- 3 months ago
WIRED Senior Culture Editor Manisha Krishnan sits down with singer/songwriter Ejae, an industry vet who's rocketed to a new tier of success on the back of her performance as Rumi and songwriting for Netflix's runaway cultural sensation, "KPop Demon Hunters."
Director: Lisandro Perez-Rey
Director of Photography: Chris Eustache
Editor: Michael Park
Talent: Ejae
Host: Manisha Krishnan
Line Producer: Jamie Rasmussen
Associate Producer: Brandon White
Production Manager: Peter Brunette
Production Coordinator: Rhyan Lark
Camera Operator: Jeremy Harris
Gaffer: Salif Soumahoro
Sound Mixer: Z Jadwick
Production Assistant: Caleb Clark
Post Production Supervisor: Christian Olguin
Post Production Coordinator: Stella Shortino
Supervising Editor: Eduardo Araujo
Assistant Editor: Billy Ward
Director: Lisandro Perez-Rey
Director of Photography: Chris Eustache
Editor: Michael Park
Talent: Ejae
Host: Manisha Krishnan
Line Producer: Jamie Rasmussen
Associate Producer: Brandon White
Production Manager: Peter Brunette
Production Coordinator: Rhyan Lark
Camera Operator: Jeremy Harris
Gaffer: Salif Soumahoro
Sound Mixer: Z Jadwick
Production Assistant: Caleb Clark
Post Production Supervisor: Christian Olguin
Post Production Coordinator: Stella Shortino
Supervising Editor: Eduardo Araujo
Assistant Editor: Billy Ward
Category
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TechTranscript
00:00I think there's a formula for a K-pop hit.
00:06Pookie is definitely important.
00:08The melody came quite instantly.
00:10We just looked at ourselves and like, EJ, is this a hit?
00:13We were just like, wow, I think this is a smash.
00:15Wired sat down with EJ.
00:16She's the singing voice behind Rumi and Netflix's wildly successful K-pop Demon Hunters.
00:22She co-wrote several songs on the soundtrack, including Golden.
00:25We talked about what it's like inside the K-pop machine
00:28and if there's a formula to writing a hit song.
00:30This is the big interview.
00:39So the movie came out in June.
00:41It's become Netflix's most watched project.
00:44There's Oscar buzz.
00:46What's it like knowing that every kid in America knows the words to your song?
00:50Oh my God.
00:51It's like a dream come true as a songwriter.
00:54And the fact that kids are like so blunt.
00:58So the fact that they love it, it's like I feel real proud of myself, you know?
01:02You got like the kid's stamp of approval.
01:03I got, mm-hmm, and it's hard to get kid's stamp of approval.
01:07So I feel like a cool person.
01:08Can you tell me a little bit of the story of Golden?
01:12And like, did you know it was going to be a hit right off the bat?
01:15I mean, in our little circle, yes, it was a hit.
01:18Sometimes, like, you know, I do hear from other songwriters, like when a hit happens, it happens quite fast.
01:23The lyric and the writing was a whole process, but the melody came quite instantly.
01:28Because I had the session with Mark, my co-writer, and I was like, Mark was so excited.
01:32I was like, oh my God, it was melody.
01:34And he heard it, he was like, oh my God, this is amazing.
01:37So when we finished the whole song and the lyrics, we just like looked at ourselves and like, we're just like, wow.
01:43EJ, is this a hit?
01:44Like, we're just like, wow, I think this is a smash.
01:46So yeah, amongst us, like, we thought it was a hit.
01:49Is there like a formula to making a K-pop hit or is it just different every time?
01:55I think for like K-pop hit, hooky is definitely important.
02:00A concept that everyone can relate to and it's kind of easy to sing.
02:04I think with K-pop hits though, melody is also very important, but you need different elements.
02:10You have to keep exciting the audience, whether there's a chord change or there's a melodic change or a rhythm change or something, second verse, it's a rap.
