Logan Mohtashami on the biggest risk of releasing the GSEs from conservatorship

HousingWire

On today’s episode, Editor in Chief Sarah Wheeler talks with Lead Analyst Logan Mohtashami about mortgage rates, home sales and the biggest risk of releasing the GSEs from conservatorship.   Related to this episode:   ⁠Bessent weighs mortgage rate risk in potential release of GSEs from conservatorship | HousingWire⁠⁠  https://www.housingwire.com/articles/bessent-trump-releasing-gses-from-conservatorship/  FHFA Director Pulte calls on Powell to lower interest rates | HousingWire⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  https://www.housingwire.com/articles/fhfa-director-pulte-calls-on-powell-to-lower-interest-rates/   Enjoy the episode!   The HousingWire Daily podcast brings the full picture of the most compelling stories in the housing market reported across HousingWire. Each morning, listen to editor in chief Sarah Wheeler talk to leading industry voices and get a deeper look behind the scenes of the top mortgage and real estate stories. Hosted and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.

Transcript

00:00Welcome, everyone. My guest today is lead analyst Logan Motoshami to talk about the biggest risk

00:11of releasing the GSEs from conservatorship, plus mortgage rates and home sales. First,

00:17I want to thank our sponsor, Rocket Close, for making this episode possible.

00:22Logan, welcome back to the podcast.

00:24It is wonderful to be here. As you can see, I just got out of the shower, so the hair is pretty

00:28crazy. We have a lot to cover today. You had three different articles over the weekend because so

00:33much was going on. Where do you want to start? Well, I think the main thing is the GSE's plan

00:40of removing Freddie and Fannie and risk now. What I've tried to do is, we always say, be the

00:48detective, not the troll. Try to figure out what people are wanting to do by their wording, body

00:55language or stuff like that. So obviously, the White House's whole thing was getting the 10-year

00:59yield lower. Okay, so hear me out for a second with this theory I have. The 10-year yield going

01:06lower and mortgage rates going lower, housing demand picks up. That's something President

01:11Trump could say, hey, look at it. Where people are buying homes again, you couldn't do that under

01:14Biden because we have record low levels of sales, like his lowest levels of sales ever. So when the

01:1910-year yield actually went lower and demand picked up a little bit, you could run it. But

01:24because of the trade war and all this stuff that's happening, bond yields had gone up again. By the way,

01:30the 10-year yield is at 4.45% today. So I just want to know, what happened to the budget,

01:36the deficit? What happened to all that? All those crazy headlines. Oh my God, the bond market is scared

01:42of the deficit. The bond market, you better watch out, man. We might get back to the 1997.

01:50Did not happen. Come on now, people. Come on now. Y'all need to relax. This is why we say

01:56Gen Xers, we should be able to handle this stuff. The baby moves, whatever. But in any case,

02:01now that bond yields are up, what happened Monday night, the head of the FHFA, Bill Pulte,

02:09went on social media and said, enough's enough. The Federal Reserve needs to cut rates. And a lot

02:16of people go, well, that's not how the bond market... No. Where 65 to 75% of where the 10-year

02:22yield can range is where Fed policy is. Just go back. I always like to use 1971 to now because we had

02:30that unique uptick in rates going to 18% and coming back down. But what if it's something else?

02:39What if the whole plan of removing the GSEs... Because Besant came out and talked about this,

02:50and we wrote that article as well, that he said, listen, if this is going to make mortgage spreads

02:56wide, then we're not going to do this. But I think it's a lot harder for them to do something like that

03:03now because bond yields are up and mortgage rates are up. And if mortgage rates go up to 8% again,

03:09because of something they did, I mean, it's not like this trade war has been going on perfectly.

03:18You know, Myron, I guess, I mean, I'm supposedly, if I believe the stories, J.D. Vance is mad because

03:23Myron told everybody the dollar would go up. Don't worry about any companies eating it. You don't need

03:29to. And that hasn't happened. I still don't believe that story. I think authentically,

03:33they're just throwing Myron underneath the bus. I think the whole low dollar thing is that. But

03:38it becomes a little bit more difficult to kind of weigh the risk of getting Freddie and Fannie out

03:45in this environment. Hypothetical. Let's just say mortgage rates are at 5.5%. Home sales pick up a

03:52little bit, you know. Then you got a little bit of a better backdrop. My contention has always been

03:57that. Don't worry. And I hope the treasury and anybody's listening, anybody who works for the

04:02treasury and all that stuff. It's not the concern of now, because they always say there's a quarter

