine to people to imagine what is actually you know who organizing
00:23:10the whole world kind of yeah what does it mean you know can you please explain it a little bit sure um
00:23:18it varies a little bit so depending on the particular unions um sometimes it might be the regional
00:23:28officers that are working directly with particular affiliate unions um and other times it's us here
00:23:37in the national office working either with the regional staff or directly with unions in various
00:23:43places so over the past couple of years that i've been with uni um my personal
00:23:51uh patch i guess or the most of my time has been spent working with care unions in eastern europe in south
00:24:02asia and uh in in west africa um but uh also working to support um uh and build relationships with
00:24:17unions back in australia and new zealand where i come from and bits and pieces at a global level as
00:24:23well and then working uh around research and advocacy and policy uh in those global institutions
00:24:34that i mentioned like the ilo and and that kind of thing um day to day the majority of my time though
00:24:41is spent working with those affiliates um and the regions to build organizing and campaigning
00:24:49skills and capacity and strategy so that they can effectively organize and fight and win on the
00:24:56ground where they are so i'll do a lot of that remotely and then from time to time i also have the
00:25:05privilege of being able to go to some of those countries and and working with those unions directly to
00:25:10to deliver training um to do strategic planning together and that sort of thing so that's how
00:25:18we met yeah so that's that's destiny okay and uh well from from your experiences what you so far
00:25:27experienced you know tell us a little bit you know what's really going on yeah because you have the
00:25:34fingers in all the wounds of of capitalism sort of or imposed wounds of uh that capitalism is imposing
00:25:42on the healthcare workers and industry and because you are focusing on africa or parts of africa and
00:25:48also asia i can imagine that what you have seen and what you've experienced isn't only roses and
00:25:55butterflies all the time so you know describe a little bit what's going on in on this planet at least
00:26:01in the patch that you are responsible for yeah uh it absolutely isn't all roses and butterflies um
00:26:10but it is inspiring right i think what i've seen in my in my travels and discussions with other unions
00:26:19is just the reality of the challenges that workers face on a day-to-day basis so i think there's
00:26:27there's common issues that that are uniting all workers particularly across the health and care
00:26:34sector in terms of respect and recognition for the work they do um like it doesn't matter you know
00:26:41western europe eastern europe asia africa the americas like we consistently hear wages and conditions
00:26:49are not good respect and recognition is is not there um violence and harassment in the sector
00:26:54uh you know is a ever-increasing problem um and the the forces of capitalism and the forces of union
00:27:03busting um but i think the the extent of the challenges or the oppression uh that people are facing varies in
00:27:17in different countries and in different countries and i think when we uh in some places where we
00:27:24where we see the trend in unionization going down like across europe and and kind of um back home in australia
00:27:30although i understand it's recently turned around in the last couple of years we're seeing the numbers go back up
00:27:35uh but there's been a real kind of apathy i think is the word where workers are like oh you know um
00:27:46there's no point we can't do anything um it's too hard to organize this group of workers or it's too
00:27:52hard to fight back against this government um uh and
00:27:58and what i see from going to some of these other places like working with lady health workers in
00:28:06pakistan hearing about stories coming out of colombia and and the philippines uh where people are
00:28:15persecuted and their lives are actually at threat because they are trying to organize a union
00:28:21um that that nothing is impossible and that there's there's workers out there who are
00:28:33fighting literally for their lives to to establish a union um and like in pakistan women
00:28:43lady health workers as they're referred to uh in pretty oppressive um conditions and and politics and um
00:28:57you know a culture that is not particularly supportive of women's rights seeing these groups of women
00:29:04a organize the union and then b take to the streets to um to to take action to go
00:29:12and strike to fight against the government and actually be able to win um that's the kind of
00:29:17thing that is inspiring me and i think you know these are the kinds of stories that we were talking about
00:29:24um when when we met you know when some workers are saying oh but it's so hard it's like
00:29:30i understand that it feels hard everything is relative yeah right it's possible like look at this
00:29:37you know look what's happening here um if there is a will there there's a way and we can overcome
00:29:44whatever challenges we're facing in terms of organizing and building our unions from everything
00:29:50you experienced in your career what would you say is it about strong individual who kind of raises to
00:29:57the occasion or is it you know like i don't know what it is but tell me you know how how come that
00:30:05somehow has the balls and the audacity to risk their lives for unionization you know how do you explain it to