02:18You know, because again, K-pop idols are usually in groups.
02:21So you need different members singing different parts, showing off their role in the group.
02:27That's one thing, and also K-pop is very important, is choreography.
02:31There are a lot of songs in K-pop where the song got huge because of the choreography.
02:36So I think that comes hand in hand in K-pop.
02:38There is a general formula of like, if you start on one, on the verse, start on like the upbeat, on the pre, and then the chorus come in before or something.
02:48Like, it should come in differently.
02:49And also like, melodically, like if you start here, kind of in the pre-chorus, go higher, and then the chorus come back to the verse or like, go higher.
02:59You know, there's like a formula to that.
03:01So I think with Golden too, it kind of followed that formula.
03:03Golden was actually quite interesting of being a hit because right now, a lot of the pop hits are quite in the same range.
03:10It's more like lyrical puns and funny or concepts, but the melodies are quite easy to listen to, whereas Golden is very melodic, right?
03:21But I do still think in pop and global hits in general, melody is king, 100%.
03:27Nirvana is a huge example of that.
03:29Teen Spirit, he's saying gibberish.
03:32It's definitely not what I expected you to say.
03:33No, but seriously, it's like mosquito.
03:36It's like literally, but the melody is so good.
03:41And when your melody is amazing, and for me, I look up to Max Martin so much.
03:45He has like incredible melodies.
03:47It's just like, I have so much respect for Taylor Swift and Max Martin.
03:51That synergy is just amazing.
03:54So I think in university, when the concept is really good and it's easy to say, and also when there's a good melody and a great message,
04:03you have a hit, I think.
04:05There's been sort of a lot of talk right now about AI's infiltration into songwriting and just artistry in general.
04:13Do you have any thoughts on that?
04:15Like, did you use it at all for the movie?
04:17No.
04:18One thing I find so interesting, so fascinating, is like, people are like, oh, like, it's an animated character and it's a girl group and they're singing.
04:27It's AI.
04:28Like, why is this AI girl group becoming number one and stuff like that, right?
04:31Like, it's hurtful because we work so hard.
04:35Like, I'm a singer.
04:36I'm not an AI.
04:37As a songwriter, like, you've kind of been more behind the scenes.
04:40What is your relationship with fame right now?
04:42Like, do you consider yourself famous?
04:44No.
04:46I consider the song famous, which I love.
04:50Fame is a tricky thing.
04:51You know, I was a K-pop trainee myself and my grandpa's also an actor.
04:57So I've seen fame in different angles and it's very beautiful in the front, you know, but it can get very, very dark.
05:06I feel like fame is definitely not for the faint heart.
05:10And so I'm trying to navigate through it.
05:13Suddenly getting all this attention is quite, it's very new.
05:18It's, I can't quite say it's natural for me, to be honest.
05:23I love being behind the scenes and working with people behind the scenes.
05:28But, yeah, I'm trying to get used to it.
05:30I was listening to an interview with Maggie Kang and she was saying how it took her years to even be able to pitch this movie and she didn't come across any, like, animated Korean movies.
05:40What does it mean to have this breakthrough moment and so much success and for that to be an Asian story and a Korean story?
05:47Oh, my God.
05:48It means the world.
05:49It means so much as a Korean American, Asian American woman.
05:53And it just feels so cool to be finally, like, portrayed as not the typical portrayal of Asian women, I feel like, which is, like, what do you call it, like, subservient.
06:02Yeah, and, like, quiet and passive and always, like, listening.
06:07Because I'm not really, like, I'm quite, like, outspoken.
06:09I'm quite blunt.
06:11First of all, it's a superhero movie about Korean women.
06:14And they're, like, so funny.
06:17They're goofy.
06:17They're not just so only strong and badass, but, like, they, like, eat their food like crazy.
06:22I do that all the time.
