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00:00Thank you so much for joining us today. Jennifer, great to be with you and great to be in Johannesburg
00:04on an almost sunny day. Almost, we almost got there. John, let's just speak about the current
00:10environment. There's been quite a bit of uncertainty across 2025. How would you assess
00:15trade and how trade has filtered into the B20 discussion here? Well, a couple of things. First
00:19of all, trade continues. I mean, let's not muck around. It's just that it's not moving at the
00:23pace that we need to ensure global growth. I mean, that is just the truth. Previously,
00:28in order to really enable global growth, you see trade rising at a higher level than global GDP,
00:35and that's actually an important vector for pushing it forward. That's suppressed. It's
00:39suppressed for a bunch of reasons. Clearly, one of them is the confusion over the tariff regime
00:43that's emerging. But the big issue that is really confusing everyone is just the uncertainty about
00:48what happens next, and that's actually having a chilling effect on activity. So we're just not
00:53getting enough economic activity at the moment in the global economy, and that's not just an
00:58advanced economies. That's also developing emerging economies. I mean, we're in 170 economies. We
01:04represent more than 50 million businesses, and 70% of us are in the global south. And I can tell you
01:09the same issue of uncertainty comes out of Africa and is described in Latin America, is described in
01:15Asia Pacific, and in Europe, and in the Americas. So this uncertainty is actually really weighing on
01:21economic activity. So what is needed then for the pickup for the turnaround? Well, I think
01:27understanding the importance of prioritizing the growth that can come from trade and actually getting
01:32some movement here. There's things that governments can just do, and that's something that we've been
01:37pointing out. Let's face it, the U.S. accounts for only 13% of global trade. So there's 87% which is out
01:45there. What we've been telling governments to do is get on board with us and actually let's work on
01:50principles to ensure that we actually increase economic activity, not in two years time, but now
01:55there's things that can be done. There are things that can be done in Africa about enabling the
01:59operation of the African continental free trade area. I think everyone knows the potential, but let's
02:04stop talking about the potential and actually let's translate that into actions now. Let's actually
02:09work to digitize the customs around borders to actually make it easy to get goods. That's called
02:13increasing economic activity. And that's actually a low political risk challenge. It's just that it
02:18needs to be raised up the priority list. Are you seeing willing engagement then from the public
02:23sector that you're speaking with? Well, I think the critical issue here is not so much the public
02:27sector's engagement, it's the political ambition now. Governments actually have to issue clear signals
02:33to their bureaucrats to get on and do this that it actually is an important priority because otherwise it
02:38just gets lost. And so these sorts of things need to be activated. And frankly, one of the good
02:43things about the B20 this year in South Africa, and frankly, I know there's challenges at the G20
02:49stream, which is obviously concerning everyone, has a lot of public attention. But the B20, which
02:55knits together the business communities from the 20 economies, is actually functioning seamlessly.
03:01And what the B20 is doing and what I've been part of is coming up with actionable projects to come
03:06out of this Johannesburg period, the South African period, and actually get on with enabling SMEs and
03:12business to increase economic activity. And we're doing that now. Are you concerned, though, that
03:16that may not filter into 2026 when the U.S. takes over the presidency? Not at all. I mean, look, if
03:23there's one thing that unites, I think the G20, even with or without formal or physical presentation
03:29of the U.S., is the need to focus on economic growth. And you can't have economic growth without
03:34economic activity. You can't have economic activity without getting the private sector moving. So I think
03:39that's a unifying theme that will flow through. The U.S. will have different priorities, but that's
03:44perfectly appropriate. Have you talked to them about any of those priorities? Yeah, yeah. I've spoken in
03:49Washington about they're looking at trying to understand better what are the kind of priorities
03:53that can really help drive economic opportunity and growth. Absolutely. They're looking at really,
03:58I think, paring back to make certain there's real focus on the drivers of economic growth. And these are
04:02positive things. We were just speaking about you just came from COP. Now you're at the G20.
04:08You make me sound like a summit tourist. I mean, you sound like you're working quite
04:13a bit, though. That's right. But I wanted to ask about really your take on multilateralism
04:18and the state of multilateralism right now, because we didn't get an official communique
04:22there. The U.S. is threatening South Africa about releasing one here at the G20. Does there
04:28need to be more effective multilateralism in order to stimulate economic, global economic growth?