00:30:14yourself i mean what are the stories how come that someone cannot even dares to dream yeah um i think it's when
00:30:27when when when people get to the point where they
00:30:35understand is it like a desperation turned into anger or or what is it you know because i i i understand on
00:30:42one hand this apathy but also i understand the courage but still i'm flabbergasted that someone who's
00:30:51willing to literally sacrifice his or her life and livelihood and health and whatnot for organizing
00:31:00yeah i think it's a combination i mean from time to time you have some of those stellar
00:31:08leaders who are just so charismatic and so committed to the cause um and they they stand as a shining
00:31:15light but ultimately at the end of the day they can't do it and without the the collective um and without
00:31:25the strength and safety that unionism that that collective power and um people doing something together
00:31:34that in numbers gives them um and i think that's ultimately what it is right like yes people
00:31:45absolutely people need to to feel angry and then they need to channel that anger into something but
00:31:52what they need is ultimately is to understand the vision um and understand how union power and collective
00:32:02power works and they have to feel that solidarity and that strength and safety with their comrades and
00:32:13with their colleagues um and when they do that then they feel they feel powerful and they feel unstoppable
00:32:22right and then that's when like something clicks and they go you know what like yeah it's not just me
00:32:28and together we actually are powerful and we can do something about this it's a moment of awakening i
00:32:34imagine us they are sleeping and suddenly they are awake experience is uh what what were the you know
00:32:42most encouraging and positive but also the well least encouraging and positive things that you
00:32:49encountered so share with us some stories you know share with us you don't have to be very specific
00:32:54about countries and and and and places if you don't if you can't if you don't want to but just know
00:33:01what's really going on on this blue planet called earth what you experienced in your day-to-day job
00:33:08because i imagine that you have experienced a lot yeah oh that's a hard question um well the first part is
00:33:20easy i think in terms of uh what are the good things and i think and for me in terms of union organizing even
00:33:32even the bad things or the the challenges are good things right because we can we can learn from them
00:33:37um and we can still be inspired by them uh i think in terms of what's going on in in the world of work and the
00:33:48challenges that workers are facing or the exploitation um that workers are experiencing
00:33:58uh it's across the board i mean the proof is there in terms of the the growing inequality
00:34:04and i think like this week elon musk is now the world's first trillionaire like um
00:34:11um this tiny tiny portion what is it like six white men having uh whatever percentage of the world's
00:34:21wealth and the rest of us just trying to share in the crumbs um if if that in itself is not uh inspiration for
00:34:33for for workers to wake up and start to do something um it's like it's irrefutable evidence right that
00:34:42that workers across the board are being exploited a certain group of people are getting richer and
00:34:48richer because of our work um and we're not enjoying the spoils of that we're feeling that every day
00:34:53um but then there are more um specific examples and stories right from the the millions of health and
00:35:07care workers like i was when i was working in early childhood um who are you know we're getting by but
00:35:14everyday life is a struggle and these you know workers who are uh we're not destitute but we're having
00:35:21they're having to make decisions week by week like uh you know is this care worker going to buy
00:35:33herself a new pair of shoes that doesn't have holes in it or is she going to put food on the table for
00:35:40her kids um uh you know is is this care worker going to be able to feed her whole family including herself
00:35:51or is she going to have to skip a meal again just so that her kids can eat right like these are
00:36:00care workers with respectable important essential jobs working full-time um and they're having to
00:36:09make these sorts of decisions every day you know can i put fuel in my car this week to actually get to
00:36:14work um can i buy fresh fruit and vegetables for my children these are the sorts of the stories that
00:36:21we are hearing from from health and care workers every single day uh and then we go i guess to the
00:36:30more extreme cases where we hear about migrant care workers being exploited and and this is very similar to
00:36:39my experience with farm workers uh where it's it's akin to to modern slavery right these migrant workers
00:36:48come in the boss um or the contractor will take their passports will hold their passports uh and then
00:36:57they have all sorts of threats made to them you know um if you don't do this or you don't agree to that or
00:37:03um you don't work for this little amount of money then a you don't have a passport b like your visa will
00:37:13get cancelled will dog you into the government this that and the other uh many ways to to further
00:37:21exploit these types of workers um and in australia in the farm worker organizing
00:37:29we regularly came across undocumented migrant workers right uh workers who had been in australia for