06:23Like, we binge on our food and just, like, I think that's what I think is beautiful about the film, portraying that side of it, too.
06:30Seeing that as cool, you know.
06:32Obviously, like, K-pop has been huge for a long time, but this is introducing so many new people to it.
06:39Do you feel, like, I don't know, how do you feel about that?
06:42Do you worry about it becoming, like, diluted?
06:45Like, is there concerns around authenticity?
06:48No, not at all.
06:50Because, again, this film, like, there are a lot of Koreans that are a part of it, you know.
06:55I'm one of them, you know.
06:56I wrote all the Korean lyrics except for Soda Pop.
07:00Because I'm bilingual, I always try to make sure that the end sentence or end rhyme of the Korean lyrics rhymes with the English lyrics.
07:08So, Golden, for example.
07:11Gonna be, gonna be golden.
07:13You only get it soon.
07:15It rhymes.
07:16And it makes sense.
07:17So, I think that was another thing that I think people appreciated, probably.
07:22I mean, I liked it.
07:23So, what are your favorite, sort of, like, Korean Easter eggs in the movie?
07:30There's so many.
07:31For example, it's very, very small, but, like, the scene where Rumi, like, loses her voice and she, like, runs out.
07:37And then, Neera and Zoe are in, like, this restaurant and they were in their sweatpants.
07:42And they're, like, drinking, they're eating soup.
07:45And the fact that it's not, like, the typical bulgogi food, it's, like, kubbap, which is, Koreans would know.
07:51And the way, like, the Korean kimchi radish was in, like, the way that the chopstick were put, it was so authentic.
07:58So, and those little details is what I think the Korean people, the Korean people definitely appreciated.
08:03Oh, another one.
08:05Easter egg.
08:05I love when they say, like, in between.
08:11That's so, that means, like, let's go.
08:13I love that.
08:13I feel like every language has a version of it.
08:15Yes, 100%.
08:16And for me, when I saw that, I was like, oh, my God, I do that all the time.
08:19So, that was such a beautiful surprise.
08:22I think another one was, um, that actually people don't notice that much is the fact that in the plane, they're, like, sitting on the floor.
08:29And they don't really sit on the couch.
08:32Korean, I feel like, I noticed with my friends, like, we sit on the floor and eat.
08:36That was a really cool detail.
08:38And the way Mira sits in that scene that I was talking about earlier, where they're eating that stew.
08:43Her, her, I can't do it right now.
08:45Her leg's, like, up.
08:47She's eating, like, this.
08:48Yeah.
08:49But, yeah.
08:50That was so Korean.
08:51That's such a Korean stance, which I do all the time.
08:55I want to go back to you being a trainee for, um, SM Entertainment.
08:59And, like, so how old were you when that happened?
09:03Can you, like, tell me a little bit about this world?
09:05Because I find it so fascinating.
09:06It is fascinating.
09:08It's still fascinating for me, too.
09:10My dream to become a singer was, like, three, four.
09:14And then I started auditioning around, around 10 or 11.
09:17And then one of them was SM.
09:19And I got in.
09:21And you start training quite immediately.
09:25Um, you learn how to dance, sing, jazz dance, rap, Chinese, Japanese.
09:30Like, all thing, all day, literally.
09:33Every couple months, there would be, like, showcase of, like, showcasing what you've learned.
09:39Every Monday, every Sunday, actually, all the trainees would join in one room.
09:43And we would go in front of the camera and sing and speak our Chinese and do our dance moves.
09:48So it was, like, intense, I'm not going to lie.
09:51What was the criticism like?
09:53Like, was it harsh?
09:54How do you cope with that at a young age?
09:58Damn.
09:58I don't know how, what, I don't think I knew what coping meant at that age, right?
10:04We just take it literally.
10:05Um, especially during, when you're 11.
10:09When you're going through puberty, it's when, like, girls are so sensitive.
10:12It wasn't easy.
10:13Not that I lie.
