- 7 weeks ago
Jack Antonoff and Hayley Williams kick off Rolling Stone's seventh annual Musicians on Musicians series with a conversation about songwriting, staying grounded, and the scenes that made them.
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00:00Not everyone plays like it's their last fucking night on earth.
00:03Yeah.
00:03You know what I mean?
00:04Yeah, it's so true.
00:05Every show does feel like the last show.
00:07Me too.
00:08Which is really hard on my body.
00:09Oh, I know, man.
00:10Like, I don't know how to stop that, though.
00:14I don't think you can.
00:25We didn't know each other for 20 years.
00:26We first toured together in 2010, just like five years after we...
00:31But I knew Steel Train.
00:33I knew Paramore right away.
00:36That's crazy.
00:37I mean, I knew of Steel Train.
00:39I don't think we ever played shows together.
00:41Then when the first Fun Record came out, too.
00:45The first album, like, I mean, obviously the second album blew up.
00:49The first album was way more interesting.
00:51I just had such a, like, deep connection to it.
00:54I think when it came out and my life was really meaningful.
00:57And then we met.
00:59We toured together.
01:01This was, like, during Brand New Eyes.
01:03So, like, our band was super fun to hang out with.
01:05You were fun to hang out with.
01:06I was, like, at your catering table all the time.
01:09Yeah.
01:09We ended up hanging out in L.A.
01:12And you showed me, like, one of the first Bleacher songs that you had been working on.
01:16I remember that.
01:17It was...
01:17I played you I Want to Get Better in a car.
01:20Yes.
01:30You gave it thumbs up.
01:31It was a big deal.
01:32I fucking loved it.
01:32I didn't play it for anyone.
01:33I think it was one of the first songs that I, like, really loved that spoke to mental health in the way that it did.
01:43And just, like, it was just so confessional.
01:46It felt like I really wanted to write that.
01:49I needed to say that.
01:50But someone else had to say it for me, in a way.
01:52Do you feel like you, like, manifested your life when you wrote those lyrics?
01:56But when I go back, I'm, like, I was so in the weeds.
01:58But now that I listen to this, it's so clear what I was signaling that I wanted.
02:03Oh, yeah.
02:03It's kind of weird.
02:04Even though it wasn't the first Jack song I ever heard.
02:07It's, like, it's the one that, to me, like, man, you really, like, you really, like, put a stake in the ground with that.
02:15The first song I wrote where I was, like, man, you can all fuck off.
02:18Okay, that's interesting.
02:20What's the first song you wrote where you're, like, this is it?
02:24I mean, I...
02:24Like, this is, like, if you crack me open, this is the music that would shoot out.
02:29Oh, shit.
02:30I had a lot of those moments when I was writing these songs.
02:34And some of that is because I would write the lyrics and feel really uncomfortable about it.
02:41And then in, like, warp speed, like, the processing all happened a lot quicker for me this time around.
02:48And I would look back at, like, three weeks ago and be, like, oh, my God, that's what that meant.
02:52I had that with Wim, to me, which we talked about, that song.
02:58The lyrics and the chorus, to me, explain so much about how I view relationships.
03:04And I think my downfall in them and the tendency to sabotage.
03:11I saw the lyrics printed on something recently and I was just, like, I like those lyrics for me.
03:25I like those.
03:25Those could go, like, on my epitaph and I'd be okay with it.
03:29Yeah, but I feel like the whole new album, I've been listening to it so much as, like, it feels like being in a room with you more than anything else you've ever made.
03:39Really?
03:39Is that fair?
03:40That's cool.
03:41It's my opinion.
03:42That's so cool.
03:44That's the coolest compliment, actually.
03:46Like, it feels very conversational, which I think is the hardest.
03:48Oh, I love that.
03:49I think that's the hardest thing to do because I think it's very easy to be unclear.
03:53You know what I mean?
03:54Yeah, for sure.
03:55There's so much armor in it and being unclear.
03:57Yeah, for sure.
