Explore the shocking true story of Larry Ray, who manipulated and brainwashed students at Sarah Lawrence College into an abusive sex cult. This unnerving documentary delves into the devastating impact on the students' lives and their families. Discover the dark secrets behind one of the most notorious college cults.
sex-lies-and-the-college-cult documentary true-crime cult larry-ray sarah-lawrence-college psychological-thriller drama
#SexLiesAndTheCollegeCult #TrueCrime #CollegeCult #FullMovie
sex-lies-and-the-college-cult documentary true-crime cult larry-ray sarah-lawrence-college psychological-thriller drama
#SexLiesAndTheCollegeCult #TrueCrime #CollegeCult #FullMovie
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PeopleTranscript
00:00:00Good morning, I'm Jeff Berman, U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York.
00:00:20Today we announce criminal charges against this man, Lawrence Ray, who for nearly a decade
00:00:27exploited and abused young women and men emotionally, physically and sexually for his own financial
00:00:34gain.
00:00:40Who is Larry Ray?
00:00:42Nobody really knows.
00:00:44Ray has been charged with nine counts, including sex trafficking, extortion, forced labor and
00:00:50money laundering.
00:00:55He was a master manipulator, a master con man, but every single relationship he had was
00:01:03based on a fraud.
00:01:08Larry has filled this void for the kids of having a parental figure that was there for
00:01:12them and wanted to listen to them.
00:01:18Investigators claim that Ray groomed the roommates, conducting therapy sessions.
00:01:24He would talk about how to be the best person that you can be.
00:01:27It's a weird theory called quest for potential.
00:01:30He manipulated them into making their worlds smaller and smaller until they were totally
00:01:36dependent upon him.
00:01:38How could these bright young students have gone along with this?
00:01:40Larry tells them they have to work all day.
00:01:43They become profit centers.
00:01:45He has them literally drain the bank accounts of their parents.
00:01:50Ray initially befriended his victims moving into their on-campus housing before encouraging
00:01:56them the summer after their sophomore year to move in with him to a Manhattan apartment.
00:02:01He would begin to instruct them to have sex with each other and do various things that
00:02:07they weren't comfortable with.
00:02:13Larry has to force her to continue being a prostitute.
00:02:17We're dealing with brain control, mind control.
00:02:21We're looking at a con artist on steroids.
00:02:27and we're looking at this very well.
00:02:38The next move is the most popular.
00:02:41So let's go see.
00:02:45i was looking for a story i could work on a friend of mine had gone to her five-year reunion
00:03:05at sarah lawrence people at the reunion were gossiping about these rumors about what had
00:03:10happened to some of these kids who they'd gone to school with and somebody had found this website
00:03:18it was pretty unsettling it had a lot of different headers that were called things like i poisoned
00:03:27people because my mother told me to or i am a liar and i am working for the government and there was
00:03:38a link to this video sunday march 22nd please talk audibly claudia it's sunday march 22nd this
00:03:48girl was sort of being interviewed start from the most current time backwards time and first
00:04:01are you making this by your own free will yes anybody pay you anybody threaten you no anybody
00:04:07coerced you no it begins with claudia saying i'm making this of my own free will which is first
00:04:14of all like if you have to say that you're probably not okay so when did you poison last
00:04:20and a man is off camera asking her questions in this deep voice an older man's voice
00:04:30so you're saying you put mercury on where on the doorknobs in the hospital
00:04:36your food
00:04:38other things i touched or anybody touched
00:04:43it was clear that something weird was going on
00:04:51my thinking about it turned from oh is claudia this like you know evil poisoner which was how
00:04:58the website presented her into something wrong is being done to her by this guy
00:05:03and you know that's the first time i kind of encountered larry ray
00:05:10i just started reaching out to people that were named on the website to talk to them about what had
00:05:20been going on with claudia and what had happened to her and i pitched it to new york magazine on the
00:05:26initial striking thing which was that a man moved into his daughter's dorm room
00:05:30sarah lawrence is a small liberal arts college in upstate new york where people are really dedicated
00:05:47to learning and are extremely intelligent it's a very hard school to get into it seems to attract
00:05:54young people who are interested in the arts interested in literature interested in theater maybe
00:05:59i wanted to study literature so i went there it was beautiful leafy green campus and it was not too
00:06:07far from the city
00:06:07tommy ray grew up in new jersey she was a really driven student she had this group of friends that
00:06:22she moved in with sophomore year into a campus housing and they were freestanding houses all kind
00:06:28of arranged in a row halfway from this little forest they were gonna have fun hang out make food
00:06:36together throw some parties classic sophomore year of college stuff
00:06:40daniel levin was from new jersey he was a kind of a shy kid but he was excited to make new friends he
00:06:53wanted to be a writer i believe then there's santos rosario which was talia's former boyfriend turned
00:06:59friend and roommate his parents owned a travel agency in the bronx small family business it was the american
00:07:07dream claudia was from los angeles she was super creative she liked to tell stories you know her
00:07:13friends from high school thought of her as gregarious and you know she'd also had a really sheltered kind
00:07:18of childhood and then there's isabella pollack she was from san antonio very far away from home
00:07:24she was pretty shy also pretty sheltered she and talia quickly really bonded and became like really close
00:07:32friends the group of students who were talia's housemates were you know 18 19 years old
00:07:44most of them from good families good academic backgrounds what's important to remember
00:07:54the human brain is not fully developed until you're 25 years old so that's a very vulnerable period
00:08:01they definitely were all trying to figure out who they were and where they belonged in this world
00:08:07at college kind of leaning on each other to try to figure out what they were supposed to be doing
00:08:12when talia showed up at sarah lawrence and met this group her dad was a central part of her
00:08:22conversations she would describe how he was this amazing smart person that she idolized
00:08:30he is extremely important person who had all these important connections in new york she painted him
00:08:37as someone who had been wrongly pursued by law enforcement because he had powerful enemies
00:08:44she described him as some political martyr who'd taken on corruption and been punished and was in jail
00:08:53when she was seven larry and talia's mother teresa got divorced and the custody dispute quickly turned
00:09:03extremely nasty years later talia refuses to live with her mom and at a certain point larry and talia
00:09:13essentially go on the run they're tracked down by u.s marshals and you know they burst through the door
00:09:19and arrest larry larry ray goes to jail for the child custody dispute the way that talia describes
00:09:28her father to her friends at sarah lawrence is that he's been wrongfully accused of this child custody
00:09:35dispute and shouldn't be in jail hates her mother for putting him there talia is obsessed with larry
00:09:42he is the perfect dad ever and he's been wrongfully convicted one day she basically says my dad is
00:09:48getting out of prison and you needed a place to kind of land after getting out of jail she was like
00:09:53yeah my dad's gonna come visit and maybe you know spend the night and yeah
00:09:57it's totally not unusual for parents to drop by colleges and even spend the night sometimes
00:10:09and then he kind of stayed
00:10:11i think the initial reaction was probably their gut reaction and should have been one that they listened
00:10:18to was like why is this grown man in our college dorm room this is weird but he sort of installed
00:10:25himself in the common room as like a father figure for the dorm
00:10:30i thought he was very cool very smart very composed and very inspirational he was very friendly
00:10:39and he seemed you know sort of very different from anyone like very magnetic charismatic kind of
00:10:46personality he'd make dinner for everyone or you'd order food these kind of lavish meals
00:10:53you know you're a college student that's awesome so kids would kind of hang out with him and listen
00:10:57to him talk and he'd give these almost sort of like lectures at night in the common room
00:11:01so i think that while their immediate reaction was like talia why did you just bring your father into
00:11:08our house quickly translated to talia i can't imagine your father not being in this house
00:11:12being in college is a uniquely vulnerable point in the life of a lot of people you're away from home
00:11:21for the first time you're in a strange place not exactly sure what you're doing it was it was really
00:11:29hard for me i i was not really prepared to live alone i had like never done laundry before going to
00:11:37college i had a lot of separation anxiety from my parents i just felt very sort of anchorless and
00:11:46anxious and didn't really have a good handle on myself
00:11:50larry sold himself as an expert in self-improvement some sort of combination of a life coach and
00:12:00therapist
00:12:01somebody tells you i got the answers and can do it in a confident way is in a position to exert
00:12:09under influence i have exactly the answer and i am the bridge to mental health for you and that can
00:12:17be powerful i'm having anxiety and all these problems and santos was like why don't you talk
00:12:24to larry he's great he's been helping me i ended up confiding in him a lot about issues that i have with
00:12:31my family my depression that i struggled with in high school larry really listened and really really
00:12:38seemed as though he actually very much wanted to help me
00:12:42i shared a lot of very personal things he spoke a lot about inspirational things like honesty
00:12:49principles science and philosophy i considered him a very honest and truthful person
00:12:56and initially i felt it was important to me to be a good person you know be like him be honest and be
00:13:04truthful
00:13:04you talk about how to be the best person that you can be and how everybody has a potential that they
00:13:15can achieve some weird theory called quest for potential
00:13:20he framed it as helping them optimize and helping them get over their insecurities
00:13:27and become happier more effective people larry promised young people who were very confused and
00:13:36felt alienated that he was the person who was going to pull them out of it he's helping them reveal
00:13:44hidden truths about themselves and changing the programming that they're evil parents and evil
00:13:50society all these things that were sort of done to them and he's intentionally changing their mindset
00:13:55it larry said that he had extensive military training in the mind and human behavior from different
00:14:03departments of the government so dod fbi cia dia marine corps
00:14:12the sort of climax of it would be these stories about his heroic past
00:14:19larry claimed to the kids that he helped negotiations to end the warnco's vote he claimed
00:14:26to have be related to al capone the list goes on he was very good at myth-making about himself