04:34Or do you think they can maybe exist independently? Well, I think we need to have effective
04:39multilateralism. And that's one of the challenges. And part of the effectiveness is that we don't
04:43need any more institutions. We just need a number of the institutions that actually kind of anchor the
04:48multilateral system to actually be functioning properly. Like what? And that means they actually
04:53need to be forward looking and actually have a plan for action. I mean, the problem with the system
04:57is it's too slow, it's too siloed, and it's undercapitalised to deliver. So we actually need
05:04to rethink all that. And frankly, there's some leadership issues about how you shift from one
05:09paradigm to the paradigm we've moved into now. The system can only function if it's agile and actually
05:15is capable of adapting. And part of the adaptation is to actually bring stakeholders into the system,
05:20make it much more inclusive. And that includes bringing the private sector in. And that's a point
05:24we've been making. One of the challenges with the summits is actually they're really all driven by
05:29government officials. Of course, the private sector has a genuine interest because we're the ones being
05:35asked to deliver. We need to be in the room. I think you'll see a much more successful set of
05:39outcomes if the private sector was in the room. What's the risk you would say going into 2026 for
05:44some of this progress? Oh, I think the failure to recognise that the paradigm has shifted and to shift
05:50those institutions to align with that. There is no doubt about it. But that doesn't mean that
05:54there's unanimity in the world. That just means that those who can should. And we should actually
05:59get coalitions of like we call a plural lateralism or we call a pathfinder approaches. We need governments
06:05to actually come together and with business and with civil society and move forward where they can.
06:10Action is actually really important here. And institutions, you mean the IMF, the UN,
06:15the World Bank. What exactly? Oh, well, we're talking about the way in which the system operates. So it's got a number
06:21of complex parts. So it's got the United Nations as an entity which operates within it. The United
06:26Nations itself is challenged. And as I said, part of the challenge of the United, it doesn't respond
06:30well to crises, for God's sake. I mean, the reality is it's just too slow. Crises don't wait. So we need
06:35to make that much more agile. And part of that is bringing in voices like the private sector to support
06:39that. The IMF and the World Bank and other entities, I think one of the realities here is that in order to have
06:45continued legitimacy and inclusiveness, they need to reflect the global economy as it is now. I mean,
06:51a lot of the governance models for those entities were actually developed in the post-Second World
06:55War period. So we now need to reflect that. By the way, ICC, we're in, as I said, 170 countries.
07:01We're a functioning multilateral organisation, certainly a private one. But we actually have
07:06rebalanced the reality of our governance to reflect the global world. 70% in the global south. We have a
07:12board now, which comprises a much more significant contribution from Africa than it did when it was
07:17set up. Because we need to continue to change. We need to be agile. And do you expect that to
07:22continue to grow, the ICC? Absolutely. Absolutely. Because what we're also finding is that, well,
07:28the ICC was founded on the basis that where governments can't act, the private sector should
07:31step up. So we're an institution capable of creating rules, which are non-binding, but
07:37convoluntary rules and codes that people follow. We now enable $17.5 trillion worth of
07:42economic activity every year. That's bigger than the GDP of China, by the way. So the reason
07:48that's important is that we're not an observer. We're an actual player because we create and
07:53enable economic activity. And more and more economies, the private sectors want to be part
07:58of the ICC because it's also a big signifier that those economies are ready for investment.
08:03Anywhere you're looking at next, expanding?
08:05Oh, well, we have a number of plans for Africa. One of the reasons I've been very pleased to spend
08:09a lot of time in Africa during the G20 cycle is that it's enabled us to really see where
08:14the value is that we can create. So we're launching a project today as a legacy for the B20 called
08:20Trade Routes, which will actually bring together. We already have four centres of entrepreneurship
08:24operating in Africa. We'll actually source this now out of South Africa and create an enabling
08:30environment for the African continental free trade area to actually deliver results on the ground
08:35for SMEs. So we're actually going to bring the capability and the training and actually
08:39access to finance and actually help SMEs move their way through. And that's a great opportunity
08:44for us.
08:45John Denton, thanks for joining us.
08:47Great to be with you.
08:48Nice to speak with you.
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