10:13It wasn't easy.
10:15It's very competitive.
10:16And you're kind of trying to do this job that's essentially an adult job.
10:20You know what I mean?
10:20And all I could do was work hard and always try to put my best foot forward.
10:26And always, I was craving for a compliment.
10:29That was constant.
10:31Like, oh, you did so good today.
10:33I just wanted something.
10:34Did you get those very often?
10:36Not really.
10:36I tried to, um, you did, you got better or something, but they're, it's very objective.
10:43Like, looking at it now as, like, an adult, I understand the reason behind certain things
10:50when it comes to marketing or something like that.
10:53But at a young age, it's like, it's not easy to hear.
10:55I'm glad the fame is coming now than it is when I was a kid.
11:01So you were a trainee for 10 years?
11:03Mm-hmm.
11:04A little over, actually.
11:05Like, 12.
11:06What kind of made you walk away from it?
11:08And were you expecting to, like, debut in a group?
11:11Like, during that time, did you come close to that?
11:14Yeah, I was supposed to debut, and, uh, that didn't happen.
11:18And then I, I discovered, like, underground music.
11:21And my vision and SM didn't align.
11:24You know, girls and guys would debut quite early, quite young.
11:28I was, like, 23.
11:30So that's quite, like, that's, like, that's, like, grandma age for the k-pop industry.
11:33Don't say that.
11:34I'm that serious.
11:35It's, like, yeah, so that's kind of, like, one of the reasons why it just didn't work out,
11:39especially when it comes to my singing, too.
11:43Um, my singing didn't really align with, kind of, their vision, I think.
11:48I have a very lower tone, clearly.
11:51Um, a raspier voice.
11:52So I have no hard feelings about that.
11:54But as a kid, anyway, it hurts.
11:57I mean, looking at where you are now, like, does it give you any satisfaction?
12:01Just thinking back on the people who maybe didn't believe in you, or who didn't give you an opportunity,
12:06are you kind of, like, you can be petty.
12:08I am.
12:10Like I said, like, I get it.
12:12Back then, I was not, like, at the level that I am now.
12:16Like, I couldn't sing those high notes back then.
12:18So I get where they were coming from.
12:20So I do feel satisfied in the fact that, like, I didn't give up and I just kept going.
12:24I think the biggest regret I had when I got dropped was I felt like I let down 11-year-old EJ,
12:31who really wanted to become a singer.
12:33So in that respect, I feel, I'm just like, I hope I made her proud.
12:38It's, like, the biggest thing I feel.
12:40With Rumi's character sort of, like, feeling like she has to mask her patterns,
12:45like, I don't know, did you, did you relate to that?
12:48Big time.
12:49Absolutely.
12:50A very competitive industry and looking perfect, sounding perfect, dancing perfect is essential.
12:59K-pop is not just about the music, it's about everything.
13:02Visuals, packaging, marketing, how you speak, how you smart, like, how you dance and everything.
13:09So it did make me feel pressured to make sure to always hide away all my insecurities and all my flaws.
13:17Oh, and that pressure was really, really heavy.
13:20And so I understood that pressure of wanting to hide that, to be accepted, to feel loved.
13:29That was really, really hard.
13:31And I think I related to Rumi a lot in that.
13:33Has anything weird been happening in light of how big the movie has become?
13:38Just, like, on a fan level, like, or do you feel overwhelmed?
13:42Fan level?
13:43Yeah.
13:43Oh, um, thing is, like, fans have been so amazing.
13:47I think the fame part is a little tricky.
13:49I don't want to read comments because I have and I was, like, hurt by it sometimes.
13:54Um, but, like, that's what I'm saying is, like, the fame part doesn't fit with my personality
13:58because I was very, like, honest with myself.
14:01Like, to be in this industry, you gotta have thick skin.
14:05I don't think I do.
14:06So, like, I was, like, really real with myself.