00:14:33i think if you were to sit larry ray down and ask him the question larry who are you
00:14:37i think he'd conned you in his own answer because i'm not sure larry ray knows who he really is larry ray
00:14:49is someone who can become whoever you want him to be and whoever he needs you to think he is
00:15:07larry ray is larry greco one thing it's the name he was born under larry grew up in brooklyn i mean if
00:15:21you hear him he's a quintessential brooklyn boy at a certain point his parents divorced and mom remarried
00:15:31a man named gordon ray and larry took his stepfather's last name he served in the military
00:15:38for 19 days he was discharged for reasons that are unclear he married his high school sweetheart teresa
00:15:49he's known a lot of people he's known a lot of connected people he seems to sort of fit in where he
00:15:56goes whether that be law enforcement or reportedly he had some mafia connections in brooklyn he seemingly
00:16:05knew everybody really good friends with bernie carrick bernie carrick was the new york city police
00:16:12commissioner and he was somebody giuliani had brought up from just being an undercover cop into
00:16:19being like a you know high-ranking member of the administration in 1995 i met larry ray
00:16:28we would work out together we'd have coffee have lunch he was extremely charismatic he was very smart
00:16:38very very smart it's this sort of like mutually beneficial business relationship but it's also a
00:16:43real friendship larry's the best man at bernie's wedding looking back it's kind of strange you know
00:16:51you get married you have all these wedding photos and i've got a thousand wedding photos and not one
00:16:57has my best man in it they've all been discarded
00:17:01and larry ray helped carrick broker an introduction between rudy giuliani and michael gorbachev
00:17:15larry was flying into jfk and he comes out of the international terminal and he says burn i want you
00:17:22to meet president gorbachev i said okay all right i told the mayor i said gorbachev is here he'd love to
00:17:31see you if you have a minute and giuliani said absolutely bring him down for a politician like
00:17:40rudy giuliani that kind of photo op is worth more than its weight in gold it was pretty slick
00:18:01you've got this guy who just spent years in prison he lands in this dorm with these young vulnerable
00:18:09eager roommates of his daughter who adores him who basically set them up to like him
00:18:19and so for him you can see where his little wheels are turning and thinking oh
00:18:23isabella was clearly the closest to talia and the closest to larry
00:18:31and larry would often sleep in isabella's room
00:18:38ray told residents of the apartment that she needed help she needed supervision essentially you know
00:18:43instead of it being something sexual he was really just there to supervise her through the night i was
00:18:49pretty freaked out at first i didn't really know what to think i thought it was weird he got her
00:18:55like this coat that she really loved that was like significantly more elegant than her other clothing so she
00:19:02seemed to like actually open up more after meeting him he just said that he was helping her through some
00:19:08psychological issues or emotional issues she was having
00:19:17and then at the end of that semester isabella's parents get a phone call from larry
00:19:23he said if she comes home for christmas she's going to be reliving trauma and she's she's going to kill
00:19:34herself he told them that you know isabella didn't feel safe with him that was a complete shock he was
00:19:43breaking her from her family the purpose is separating you from friends and family any support system you may
00:19:50have had and obviously making the decision for her that she wasn't going to go home and isabella
00:19:56isn't protesting that so the family gets completely flummoxed like what the hell is going on here
00:20:04but their hands were kind of tied i mean you can't take an adult away from a situation she
00:20:11she wanted to be in and so it's the beginning of breaking everyone off from anyone else
00:20:27my name is lee chen i'm a businessman based primarily here in manhattan
00:20:31when i first remember meeting larry ray he was a person with a commanding presence
00:20:43we had engaged in several business dealings he seemed like a very uh kind person i thought that he uh
00:20:51was caring and he exhibited signs that he had a lot of compassion
00:20:57there was a time during christmas break larry had brought back to my apartment
00:21:06not only talia but also isabella pollack larry would take them out to these like lavish dinners
00:21:16he'd often pay in cash he had all this cash in his backpack
00:21:21larry is in control of everything what they eat where they go what they do
00:21:25and there's a really odd kind of dynamic between larry and isabella which seems really sexual even
00:21:32though it's supposedly all about helping her what he was doing was establishing full control
00:21:39he's away from the campus any like people saying what the hell is going on there
00:21:43and so he is reinforcing that separation from the outside world
00:22:03often i wasn't there because i've been traveling for business
00:22:06when i came back from the trip he had moved himself into my bedroom
00:22:13but it wasn't just him and it wasn't just him and talia i only had one bed in my bedroom
00:22:19it was him talia and isabella and they were sleeping in my bed all together
00:22:25larry's stroking isabella's hair on the bed and calling her his baby girl
00:22:37she's what 19 maybe 20 this man's in his 50s you know she's sleeping in his bed every night so he
00:22:46can help her whatever that means it was methodically choosing one person who became totally dependent on him
00:22:55in his bed and then could sort of systematically work through the rest of the people
00:23:15so
00:23:25larry has filled this void for the kids of having a parental figure that was there for them and
00:23:35wanted to listen to them and had time for them
00:23:41daniel was coming to him with some of his insecurities and he had a pretty normal question
00:23:48which was he was struggling with his sexuality you you know am i straight or gay
00:23:52larry in a very definitive way said you're not gay you know you're straight
00:24:00and once larry knew that larry was able to really use that against daniel
00:24:06and use that in daniel's relationship with his family and his father
00:24:13daniel's dad wrote to him in an email
00:24:14it's like you're hypnotized when i talk to you it's like what's up with you you know there was
00:24:21there was a real shift in these people's outward personalities
00:24:28isabella's aunt and her mother flew to new york and they had dinner with isabella and larry and larry
00:24:34which just seemed very much to be kind of in control of the conversation and isabella seemed to just kind
00:24:39of go along with whatever he said so you know they went back to san antonio
00:24:45the history of this case is replete with people trying their best to draw the attention of authorities
00:24:55some 50 year old guys living in the dorm it's strange some of the parents thought it was pretty
00:25:01weird especially as the situation progressed the parents said that they made complaints to the school
00:25:07administrators parents writing to speaking with sarah lawrence officials at least one student
00:25:17communicating with the dean of students we've got an issue here
00:25:37the next summer larry had started to bring more and more
00:26:07students into my home dan claudia and santos were kind of like the newer acolytes the ones who were
00:26:15kind of more recently falling under the sway of larry and seeking him out for guidance and so they
00:26:21sort of all end up living there larry isabella and talia shared the bedroom and in the living room
00:26:29we got two king-size blow-up mattresses which we would put on the ground and they would completely
00:26:34cover the ground and then there were two there was a longer couch and a shorter couch it's a one
00:26:40bedroom apartment but there's like multiple people sleeping there there's not enough space for everybody
00:26:44many times when i'd come back from a trip whether it be business or personal i'd find
00:26:54all these people in my living room and larry standing there like like a general talking to
00:27:01his assembled troops they're really now what i call a self-sealed system you're closed to the outside
00:27:08world you may be living in the middle of manhattan but you're in an altered reality
00:27:13larry ray took it upon himself to study cults he wanted to hone and refine his con skills and turn
00:27:25them into cult development skills he would start every morning by playing the song
00:27:42to wake them up and it would be like okay you know larry's in charge
00:27:46he was the day in day out ringleader of what this group was doing
00:27:58he would talk about how to be the best person that you can be and how everybody has a potential that
00:28:03they can achieve to tell you what to do he'd tell you what was wrong with you
00:28:08the sort of climax of it would be these night time sort of sessions where they would sit around and
00:28:21talk it sounded like there was very little sleep sitting around all hours of the night analyzing
00:28:28themselves and analyzing each other ad nauseum he was starting to test them in ways that would really push them
00:28:38the discussions would become like focused on one person this long drawn out period of interrogation
00:28:47basically with them at first denying and then eventually after hours confessing to having done
00:28:53something wrong he kept calling me a liar saying that what i was saying wasn't true and that i should
00:29:00give him a list of things that i did wrong and he would periodically have me affirm how i harmed him
00:29:06throughout the day or throughout the time that i knew him he was brainwashing them by forcing them to
00:29:15over and over again under under pressure admit to doing things that they hadn't done until they either
00:29:22believed it or said that they believed it and then instead of using those stories to help people feel
00:29:29better about themselves he turned them around and used them to humiliate people and to control them
00:29:36how could these bright young students have gone along with this it's the months of indoctrination to the
00:29:43point where they have internalized the beliefs and the behaviors that larry has been imparting to them
00:29:49pressure would ratchet up where it wouldn't just be about like you know how can we help this person's mental
00:29:57health it would be like what did this person do to disrupt the group
00:30:05personally i felt like everyone only spoke to me because larry
00:30:10you know told them to he actually told me they only spoke to me because he told them to multiple times
00:30:17so i felt very ostracized and on thin ice he manipulated them into making their worlds smaller and smaller
00:30:30until they were totally dependent upon him
00:30:43so
00:30:54The Bongo of Cachoa was a former boyfriend of Talia's.
00:31:21He spent a lot of time in the apartment.
00:31:23He was very much part of the group.
00:31:25Yvonne was just very, very easy to be around.
00:31:28His smile was electric.
00:31:30He had a gift for breaking tension and just making the mood light.
00:31:36He saw Larry as kind of a mentor and a guiding light who had looked after him.
00:31:42He believed that Larry was sort of this example of this heroic Marine that he wanted to emulate.
00:31:49He enlisted in the Marines, which Larry pushed him to do.
00:31:53Even though Larry was not in the Marines.
00:31:57And by the time of the students living in the apartment, he's come back from serving in Afghanistan.