04:08percent move, maybe higher rates or half a percent. It's when things get bad and the market deteriorates

04:15and you have market drama, the spreads in theory can get much wider than what we've been historically

04:22normal to, right? Because we always think like 3% is very high. Without the quote unquote government

04:28backing in there, why couldn't the spreads go to 4, 5, 6, 7%? Because it's always the time when

04:35there's risk. Like we always talk like, look at these banks. Oh, these banks have been here

04:39for a long time. Well, Silicon Valley gone, right? Some of the other banks gone. You know,

04:48some people say that they should have let Silicon Valley banking and everything go under because

04:52then these tech bros would understand. Like, you know, they would get a whooping instead of like,

04:57you know, going on their podcast and yapping off about nothing. But I think it's just become a little

05:03bit more difficult to start the process of the GSEs if you know there is some inherent risk and then

05:09trying to explain that to the public. So I think something that you wrote about in that article that

05:14really struck me was like, one of the risks that people maybe aren't thinking about if you take

05:19the GSEs out of conservatorship is just the state level risk or the more specific risk when it comes

05:26to climate change. If you don't have the federal government doing that kind of backstop, it's like

05:30you have to actually price in way more risk for Florida, for Texas, for states that are hit by these

05:37natural disasters than what people currently have to worry about when it comes to the mortgages.

05:41So the greenies would tell you that Freddie and Fannie are allowing, you know, climate risk to go on

05:50because they're not pricing Florida or these places more aggressively. So and that's like a very

05:58coherent thought process. I'm surprised they even came up with that. But in this case, they're right.

06:04If you have no government backing, why shouldn't in Florida be targeted much higher, especially if

06:10there's inherent risk to the loans and all of a sudden hurricanes and oh God, and if FEMA is not

06:16going to come in and bail some things out, they're on the hook. Right. So so that's that's that's a

06:23conversation that because, you know, when I went on Yahoo Finance early 2024 and I said that there are

06:29some parts of the other country that just some people just will refuse to live in. But what if banks

06:36don't even want to bank there? You know, I know Jerome Powell's talked about that, you know, 10 to 15

06:40years, maybe some areas aren't bankable. You take the GSEs off of government support. Why wouldn't

06:45Florida or Texas or Oklahoma, places where you have climate risk, California, why wouldn't mortgage

06:52pricing be higher in that area if you want to offset risk? Because that's what a lot of environmental

06:57people have always said that Freddie and Fannie are facilitating, you know, or mitigating the climate

07:03change risk in these areas because they're allowing a pricing to be normal. So that's another thing to

07:09think about as well going out in the future. So you got that you got rates still elevated. You got

07:15possibly mortgage spreads getting wider. But now, but set said, well, I'm going to look at this. And if

07:19it does seem like it's going to go that way, we won't do it. But I think if mortgage rates had gone

07:26lower and stayed there for a while, you know, they have a bigger and easier backdrop. This is why I was very

07:33curious when when Trump put that social media post out about, you know, I'm seriously considering this. So you

07:39could understand some people's apprehension all this because the trade war just seems like we're just throwing

07:44stuff in the air, whatever, you know, Hassett comes out today. And, you know, says, Hey, listen, we're going to get

07:51all the tariffs down to 10% or maybe lower. You know, it just seems like this, this can't be one of these, okay,

07:57we're just throwing tariff numbers out or whatever. And, you know, threatening people on one night and

08:01then taking it away. When you do this, you're all in, you are all in because unless you're taking them

08:08back into conservatorship or whatever, this, this is not something you could just say one weekend and

08:13then Monday morning change it. So I think there might be some apprehension now. Maybe Bassett has

08:21already talked to some investors and they go, Oh, homie, we are not giving you that kind of pricing

08:26ever again, once they're out. So I think that's, that's something to think about going out in the

08:31future. If this, if this doesn't happen this year, or if it comes through fruition that, you know, we,

08:39we just, we're just want to deal with the trade war and everything. And then we'll, we'll deal with

08:42this later on. And then, you know, they could get a shadow fed president and they could lower rates and

08:46then have a, you could, you could fight this battle another time in a better environment than what

08:52you're doing right now. And I think maybe a part of that is Bill Pulte coming out and go enough is

08:58enough. You need the fed to cut rates. So we'll, we'll get to that Pulte announcement in just a

09:05second, but I did want to kind of dig in here from your perspective. What is the financial gain that we

09:12get on both sides, right? Like we know what, what Fannie and Freddie do right now for the treasury.

