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00:00Regarding the future alliance, our aspirations and missions, you know them perfectly well.
00:07We have some desire in our country, and in addition to this, we have a war in the East.
00:11Yes, we would like to join NATO, and it will protect our integrity.
00:18President Zelensky of Ukraine there and the German Chancellor Olaf Scholz holding a press conference after two hours of good talks,
00:26and I'm quoting the German Chancellor there, a whole range of F issues discussed.
00:31I think President Zelensky's line, which was, we share vision, the vision of a peaceful settlement of the conflict,
00:37pointing out, too, that the German Chancellor will go to Moscow tomorrow to meet Vladimir Putin
00:41and will present a common position of the EU and not just Germany's side.
00:46Interesting qualification, I think, coming from President Zelensky and the German Chancellor on NATO as well.
00:53He said, look, it remains part of their future ambitions in case there was any confusion after the weekend's comments
00:58from the Ukrainian ambassador to the UK, but it's not the absolute goal.
01:03And the German Chancellor then said, look, it's not really an issue now,
01:07and it's strange that the Russians keep pointing to the issue of NATO membership as being a prevalent issue today,
01:13which I thought was quite interesting.
01:14Also reiterating support that they remain closely aligned to Ukraine
01:18and have provided $2 billion worth of support since 2014, and that support will continue.
01:25Pressed also on what happens if we do see further escalation.
01:30We expect to see closer steps towards de-escalation from Russia
01:33and that the German Chancellor will reiterate that with President Putin tomorrow.
01:36He was pushed in the Q&A.
01:38What happens if we don't see that and what will be the response?
01:41He said, if Ukraine's sovereignty is violated, we will know what to do.
01:45He was asked what that looks like.
01:46He said, look, we're prepared a package and we can act at any time.
01:51Fred Pleitgen is in Moscow for us.
01:53Fred, I know you were listening into that.
01:54Your observations on that, too.
01:56I think a crucial point made there on NATO, just to clear up confusion, if nothing else.
02:02I think that was really a crucial point.
02:04It was quite interesting to hear Olaf Scholz saying that as he was standing next to Volodymyr Zelensky,
02:08and essentially right after Volodymyr Zelensky, the president of Ukraine, said,
02:12yes, look, we're still striving for NATO membership, that he believes that it would bring integrity and peace to Ukraine,
02:20and certainly stability as well.
02:21And then Olaf Scholz, right on the back of that, saying that right now it's simply something that's not in the cards,
02:26that's not in the table, and therefore he wonders why Russia is making such an issue of it at this point in time.
02:31That certainly also, to me, very much stood out.
02:34The other lines from Olaf Scholz are certainly lines that we've heard before,
02:37especially the fact that the Germans keep pointing out that they're one of the biggest, or the biggest, as they put it,
02:42single donor of financial aid to the Ukrainians.
02:45That came on the heels of a question about military aid to Ukraine,
02:50which is certainly something that's been a bit of an uncomfortable topic for Olaf Scholz.
02:54The Ukrainian ambassador in Berlin, for instance, pressing the issue,
02:58saying that Ukraine needs defensive weapons and wants Germany to provide some of those defensive weapons.
03:02The Germans have continuously been saying that they are not going to be providing any sort of arms to Ukraine,
03:08saying that they don't export arms into crisis areas.
03:12That's been a big topic.
03:13It was really one of the reasons why some people in Ukraine certainly were a bit disappointed
03:18by the German government in the past couple of days.
03:22So that's another thing that really stood out.
03:24Then also, what would happen if there was a further invasion of Ukraine?
03:27Olaf Scholz obviously leaving out Nord Stream 2, something that he's consistently been doing as well.
03:34And this visit to President Zelensky there is so important for Olaf Scholz,
03:38as tomorrow he'll be here in Moscow and visiting with Vladimir Putin.
03:42And we did hear some interesting remarks from the Kremlin today as well,
03:46with the foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, in a meeting with Vladimir Putin,
03:50saying that he believed that there was still a chance for diplomacy after a question from Vladimir Putin.
03:57So it certainly looks as though the Russians are looking to continuously talk.
04:00And another sort of nugget that we picked up that I think is also quite interesting,
04:04Vladimir Putin also today meeting with his defense minister.
04:07And the defense minister there is saying that some of the large-scale exercises
04:10that have been going on around the area of Ukraine, some of those are coming to an end,
04:15some of those will soon come to an end.
04:17Whether or not that means that maybe some sort of pulling back of troops could be in the cards,
04:22what the messaging, the signaling there is from the Russian side,
04:25certainly very difficult to interpret, but definitely something to watch with some interest, Julia.
04:31Yeah, it's such a great point, Fred. And he was pushed on that.
04:33What are those clear steps of de-escalation?
04:35And we have to wait and see if we hear anything from tomorrow's discussions, of course, too.
04:40On that point, Sam Kiley joins us now from the Ukrainian-Russian border.
04:44Sam, I know you've been looking at what's happening there just outside Kharkiv in Ukraine.