00:32:04He'd been through some really traumatizing things in Afghanistan.
00:32:11He'd seen some people close to him die.
00:32:14And he was experiencing PTSD.
00:32:16I felt that Larry had placed himself in a position where Yvonne saw him as a factor in his treatment.
00:32:26And I think it's something that Larry took advantage of.
00:32:28Sometimes I'd be hanging out at the bottom.
00:32:32He'd just like pick up the phone.
00:32:33Yes, yes, boom, hang up.
00:32:35And then he's like, gotta go.
00:32:37Be like, oh, he's gotta be ready at all times.
00:32:39He often played a role of sort of like a gopher.
00:32:45Larry would have him drive him around.
00:32:50As I was reporting a story, I spoke with Yvonne.
00:32:52When I talked to him, it was in 2019.
00:32:58He's helped me through a lot of, I mean, a lot of emotional battles that I had.
00:33:06Directing me and guiding me, I should say.
00:33:08He was there for me to help me sort of get my bearings again when I came back to the society.
00:33:14He kind of saw himself as on a mission for Larry.
00:33:23And it was his duty to, if Larry ever needed anything,
00:33:28in the same way as he would obey a commander in the military,
00:33:31he would do what Larry needed.
00:33:38As time passed, Larry began to also test them
00:33:44with physical violence.
00:33:46In the beginning, sort of small things
00:33:49that weren't necessarily scary, like shoving.
00:33:52And then as time went on,
00:33:54these things became actually violent.
00:33:59Larry described how, like,
00:34:01Aban had come to some sort of very critical turning point
00:34:05in his processing or therapy.
00:34:07And in order to push him towards the right decision,
00:34:10Larry, like, took the edge of a spatula
00:34:13and pressed into his neck and told him it was a knife
00:34:17and told him he was going to die
00:34:19and he should just let go of whatever psychological thing
00:34:23he was holding on to.
00:34:24Larry was an obsessive documentarian
00:34:33of what his life was comprised of
00:34:35and what the victims were doing
00:34:38and what they owed him.
00:34:40Larry would hit them
00:34:42or make them do things
00:34:45while simultaneously firing off questions
00:34:48and forcing them to admit things
00:34:49that they didn't even know existed
00:34:51until that second.
00:34:53I'm trying to parse again
00:34:56and wanting to meet them.
00:34:57I'm being honest.
00:34:58Me and me.
00:34:59The guy's sticking.
00:35:03Next, it's going to be the head of your.
00:35:05Do you understand?
00:35:06See this how it feels?
00:35:08What if I pick you up like that?
00:35:09I'm going to pick you up by your top?
00:35:12Huh?
00:35:13You're a grown man.
00:35:13I'm a grown man.
00:35:14I don't like what you did.
00:35:16I know.
00:35:18You hear me?
00:35:18Now, one more time
00:35:22and I'm going to split your tongue in here.
00:35:24You're doubting me, Danny?
00:35:25No.
00:35:30Larry Ray is the epitome
00:35:33of a malignant narcissist.
00:35:38He is vengeful.
00:35:41He is mean.
00:35:43He is motivated by power.
00:35:45And he is dangerous.
00:35:50These narcissists are so full of themselves
00:35:53and they want to record everything
00:35:55as proof of what they're able to accomplish.
00:36:01He was starting to advise them on their sex lives
00:36:05and begin to put pressure on them
00:36:07to be more open sexually.
00:36:09And I think a lot of it for Larry
00:36:13was about using sex
00:36:15as sort of a tool
00:36:17to destabilize them,
00:36:19make them uncomfortable.
00:36:21It was a tactic.
00:36:22It's a way to hook someone in.
00:36:25You know,
00:36:25how could you be more honored
00:36:27than to have the revered person
00:36:29wanting to have a sexual relationship?
00:36:32It's one of the deepest,
00:36:34most intimate ways to control someone.
00:36:36Larry came out of the bedroom
00:36:40and it was just us in the living room
00:36:41and, like, stood over me.
00:36:44Started grabbing himself,
00:36:46like, under his pants
00:36:48and started talking about,
00:36:50like, orgasms
00:36:51and how he could make me orgasm
00:36:53without touching.
00:36:55He also suggested that
00:36:56Dan and I have sex right there.
00:36:59And when he left,
00:37:00we did.
00:37:02And Yvonne was, like,
00:37:03next to us.
00:37:04Larry really targeted
00:37:07and humiliated Daniel
00:37:09because of his issue
00:37:11of sexual exploration.
00:37:17And he told Daniel
00:37:18to go in the other room
00:37:20and put on a dress.
00:37:21It's one of the women's dresses.
00:37:24And so, in front of everybody,
00:37:26he's making fun of him
00:37:28in this dress.
00:37:29And then he asked Isabella
00:37:35to bring out a sex toy
00:37:38and then told Daniel
00:37:40to try and put that
00:37:42into himself
00:37:44in front of the whole group.
00:37:46And they all sort of stood around
00:37:48making fun of him for this.
00:37:49You can imagine
00:37:52the trauma for Daniel
00:37:54to have to go through
00:37:56such an experience
00:37:57of shame and humiliation.
00:38:01He just got older and older.
00:38:04As it snowballed,
00:38:05it became this cult
00:38:07that he could completely control.
00:38:08Lee Chen is growing
00:38:16increasingly disturbed
00:38:17by what's happening here.
00:38:18And it's not just
00:38:19the mental and physical abuse
00:38:22he's witnessing,
00:38:23it's also what Larry's doing
00:38:24in his apartment.
00:38:29Larry had asked me
00:38:30to help him reorganize
00:38:31the apartment
00:38:32because it was a mess
00:38:33and repaint the walls
00:38:35of the foyer
00:38:35and remodel the bathroom.
00:38:37And it quickly devolves
00:38:40into Larry wanting
00:38:41to fix this one-bedroom apartment
00:38:42and it's up to these kids
00:38:44to fix it for him.
00:38:48I mean,
00:38:48Santos Rosario
00:38:49was a 19-year-old kid.
00:38:50He does not know
00:38:51how to fix walls
00:38:53or do manual labor
00:38:54or home improvement.
00:38:57Larry had completely changed
00:38:59the appearance of my apartment.
00:39:01He took down walls,
00:39:03painted the foyer pink,
00:39:05and left electrical wires
00:39:08hanging in the breeze.
00:39:11It was the most incredible thing
00:39:13I'd ever seen.
00:39:14Larry had never paid me
00:39:16any rent.
00:39:17I'd gotten completely fed up.
00:39:19And I told him,
00:39:21I don't want to hear it.
00:39:23And you have to get out.
00:39:26I sent him a 10-day notice
00:39:28to leave.
00:39:30That's when he changed
00:39:31the locks on my apartment
00:39:32so I could no longer
00:39:33get into my own home.
00:39:36I took Larry
00:39:37to the New York County
00:39:38Civil Court.
00:39:40It took me
00:39:41over three years
00:39:43to gain an eviction
00:39:44judgment.
00:39:46If somebody wrote
00:39:54a Larry Ray novel,
00:39:57it would never
00:39:58get published
00:39:59because your publisher
00:40:01would say,
00:40:02it's too much.
00:40:03It's too much.
00:40:04That can never happen.
00:40:06Never.
00:40:07You never get,
00:40:07nobody's going to believe this.
00:40:09So go back
00:40:10and do it all over again
00:40:11because it's not going to work.
00:40:12That's the only way
00:40:13to describe
00:40:14the insanity
00:40:15of Larry Ray's
00:40:18con ability,
00:40:20if you will.
00:40:24I think
00:40:24the way that Larry
00:40:26always wanted to be
00:40:28was the way
00:40:29that he portrayed himself
00:40:30to other people.
00:40:30He really wanted
00:40:31to be important.
00:40:34Over the course
00:40:35of the 90s,
00:40:36we can really see
00:40:37Larry and Bernie
00:40:38kind of riding high
00:40:39together.
00:40:39It's mutually beneficial
00:40:41where Carrick
00:40:42gets Larry's connections
00:40:44to meet influential people
00:40:46and kind of advance
00:40:47his rise.
00:40:49Meanwhile,
00:40:50Larry is using
00:40:51Carrick's influence
00:40:53for meeting
00:40:54as many powerful people
00:40:55as possible
00:40:55and playing them
00:40:56off each other.
00:40:57And then things
00:40:57kind of went south.
00:41:00Larry Ray
00:41:01does not discriminate
00:41:02on getting access
00:41:04to powerful players.
00:41:06And that includes
00:41:07organized crime members.
00:41:09Larry Ray
00:41:15served as a
00:41:16confidential source
00:41:17for the FBI
00:41:18talking about
00:41:19a $40 million
00:41:21Wall Street scheme.
00:41:24He's aware
00:41:24of a Wall Street
00:41:26fraud
00:41:27connected to
00:41:27the Gambino
00:41:28crime family.
00:41:30But Larry
00:41:31is putting himself
00:41:32out as informant
00:41:33to cover
00:41:34his own role
00:41:35in the scheme.
00:41:37and eventually
00:41:39the FBI
00:41:40catches on
00:41:41that,
00:41:41wait a minute,
00:41:42our informant
00:41:43is actually
00:41:44part of this crime.
00:41:4720 people
00:41:48arrested,
00:41:49including
00:41:49stockbrokers
00:41:50and alleged
00:41:51associates
00:41:52of the Gambino
00:41:53crime family.
00:41:55My cell phone
00:41:56rings,
00:41:57Larry calls me,
00:41:57tells me he's
00:41:58been arrested,
00:41:59and he wanted
00:42:00to see me
00:42:01and wanted me
00:42:02to help him.
00:42:03No,
00:42:06you don't
00:42:06understand.