09:17What, what does it look like? Like what is from a fiscal standpoint? No, from a, from a money

09:22standpoint, I just want to make sure I use that correctly. Like for the United States, what makes

09:27the United States more money? Well, I think hedge funds just want more money. I think this is a hedge

09:32fund thing. You know, nobody's, nobody's talking about, nobody's talking about GSC reform, except for

09:38like Bill Ackman and Fleck and sign and all these people. Right. What's the benefit to everybody

09:44else? There's like these crazy Freddie fan. I don't know. You remember those crazy Freddie

09:48fanny people on Twitter? Oh yeah. Oh my goodness. That was a fun. Those, those guys were fun.

09:57They were just completely, I mean, they were hired people, boss, whatever. I shouldn't have even said

10:01the name. It will, it will bring you want to talk about men that need a job, you know, get, get,

10:07get these people hired somewhere else. Cause they literally spent a little 24 seven talking about

10:12Freddie. Um, so let's talk about what is the biggest financial asset the United States government

10:20has student loan debt, student loan debt. We have like 1.6 trillion dollars. Hey, listen,

10:29we're collecting student loan debt payments. By the way, there's a lot of like over 2.4 million FICO

10:34scores just got hammered by it. Again, you see this, the process isn't fluid, right? You know,

10:39you know, some things that work when you do things so fast right away, mistakes happen. Um,

10:46so now that we're collecting, uh, payments now or interest, guess who gets the money? The United

10:52States government, right? The government became the biggest player. And guess who gets that? Ah,

10:59the treasury, whatever, you know, deficits, you know, we take that money and we pay down or we're

11:03never paying down, but we, we put that into the budget plan. What if, what if the, uh, other

11:09intention for the GSEs is to create a kind of wealth sovereigns fund and listen, all of you around the

11:15world, you can buy, you know, uh, uh, Freddie and Fannie, whatever the combined entity or whatever

11:20it is, and raise a ton of money around the world. And you could buy a piece of America, uh, out there.

11:26You're probably gonna have to give them a really big valuation for that to even make sense. The

11:30amount of money, these, these two giants need to have capital to protect is massive. So, uh, maybe

11:37they want that. So they go, okay, we're collecting money on student loan debt interests to put into

11:42the budget. And then we're going to collect this. And then we can put this in a budget. Maybe that's

11:46the game plan, but I, I, I just go, everything was working fine with them and conservatives there.

11:53We had no problem. Everything flowed. You could say that the political, the, the politics of whoever's

12:00in, in charge of the FHFA, things can change. Of course, you know, X could happen with Republicans,

12:07X could happen with Democrats. And that is a certain amount of a job, but the system worked. I mean,

12:12the world hates us because we have Freddie and Fannie. That's what it is. We, other countries don't have

12:18the plumbing that we do. So in this case, we, they're, they're fine. There's nothing that we

12:24can, but if you want to like collect money, like you do with student loan debt and say, let's,

12:28let's just make this a really big valuation and get investors around the world to take that money

12:31and put it into the budget. Maybe that's the end game plan here. But, um, I've always said, I,

12:37they're perfectly functioning entities in conservatorship. We never have to worry about,

12:42they make so much money that they give to the treasuries, right? They're doing great. You know,

12:47uh, uh, they're one of our best performing things for the government in that sense. It's a complete

12:52success, but I think just some hedge funds, people want their preferred shares or, you know, stocks.

12:57And that's, that's kind of how it operates. So you can understand there are some people going,

13:02whoa, do we, after everything that's been happening right now, is this, is this the time we really

13:08want to do this? Right. Or maybe we want to, maybe we want to wait maybe two years or something.

13:12Cause I could see Trump going, okay, I want wars wars is going to cut the fed funds rate by one and

13:18a half percent mortgage rates will be at five and a half percent. Then we can maybe do something like

13:22this. Okay. I get that. But now I got a sense that the sense is like, we're going to take a look

13:30at this because the 10 year yield has gone up and mortgage rates have gone up. And, uh, uh, uh,

13:35there's a lot of people asking questions. Is this the time to do something like that?