00:37:39many many years doing this essential work of feeding the country but who for various reasons didn't have
00:37:49or no longer had um a valid visa or a work permit to be working in australia or to to be in australia
00:38:00and that left them really really vulnerable to employers exploiting them and threatening to
00:38:08expose them and being able to to take advantage of those vulnerable situations
00:38:14and we would hear so often that well you know why are you trying to organize these workers they're
00:38:21migrant workers um they're undocumented why do you care and they will never join the union because they're
00:38:27too scared um or because they're too this or you know that people are uh ready to make excuses for these
00:38:35workers but actually once we engage with these workers and talk to workers uh including undocumented
00:38:42migrant workers educated them about their rights educated them about um how unionism works and how
00:38:52collective power works and how we would have strength and safety in numbers and how they would have the
00:39:01solidarity of the solidarity of the other members of the union when they were given the choice and given the
00:39:06opportunity most of these workers would be absolute you know yes like how do i join sign me up
00:39:12yeah yeah what do i have to lose i don't have my passport anyway so you know i can only gain no
00:39:23yeah um and uh when they understand that they do have a choice and that they can have some power and
00:39:31start to take back control of their own life by joining a union and by having the solidarity of their
00:39:40comrades in a union that is a really really special and empowering thing um and it changed so many
00:39:48lives and i still get goosebumps thinking about it right because uh it's easy to underestimate the power
00:39:56of union and the power of unionism but the way it absolutely changes lives in a really profound way
00:40:04is incredibly special and when workers are given the education and given the choice to take back
00:40:14control of their working life and their life more generally um they will step into it and i think as
00:40:20unionists we need to not make excuses for it and not not think oh they won't care or um you know they're
00:40:28just too apathetic actually we just need to get out there and try um and give people the choice and
00:40:35usually they'll take it more often than not they'll take it cool let's change gears a little bit
00:40:41and talk more about post-communistic europe because that's one of the areas of your expertise and
00:40:47it now let's bring it a little bit more home to where we are or where i am uh uh maybe a tricky
00:40:56question and you will not know the answer but i i have to ask it anyway because that's the in my
00:41:01opinion at least that's the biggest obstacle to unionization in uh not only slovakia but czech republic
00:41:09and multiple other countries as well it's the setup and it's the structure of the union it's the systemic
00:41:15uh setup of the unionization because what we are struggling in compared with western european
00:41:21countries is also part of the question i'm about to ask is that uh in uh western european countries
00:41:28when you pay your membership fee everything goes to the head union so whether it's verdi in germany
00:41:34or ig metal in germany or gpa here in austria or wherever but in post-communistic countries i'm not an
00:41:41expert and that's part of the question uh definitely in slovakia and czech republic only roughly 30 percent
00:41:49three zero goes to the kind of mother and 70 percent states on the on the factory floor sort of or
00:41:57wherever the union is active so it leads to a huge divide in the in the funds because well when 70 percent
00:42:06of the funds are staying somewhere where they have nothing to do basically you know so that means that
00:42:12the union the the mother is extremely underfunded and i can just give you an example and and and
00:42:20what's going on in slovakia so even though we have only 8.8 percentage points of uh unionization
00:42:27even with that miserable numbers compared to the best country on the planet which is as far as i know
00:42:32iceland with 92 yeah so definitely totally the opposite of us mirror opposite combined together
00:42:40you can make 100 right yeah something like that let's marry if only uh so with this meager 8.8 it's
00:42:51still 25 million euros roughly so if the union in slovakia really had 25 million euros centralized well
00:43:00for 25 million euros a year you can make some some shebang and some well what not yeah but because
00:43:08it's so divided well not much is going on and it's it started at 60 percent for 30 years ago roughly six
00:43:16zero and now it's under 10 and the question is how normal is it and what are the people saying in
00:43:25uni global about this whole weird setup we cannot have in post-communistic countries a is it normal uh
00:43:34do you agree with it and b is it only czech republicans slovakia as far as i as you know or is this totally
00:43:41pan post-communistic countries phenomena of i don't know 15 countries or 12 countries or whatever it are
00:43:47that everywhere this setup kind of emerged after the breakup of communism and well the consequences are
00:43:56here alive and kicking and everywhere it's below 10 percent basically um
00:44:06so i'm speaking from personal experience here and i'm not trying to present um a particular uniglobal
00:44:13this is janet talking yeah um uh i think it in in the post-communist kind of eastern europe it's