00:42:06The FBI's
00:42:07got it wrong
00:42:08and all this
00:42:08other stuff.
00:42:10You know,
00:42:10can you call
00:42:11the U.S.
00:42:12attorney?
00:42:13Can you call
00:42:14a judge?
00:42:16I said,
00:42:16I'm not doing
00:42:17any of that.
00:42:19You know,
00:42:19you're indicted.
00:42:20I can't get involved.
00:42:21He sent us
00:42:27to five years
00:42:28of probation
00:42:28with the caveat
00:42:29that, you know,
00:42:30if he commits
00:42:30more crimes
00:42:31during this,
00:42:31he'll have people
00:42:32in prison.
00:42:33Larry doesn't
00:42:34take that well.
00:42:35In Larry Ray's
00:42:36mind,
00:42:36Bernie Kerik
00:42:37owed him.
00:42:38He made
00:42:39Bernie Kerik.
00:42:41Larry decides,
00:42:42I'm going to
00:42:42take out
00:42:43my revenge,
00:42:45and that takes
00:42:45the form
00:42:46of calling
00:42:47the media.
00:42:48He starts
00:42:48talking about
00:42:49ethics violations,
00:42:51um,
00:42:52that Bernie Kerik
00:42:52might be involved
00:42:53in.
00:42:54Ray was a
00:42:55one-time felon
00:42:56turned FBI
00:42:57informant,
00:42:57but he turned
00:42:58on Kerik,
00:42:59telling authorities
00:43:00how Kerik took
00:43:01$150,000
00:43:02in free apartment
00:43:04renovations
00:43:04from a mob-linked
00:43:06construction firm.
00:43:07Some of it was
00:43:08checks,
00:43:08some was cash.
00:43:09Kerik went
00:43:10to prison.
00:43:11I blame
00:43:12all of it
00:43:14on Larry Ray.
00:43:15He started
00:43:16the investigation
00:43:17that eventually
00:43:19resulted in me
00:43:20going to prison.
00:43:21and he was
00:43:22very proud
00:43:23of it.
00:43:39By the time
00:43:39Larry gets out
00:43:40of jail in 2010,
00:43:41he is completely
00:43:41alone.
00:43:42I think any
00:43:43sort of connection
00:43:44he used to have
00:43:45is gone.
00:43:45He is no longer
00:43:46of any importance
00:43:48in the city,
00:43:49but it's fascinating
00:43:52because the way
00:43:52that Talia
00:43:53described him
00:43:55to her friends
00:43:56her freshman year
00:43:57of college
00:43:58at Sarah Lawrence
00:43:58is that he still
00:44:00has that power.
00:44:02Larry pulls
00:44:03Bernie Kerik out
00:44:04when he starts
00:44:05telling the college
00:44:06students
00:44:07really powerful
00:44:08people coming
00:44:09after him.
00:44:24Santos Rosario,
00:44:27he had two sisters.
00:44:31Yalitza attended
00:44:32Columbia as an
00:44:33undergraduate.
00:44:38Felicia has gone
00:44:39to Harvard
00:44:40and she's now
00:44:42doing her medical
00:44:42residency in Los
00:44:43Angeles.
00:44:44She was well
00:44:45on her way
00:44:45to a successful
00:44:47life with a
00:44:48meaningful career.
00:44:50Santos had
00:44:51expressed interest
00:44:53in connecting
00:44:54Felicia with Larry
00:44:56because he felt
00:44:58Larry was helping
00:44:58him identify
00:45:00his issues
00:45:00and overcome
00:45:01them and he
00:45:02wanted his sister
00:45:03Felicia to get
00:45:04the same benefit.
00:45:09And, you know,
00:45:10she's introduced
00:45:11to Larry and begins
00:45:12talking to him
00:45:13at length
00:45:14on the phone.
00:45:20Felicia was
00:45:21essentially
00:45:22recruited and
00:45:23groomed
00:45:24long distance.
00:45:26We were on
00:45:28the phone
00:45:28together.
00:45:30Oh, I thought
00:45:30he was really
00:45:31nice, charming,
00:45:32smart.
00:45:35We ended up
00:45:36talking every day
00:45:37multiple times a
00:45:38day.
00:45:39So we were
00:45:40friendly.
00:45:40We talked about
00:45:41my siblings a lot
00:45:42because he was
00:45:43spending a lot of
00:45:43time with them.
00:45:47Then it got to
00:45:48be romantic.
00:45:52And Larry
00:45:53plays off of
00:45:54that and gets
00:45:55her to kind
00:45:57of do things
00:45:59that she's not
00:45:59comfortable with.
00:46:02At first, he
00:46:03asked about how
00:46:03many people I
00:46:04slept with.
00:46:05Then what kind
00:46:06of sex did I
00:46:06like?
00:46:07Who did I like
00:46:07to sleep with?
00:46:08That was at
00:46:09first.
00:46:11He insisted
00:46:12that I was to
00:46:13go out and have
00:46:14sex with strangers.
00:46:16While she was
00:46:17still living in
00:46:18Los Angeles,
00:46:19working on her
00:46:20residency,
00:46:21Felicia started
00:46:22fulfilling these
00:46:23sexual requests
00:46:24for Larry.
00:46:25She believed
00:46:26she was in
00:46:26a relationship
00:46:27with him and
00:46:28she didn't want
00:46:29to do any of
00:46:29that and push
00:46:30back.
00:46:31But ultimately,
00:46:32he convinced
00:46:32her that she
00:46:33would do these
00:46:34things if she
00:46:34loved him.
00:46:36Larry also
00:46:37wanted to see
00:46:38me having sex
00:46:39with someone
00:46:40else and he
00:46:42wanted me to
00:46:42record it.
00:46:44Larry wouldn't
00:46:45stop asking.
00:46:47He was getting
00:46:48more angry and
00:46:49so I decided I
00:46:50would comply and
00:46:51appease him.
00:46:51I didn't want
00:46:54to, though.
00:46:57It's remarkable
00:46:58that someone
00:47:00like Felicia,
00:47:02with her education
00:47:05and her life
00:47:05experience,
00:47:07that she got
00:47:09sucked in so
00:47:11completely and
00:47:12so quickly.
00:47:13You have to ask
00:47:14yourself, how does
00:47:15that happen?
00:47:17Felicia was most
00:47:19likely in a
00:47:20vulnerable place at
00:47:21that point.
00:47:22She was in her
00:47:22medical residency.
00:47:24That's tough.
00:47:26Perhaps learned
00:47:27enough from
00:47:28Santos of the
00:47:29things that would
00:47:30make her more
00:47:31suggestible to his
00:47:33whatever he was
00:47:34saying on the
00:47:35phone to her.
00:47:36It really shows
00:47:37how good he was
00:47:38at what he did,
00:47:39which is what some
00:47:40of the people in
00:47:42his previous lives
00:47:43had said about him.
00:47:44He talked about
00:47:54how he had helped
00:47:55bring down
00:47:55Bernard Carrick
00:47:56and basically
00:47:58put him in jail
00:47:59and that now
00:48:00Bernard Carrick
00:48:01and others were
00:48:01after him
00:48:02and were trying
00:48:02to hurt him.
00:48:04He talked about
00:48:05how the people
00:48:05who were trying
00:48:06to hurt him
00:48:06would target
00:48:07everyone who
00:48:07he was associated
00:48:08with or cared
00:48:09about.
00:48:09I had become
00:48:11extremely paranoid.
00:48:12I was terrified
00:48:13that people were
00:48:14going to come
00:48:14and kill me.
00:48:16I was just scared
00:48:17out of my mind.
00:48:18I couldn't sleep.
00:48:19She goes from
00:48:19being somebody
00:48:20who is like
00:48:20on a really
00:48:22solid upward
00:48:22trajectory
00:48:23to somebody
00:48:26who has moved
00:48:27her mattress
00:48:29into the living room
00:48:30and installed
00:48:31cameras around
00:48:32her apartment
00:48:32that Larry
00:48:33encouraged her
00:48:34to buy
00:48:34and set up
00:48:35because she's
00:48:35afraid that people
00:48:36are out to get her.
00:48:38He really
00:48:38preys on this
00:48:39to induce her
00:48:40to leave
00:48:41her residency
00:48:42and abandon
00:48:44her dreams
00:48:46of being a doctor.
00:48:48She just drops
00:48:49all of this
00:48:50because she's
00:48:50afraid and in love
00:48:52and thinks that
00:48:52Larry can
00:48:53can protect her
00:48:54and so
00:48:57she moves
00:48:59to New York
00:49:00and moves
00:49:03into the apartment.
00:49:14Do you want
00:49:15to hurt yourself?
00:49:18What?
00:49:20I don't
00:49:21I don't want her
00:49:22I don't want her
00:49:23What?
00:49:24I don't want
00:49:24to hurt myself
00:49:25I don't know
00:49:28why it was so
00:49:28difficult to say that.
00:49:30Is that accurate?
00:49:33No.
00:49:33I don't know
00:49:33what to have.
00:49:34No I do.
00:49:35I still want to.
00:49:37And how have you
00:49:38been thinking
00:49:39about hurting yourself?
00:49:39These young people
00:49:41these young people
00:49:45were very much
00:49:46hostages
00:49:47in a very
00:49:47real sense.
00:49:50Santos went through
00:49:51some awful
00:49:51emotional
00:49:52physical
00:49:53psychological abuse.
00:49:57So there's
00:49:57a video
00:49:58of Santos
00:49:59slapping himself
00:50:01in the face
00:50:01while his sister
00:50:05Felicia
00:50:05is next to him
00:50:07on the couch
00:50:07and she's
00:50:08appears to be
00:50:09really unwell
00:50:10and is kind of
00:50:11freaking out.