03:58Well, and that's, I think, why in my mind I'm like, oh, I wish I was more poetic in this or that way because I think, well, the thought is, like, I will feel, like, cloaked in something.
04:08Yeah.
04:08You know, but maybe still get to be cool artist vibe.
04:12But I think it's just not natural.
04:14There's just so many moments where I'm like, whoa, she said that, whoa, she said that.
04:18No, it's the best.
04:20It's so scary.
04:21It's like what it's like to actually talk to someone.
04:22The album gave me this feeling, which I've been having, maybe not popular, but insanely hopeful lately, strictly about music.
04:29Because I feel like a lot of the shit has just, you know, in this, like, hellscape of only marketing, marketing, marketing, it's become very clear, like, what matters and what doesn't.
04:43Yeah.
04:43So I got that all day long.
04:45It's made me so happy.
04:46That's so sick.
04:47I definitely feel like there's a thing.
04:49I think when, like, the world feels the way it does, I find myself, I just, I'm wanting to plug back into what's local.
04:57I'm wanting to go to smaller shows.
05:00When I was a bit younger, everyone was like, TV rots your fucking brain.
05:04And, like, it kind of didn't.
05:05You know what I mean?
05:06Like, because.
05:06You just want more of it.
05:08Well, now it's quaint.
05:09Now it's like, if someone was like, you want to watch a movie together, I'd, like, cry.
05:12I'd be like, you're beautiful.
05:15Watching, like, watching a movie with someone at their house would be the equivalent.
05:19Yeah, of, like, the 60s version of, like, lying in a field staring at this.
05:24It's like line dancing together.
05:25Yeah.
05:26Wow, it's so true.
05:28It's so, especially sans any other screens.
05:31Dude, I am only happy if I have something on TV, I have something on my laptop, and I have my phone.
05:37I'm just like.
05:39Just getting shit done.
05:40Yeah, and then my partner likes to, like, meditate and stuff.
05:43Yeah.
05:43She's not sick that way.
05:45Right.
05:45And I'm just like.
05:47Ugh.
05:47Just like.
05:48No, I hate to say I'm with you.
05:50I, like, I really romanticize the version of myself that is not like that, but I'm just, I am like that.
05:58This is why I was like, I can't remember any of the lyrics.
06:02It's just because I've been like.
06:03Do, do, do, do, do.
06:04Yeah.
06:05Like, scrolling for years on my phone.
06:07I think that my extracurricular activities, I'm starting to see, you know.
06:13A rotting.
06:14The effects.
06:14Yeah.
06:15The rotting effects.
06:16Got it.
06:17And I'm kind of like, wow, this is where I have to decide.
06:20Like, I want to be a musician for the rest of my life.
06:22I have to be like I was at 16 and just practice more and hang out in my room with my instruments more and not, like, rot away forever.
06:29It's really fun to rot.
06:30It's so fun.
06:31And, which, I'm tired of the news.
06:34I know.
06:34And there's days that you just, like, have to get away.
06:37If you care.
06:38If you're empathetic.
06:38I like the meat slicing is where I end up.
06:41What?
06:41You have that?
06:42Wait, wait.
06:42On my algorithm?
06:43Yeah.
06:43Meat slicing?
06:44Someone will take a steak out and cut it in half and they'll take one part of the steak, put it on top of the other and show it and kind of squeeze it.
06:50No, but, but.
06:52You're missing out.
06:53Similar.
06:53Am I really?
06:54Is it just, is it like a comforting thing of, like.
06:58My wife has cutting soap.
07:00Oh, I love cutting soap.
07:02I have meat, cheese work.
07:05Love cheese work.
07:06Pasta, pizza.
07:08Like making pasta.
07:09Subs.
07:10There's going to be a point in my life where I have to make the ultimate decision to, I'm going to plant, I'm going to plant some food and some wildflowers and I'm going to practice guitar and I'm just going to garden.
07:21I'm, half my head's there.
07:23Yeah.
07:24So I spend, that's why I go to the studio so much is because it like really.
07:27Forces you into that.