00:44:29not uncommon um i think the the percentage varies from country to country um but it seems to be
00:44:37like relatively a pretty common way of doing things um in my based on my experience i think it could be
00:44:57and and based on just like the the core concept around union and the idea of pooling our resources
00:45:07and um and um and the idea of economies of scale like it makes more sense to me that more of that money
00:45:17would be pulled into into the mother as you say it um for uh to help with the broader running of campaigns
00:45:28and to ensure that funds are being um um utilized you know strategically and uh and for organizing
00:45:39um
00:45:42do i think it can change and you know like just because that's the way it is now doesn't mean that's
00:45:46the way it has to be forever no definitely it can't be i mean we we are just as race to the
00:45:53bottoms go we are pretty successful but maybe this shouldn't be our aspiration to totally destroy
00:45:59ourselves unions wise because you know 60 and less than 10 that's that's the result of this setup and
00:46:07not only in slovakia but everywhere you look this is the reason yeah i think there's probably other
00:46:13factors at play as well no definitely that definitely i'm discussing that i'm just saying that in my mind
00:46:19this is the main reason why why it's not working because well when you don't have the money when
00:46:24you can't pay people when you can't organize anything then well you can be as good as as it gets
00:46:30you can be jesus 2.0 but you know when no one knows about you because you can't run any ads because you don't
00:46:37have the funds or whatever you can go visit people because you don't spend your own money to go somewhere i
00:46:43mean you can do it once or twice a year but not every week no then you know how can it be done
00:46:51yeah yeah uh i i think there's like there's kind of two probably two options right either
00:47:02unions make this decision to collectively pull more money up into the mother so that
00:47:07people can be employed to do those things or there's some other sort of transformation where
00:47:13the people um in the union branches take greater responsibility for the organizing work
00:47:21um which is more realistic which is more likely to happen um but but you're right like either way
00:47:28you know the status quo can't remain because you know it can but but we all see the result of that big
00:47:38big fat zero exactly exactly and fascist anteportas yeah that's that's what's happening so
00:47:46yeah and uh the question was is it the case everywhere in uh post-communistic europe as far as i
00:47:53you know or is there any exception to this rule i mean what i know is that uh slovenia is doing pretty
00:48:00well of her job they are at 80 percent of collective bargaining maybe even above 80 percent so obviously
00:48:09they do something differently is it this uh i i don't know that's why i'm asking yeah i don't think i can
00:48:17answer that question either um i don't know exactly that you know the depths of everything that is
00:48:23leading to success um in slovenia but what i can say is that there are there's some great examples of um
00:48:36unions across eastern europe turning things around and starting to embrace
00:48:44true organizing and the concept of um you know more national campaigns and and paid organizers
00:48:52and that delivering results and and being successful examples where was that successful
00:48:59uh i i i have been working with um unions in particular in hungary and croatia a couple of care
00:49:09unions in those countries where it's really really exciting to see what they are achieving i think in
00:49:18hungary in particular given um the political situation there it's it's even more exciting for me to see
00:49:29new union branches being formed regularly um and the way that they are embracing organizing and now
00:49:41looking towards being able to self-fund organizers um and uh i guess start to reorganize the way their union
00:49:51is structured and their unions are run so that they can be more effective um and do the sorts of things that
00:49:58that that we have been talking about so so sorry to jump in so they embrace this hundred percent
00:50:05model from western europe or what are you saying this is this is the new
00:50:10normal for them i think they're they're on a journey right they're starting to embrace the journey and i
00:50:17think you can't you can't just go okay like all of a sudden now we're going to not do this in any way
00:50:22at all um and you know totally restructure our unions to be the way they are in western europe
00:50:30you just you just that's that's my ambition or that's my daydream that you just start from a
00:50:36scratch in a green field and you do it properly the way it's supposed to be so hundred percent
00:50:42mother gets all and you just organize it the way it's organized that's the question also was it the case
00:50:49with this hundred percent to the mother from the beginning of unionization or is the western
00:50:55european model kind of like a outlier and and in americas it was done differently i'm not big on
00:51:01on the unionization history because in my guts i'm i guess it was the model from the beginning that you
00:51:07give to your mother everything mother is strong and then mother can organize the the companies wherever
00:51:14uh you are positioned and situated and i think if you were starting a brand new union you could
00:51:22set it up however you want right um but if you're talking about trying to