00:50:12Santos spends
00:50:13an hour
00:50:15slapping himself
00:50:16in the face
00:50:17pretty hard.
00:50:19Stop talking
00:50:19Felicia.
00:50:20He was doing this
00:50:21because Larry
00:50:22told him it was
00:50:22the only way
00:50:23to get his sister
00:50:24Felicia
00:50:24to stop talking
00:50:25or to be quiet.
00:50:26I think Larry
00:50:27was able
00:50:28to justify
00:50:28in his brain
00:50:29as someone
00:50:29was helping me.
00:50:30Can I get up now?
00:50:32Felicia stop talking.
00:50:34Larry would
00:50:35pit one of his
00:50:36followers
00:50:36against another
00:50:37and use them
00:50:38to shame each other
00:50:39and police each other
00:50:41to just drill
00:50:42feelings of guilt
00:50:43and shame
00:50:44into the minds
00:50:46of his followers.
00:50:46I want to go
00:50:47change my clothes.
00:50:49Like I'm just
00:50:50I don't want
00:50:51to be in here
00:50:51so excuse me.
00:50:53Do not leave it.
00:50:54Do not leave the room
00:50:55Felicia.
00:50:55You're endangered
00:50:56to yourself
00:50:57and others clearly.
00:50:58Felicia was favored
00:51:00early on
00:51:02which can make
00:51:03you feel very special
00:51:04like oh
00:51:05this incredible man
00:51:06is in a relationship
00:51:08with me.
00:51:11And then he just
00:51:12most brutally
00:51:13destroyed her.
00:51:17Watching Larry
00:51:18physically overpower
00:51:19her and physically
00:51:20restrain her
00:51:21and restrain her
00:51:23really in every way
00:51:24physically and
00:51:25emotionally.
00:51:26It was a long
00:51:28drawn out
00:51:29tortured
00:51:29conditioning period.
00:51:31Are you going to behave?
00:51:40I was terrified.
00:51:42He said he would
00:51:43help me.
00:51:44I felt it was
00:51:45too much for me.
00:51:47The concept of being
00:51:48that bad of a person
00:51:49was just intolerable.
00:51:50then I went ahead
00:51:56and I tried
00:51:58to end it.
00:52:01I was in the bathroom
00:52:02and I saw a bottle
00:52:03of pills.
00:52:07I hear a pill bottle
00:52:08opening
00:52:09and closing.
00:52:11and then Larry
00:52:18and then Larry
00:52:18had gotten up.
00:52:20He realized
00:52:20I was out of bed
00:52:21and he came
00:52:23slammed the door
00:52:24open from the bathroom
00:52:25and then yanked me
00:52:26by the hair
00:52:26and then said to Isabella
00:52:30don't let this
00:52:31fucking cunt
00:52:32kill herself
00:52:32in my apartment.
00:52:33At least three
00:52:42of the women
00:52:43tried to commit
00:52:44suicide.
00:52:48And that's not
00:52:50surprising given
00:52:51what they were
00:52:51enduring.
00:52:53It's beyond
00:52:53comprehension
00:52:54what was being
00:52:55done to them
00:52:55and of course
00:52:57it seems only
00:52:58natural that
00:52:58they would reach
00:52:59a point
00:53:00where they
00:53:00just couldn't
00:53:00take it anymore.
00:53:04Suicide becomes
00:53:05an overriding
00:53:06theme
00:53:06where Larry
00:53:08tells them
00:53:09all of you
00:53:10are prone
00:53:10to suicide.
00:53:11There's been
00:53:12so many suicide
00:53:13attempts among you.
00:53:15You are all
00:53:16uniquely at risk
00:53:17and only I
00:53:19can save you.
00:53:29to an extent
00:53:44pretty much
00:53:45all of us
00:53:46had PTSD.
00:53:47It's somewhere
00:53:48around 20 guys
00:53:49since 2011
00:53:51who committed
00:53:53suicide.
00:53:56Both people
00:53:57who were more
00:53:58close to me
00:53:59and then people
00:53:59who were like
00:54:00in my unit
00:54:00as a whole.
00:54:01One of the
00:54:02primary symptoms
00:54:03of PTSD
00:54:04and associated
00:54:04with combat
00:54:05trauma is
00:54:05paranoia and
00:54:06hyper-awareness
00:54:07basically.
00:54:09For Iban it
00:54:09definitely didn't
00:54:10seem like that
00:54:11was the main
00:54:12driver.
00:54:13It seemed like
00:54:14it was the
00:54:14thoughts that
00:54:15Larry had put
00:54:16in his head
00:54:16that always
00:54:17somebody was
00:54:18out to get
00:54:19him.
00:54:20When I spoke
00:54:21to Iban he
00:54:22sounded rational
00:54:23and coherent
00:54:23and yet he was
00:54:25talking about
00:54:25something that
00:54:26seemed very
00:54:26divorced from
00:54:27reality.
00:54:29Did you ever
00:54:31see Larry
00:54:32targeted by
00:54:33governmental
00:54:34forces?
00:54:35While we were
00:54:36in the
00:54:36York we were
00:54:36definitely
00:54:37being followed.
00:54:38I was a driver
00:54:39for him for a
00:54:41while and he
00:54:43was being
00:54:43followed on the
00:54:44streets.
00:54:45Sometimes we
00:54:45would see them
00:54:46and other times
00:54:47we didn't see
00:54:48anything but
00:54:49there were times
00:54:50where it was
00:54:51obvious that he
00:54:51was being
00:54:52followed.
00:54:52he was just
00:54:54like oh you
00:54:55know with
00:54:55Larry Bernard
00:54:56Carrick's still
00:54:57out to get
00:54:57him.
00:54:59It was this
00:54:59paranoid rambling
00:55:00of people
00:55:02associated with
00:55:02Larry who
00:55:03don't like him
00:55:04or out to get
00:55:05Iban as well.
00:55:05so in spring of
00:55:222013 a number of
00:55:24these students go
00:55:26down to North
00:55:26Carolina where
00:55:27Larry's stepfather
00:55:28Gordon Ray lives
00:55:29and Talia is also
00:55:31living there and
00:55:33Gordon has a
00:55:34property.
00:55:35It's a large
00:55:36semi-rural house
00:55:37in Pinehurst,
00:55:39North Carolina
00:55:39which is a
00:55:40small town.
00:55:43Santos and
00:55:44Dan stay in
00:55:45New York but
00:55:46the rest of them
00:55:47Claudia, Yalitza,
00:55:49Felicia, Isabella
00:55:50are all down in
00:55:51Pinehurst and
00:55:52they're doing
00:55:55hard labor.
00:55:59Health leaders
00:56:00typically exploit
00:56:02their followers and
00:56:03whatever way they
00:56:03can.
00:56:05So it's not
00:56:06surprising that
00:56:07Larry would go
00:56:08that route of
00:56:09getting free labor.
00:56:11This property is a
00:56:13total mess.
00:56:14Essentially they rip
00:56:14up all this sod,
00:56:16they have to put
00:56:16new sod down,
00:56:17they have to dig
00:56:17drainage ditches,
00:56:19they have to use
00:56:20backhoes and
00:56:21machinery, none of
00:56:22which they have any
00:56:23idea how to use.
00:56:24And Larry tells
00:56:25them they have to
00:56:26like work all day
00:56:27and they eat when
00:56:28he tells them to eat
00:56:29and they can't come
00:56:31inside until this
00:56:32work is done.
00:56:34Here we really see
00:56:35the hierarchy even
00:56:36within the group
00:56:37where Talia is the
00:56:39most favored among
00:56:40them.
00:56:41So while they're all
00:56:42outside working,
00:56:42she's inside, you
00:56:43know, working on her
00:56:44application to law
00:56:45school, you know,
00:56:46she's not out in the
00:56:47fields.
00:56:49They got to get it
00:56:50down from the other
00:56:50side and then to get
00:56:52the water to run
00:56:54inside it.
00:56:55But you believe this
00:56:56overflowed right onto
00:56:57the lawn.
00:56:58Let's see.
00:57:04You've been hurting me
00:57:05for so long behind my
00:57:06back, doing damaging
00:57:07things, destroying
00:57:08property.
00:57:09I don't want to.
00:57:11You don't want to
00:57:11what?
00:57:11I don't want to
00:57:12damage things.
00:57:14Well, when's the last
00:57:15time you damaged
00:57:15something?
00:57:16Larry had a background
00:57:17of extorting people
00:57:18and financial fraud.
00:57:20He created this whole
00:57:21scene where he convinced
00:57:23them that they broke
00:57:24everything of his and
00:57:25then he'd come up with
00:57:26these amounts, you
00:57:27know, like thousands
00:57:28of dollars that they
00:57:29supposedly owed him.
00:57:30I was not trying.
00:57:33But if you're trying to
00:57:34damage it and do, then
00:57:36aren't you doing that?
00:57:37Yes.
00:57:39We were talking about
00:57:40how much damage I did
00:57:41and I gave him the
00:57:42estimate of $100,000.
00:57:46And he said it sounds
00:57:47about right.
00:57:49And I said it's
00:57:50probably more.
00:57:51And he looks
00:57:52like, yeah, it's
00:57:55probably more.
00:57:57The group was
00:57:58firmly under Larry
00:58:00Ray's thumb and
00:58:02completely sold on the
00:58:03idea that they owed
00:58:04him this massive debt
00:58:06that they really would
00:58:06never be able to work
00:58:08off.
00:58:10And these things
00:58:11they'd done became a
00:58:12mechanism for Larry to
00:58:14extract money from
00:58:15their families.