13:39Well, we've talked a lot about the fact that like the higher mortgage rates, like them doing

13:43something that makes mortgage rates go up. Nope. Nobody's going to think that's a win. That's not

13:48going to be good for anybody. That's the last thing that they want. Bill Ackman will love it or

13:51something, you know, hedge funds, wall street, I love it. You know, they'll, they'll, they'll get their

13:56stuff. But, uh, again, these are two really significant, important pieces to the U S economy. I mean,

14:03why do you think we have the longest economic and job expansion? Like literally if you took COVID out

14:07of the equation, we would still had that expansion. We have a funding system with the majority of

14:12consumption debt tied to housing. And it was fluid, right? If you do, if you get into a situation where

14:18a publicly traded company, we saw what happened to the banks, right? You see all those tech podcast

14:23people. Could you imagine when they were begging, begging Janet Yellen, please, please go help us

14:30over the weekend. You got to save these banks. You can't destroy, you know, you know, so some

14:35people go, we should have let them happen. Then these guys can't yap off on their podcasts right

14:39now. Um, but with Freddie and Fannie, they have to take him in conservatorship. I mean,

14:45their leverage ratio is like 72 to 75 to one, you know, so, um, it's a working thing, you know?

14:51So wherever we go, uh, we got some good clues into what's going on in the process. And obviously

14:58the, the white house and everybody on the economic team wants the tenure yield lower,

15:03wants mortgage rates lower. So this is the whole shadow fed president Trump going after the set

15:08pulse. You know, everyone wants to, there's a reason for that. And, uh, uh, we highlighted some of

15:14the, um, in the article that we wrote, uh, uh, with, uh, Bill Pulte talking about, we highlighted

15:19some of the risks if L if rates stay elevated, uh, tied to the economic cycle or tied to the GSC

15:26reform plan, stuff like that, that, you know, have, has, have gone with other, uh, economic cycles as

15:30well. So let's talk a little bit about, uh, Pulte's announcement on, on Twitter where he said,

15:36you know, like you said, enough is enough, you know, uh, Powell needs to lower interest rates.

15:41And so the interesting thing about that is we know that first of all, it was settled last week

15:46by the Supreme court that, um, Trump can not fire Powell. He can fire the heads of other independent

15:52agencies, but they did a carve out just for Powell, just for the federal reserve. So, you know,

15:58does it mean anything if, if, uh, you know, Pulte or whoever it is, is saying, Jay Powell, you've got

16:03a lower interest rates. Cause he's already shown that like, he's, he's not going to really, uh,

16:07bend under that pressure. This is where the shadow fed president comes in. So on October of 2024,

16:14before Trump won, uh, the cent talked about, if we get somebody that we tell the market,

16:20this is our guy Trump's, I mean, or, or you, you just basically say Powell's finished,

16:26you know, this is his last thing. So bond traders, you're here to make money.

16:30So our guy is telling you, start trading the 10 year yield, you know, with a fed funds rate

16:36one to one and a half percent lower. I always thought that is a more plausible theory than

16:43firing foul Powell. So we have other fed presidents who are talking about, yeah, listen, we want to

16:50focus on labor, right? Well, we, we, we have rate cuts coming in if labor market breaks, you know,

16:55stuff like that. But in this case, uh, if you want to look out, uh, it would be a more coherent plan

17:02to do the shadow fed president, uh, in this environment. If, uh, Jerome Powell, and you think

17:07about it in this way, millions of people buy homes. I mean, outside of like the doomer crowd, you know,

17:14lower mortgage rates, people buy homes, people have sex, they have kids, they have all this stuff

17:18and Trump could take victory for it. So that now you're working a crowd and having all your soldiers

17:28basically say, Hey, Hey, what's up? I, you know what? He's not going to do us any good. We're going

17:33to put X here. X going to be the next fed chairman. Go ahead. He's going to go on TV and go, we're

17:39lowering rates. So get ready. Bond traders get ready. That's what a shadow fed president in theory

17:45can do. Uh, we'll cross that bridge if we get there. Uh, but again, uh, it's, it's something

17:51to think about again, for me, it's always been labor over inflation. If the labor market breaks,

17:55then you could get your lower mortgage rates for longer, but, um, we're just kind of hovering here.

18:00I mean, thankfully the mortgage spreads are, are improved or else again, this whole year would be

18:06at 8% mortgage rates. And again, that's one of the reasons why I think it's, it's a little bit

18:11difficult for a set to go into the GSEs because if we had eight, 9% mortgage rates,

18:17cause the spreads got bad because the GSEs aren't backed up. It's a tough sell. It's a tough sell.