14:09What's the most, like, toxic or intimidating element of the fandom?
14:13Well, you know, when I was writing Your Idol, um, it was inspired by that.
14:18Um, I saw the dark side of it.
14:19And part of that was the intensity of, of the fandom.
14:24One of the times I had experienced when I was a K-pop trainee was, like, at that time,
14:28there was a boy band called TVXQ.
14:30They were huge at that time.
14:32And I still remember, there was, like, a third floor, uh, third floor dance practice room
14:37in the first floor, and we had to walk up.
14:39And to walk up, it's, like, up, up.
14:41Right here was, like, this, uh, glass door.
14:45It's just glass.
14:45The fans were all over that door.
14:49And they would try to open it.
14:50And once they had, like, a little bit of, like, a crack open, and whenever the female trainees
14:55go up, they would throw trash and call us names.
15:01Really bad names.
15:02And mind you, we're, like, 11, 12, maybe old, like, 14.
15:09And I just remember that so clearly and feeling so scared.
15:12They threw trash at us.
15:14So that was, like, a really dark moment that I experienced.
15:18SM definitely protected us from that.
15:20So once that happened, they blocked everything out.
15:22But that was, like, an intense fan scene I've seen.
15:26What do you think that was about?
15:27Like, why call you guys names and throw trash if they're, you know, fans of the genre?
15:32It's, like, tricky when you're idolizing someone so much.
15:36It can get intense, and they get very dark fast, um, and toxic.
15:41So I think the obsession can be very, it can make you very blind to your intense emotions.
15:49And a lot of the fans are, like, teenagers.
15:51And I feel like when you're a teenager, you're going through puberty, you feel lots of intense emotions.
15:56What is your relationship to ambition right now?
15:59What a cool question.
16:04Toxic, I'm doing that.
16:06Same.
16:07It can be, right?
16:09I swear.
16:11That's like Golden.
16:13Golden is a bittersweet fall.
16:15In that moment with Rumi and the character, she's, like, really focused on the home moon and getting that achievement.
16:21That she kind of ignores her flaws.
16:24You know what I mean?
16:24And even in the movie, you see her saying, like, no more hiding while she's hiding.
16:29And that's a really important part of that song.
16:33So, like, as much as it's great to strive and be ambitious and go, always do it in a healthy way.
16:40Always keep talking to yourself while you're doing it.
16:42Don't ignore your health.
16:43Don't ignore your mental health.
16:45Be real with yourself while you're being ambitious.
16:47It's a great balance, I think, is important.
16:51So, my relationship with ambitious is healthy, I think.
16:56When you were on SNL, like, were you nervous to sing?
16:59I'm always nervous to sing.
17:01I'm nervous in the studio to sing.
17:03So, the fact that I'm performing it is a huge jump for me.
17:08My comfort zone and usually where I feel the best singing is my own little corner in my house in Brooklyn.
17:14But, yeah, that was a huge jump.
17:16I was so nervous.
17:17What do you see being, like, next for K-pop?
17:21I think K-pop was kind of going through this, like, pop direction.
17:25I think it kind of lost its K-pop beauty.
17:29And what I find it is is, like, K-pop has a very unique approach to genres.
17:34And they love to mix things up.
17:37Just like how Korean people and food, they like to mix things up.
17:40Like, Pee-beam-pop is just a mixture of all these things.
17:43And I love that about Korea.
17:44And I think you see that a lot in the movie with K-pop.
17:47You see different genres mixed, different melodies come up randomly.
17:51Rhythmically, it's always changing.
17:53Suddenly, the bridge is a different song, you know?
17:55And that's the beauty of it.
17:56So I think maybe that will come back more.
18:00I mean, I want it to come back more.
18:02Embracing that side, having a lot of Korean in it as well.
18:06I think that may be very Korean.
18:09Well, thank you so much.
18:11This was totally fascinating.
18:13And congratulations.
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