00:58:17They began to go to
00:58:18their family and
00:58:18friends and tell
00:58:21them that they had
00:58:22done something wrong
00:58:23and that they had to
00:58:24pay him back and
00:58:24could they help them
00:58:25out?
00:58:26You know, at one point,
00:58:27the Rosario parents,
00:58:28they weren't especially
00:58:29wealthy.
00:58:29They had managed to
00:58:30save enough money to
00:58:32buy a small house.
00:58:34And they ended up
00:58:36giving six-figure
00:58:37amounts to Larry.
00:58:42There was one day when
00:58:43Santos was on the phone
00:58:44with Talia about how to
00:58:46get his parents to give
00:58:47him money to make
00:58:48repairs.
00:58:49And occasionally,
00:58:50Talia would hand the
00:58:51phone to Larry and Larry
00:58:52would talk to Santos.
00:58:53Santos, it was like a
00:58:55large amount of money,
00:58:57like $20,000, around
00:58:59$20,000.
00:59:01Santos succeeded.
00:59:03And I remember Larry
00:59:05talking to him and
00:59:06saying, good job.
00:59:07See, doesn't that feel
00:59:09better?
00:59:09You know, making repairs
00:59:10is the right thing to
00:59:11do.
00:59:12That kind of thing.
00:59:13They become profit
00:59:15centers.
00:59:16And Larry Ray is
00:59:17exploiting that.
00:59:19He has them drain the
00:59:21bank accounts of their
00:59:22parents, in some cases
00:59:24the life savings, because
00:59:26they convince their
00:59:27parents, I have done
00:59:28this kind of damage.
00:59:30I owe this guy this
00:59:32kind of money.
00:59:32I'm in big trouble.
00:59:46According to the
00:59:47evidence that was
00:59:48presented, Claudia was
00:59:50in a situation where
00:59:52Larry was demanding
00:59:53thousands and
00:59:54thousands of dollars
00:59:55from her.
00:59:57And he managed to
00:59:59convince her that the
01:00:00only way she could
01:00:01possibly make the kind
01:00:02of money that she
01:00:04needed to make was to
01:00:05begin selling herself.
01:00:13So she began working
01:00:14as a prostitute.
01:00:18Larry convinced Claudia
01:00:19the money that she owes
01:00:20him, which at this
01:00:21point is, you know, into
01:00:22the hundreds of
01:00:23thousands of dollars for
01:00:24damaged machinery and
01:00:25pioneers.
01:00:26She begins sleeping with
01:00:28men for money, and Larry
01:00:29is, you know, intimately
01:00:31involved, pushing her to
01:00:35set up a website.
01:00:36and giving Larry the money.
01:00:49I wanted to repair what I
01:00:53believe I had done to
01:00:54Larry, and it was because I
01:00:56felt immense pressure from
01:00:57Larry to get money for
01:00:58him.
01:00:58She starts living in
01:01:06hotels, seeing clients in
01:01:08hotels, and any money
01:01:11except what's required to
01:01:13pay rent and for food is
01:01:14all given to Larry.
01:01:16She was just turned into
01:01:17this, like, money vehicle.
01:01:19It was no longer a person.
01:01:20She was just going hotel to
01:01:21a hotel, working constantly.
01:01:23The pressure just to make
01:01:27money was just constant and
01:01:31extremely intense.
01:01:33He would threaten to
01:01:34laughing on my clients.
01:01:36He would threaten me
01:01:37physically.
01:01:38He would threaten to put me
01:01:39in prison.
01:01:40Somebody had found this
01:01:52website that was pretty
01:01:54unsettling, and there was a
01:01:56link to this video.
01:01:57Speak audibly, Claudia.
01:01:58I didn't care about other
01:02:00people.
01:02:00Okay, so say again.
01:02:02I wanted to poison you, and
01:02:04I didn't care about other
01:02:05people.
01:02:06In that video, Claudia kind
01:02:08of appears to be on
01:02:09autopilot.
01:02:10Larry Ray would accuse
01:02:11Claudia of things that
01:02:12absolutely made no sense,
01:02:13like poisoning or
01:02:15conspiracies to kill him.
01:02:17And first, are you making
01:02:18this by your own free will?
01:02:20Yes.
01:02:22And if she said anything
01:02:23other than, yes, I did,
01:02:25then Larry would say, but
01:02:26that's not the truth.
01:02:27You have to tell the truth.
01:02:29And these conversations
01:02:29would be recorded.
01:02:31So the truth really meant
01:02:32generating blackmail
01:02:34material.
01:02:34We had poison gene
01:02:35multiple times with
01:02:37vials of poison.
01:02:40At the same time, you were
01:02:42trying to convince me that
01:02:43you were a good person and
01:02:44regretted ever doing this and
01:02:46that you would never do it
01:02:47again.
01:02:49Why are we doing that?
01:02:52So I think by the time she,
01:02:59like, admits to all these
01:02:59poisonings, she just wants to
01:03:01get out.
01:03:01She just wants to put distance
01:03:03between her and Larry and get
01:03:04out of the situation as fast as
01:03:05possibility.
01:03:12The money from Claudia's
01:03:14clients gets transferred to
01:03:15Isabella, and she becomes a
01:03:17crucial part of Larry's
01:03:19operation.
01:03:20Everyone in a cult to some
01:03:21degree becomes a perpetrator.
01:03:23In Isabella's case, she really
01:03:26became sort of the right-hand
01:03:28person to Larry.
01:03:29She was, in a sense, the
01:03:32bookkeeper for Claudia's
01:03:34prostitution.
01:03:36There were clear accounting
01:03:37ledgers kept that tell us the
01:03:40kind of income that Claudia was
01:03:42producing for Larry.
01:03:43And yet the amount of money that
01:03:45he says she owes him never seems
01:03:47to go down.
01:03:47You know, she ends up doing
01:03:55this for four years, no
01:04:00holidays, seeing up to five
01:04:03clients a day, and ends up giving
01:04:07him more than two million
01:04:08dollars.
01:04:09She didn't really have anything
01:04:18for herself.
01:04:20She lived in constant fear of
01:04:23Larry punishing her, and it
01:04:26seemed like almost everything she
01:04:28did during that time period was
01:04:30done in order to keep him happy.
01:04:32He was committed to a
01:04:46psychiatric facility, which, from
01:04:49his perspective, all that does
01:04:51is reinforce that everyone's out
01:04:53to get me narrative, right?
01:04:55And I'm sure Larry leaned into
01:04:56that.
01:04:57You know, I told you they'd come
01:04:58for you.
01:04:59Like, I don't know, I've been
01:04:59telling you this is going to
01:05:00happen to you.
01:05:01Now it's happened, and you
01:05:02can't trust anyone.
01:05:06He was kind of like the New
01:05:07Jersey city kid, and I was the,
01:05:10you know, they would call me
01:05:11mountain goat.
01:05:14And I was always like, no, you
01:05:15got to come out and experience
01:05:17nature, experience the woods.
01:05:19And my wife and I had been
01:05:21having conversations with him on
01:05:22the phone.
01:05:23We're like, hey, why don't you
01:05:23come move out to Oregon for a
01:05:25bit, see if you can, you know,
01:05:26do something different out here.
01:05:28He seemed, you know, pretty
01:05:29enthusiastic about it and
01:05:30everything, and he got cleared
01:05:32with his medical staff to come
01:05:33out and do it.
01:05:36But we kind of noticed
01:05:37shortly after him getting
01:05:39here, you know, he just seemed
01:05:42like there was no passion for
01:05:44anything, and there was just
01:05:46like nothing that he wanted to
01:05:47do.
01:05:49Oh, I was worried.
01:05:50For everyone who's in a cult,
01:06:02there are always doubts, but of
01:06:04course you can't express them.
01:06:06You can't say anything to anybody.
01:06:07So you put them on this shelf in
01:06:09the back of your head, and when
01:06:10that shelf breaks, you'll realize
01:06:12this is not healthy.
01:06:13There's something not right here.
01:06:15And then you may start to think
01:06:17about leaving.
01:06:24After a while, Daniel just
01:06:27reached a breaking point where
01:06:28he kind of broke through and
01:06:29realized, like, what Larry was
01:06:30sort of presenting as this, you
01:06:32know, enlightenment was just
01:06:34none of it was real.
01:06:36He was making it up as he was
01:06:37going along.
01:06:38This guy doesn't know what he's
01:06:38talking about, and shortly after
01:06:40that, he left.
01:06:44For Santos, I think he had a
01:06:46really hard time reckoning with
01:06:48the idea that Larry, someone that
01:06:50was there for him, someone that
01:06:51listened to him, someone that,
01:06:53like, justified some of his
01:06:55emotions about his family or his
01:06:57parents or his sisters, was
01:06:59actually a really bad person.
01:07:01At a certain point, Santos
01:07:03essentially hits his limit and
01:07:06stops talking to Larry.
01:07:08He feels abused, and he leaves.
01:07:11He sort of gets some low-wage
01:07:13jobs, but he cuts off contact.
01:07:27During the eviction process, it
01:07:29took over three years to gain
01:07:31judgment.
01:07:32And then to get the marshal to
01:07:35take action, it took another few
01:07:38years.
01:07:44It was finally a big relief to get
01:07:47Larry out of my home.
01:07:49You know, by this point, he's
01:07:50mostly living on a day-to-day basis
01:07:53with Isabella and Felicia.
01:07:56They spend some time in hotels,
01:07:59they stay in some Airbnbs, and
01:08:01eventually they land at a house in
01:08:04New Jersey, owned by his friend,
01:08:07Scott Mueller.