00:51:31get existing unions to change and to evolve i think we need to meet people where they're at and bring
00:51:40them on a journey with us and so it would be pretty hard pretty difficult to just go okay like we're
00:51:45gonna um blow up everything that you that you know already now we don't have to blow it up that's
00:51:52what i'm saying i'm saying let's start somewhere where it's not occupied 8.8 that means like
00:51:58almost nowhere is a union and let's start to do it properly that's my kind of opinion no because
00:52:05this old model showed itself not to be working because if it were only in slovakia okay we maybe
00:52:11we are just unlucky but when it's the case more or less everywhere then obviously this is a systemic
00:52:17failure and you know continue to do the same thing and expect different results a sign of craziness and
00:52:25insanity as they say so maybe we should change the approach and realize that what we are doing so
00:52:32far just isn't working similar situation with uh let's say green transition now we were married to
00:52:39fossil fuels for god knows how long and now we in the last decades realize maybe not the best marriage
00:52:46of convenience in the history of mankind hey let's change the mistresses and and go green no so yeah human
00:52:55beings are able to learn and realize that they made a mistake that's just i mean we should be able to
00:53:01learn and realize that this was a mistake i mean maybe i'm naive anyways so what i wanted to discuss
00:53:09also is uh the the situation in europe as you see it now because what is kind of maybe i don't know i
00:53:17will ask the question and tell me what you think last week in vienna we had uh we had uh a meeting of the
00:53:27left party so the the fraction in european parliament the left fraction so the radical leftists so we had
00:53:34a meeting here so i was the only slowak in that uh in that meeting we were like 120 people from all
00:53:40around europe from that bracket of of the less left parties and whatnot and i don't know whether you know
00:53:48that the uh that had there happened a split between the left and the alliance was uh created in the
00:53:56european left i don't know let's let's call it sky or what yeah so the scandinavian uh uh parties left the
00:54:06the the podemos in spain left and and in france uh melanchon and france answer me they left and they
00:54:14and maybe i forgot someone they created this alliance and now the question is okay i can't
00:54:19ask for you as a uni europa or uni global but what is janet thinking about this situation because this is
00:54:27a huge huge thing in european unionization as well because these are your direct allies
00:54:34on the political spectrum and well it happens you know are you reflecting on that are you talking with
00:54:43people around uh your offices around that what it means what's the future where to go what to do
00:54:51what to think because first when i was there i mean when it happened i was like what the how can you
00:54:57split now the situation is as dire as has it ever been or maybe okay it was worse with hitler but by
00:55:04the way we are not far off yeah and you do this but then what i realized when i was there last weekend is
00:55:11that maybe they just did the only rational thing and that is when something isn't
00:55:19repaired or repairable or how to put it you just have to let it go and start anew because after i don't
00:55:27know how many tries you just realize that well as as as life goes this is not to be repaired and we have to
00:55:36start anew because otherwise we all go down yeah but that's just my take that's that's the question
00:55:43for you and for what uni global if you can talk about it what's the strategy there because this is
00:55:50a huge change in european politics and in lefty circles and well yeah look it's certainly not um a
00:55:58conversation i've been involved in within uni internally um but it's a really interesting
00:56:08time isn't it and i think my my personal thoughts or reflections uh well i don't have an answer but i just
00:56:18have thoughts um and i've been reflecting the last couple of weeks actually on just
00:56:25i feel like everywhere i turn at the moment there's um so much is contested uh there's so much fighting
00:56:37against each other and i feel like for a long time for the left this has been a weakness of ours that we
00:56:50haven't been able to to truly unify and exercise solidarity as a left um and i think comparatively
00:57:01the right and the far right have actually been really good at that um and even if they
00:57:09we all see the results they are they are they're good at that they are they are like they are miraculously
00:57:15good at that yeah yeah um and sometimes on the left we can let perfect get in the way of good
00:57:29um you know and uh we can be very purist about ideology um as opposed to
00:57:40doing what needs to be done to to stop the march of the right um because i think you know
00:57:53and i guess that's the debate like does that need to happen first or do we you know i think there's
00:58:00portions of the left that think we we need to go so far to the left there just needs to be a complete
00:58:04revolution um do i think a complete revolution is realistic personally i'm probably more in the
00:58:16moderate camp um but i think there's definitely a role for a left flank right and we need like there
00:58:25needs to be there can be a purpose to the left flank but the left flank and and the more moderate
00:58:34left still need to find a way to communicate and coordinate together um in order to succeed