07:28I just, I'm not thinking about anything else.
07:30You're locked in.
07:32That's what, yeah.
07:34Where do you lock in?
07:35I think I lock in when I'm writing and like, and it's nice because I, you know, will start a lot of times by like digging through my notes and kind of seeing like what just unhinged shit I wrote down when I wasn't thinking about it.
07:53And then I'll go back and I really enjoy it as a writing prompt almost.
07:57And I just kind of can, especially if, you know, you know, those moments where there's a sound happening that you really like, there's a feeling and you can actually follow it.
08:08And then like five minutes later, you've got some, maybe not five minutes, let's say 15 minutes later, you've got some sort of weird skeleton that you're like, okay, I can follow this.
08:17I like that feeling right there when it like, yeah, right when you, there's a thread that's that you start to pull and there's something there.
08:25Yeah.
08:25Uh, that's my most like honed in, like there's a purity in that, that I'm always kind of chasing and I haven't really found it in any other hobby or passion.
08:37Same.
08:37Which is really, do you ever feel ashamed of that?
08:40I used to feel more.
08:42It's just what I do.
08:44It's what I think about doing, what I look forward to doing.
08:47And it's what I spend my time trying to preserve that I can keep doing it.
08:52Yeah, yeah, yeah.
08:53Which is, on one hand, it's like the most glorious thing.
08:56It's also kind of pathetic to not have like a well-rounded life.
09:00I used to knit when we toured in the van and I really liked that.
09:03Like I don't really, there's nothing that gives me that feeling.
09:08I think it's okay though.
09:09I've had, um, sometimes it's about breaking it down like the simplest sense, which is like, that's just what you do.
09:16Mm-hmm.
09:17And if you spend your life doing that, that would be a life having been worth lived.
09:22Yeah.
09:22Um, I think it gets bad, because I'm sure you talk about this so much with your community, just like I do too.
09:29It's like, it gets bad if you start to like distort.
09:32Like if you're spending like a certain amount of time on the studio in the road that like caused you to like take too many drugs or like, or isolate in some weird way.
09:41It doesn't hurt your brain or your body, but like, you know, you're one of the more functional people I know.
09:47Um.
09:48Huge, huge compliment.
09:50So I also think this comes from the scenes we were raised in.
09:52Like, I, I thought it was normal, but now that we're like out there in the world, it's like, not everyone plays like it's their last fucking night on earth.
10:04Yeah.
10:04You know what I mean?
10:05Yeah, it's so true.
10:06Every show does feel like the last show.
10:08Me too.
10:09Which is really hard on my body.
10:10Oh, I know, man.
10:11Like, I don't know how to stop that though.
10:15I don't think you can.
10:16I have my entire career been the singer of a band that moves, acts, talks, everything in one way.
10:24And, um, I really became aware of that the last like year or so.
10:32And it's weird because when we're with the people that grew up on our music and we're at our own show, it's almost like we get it.
10:40It's this thing.
10:41It's sometimes it's like an inside joke.
10:42Other times it's like this beautiful, like fucking, I don't know, like night of like, we're all like worshiping together.
10:49You know, it just feels like really spiritual.
10:50And, but maybe it was like coming to the end of my deal or something.
10:56I was like, man, I've been this person in this way for so long and I'm starting to feel like a ringleader.
11:03Like, and I don't, I don't know, I felt a lot of guilt and shame about that.
11:10And as I think about moving into this music, that shit was so hard on my body before and my neck and all that.
11:17Now I'm like, oh, I'd really like to play guitar again.
11:20I'd really like to get back to feeling like a musician on stage because that is where I started.
11:25That's the thing that made me feel like I was really connected with other people I was playing with.
11:30And I'm kind of like hoping that that's less hard on my body, but I have a feeling.
11:35Okay.
11:35I've talked to Springsteen about this because he plays it like he's fucking Last Night Earth every night.
11:43And I've, and he's, can still do it.
11:46And I've joked with him.
11:47He's ripped.
11:48He's ripped.
