00:00Hello and welcome to the Europe Conversation, I'm Stefan Grobe.
00:12My guest today is the President of Serbia, Aleksandar Vucic,
00:16a man whose political journey in American News Magazine once described as
00:20from nationalist hawk to devout Europeanist.
00:25Mr. President, thank you so much for joining us today.
00:28I'm privileged to be with you here.
00:31The article I was referring to was from 2014.
00:34Are you still a devout Europeanist?
00:38In the meantime, I became a usual suspect.
00:41But as a matter of fact, I'm pro-European oriented.
00:47Now, Serbia is an interesting country.
00:51People love Donald Trump and people are also very fond of Vladimir Putin.
00:57I wonder, is there any excitement for Europe or European leaders?
01:01We never see any European flags during the protests.
01:06I'm not a leader of protests, at least, but there is a very rational explanation for that.
01:16First of all, Serbs, they have always been pro-Republican oriented speaking about United States elections
01:26because we believe that we suffered a lot from Democratic administration in 1999 and even after that.
01:38And that's why people very much welcomed President Trump's victory.
01:45And it's very obvious that he has a very large scale of popularity in my country.
01:55At the same time, Russia has been a traditional ally of Serbia for not many decades, but for centuries.
02:07And that's another reason.
02:09Speaking about European leader, people are still very rational.
02:14And they think that the EU path is the best way and the best path for Serbia in the future.
02:23But speaking about the leaders, I believe that people in my country,
02:26they do respect the President Kosta, Ursula von der Leyen as a commissioner leader,
02:37particularly because of different behavior comparing to all the others because she was visiting twice or even three times,
02:49not only Belgrade but the other areas, southern part of Serbia, which is a very rare case.
02:55That's what our people really respect.
02:58I cannot make comparison in popularity,
03:01but if you ask people, there is a still majority of people that would like to join the European Union.
03:10Do you fear that Serbia becomes another Turkey,
03:15dwelling in the European waiting room forever?
03:19Serbia didn't open any single chapter, any single cluster in the last three and a half years.
03:25It very much coincides with the fact that at that time, war in Ukraine started.
03:35And we were the only country that did not impose sanctions against Russia,
03:40although we have always been very supportive to territorial integrity of Ukraine,
03:44to UN Charter, to UN resolutions.
03:47And we have always been condemning an incursion and everything that was going on on Ukrainian territory,
03:57but it was not enough.
03:59At the same time, I believe that we have to consider all the remarks,
04:07all the demands from the European Union.
04:08We need to change the level of our enthusiasm, the level of our energy,
04:14to understand what we were doing in the wrong way and to go much faster.
04:21Just to say a few words to your people here.
04:25When you say Serbia, it means, comparing to Western Balkans,
04:30it is almost 55% of overall Western Balkans export to EU.
04:34So, Serbia is regarding that issue bigger than all the others altogether.
04:40Speaking about FDI attraction, last three years, Serbia was more than 60% of overall
04:46in attracting foreign direct investments than all the others in the Western Balkans.
04:53Much bigger.
04:54And, at the same time, yes, I know that we are facing thousands of doubts from different member states
05:05because of our relationship with Beijing, with Moscow.
05:10I cannot, and I'm not going to justify myself for talking with someone.
05:16I think it's really stupid, and I'm not a pupil in an elementary school, to tell you the truth.
05:20I believe that everybody should talk to each other, and I think it's very healing,
05:28and it doesn't mean that I agree with someone if I speak to someone.
05:32There's a lot to unpack here of what you said.
05:35I will come to that in a minute.
05:36But, first, when you travel across Europe, meeting people, meeting your counterparts,
05:44how would you rate the support and the excitement within the European Union for a Serbian membership?
05:55It's different.
05:57When I speak to Southerners, there is much bigger support.
06:04I'm going to meet President Macron in a few days again.
06:07I believe that we have had so far French support, Italian support.
06:12I was meeting Giorgio Meloni several times in the last 12 months.
06:16It's pretty much the same with Spaniards, Portuguese, Greek, and the others.
06:24It's a bit different when we go to Benelux countries,
06:28and it's a bit different when we speak to Baltic countries and Scandinavian countries.
06:32I will have German Minister of Foreign Affairs very soon in Belgrade, in a few days.
06:39I have spoken recently to Chancellor Merz.
06:42We had some good talks, and I hope that we'll be able to be hosting him soon in Belgrade,
06:47which means January, February next year.
06:50When you were in China earlier this year,
06:52you told a Chinese interviewer that you didn't sleep the entire night before your talks with President Xi the next day.