04:48What's your sense based on the intel that we got from the United States
04:52and what we heard once again in this press conference about the military build-up
04:56and the threat, the current threat that it presents?
05:02Well, President Zelenskyy, Julia, in his phone call with President Biden yesterday,
05:06asked for more financial and for more military assistance because in the view of the Ukrainians,
05:12and it's shared by a lot of analysts, the international response to the Russian invasion
05:17and Russian-backed invasion or secession, largely of Donbass, the annexation of Crimea in 2014,
05:24the international response to that was pretty pusillanimous in terms of supporting Ukraine
05:28with any kind of military equipment that could help make a difference
05:33or even help to defend the country.
05:34Now, that said, I've just come down from the border opposite Belograd, the Russian city
05:40where the First Guard's tank army, a whole army, which on paper is almost as big as the British army,
05:50is concentrating, according to our analysis of Russian propaganda that they've been putting out,
05:57but also social media, on that border with tanks, multiple rocket launching systems,
06:02Iskander missiles, helicopters have recently arrived in the last 24 hours.
06:07That is what is being, information coming to us from what's going on in Russia.
06:11On this side of the border, though, Julia, you wouldn't know that this was a country
06:14fearing to be on the brink of war.
06:17Here in Kharkiv, life has gone on completely quietly.
06:19At the border, there were trucks waiting to cross and crossing into Russia.
06:24There wasn't a lot of traffic coming the other way.
06:28Local people there, who are overwhelmingly Russian-speaking, were all saying,
06:32look, we live next to the Russians, we're not that fussed by it.
06:35Some rude, the demise of the Soviet era.
06:38And the younger person I spoke to said, agreed with his president,
06:42that the real issue here was panic, that panic was affecting the economy
06:47and instability, of course, delivers from the Ukrainian perspective
06:50kind of what Russia is looking for.
06:52Now, what is Russia looking for?
06:54Is it really looking, Julia, for a promise that Ukraine can never join NATO?
06:59Why would it be looking for that promise when it is already sponsoring the occupation of Crimea
07:05and it is backing rebels in the Donbass under NATO's regulations?
07:13The rules are a little bit vague here, but there is no real possibility of any nation joining NATO
07:19when it is in a hot dispute over territory, because that would automatically trigger a war.
07:25So, as long as Russia has a foothold militarily in Ukraine, which it does in the form of the annexation of Crimea,
07:32it's completely off the cards so that it could join NATO.
07:35So, what really is going on here is the question that the Ukrainians are asking themselves.
07:40Is this really about not seeing, from the Russian perspective,
07:43a successful pro-Western democracy on their doorstep?
07:47And if that's the case, then any kind of amount of diplomatic manoeuvring may not solve necessarily the desire to destabilise Ukraine in the longer term.
07:58What form that destabilisation takes, though, is very much open to interpretation, as Fred was saying.
08:03Yes, and it's just arguably then a pretext to maintain troops where they're positioned at this moment in time.
08:10Fred, come back in, because I just want to ask you, to the point that Sam was making there about panic,
08:14and it's something that President Zelenskyy has done his best in recent weeks to play down
08:18and say it's the last thing we want, and actually it plays into Russia's hands.
08:22He was asked about his wife and where his wife is located.
08:26Obviously, after a weekend where we've seen certain nations removing their employees from embassies,
08:32we've seen airlines say we're no longer going to fly over the airspace.
08:37He was asked about his wife and his response was quite pointed, I think.
08:43Yeah, it certainly was.
08:44I mean, he said that his wife is also, of course, the first lady of Ukraine,
08:47that his family is always with him, and that his wife is obviously always with him inside the country as well.
08:54And so certainly he was definitely trying to display what he's really been trying to display since the beginning of all this
08:59is to remain calm and to carry on, really.
09:04And, you know, obviously in certain instances that has brought him at odds also with the U.S.
09:09and with some other Western nations as well for exactly the reasons that you were just mentioning,
09:13for the fact that they were pulling out and have been pulling out diplomatic personnel,
09:17you know, in many cases only keeping the core sort of diplomatic staff in Kiev and other cities as well.
09:25But he is one who has always projected the fact that he believes that now is not the moment to panic
09:29for obviously various reasons.
09:31I mean, some of those reasons are also the fact that all of this has already caused massive economic issues
09:36for Ukraine, just, you know, just businesses that are obviously very concerned and people not coming to Ukraine.
09:44It certainly makes it very difficult for him to keep all of that together.
09:49So he's been trying to portray that calm.
09:51He has done that again.
09:52And then at the same time, he criticized business people and others who are leaving Ukraine
09:56and saying that that's something that simply isn't acceptable and that people need to look at that,
10:01especially business people.
10:02He said, look, your staff needs you in Ukraine as well.
10:05So I did think that that certainly was sort of him showing that he's remaining calm
10:10and him really trying to display some leadership skills as well, Julia.
10:14Yes.
10:15Fred, great to have you with us.
10:17Fred Pleitgen and Sam Kiley there.
10:19Both.
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