01:08:07There were very few spurts that
01:08:21Talia was not in contact every day,
01:08:23but it was practically every day,
01:08:25sometimes multiple times a day,
01:08:26especially with Isabella.
01:08:29Talia clearly comes out as a key
01:08:32player in the con.
01:08:34She bought it to the point that she
01:08:36sold it to other people and
01:08:38continued to believe the lie
01:08:40throughout the history of this case.
01:08:42This is already years into her being a
01:08:59prostitute.
01:08:59She ended up telling one of her
01:09:01clients in a moment of fear, but also
01:09:04I think trying to get out of the
01:09:06situation that she was in.
01:09:08Larry realized that something had
01:09:11happened, and he responds by showing
01:09:14up to one of her hotel rooms.
01:09:17Larry and Isabella became aware that
01:09:20Claudia had tipped off one of her
01:09:22clients to the fact that they named him
01:09:25on a website, exposing his involvement
01:09:28with Claudia, who was a prostitute.
01:09:31And he responds by showing up to one of
01:09:35her hotel rooms.
01:09:36Larry and Isabella came to Claudia's
01:09:41hotel room, and Larry tortured her over
01:09:45the course of a horrific night of abuse.
01:09:49He comes in and immediately starts
01:09:51berating her and hitting her and yelling
01:09:54at her for this simple task of trying to
01:09:57tell somebody what was happening to her.
01:10:00He told me to strip naked.
01:10:01I was physically bound to a chair.
01:10:06I could not leave.
01:10:08The way that Claudia described it,
01:10:10Isabella was in the room.
01:10:13I remember her saying that when Larry was
01:10:14pouring water over me and lowering my body
01:10:17temperature, she at one point was like,
01:10:19Claudia, you're such a faker.
01:10:21This water is room temperature.
01:10:22It's not even cold.
01:10:26Larry repeatedly suffocated Claudia with a
01:10:29plastic bag, but it was relentless, and it
01:10:32was painful, and it was terrifying.
01:10:36He ended up smothering me, choking me to
01:10:40the point of passing out.
01:10:43I was terrified.
01:10:45I was trembling.
01:10:47And it's just beyond cruelty.
01:10:49Destroying this perfectly normal student,
01:10:53force her to become a sex worker, and then not
01:10:56only take all the money, but torture her in
01:10:58between.
01:11:00At a certain point, they even ordered burgers
01:11:02and fries, and they were eating dinner while
01:11:05she was tied naked to a chair in front of them.
01:11:08And then the torture started all over again.
01:11:12And at the end of it, he finally unbound her
01:11:14from the chair, let her go.
01:11:16She slept for a few hours.
01:11:18Then she woke up and went back to work.
01:11:20And it wasn't very long after that.
01:11:27Claudia showed signs of finally becoming fed up with
01:11:32what she was being put through.
01:11:34And she confided in the same client about what was going
01:11:38on, and he provided her the escape that she desperately
01:11:42needed.
01:11:42He got her a train ticket.
01:11:49And she left the city.
01:11:51She got away.
01:11:53I mean, this is somebody who was giving, in some cases,
01:11:55over $100,000 a month directly to fund Larry and Isabella.
01:12:00They sent her a series of emails and trying to guilt trip
01:12:06and intimidate her into returning.
01:12:09But she didn't.
01:12:12And that's the beginning of the end of this story.
01:12:15I just started reaching out to people and people
01:12:25that knew Claudia really well, her family and friends.
01:12:28And they were like, none of us have talked to her
01:12:29for six years.
01:12:30I pretty soon was put in contact with Daniel Levin.
01:12:33He agreed to talk to me.
01:12:35And that was when it really became clear,
01:12:37like, this was, like, something really bad and really abusive.
01:12:41I felt like I had to get the story out there to try
01:12:43and get these people some help.
01:12:45So James Walsh and I published the article
01:12:47at the end of April 2019.
01:12:51Almost a decade from the time that Larry first walked
01:12:55into the dorm at Sarah Lawrence,
01:12:58this piece comes out in New York Magazine,
01:13:00this unbelievably wild tale.
01:13:03The story came out, and we were all in the newsroom,
01:13:06and all of us kind of started freaking out
01:13:08because it was a very weird story.
01:13:11And another repercussion of the publication of the article
01:13:16was that Isabella's mother and aunt and Felicia's mother
01:13:21went to New Jersey, and they knocked on the door,
01:13:24and they essentially tried to rescue their daughters.
01:13:28Larry apparently hid in the back of the house,
01:13:31and the daughters refused to come out.
01:13:33You know, even then, there was nothing that they could really do.
01:13:36These are still adults.
01:13:42So that New York Magazine article, thankfully,
01:13:45made its way to an FBI supervisor
01:13:47in the New York FBI field office.
01:13:49And that supervisor said, I think we need to look at this.
01:13:53And they proceeded to knock it out of the park,
01:13:55determining how much income Larry Ray had
01:13:59that was from sex trafficking,
01:14:02from depleting the bank accounts of the kids' parents.
01:14:06They acquired cell phone records.
01:14:10Their emails show them being controlled, confessing.
01:14:15Now, all kinds of things happening in references to violence.
01:14:18Then comes a search warrant of the residence in Piscataway, New Jersey.
01:14:28Early in the morning, Larry is in bed,
01:14:32and a team of federal agents and NYPD officers come into the house,
01:14:37place him under arrest, and begin interrogating him
01:14:40and going through everything in the house
01:14:44and seizing recordings of thousands of phone calls,
01:14:48videos, several dozen hard drives,
01:14:52several dozen cell phones, laptops,
01:14:54as well as handwritten ledgers and handwritten journals
01:14:58he seized from the students.
01:15:02And it is an agent's dream to have a search
01:15:05where that much documentation of illegality exists.
01:15:11The same documentation used to control and humiliate these kids
01:15:17was the same documentation used in court
01:15:19to absolutely nail Larry Ray.
01:15:24Good morning.
01:15:25I'm Jeff Berman, U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York.
01:15:28Today, we announce criminal charges against this man,
01:15:32Lawrence Ray,
01:15:34who for nearly a decade exploited and abused young women and men
01:15:39emotionally, physically, and sexually
01:15:41for his own financial gain.
01:15:45The indictment contained sex trafficking,
01:15:48sex trafficking conspiracy,
01:15:49racketeering conspiracy, extortion, money laundering,
01:15:52a vast set of charges.
01:15:55I heard about Larry being arrested
01:15:59on just a, um, like a Google News alert.
01:16:03Just popped up and said he was arrested,
01:16:05so I was worried about what Yvonne might do.
01:16:10Just because of his level of devotion towards him,
01:16:13that this looked like, in Larry's world,
01:16:15the culmination of,
01:16:16everyone's trying to get me, now they got him.
01:16:19And I had no idea, you know,
01:16:21what he had put in his head,
01:16:22what he should do.
01:16:25I went to bed,
01:16:30and then about 10.30, 11 o'clock at night,
01:16:32a, uh,
01:16:33here, you know,
01:16:34knock on the door,
01:16:35and I was Linn County Sheriff's Deputy.
01:16:38He initially asked if I know
01:16:40someone named Iban,
01:16:41because he obviously was not going to pronounce his name.
01:16:43And I was thinking,
01:16:44oh, crap, what did he do?
01:16:47But then he is asking about his tattoos
01:16:50or if he has any identifiable markers.
01:16:54So now I'm like,
01:16:55okay, like,
01:16:55what?
01:16:56What's going on?
01:16:58And I guess the point,
01:16:59it's like,
01:16:59oh, he was found dead.
01:17:05Now, to my knowledge,
01:17:06Yvonne tried to slit his wrists
01:17:08and was unsuccessful
01:17:10and then got up
01:17:11and walked into traffic
01:17:12and laid down
01:17:13on a highway.
01:17:14And it seemed like Vaughn
01:17:31created, like,
01:17:32a rabbit hole for himself
01:17:33that he couldn't get out of
01:17:35with that paranoia.
01:17:37At the end of the day,
01:17:41I think that it's all on Larry.
01:17:43I think that if it wasn't for him,
01:17:46Yvonne, you know,
01:17:46he might still have
01:17:47mental health struggles,
01:17:48but not to that degree.
01:17:50I absolutely blame Larry
01:17:52100% for Yvonne's death.
01:18:00Felicia was talking to the government,
01:18:02but she still essentially
01:18:04was on Larry's side.
01:18:06And then at a certain point,
01:18:07she kind of came to a realization
01:18:08and began actually cooperating
01:18:12and turned on Larry.
01:18:14Santos, he was played videos
01:18:16of what Larry had done to him.
01:18:18And then he just realized,
01:18:20like, I'm being abused.
01:18:21And he began cooperating as well.
01:18:22So Felicia, Santos,
01:18:25Yalitza, Claudia, and Dan,
01:18:27they all handed over documents
01:18:30and spent innumerable hours
01:18:31talking to the government.
01:18:34Isabella was initially described
01:18:35described as a victim.
01:18:38The government was hoping
01:18:40that she would also flip,
01:18:42probably expecting that she would,
01:18:44and she didn't.
01:18:44Headlines for you,
01:18:55this out of New York,
01:18:57a dad accused of running a sex cult
01:18:59from his daughter's dorm room.
01:19:01Remember this?
01:19:02He's still in court
01:19:02in the next half hour.
01:19:03Ray's charged with nine counts,
01:19:05including extortion,
01:19:06money laundering,
01:19:07and sex trafficking.
01:19:08The prosecutor called Ray
01:19:10a flight risk
01:19:10and a danger to the community.
01:19:12The government described
01:19:14Talia and Gordon Ray,
01:19:16Larry's stepfather,
01:19:18as co-conspirators,
01:19:19but neither have been charged.
