00:00Commissioner Townsend, welcome.
00:03Thank you for having me.
00:04One of the most high-profile cases your organisation has been involved in concluded recently,
00:10with former Mount Gambier MP Troy Bell jailed for five years,
00:14given a two-and-a-half-year non-parole period for taking more than $400,000 of public money.
00:20In 2025, could the Commission you lead conduct the same investigation
00:24which ultimately saw Bell convicted and jailed?
00:27Yes, it could, Rory.
00:29Corrupt conduct has a very technical legal definition
00:34under the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act,
00:37but the type of conduct that you've just described is the type of conduct
00:42that would still be captured within the definition of corruption,
00:46albeit that Mr Bell was ultimately convicted of offences of theft.
00:52That conduct is conduct which, if it were alleged to have occurred,
00:57would likely be assessed by the Office for Public Integrity as a potential issue of corruption
01:02and referred to the Commission for Further Investigation.
01:06You are the third ICAT Commissioner South Australia has had your predecessor,
01:10Anne Vanstone, left mid-last year. She said she had run out of steam.
01:14She also said, and I quote, we are the weakest integrity agency in Australia. Is she right?
01:21Look, every agency of this nature within Australia operates under a different legislative regime
01:28and with different functions and a different remit.
01:32My focus is very much on doing the considerable amount of good work that I view the Commission is able to achieve within the legislative remit.
01:42What's changed when it comes to the regime since Anne Vanstone's departure to strengthen it?
01:48As any new leader would do, I have looked at ICAC through a fresh lens with a view to what is working well,
01:57what are potential areas for development. So there are a number of initiatives we have underway.
02:04One is that we have employed a witness welfare officer this year.
02:08But what about the framework itself?
02:10Yes.
02:11Because lots of Anne Vanstone's frustration stemmed from the reforms that passed through State Parliament without a dissenting voice back in 2021.
02:20National experts in this space say that it's left the framework toothless and powerless.
02:25Given the existing framework, is South Australia a fertile ground for corruption?
02:29In my view, no. Now, any organisation provides grounds for corruption.
02:35The Commission has an investigation function, and I think that's commonly known and understood.
02:41The number of matters being referred to the Office for Public Integrity,
02:45and therefore the number of matters currently being investigated by the Commission,
02:50has been slowly increasing over time.
02:54So in the last financial year, the Commission commenced 65 corruption investigations.
03:00People within public administration and indeed within the public are raising important issues
03:05where they identify a potential issue of corruption and reporting them.
03:10And then ICAC is proceeding to investigate them.
03:13And then they're sent off to South Australia Police.
03:16Correct.
03:17How many of those 65 have ended up with police thus far?
03:20I might come back to that question.
03:22I just wanted to add that the other important aspect where the Commission can have a great impact
03:28on South Australian public administration, and the integrity within it,
03:33is with respect to our prevention and education function.
03:37When we talk about matters being referred to South Australian Police,
03:40since I commenced, I've referred four matters of alleged corruption to South Australia Police
03:49to consider either further investigation or prosecution.
03:53Are you satisfied that's enough?
03:55Well, perhaps if I come back to the remainder, where we don't refer a matter for investigation
04:02or for further prosecution, we then look at those matters with a lens to
04:07are there any prevention initiatives that arise out of them.
04:10As you've described it, the Commission does not currently have the ability to commence an investigation on its own motion.
04:18Yes.
04:19How important is it for that to change?
04:21It is a matter which is amenable to being reviewed.
04:26Ultimately, what the Commission does, if the Commission, for example, has information
04:31that could lead to an investigation into potential corruption in public administration,
04:38then Commission employees, like any other public officer, have a mandatory obligation
04:44to make a report to the Office for Public Integrity.
04:47So we could report that information to the Office for Public Integrity,
04:51with whom we have a very cooperative relationship.
04:54That information could be quickly assessed and then returned back to the Commission for an investigation to commence.
05:01But hasn't the problem been, when it comes to any changes around the ICAC Act, a lack of political will?
05:06And that was very much the frustration of your predecessor.
05:10I can only talk to my experiences with the legislation and where I have seen aspects that I think are particularly amenable to further consideration.
05:23I've publicly stated that.
05:25Does that include the ability for your office to directly refer to the DPP?
05:30Because it's an issue that you've raised.
05:32Yes.
05:33It's also an issue that the Police Commissioner has raised.
05:35Yes.
05:36Do you feel you have made any progress?
05:37The issue there is that the Commission did used to have the ability to refer matters directly to the DPP at the conclusion of investigation.
05:46Now the legislation requires that we refer a matter to South Australian Police.
05:51And my primary concern around that is that that causes an extra layer in the process.
05:59It causes additional time for a process which involves…
06:03And potentially duplication if Police are looking at a similar issue.
06:06Potentially, yes.
06:07So there's a potential efficiency issue, but also an issue around the welfare of people who are brought into this system, whether it's a person of interest or a witness who's involved in proceedings.
06:23You have enjoyed an extensive legal career before moving into this role, including with the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Office of Public Integrity.
06:32Given the turbulent history ICAC has faced, why did you take the job?
06:36I've always been drawn to roles that have a very clear purpose and a sense of being able to make a contribution to the criminal justice system and also to the broader public administration.
06:50I really saw this role as an opportunity to make a contribution in a positive way to safeguarding and strengthening integrity in South Australia.
07:00Commissioner, thank you.
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