07:02I wonder, do you experience the same sleeplessness before a day of talks with Ursula von der Leyen?
07:09You want to see this?
07:15I'm not a witty person at all.
07:18I believe that I'm, at least from time to time, too serious and very responsible.
07:24Yes, I cannot overcome this type of jitter as never, ever.
07:30And I do a lot of preparations.
07:33And I was doing a lot of preparations last night for my meeting with Antonio Costa,
07:38and I do my best to analyze, to scrutinize everything,
07:43to learn by heart what is necessary, and I'm not ashamed to say this.
07:48And from time to time, I act as a student, you know,
07:52because I believe that I should be well prepared
07:55and at least not to be surprised in any kind of discussion I might have.
08:02And this is not going to be changed,
08:05and I believe in speaking to the Chinese president.
08:08It's a great opportunity for the leader,
08:13a small guy from a very proud country
08:17that might deliver messages that he needs.
08:21And it's the same when I speak to Ursula.
08:23It's the same when I speak to Antonio.
08:25I know them, and I met them more times than I was meeting presidency,
08:34but that's how it goes.
08:36Let's talk about foreign policy,
08:38a topic you're at loggerheads with the European Union.
08:43You have repeatedly supported Ukraine's territorial integrity,
08:48even saying that Crimea and Donbass are and will always be part of Ukraine.
08:53Yet, you oppose the EU's anti-Russian sanctions.
08:57Why?
08:58I do not oppose.
09:00We are not an EU member state.
09:03I cannot do anything on this.
09:06I cannot influence it.
09:08But you...
09:09But I can tell you...
09:10Are you saying you would support them once you're in the EU?
09:12No, no, I can tell you.
09:13We are not a member of the EU.
09:16But we were not...
09:18Nobody asked us about anything.
09:20They just tell us you have to align with it.
09:23We were under sanctions for many years.
09:27And it actually harmed ordinary people.
09:31It has always been the case.
09:32And it did not bring the very best result.
09:34And I have some doubts about the outcome of huge sanction packages
09:47that were imposed against Russia in the last three and a half or four years, whatever.
09:55But we had no influence on that.
09:58Speaking about Ukrainian territorial integrity, it means that we observe UN Charter, UN resolutions and all the values of international public law.
10:15That's how it goes.
10:17That's the way we protect our territorial integrity.
10:21And also, it's easy to rebook.
10:24It's easy to scold small countries like Serbia, which are not a member of the club.
10:32Because you have a usual suspect.
10:34You have always a good culprit for everything.
10:39And even the commissioner was saying,
10:41it's not fair, it's not good, it's not nice if he goes to Moscow.
10:46I had to go.
10:47I had to take care of vital issues for my people and for my country.
10:53That was of an utmost super interest of my people and of my country.
10:59But I didn't hear that she was mentioning, or anybody else was mentioning, many other European leaders.
11:06And I'm not speaking about Viktor Orban.
11:09Many other European leaders that were speaking to Putin in the meantime.
11:13And I went there after three years of war, not before that.
11:18And I wanted to discuss our bilateral issues.
11:21did not interfere into this big war agenda, big issues,
11:27because I know my place, I know the place of my country.
11:31And I think it's a very fair response.
11:34And as you can see, I say what I think to you here.
11:39I say the same in my country.
11:41I say it everywhere.
11:42You said last week in an interview with a German media outlet
11:47that Serbia was ready to sell ammunition to EU countries.
11:51Even if Ukraine received it.
11:53We were discussing that five years ago.
11:55We were discussing that five and four and three years ago.
11:58And I was saying to them, I was saying to them the following.
12:02Here's the story.
12:03We are able to produce, let's say, 155 to 160,000 of different type of shells.
12:14Motor shells, 60 millimeters, 80, 81, 82 millimeters, both Soviet NATO calibres, 120 millimeters.
12:22From all howitzer shells, 155, 152, tank, rocket artillery shells, 122, 128, whatever millimeters,
12:36which is still equal or a bit more than France.
12:42And I said to them, we have 30,000 people that are dependent on our ability to sell this ammunition to someone.
12:56Now it's a good market.
12:58Whatever we produce, we can sell it.
12:59But when we sell it, then we got, but no one mentioned that here, because it didn't fit to their story.
13:08We got two very strong statements from Russian foreign intelligence against Serbia and myself.
13:16Because they found some shells on Ukrainian side.
13:21Is that why they halted the exports in June?