18:24When you got, you got billionaire wall street, people talk about, we have to, you know, get them

18:28into conservatives. I need my preferred shares and stuff like that. And then you have the entire

18:31country out there. So I think the white house understands that backdrop and, and, and how that

18:38looks, uh, if you don't do your due diligence and ask bond investors, Hey, if we do this,

18:43where are the spreads going? They're going to go, it's going to go up here. Hey, if we do this,

18:47how are we pricing Florida? Uh, it's going to go up here, you know? Right. So, well,

18:53and interesting to think about, um, you know, if you're thinking about midterms, if you're thinking

18:56about the next election cycle, Florida is really key to a lot of things. Like you, you have to be

19:02careful politically what you do with Florida too. Right. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I'll tell you this.

19:08It's, it's a very easy win-win if mortgage rates go lower for, for Trump. And he's just going to say,

19:14look, we got, I mean, that was the whole marketing plan, right? The 10 year yield went down.

19:18Originally you had some demand pickup. It's really weird when you think about this, what we'll talk

19:24about this a little bit later, but new homes, new home sales, purchase application data for new homes

19:29just surpassed the pre COVID high. Nobody knows this. Nobody even looks at it. It's so weird that

19:35this data line is really critical. Nobody really looks at it, but, but imagine if rates had gone

19:40lower and all of a sudden home sales are really picking up and then places like Florida and Texas

19:46benefit or red States, you know, you get people riled up and then other States where you have, uh, uh,

19:53that are in kind of, uh, uh, middle of the grounds, they go, Hey, listen, rates are lower.

19:59So it's, it's, it's a political economic play, you know, uh, uh, because millions of people buy

20:06homes every single year. And, uh, uh, that was one of the, uh, uh, negative aspects of the last few

20:12years, uh, that rates were just elevated. Let's go into the, um, housing market tracker for,

20:18um, last week, which I thought it was really interesting. So you have now incorporated a new

20:24data line. Tell us about that. I know I've got a word count, man. They, it's like, you know,

20:29if it was up to me, I'd have like 50 charts and then it's like, Oh, nobody, nobody's ever going

20:36to read this. The Google SEOs are going to, you know, so, so I've had to condense some things,

20:40but we added, uh, uh, another chart. Uh, we have our total pending charts, which is kind of like a

20:45moving average or where sales are. And that's, or that's our data recently gotten better on the

20:51year over year, but just remember comps are starting to get easy. So we incorporated the

20:55weekly charts as well. This is, this is just a week to week data to show it gets, it's a very

21:00volatile and you could, uh, you know, a holiday week or some, one thing could really mess things up,

21:06but that gives you a more fresher look about the current week to go with the total pendings.

21:11Uh, and, and one of the things I've highlighted in that is like, man, we have,

21:14we're going to have like a lot of easy comps. So if we have year over year growth in the existing

21:20home sales from June to October, right? We have one more month where we're going to have sales

21:25above, uh, form above 4 million to work off of, then just slow, put it in a little bit more context.

21:30And this is trying to explain housing data. I mean, I mean, think about it. Just like,

21:35take a step back, new home sales, purchase application data as a pre COVID highs,

21:39like above 2020, we're still like 200,000 home sales away from getting to that peak purchase

21:47application data is up 16 weeks in a row. By the time this podcast comes out, we'll know if it's 17.

21:53If you look at that, you think it's fine, but these things need to be explained. So the tracker,

21:57again, for me is pro supply, higher mortgage rates can create higher inventory. We're almost

22:03back to normal in what I would consider perfectly acceptable. My low inventory theory goes,

22:10our discussion goes all the way. Uh, and it's based on that the one positive about higher rates,

22:17it can allow inventory to grow. Uh, you know, Mike Simonson and myself, when we did our first

22:22podcast together, where we talked about this and I, and one of the things I told him is that I believe

22:27that if rates stay high enough and demand is suppressed, you can get inventory to 2019 levels.

22:32Now it's, it's like 10 States right now, but as a country, we're not that far off

22:38from getting to the lower end of 2019 inventory data for the NAR spot. Now it's the seasonal peak,

22:45and then that's going to decline. You want to start the year at 1.52 million and, and, and work off of

22:52that. We didn't, we, we obviously didn't start that from that position. We can maybe get the

22:57underneath, but at least we're here. And that's positive because that means you can't have prices

23:03escalate. The affordability works itself through that wages grow, households grow, dual incomes,

23:08price growth slows down. Case Schiller came out again today, year over year growth, 3.4%. But

23:14for my forecast to be right, this thing has to get noticeably softer the rest of the year.

