00:00India needs to, in a way, provide perhaps Donald Trump some room, some room to wriggle out of the
00:06tariff issue so that a trade deal is cemented next month. Diplomatically, India has been very
00:11careful not to challenge Donald Trump beyond the point. The MEA claimed there was no conversation
00:17between Prime Minister Modi and President Trump. But beyond that, they haven't really taken on
00:22Donald Trump at any time. Even when his advisor spoke of India being a dead economy, we were very
00:27quiet. Is that strategy, in your view, working slowly but surely? Even today, when he speaks
00:33about Russian oil, is there a toning down, as Ashok Malik seems to suggest?
00:39Look, Rajdeep, I don't think you can deal with issues, oil, etc., in separation, because you're
00:45dealing with Trump as a whole entity. And for him, the whole Russian oil issue is linked to Ukraine.
00:52And he feels that the Ukraine, and he has said it, India is keeping the Ukraine war going,
00:58Now, the problem is that there are two ways to deal with Trump. One is the way the Europeans have
01:03done it, the way the most of the world is doing it. Just stand there, be embarrassed by Trump,
01:08but largely don't take him on. You can privately do what you want, and publicly you can adopt whatever
01:13policy, but don't confront him. The other one is the Chinese matter. The Chinese had cut a deal
01:18with them, and now they've gone back on that deal. And they're back again to rare earths, and Americans
01:24are facing a problem there. Probably that's one of the elements that might help India.
01:29Now, the problem in dealing with Trump is that he publicly embarrasses you, but then we also make
01:34mistakes. When ambassador-designate Gore was here, never diplomatically, never ever, an ambassador-designate
01:43is received by a head of government. Now, Prime Minister met him, took a painting from him,
01:49signed by Trump. Whatever he discussed with him, Gore would have gone and told Trump. Now,
01:55when Trump says, I've been told, it doesn't mean he's been told directly by Prime Minister.
01:59Maybe that's what Gore went and told him. So, when you start breaking conventions, you think you can
02:04please Trump and get across to him, then you'll always have a mix-up. I think with Trump,
02:08you have to have a very straightforward way of dealing with him. Russia is, a relationship with
02:14Russia is more than just oil. You know, we have a defense relationship. Tomorrow, you can have
02:19instability in the Gulf, and the oil supplies can seize. Iran is not part of the Sharm al-Sheikh
02:25meeting. So, the Israelis are not about to stop. They're still going after Iran. So, it's a region
02:30from which we are getting oil, which is very unstable, and it can get destabilized very rapidly.
02:36Therefore, you need a diversity of relationships, which are necessary for defense equipment,
02:43which are necessary for oil, energy, gas, and so on and so forth. So, and also, it is necessary for
02:49your international image. Because the whole world is watching, the smaller countries, global south,
02:54they're watching who is able to stand up to Trump. Now, it doesn't mean you fight with him. But the
03:00Chinese are getting that leadership. The Chinese are the ones who will be seen as the other power,
03:04which can stand up to the Americans. Now, if we go on getting embarrassed, and then we have to
03:10publicly have the spokesman of the MEA sort of wriggle out of it, then this will continue. This
03:16will not stop. Look at the importance. Prime Minister didn't go to Sharm al-Sheikh. Why? Because look at
03:22the importance given to the Pakistani Prime Minister. And there was a danger that Trump may just call
03:26Prime Minister Modi and say, come on, shake hands with the Prime Minister Sharif. You're dealing with,
03:32you can keep saying in public. So, he did the right thing. No, no, let's be clear, Casey Singh,
03:36the Prime Minister, you know, no, no, let me intervene then. The Prime Minister did not go to
03:41Sharm al-Sheikh. On hindsight, it was probably the right thing to do. Absolutely. I mean, you don't want
03:45to be part of some Trump love fest, surely. Absolutely. But then keep that message consistent.
03:51You don't receive an ambassador designate and take a painting from him. God knows what he goes and
03:56tells Trump. And then Trump will just, he has a stream of consciousness. You give him a mic,
04:02he'll say whatever occurs to him. Whether it embarrasses you, it doesn't embarrass you,
04:06it's happened time and again. And I think you have to choose how to deal with Trump.
04:10And if you think that you can appease him, it's not going to work because that is not the way
04:17the Chinese are dealing with him. Okay. Okay. I've got your point. You've made that China point.
04:25I want to take that to you, Rahul Aluwalya. The Chinese are using, for example, you know,
04:30they're using, yes, William, you, you, let me get an intervention. William Buter, you wanted to intervene.
04:37I heard you. Go ahead. No, it's just important to recognize that these negotiations are not just
04:43about the Russian 25 percent. They're about the whole 50 percent. And meaningful trade negotiations
04:50will have to continue even after India, if they were to do so, discontinuous oil imports from Russia.
04:59There would have to be concessions on tariff barriers and on non-tariff barriers. So this is not just Russia we're talking about.
05:09So why is Trump again raising Russia again and again is the question. Is he using Russia as a bargaining chip
05:23to push India to the wall? And should India stand up, Rahul, as is being suggested by Casey Singh,
05:29we shouldn't be seen to be bullied by Trump. Instead, rather than go overboard in any way,
05:35we've got to stand up. The Chinese have done so and have done reasonably successful. But the Chinese
05:40have rare earths. They have weapons available. They are a much larger economy. So they can stand
05:45up to Donald Trump. Can India do so really? Can we really stand up to Trump? Or do we need to really
05:51work carefully to negotiate a win-win trade deal?
05:55I mean, first of all, China's success is very qualified. They've just had 100 percent tariffs
06:01announced against them. And by and large, this whole thing was set off by China. So I would not
06:06qualify China's strategy as a success by... But they're not concerned about it. The Chinese don't
06:12seem as of now, Rahul, just to intervene, the Chinese don't seem as concerned about it. They seem
06:17to be willing to look at Donald Trump in the eye. If they're not, that's a mistake. The Chinese economy
06:22is extremely fragile. They've been in situations of overproduction for almost five or six years now.
06:29Their real estate sector is in massive crisis. If I were the Chinese, I would be very worried no
06:35matter what brave front I'm trying to put up to the rest of the world. So I mean, I wouldn't...
06:39I would not at all say that we should copy China in any way, shape or form at all. But that doesn't
06:47mean that we give up self-respect or anything of the sort. We should just not view it in those terms.
06:53We should view it... We should not take Trump on his terms. Why are we trying to meet Trump on his
06:59terms? Our strategic interest should be of primal importance to us, right? And our strategic
07:07interests lie in securing a large market with the USA. Our strategic interests lie in lowering our
07:14own trade barriers so that our economy becomes more competitive, so that our economy becomes more
07:20efficient and grows. It is in our interest to lower trade barriers. We should always remember that.
07:26We should reform our economy in such a way that we don't need trade barriers to hide behind.
07:31Our agriculture sector has been crying out for reform for decades. We could use this as a reason
07:39to reform our agricultural subsidies. It doesn't mean we stop agricultural subsidies. We should protect
07:45our farmers. We should protect the people who need protection. We should not protect particular types
07:52of crops. We should not protect particular types of fertilizers. We should not protect particular
07:58types of water withdrawal methods. This is just inefficient. It hurts us. It hurts our environment.
08:05It hurts our farmers. It hurts our long-term strategic interest. This is an opportunity to do something
08:11about it. And we should look at it in those terms, not in the terms of are we winning or losing
08:15against Trump. That's a mistake.
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