01:19:22Talia is the ultimate true believer
01:19:23because not only has she
01:19:26continued to stick by her father,
01:19:29her father is a blood relative.
01:19:31And I think that may have figured
01:19:34into the prosecutive decisions here.
01:19:36The idea of charging a daughter
01:19:38for believing her father's lies,
01:19:41going back all the way to childhood,
01:19:44it could be too much for a jury.
01:19:48Just distracting from the case at hand.
01:19:51Larry appears to have essentially
01:19:53insulated his immediate family
01:19:56from the most incriminating parts
01:19:59of what he was doing.
01:20:01He had Isabella recording information
01:20:04about the money coming from Claudia,
01:20:05which makes her a direct accessory.
01:20:07Where there's a trial
01:20:24and people have to get up on the stand
01:20:26and talk about what they experienced,
01:20:29what they saw,
01:20:30what happened to them,
01:20:31I can't think of anything
01:20:32that could be harder, really.
01:20:34First of all,
01:20:43you have to sit there
01:20:45in front of your abuser.
01:20:46You probably haven't seen that person
01:20:48in perhaps years.
01:20:51To have that person looking at you,
01:20:53trying to shut you up with their eyes.
01:20:57They deserve awards
01:20:58because they're helping
01:21:00bring these people down.
01:21:01Larry Ray's trial
01:21:04was a jury trial.
01:21:05So you've got to convince
01:21:07a group of citizens
01:21:08beyond a reasonable doubt
01:21:10that these cult members
01:21:12were truly against their will,
01:21:14unable to consent
01:21:16to what was done to them.
01:21:19Larry recorded everything
01:21:22and we got to watch it.
01:21:24And it was really hard to watch
01:21:26because Larry's physically beating them.
01:21:28The more I heard,
01:21:31the more I realized
01:21:33that Larry Ray
01:21:34was far more of a demon
01:21:37than anyone ever imagined.
01:21:41I think the problem
01:21:42for the defense was
01:21:44no matter how you spin this,
01:21:46you're facing incredibly damaging videos
01:21:49of your client
01:21:50physically harming people.
01:21:52The witnesses were remarkably composed
01:22:01considering what they had gone through
01:22:03and the nature
01:22:05of what they were describing
01:22:06for the jury.
01:22:07The torture,
01:22:08the humiliation,
01:22:09the shame.
01:22:10So imagine
01:22:10we're this incredibly vulnerable person
01:22:13who was part of this
01:22:14and having to talk about
01:22:16what happened
01:22:17and what was done to you
01:22:18and to say that publicly,
01:22:20that's hard.
01:22:23That's tough.
01:22:24Claudia really had
01:22:25a pretty high burden
01:22:27because she was
01:22:28a sex trafficking victim.
01:22:30So it was not easy,
01:22:31I'm sure,
01:22:32for her to sit there
01:22:33and recount
01:22:34in laborious detail
01:22:36all of the things
01:22:37that had happened to her.
01:22:38All of a sudden,
01:22:39as Claudia is describing
01:22:41being a forced prostitute,
01:22:42one of Larry's lawyers
01:22:43stands up
01:22:44and asks for a break
01:22:45and usually during testimony
01:22:47that doesn't really happen.
01:22:50He seems to go through
01:22:52some kind of seizure
01:22:53in the courtroom
01:22:55right there.
01:22:57And he has to be
01:22:59carried out of the courthouse
01:23:00on a stretcher.
01:23:02And he's making, like,
01:23:03eye contact with people.
01:23:04Like, he's trying to, like,
01:23:05see who's there,
01:23:06how many people are around him
01:23:07as he gets pulled
01:23:08into the ambulance.
01:23:11In the witness room,
01:23:12you can audibly hear
01:23:13Claudia crying
01:23:14as we're all walking out
01:23:15trying to figure out
01:23:15what's happening.
01:23:19And I said,
01:23:20I know him.
01:23:21I know exactly
01:23:22what he's doing.
01:23:24He's trying to influence
01:23:25the jury.
01:23:26He's trying to create
01:23:27this self-pity thing.
01:23:30I said,
01:23:30he's doing it on purpose.
01:23:42As with anything
01:23:43related to Larry,
01:23:44you have to expect
01:23:46some kind of curveball.
01:23:47I mean,
01:23:47is he going to be able
01:23:48to, like,
01:23:48somehow,
01:23:49at the last minute,
01:23:50like,
01:23:51prolong this
01:23:52so that the victims
01:23:53no longer want to testify
01:23:54or they're unsettled?
01:23:55And what happens?
01:23:57You know,
01:23:57it didn't end up working.
01:23:58There were two seizures
01:23:59and then there weren't any more.
01:24:00in all the jury
01:24:13in all the jury
01:24:13only deliberated
01:24:14for four hours,
01:24:16which,
01:24:16for a trial that lasted a month
01:24:18and for as many counts
01:24:19as he was accused of,
01:24:21kind of speaks to
01:24:21where the jury was
01:24:22before they even got
01:24:23to the verdict room.
01:24:24It didn't take the jury
01:24:26very long
01:24:27to come back
01:24:27with a unanimous verdict
01:24:29that Larry was guilty
01:24:30on all counts.
01:24:32They knew it was coming.
01:24:34The court testimony
01:24:35was overwhelming.
01:24:37I knew he would be convicted.
01:24:40There is justice
01:24:41for the victims.
01:24:42They wanted Larry
01:24:43to get arrested
01:24:44and indicted
01:24:45and convicted
01:24:46and I think it was
01:24:47really powerful for them.
01:24:49They could now
01:24:50resume their lives.
01:24:51and they say justice
01:24:53has been served
01:24:54for him.
01:24:58There's nothing
01:24:59harsh enough
01:25:00that could happen
01:25:01to him
01:25:02based on what he did
01:25:03to those kids.
01:25:05There certainly
01:25:06have been
01:25:06other evil cult leaders
01:25:08but the extent
01:25:09of what he did
01:25:10and the amount of time
01:25:11he was allowed
01:25:12to do it
01:25:12with such
01:25:13concentration
01:25:14and precision
01:25:15that was
01:25:17almost beyond
01:25:18anything I've heard of.
01:25:20I don't think
01:25:21there's an ounce
01:25:21of regret.
01:25:24He just
01:25:24destroyed people's lives.
01:25:27He loved
01:25:28feeling powerful
01:25:29and I almost
01:25:30call him
01:25:31a power addict.
01:25:32The way that you
01:25:33can judge
01:25:34other people
01:25:34is how they treat
01:25:35other humans.
01:25:36Just a horrific
01:25:37individual.
01:25:42There's this
01:25:43inevitable question
01:25:44of why
01:25:46nothing was done
01:25:47earlier.
01:25:48the guilt
01:25:50that must be
01:25:51felt not only
01:25:52by Sarah Lawrence
01:25:52administrators
01:25:53but the guilt
01:25:54of the victim's
01:25:55parents
01:25:56must be painful.
01:25:58I have no trouble
01:25:59blaming
01:25:59Sarah Lawrence
01:26:01for letting somebody
01:26:02move into the dorm.
01:26:03What was Sarah Lawrence
01:26:04to do?
01:26:06They could have
01:26:06made sure he got
01:26:07out of the dorm
01:26:07but I'm not sure
01:26:08had they gotten him
01:26:10out of the dorm
01:26:10sooner anything
01:26:11would have been
01:26:11different.
01:26:12The really
01:26:13troublesome stuff
01:26:14happens later
01:26:15at the apartment
01:26:16on the Upper East
01:26:17Side.
01:26:19Larry Ray was
01:26:20one of the most
01:26:21skilled con artists
01:26:22I've seen
01:26:23in 25 years.
01:26:25There may not
01:26:25have been much
01:26:26more that you
01:26:27could have done.
01:26:29I think the biggest
01:26:29question about this
01:26:30case is why
01:26:32Larry Ray did
01:26:33what he did.
01:26:34In terms of
01:26:35what drove him
01:26:36I don't know
01:26:37if it's as simple
01:26:39as he wanted
01:26:41money and sex
01:26:42although I think
01:26:42he certainly did.
01:26:43he was like
01:26:45somebody who
01:26:45for decades
01:26:47was able to
01:26:47carve out
01:26:48a space
01:26:49for himself
01:26:50outside of
01:26:50the typical
01:26:51rules where
01:26:51he could
01:26:52exploit
01:26:53people's
01:26:53vulnerabilities
01:26:53and it was
01:26:56these exact
01:26:57same tools
01:26:58which eventually
01:26:59led to his
01:26:59downfall
01:27:00because he
01:27:00recorded his
01:27:02own crimes.
01:27:03Part of his
01:27:04defense was that
01:27:05he really believed
01:27:06the conspiracy
01:27:07and that these
01:27:08kids were
01:27:08bad actors
01:27:09working for
01:27:10Bernie Kerrig.
01:27:11whether he
01:27:12believed it
01:27:13or not
01:27:13it's hard
01:27:14to say
01:27:15why he
01:27:16would ever
01:27:17and how
01:27:18he could
01:27:18torture
01:27:20these young
01:27:21people so
01:27:22extensively
01:27:22in the ways
01:27:23that he did.
01:27:24can only
01:27:34follow
01:27:35in the ways
01:27:36we
01:27:37could
01:27:37we
01:27:38only
01:27:39can
01:27:39look
01:27:40at
01:27:41age
01:27:41can
01:27:41flower
01:27:42or
01:27:43can
01:27:44say
01:27:44sorry
01:27:45or
01:27:46can
01:27:46uh
01:27:46can
01:27:47it
01:27:48have
01:27:50can
01:27:51especially
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