00:58:41so my take from the experience when i was there is that i mean this is just my i don't know but my
00:58:48kind of gut feeling is that as i as i said that after years of trying they just gave up because they've
00:58:54seen that it's not possible and what is the problem of the european left is the baggage of the past of
00:59:01communism and for very peculiar reasons the left the party yeah is kind of married to communists for
00:59:11reasons i don't understand you know the head of the party is a communist from austria and most of the
00:59:17parties in the under the the left umbrella are communist parties maybe not most but many definitely
00:59:24like too many for my taste and that's the problem because when you have a legacy of everything then
00:59:31communism did in the last century and you kind of can't i don't know cope with the legacy and kind of
00:59:40move forward and you are still stuck in modus operandi of 19th century and what marx would say
00:59:49in the 21st century not not against marx but you know like 21st century he can't even comprehend
00:59:56what's going on in his book so you know it's kind of useless to use marx nowadays you know and what
01:00:04i've seen there and what i kind of getting from from that from the vibe is that they are too
01:00:09too too embracing the past and they are not looking forward enough because the world isn't 19th century
01:00:19anymore and yeah and as an example uh what what i what i what the lefties are always discussing maybe
01:00:28that's the case in uni global as well is the social landscape in europe and in other countries i mean
01:00:34you know more or less everywhere the oligarchy is ruling the tides and and uh the oligarchic media
01:00:42and facebook and youtube and whatnot instagram tiktok you name it uh kind of dominating in the media
01:00:50sphere when it's not social media then it's some big oligarchic uh houses media houses who are dominating
01:00:57the narrative so you know we can't really exist under that umbrella i mean we can exist but we will
01:01:05not be thriving we can be just surviving so we have to create something of our own that's my opinion
01:01:11yeah and this is kind of similar i hope i guess it was a similar approach what these uh people or
01:01:21parties from the alliance took that they realized that just okay as a survival strategy okay-ish but not
01:01:29as a thriving strategy and if you're planning to win then you have to be well bold on multiple fronts and
01:01:37when it's just not possible in this setup then you use it you embrace it and then you move on yeah
01:01:44what is there to do yeah but that's me tell me what you think uh i i i don't know enough about it to be
01:01:53honest um i've only been living in europe for for two years so i feel like okay okay okay yeah okay so
01:02:04janet and her plans what is on the horizon you know what what are the tasks what are the projects what
01:02:10is what is happening what is what the future holds for you what what obviously not 77 so you have your
01:02:18whole life ahead of you so where should it lead yeah i mean ideally not working until 77 um but no it depends
01:02:29whether it's whether it's work or something you laugh now well then you can do it till 90 chomsky is
01:02:34doing interviews with 94 and i don't think that he's you know kind of not enjoying it so yeah no that's
01:02:41very true um and uh most days i feel like i could do this forever right um so for me i i want to keep
01:02:51doing what i'm doing um i'm learning so much in this role and um through living in this part of the
01:03:00world for the first time i want to continue on that journey and i want to continue on this trajectory that
01:03:08we're on at uni care where um our our unions our affiliates are growing uni care is growing um we are
01:03:18are having an impact out there um to really empower and support and organize health and care workers to
01:03:29improve their sector and improve their lives uh in work and outside of work as well uh and i want to be
01:03:41able to keep working with you know some of the fabulous unions um that i've had the the honor and
01:03:50the privilege to meet and engage with over the past uh couple of years since i've started doing this
01:03:57work to see them become sustainable um and to be able to then you know move on and help the the next
01:04:06emerging uh union uh union to really embrace organizing um and become sustainable so that
01:04:17they you know they can effectively um represent their workers and their members as well and then
01:04:25and help the next person thank you janet well all the power to you hugs and kisses and all the positive
01:04:33energy from vienna to to to to switzerland and continue on this wonderful path of yours and sky is the limit you
01:04:42know i i i was on the uh i was on the kind of strike or it was a uh memorial libya after 50 years of the strike
01:04:54kind of the icelandic woman it was the 50th anniversary just two weeks ago so you know there
01:05:01is definitely room for improvement the icelandic woman showed us how it's done 90 participation
01:05:08that's did it ever ever happen in unionization history that union had a strike with 90 national
01:05:16strike with 90 participation of people who were you know touched by that particular struggle
01:05:24i was like full 90 that's impressive it's incredible isn't it um and you know the future is female
01:05:33no strong female definitely rule the future so yeah yeah take a leg stay healthy and see you later
01:05:42yeah thank you thank you bye ciao okay
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