23:20And we're like three, four months ahead of Case Schiller. So we kind of, kind of see it. And

23:24that's why the tracker to me again, 2025 and 2024 are positive. 2020, 2021, early 2022,

23:33savagely unhealthy. Worst housing market I've seen since, you know, that wasn't good here. You're

23:38setting yourself up for better demand in the future. Back then you're setting yourself up for an absolute

23:45collapse in home sales. And that's what we got. And this is why I look at housing a little bit

23:49different than everybody. I just want to teach people how to look at data so they can understand

23:53it better. And then when they understand it better, they can talk to their clients and then their

23:57clients get to see it and understand it better. And that's really boring, non-sexy work, but it's

24:02the right way to do economics. So I do think it's interesting. We're at the end of May here. So we

24:07are really through the spring home buying, what you would call the peak home buying months, right?

24:12And so now we'll see what happens this summer, which also is very rate driven. Like if we get some,

24:18if we get lower rates for different reasons, that could definitely spike up again, right?

24:23You know, last year I lost my price forecast. I was too low because mortgage rates started to fall

24:28last year at this time. And when they fell, they fell near 6%. It's always near 6% that the data gets.

24:34And then all of a sudden the forward-looking data started to get better. But because people just

24:39were looking at old stale data, they didn't see it. And all of a sudden we had a couple of hundred

24:43thousand higher in home sales. I was like, where the hell did this come from? Because people are

24:48looking at the mortgage purchase application data and they see the low volumes. They don't think you

24:52could gain a couple of hundred thousand in home sales. And that's kind of happened toward the end

24:57of the year last year. So here we have growth. Now I would say one thing, we're seeing less cash buyers

25:04as a percentage of sales and sales are roughly kind of the same. So in that case, we have less cash buyers,

25:09but mortgage demand has performed much better. And it's really, I mean, we're still at elevated rates

25:15and it's holding up. So I'll be surprised, but maybe we do have 17 straight weeks of positive year

25:22over year data. And again, the comps are going to be really low. I'm talking like the historical mother

25:27of all low comps, but we'll see. Again, I've always looked at it as housing demand gets better when rates

25:33get towards 6%. It is the duration of the curve that matters. This is why Trump, Bessette, Pulte,

25:39they all want lower rates. So you can get lower rates for a little bit longer, not three, not four,

25:44not five, but just getting towards six. You can get something going on that front. And we have so

25:50much more inventory than we did in 2022 that it'll be okay. You don't have to worry about home prices

25:56going to 10, 15, 20% where these people go, oh my God, your price is going to escalate. No,

26:01there's enough inventory. Rates are not that low. We're in a much better spot now.

26:06It's so interesting because we have the people are like, oh, prices are going to escalate because

26:10there's not enough inventory. And then the people are like, there's too much inventory.

26:12It's crashing. This is showing, you know, all this stress.

26:15Millennials and baby boomers. That's what it is. That's what it is. These are bad. Let these,

26:23let these two fight with each other, man. Gen Xers, we got this. We all go.

26:27We do have this. We play ball. We play ball. We're not, we're, we, we just,

26:31we just handle things differently, but yeah. Gen X, Hey, we're, we're the best generation for a

26:36reason. No, I, I mean, honestly, like we, like I always tell people, you remember those gate or

26:42like when you go to the park, we had those spinning things. Yeah. We, we spin like, you'd have to hold

26:49onto this thing. If you didn't hold onto it, you'd die. Like our, our, our play times, like we had no safe

26:55spaces. You go out there, you could get yourself killed in one of these parks, man. You see saw

27:00and you get hit and you fall off. And you know, we, we'd have to dial our phones. Like we didn't

27:05have like chat GBT or anything. And we like, if we mess something out, we have to start over again.

27:10And then we have to like call in to find out what movie theaters, like what time it is that we have

27:15to stay on there the whole time. And I mean, we just did things differently. Uh, you had to call in

27:20for the weather. Do you remember like for the weather and the time you would, you would dial a phone,

27:24a phone number and find out what the exact time was. Yeah. So we grew up in that environment. So,

27:30so naturally we, we could take care of business, right? We're not this, but the payment was

27:34millennials. Oh, it's crying. It's this and that, and this, we need more social security. We need

27:38this, you know? So, ah, it is what it is. Okay. Logan, you and I, we're going to, we're going to,

27:44you know, we're going to make Gen X great again. We're going to, well, no, we don't need to do it.

27:49Gen X was always great. We were always playing ball. It's these baby boomers and millennials that are

27:53always like, ah, these two, let them, let them fight and cry it out. But we know we were good.

27:59We were always the best out here. Okay. Well, thank you so much for being on today. So much

28:05going on. Appreciate all your work on this and we will talk to you again soon. Okay.

28:09Okay.

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