13:24That was one of the reasons, because we didn't want to arm up any war infections.
13:31But now we have a problem.
13:35Because we need to sell it to someone, and we'll sell it to whomever we can in order to earn some money.
13:44But we'll try to take care, and not to see that ammunition in that war zone.
13:53But it happens from time to time.
13:56At the end, we'll have to pay our workers.
14:03Okay.
14:04So we've heard...
14:05Tell me, is there something that is not rational?
14:09No, no, absolutely.
14:10I'm not saying you're irrational.
14:11But I just wonder, what is the change of heart?
14:13When in June, you banned the exports, and now you're saying we're ready to...
14:19It's not a change.
14:20We need to survive.
14:21I'm not saying that we are going to give it to Russians or to Ukrainians.
14:25I say that we need to sell it to someone in the world.
14:28Okay.
14:28Speaking of survival, your country was once seen as a frontrunner in the race of EU membership.
14:34Before the war in Ukraine.
14:36Before the war in Ukraine.
14:37But now the EU commission is saying there's a backsliding of the rule of law in Serbia.
14:43Insufficient reform.
14:44And no detectable progress.
14:46It's not seen in reports.
14:48Now, my question is, is the EU too harsh on Serbia?
14:51I would like to say that, but I promised myself not to do it.
15:00Yes, I do my best to keep my word.
15:05They asked me to change my narrative, otherwise I would say so.
15:09But I'm not going to do it.
15:13It means that now let me use this great, even Euronews bureaucratic language.
15:21And you can see that I'm still able to learn it.
15:28Serbia is very much committed to its EU path.
15:32And we'll take it in a very serious and responsible way.
15:37All the remarks, all the demands from EU partners and considering it will change our attitudes
15:48and our stances on different issues and will improve our behavior in the future.
15:55And we hope that European Union will notice it.
15:58Thank you very much.
15:59EU Commissioner Kost said that Serbia has too much presidential power.
16:09And that everything about enlargement is done by the president and that's bad.
16:17What do you say?
16:17What do you say to that?
16:18Fully agree with her.
16:22See?
16:23Learned the lesson.
16:26Okay.
16:27Good news is I'm not going to be the president within a year and month, 13 months.
16:37That's the good news.
16:38There are some other people who will do it.
16:41Okay.
16:41I want to talk, one question if I may, sir, about the domestic situation.
16:46We've been seeing protests for a year now.
16:50We've been seeing protests for 11 years in Serbia.
16:55All right.
16:56Following the Novi Sad catastrophe, my question is, are you worried that things might get out
17:05of hand, that there is an escalation of the protests?
17:08And also, if I may, do you think that the country is changing faster than you have thought?
17:16Our country, I'm amazed with the changes that we provided.
17:24You, dear Stefan, come to Belgrade.
17:26You wouldn't recognize the city, not from your own experience, but not even from the photos you've seen.
17:34Each time, let's say, my friend Mario David is coming to Belgrade, he has to realize and to acknowledge that
17:43he hasn't seen such a big improvement and changes almost in any other country, not only in our region.
17:54According to IMF anticipation, Serbia is going to have the biggest growth rate almost in an entire
18:04Europe in the next four years.
18:07Speaking about protests, I was facing protests since I became the Prime Minister in 2014.
18:13Before that, I was Deputy Prime Minister for two years.
18:15Since then, we had maybe altogether six months without protests, but even having in mind all this stuff,
18:26we were progressing well with good growth rates.
18:30Also, I need to tell you one thing.
18:32When I became the Prime Minister, public debt, just to see how disciplined we were,
18:37public debt-to-GDP ratio in Serbia was 79%.
18:41Now it's 43%, twice less than average European public debt-to-GDP ratio.
18:49And for the first time in our history, and the only country in an entire region,
18:54we got an investment grade from Fitch, and we are getting it from Standard as well,
18:59and I believe within six months from Moody's as well.
19:03It speaks for itself.
19:05And speaking about the reports, you'll see everything about economy and fiscal and financial stability.
19:15Great grades.
19:16Great marks, which is of and utmost importance for the people, for the citizens.
19:21And I really mean, I'll put my jokes aside,
19:25I really mean that we need many things to do regarding rule of law.
19:32I'm very ready to participate in that process, or at least to be helpful to the government.
19:37And I think that Serbia has long legs, and that we can overtake all the frontrunners of today,
19:46and that we can join the European Union relatively soon.
19:49Alexander Vucic, President of Serbia, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
19:53Thanks a lot.
19:55Thank you.
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