11:49I think we have to be ripped.
11:50I'm not going to age like that.
11:52You will.
11:52You're, you're like, I'm going to.
11:54No, no, no.
11:54I'm a twig.
11:55I'm going to just disintegrate into thin air.
11:58That's what's going to happen.
11:59Not how I see it, but also the kind of thing you say when you're not a twig.
12:01So.
12:03But we were talking about deep jealousy over people whose job it is to punch over the piano.
12:08Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:09And just make everyone weep.
12:10And it was interesting to hear him say, yeah, it's not fucking easy.
12:14He, because I look at him like a brick wall, but like, it's so painful to play like that.
12:20Do you ever feel like your origin story gets rewritten as someone who's.
12:25Yeah.
12:26You're like.
12:28Do I?
12:29Do I?
12:30I don't, there, I don't think anyone has ever gotten the story of like our, our band right.
12:35But I'm at this point, it's just fun.
12:37Well, same with me.
12:38I feel like, I just feel like we can relate on this because I feel like it's like, you know,
12:41like you make a few pop records and all of a sudden it's like, no, no, you didn't grow up.
12:44You didn't grow up in that place and you didn't grow up playing in Legion halls.
12:46I'm like, I just did.
12:48Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:48Because I don't know how to like.
12:49Sorry.
12:49I like watch what you do and all the different, I mean, you're involved in so many different things.
12:56And I always can feel the same heartbeat in it.
12:58Even when you're trying on different, it's like you're presenting things differently all the time.
13:02I, I get, I'm just like, I stay so proud watching you because I know a lot about where you came from
13:11or what that feels like and I can still see it in every move that you make.
13:15And I think that's kind of what I'm looking for all over the place in our industry.
13:20There's so many artists that are having a moment that have been around for so long.
13:24Yeah.
13:24Charlie, Turnstile.
13:26Like, I feel like I'm getting to watch like my favorite movie.
13:31Like, I feel like I'm watching Wayne's World, but it's like real life.
13:34Where, yeah, it's like the stuff that we always thought would like admittedly live under the surface.
13:40Yeah.
13:40It's totally broken through.
13:41When I was at the Turnstile show too, under the Cambridge here, it was like, I had this, this moment where I was like,
13:47well, hardcore kids are running the music industry and I'm in love with it.
13:53Dude, the last time I saw them, I was like, this, this looks like, like a kid dynamite show.
13:57Like the way everyone's like moving is like, it's like, it's remarkable.
14:02Real artists, real band is so back.
14:05Yeah.
14:06Which is so funny that it, A, that's sort of like a funny concept, but it makes,
14:12it leaves a lot of space for the people who can actually do it.
14:14I mean, I'm kind of, I'm like on the opposite end trying to feel out what it means to be someone that only ever wanted to be part of that.
14:25And not for the aesthetic, but because of the safety of it and like the.
14:29Oh, the safety is the best.
14:30The safety is the best.
14:31You just like move as a unit.
14:32You're like a gang.
14:33No one can like, you just like, it's the best having a band because it's like.
14:39It's a group of people who believe in something.
14:42Yes.
14:42Searching for the other people who believe in it.
14:44Yeah, right.
14:45And then anyone who doesn't is a fucking herb.
14:47It's just like, that's it.
14:48I think there's just like.
14:50It, I don't, I don't know how to live any other way.
14:53I keep saying.
14:54But you kind of are a band even when you're solo.
14:57The, the, the feeling.
14:58Because it's very communal.
14:59I made this record and it like kind of feels like it just exploded out.
15:04And I'm really thankful and I, it does feel right to put it out under my name.
15:07But I also have this, I don't know if it's true or not, but I think I have to exercise
15:11saying it that it, I feel like it's the last record I'll do under my name.
15:16And I feel proud of that.
15:18I want to be in like a hundred bands before I die.
15:20Yeah.
15:20That's more of the speed that I work best in.
15:23And I like that feeling of like being in a room with people and something that didn't
15:30exist becomes a thing that you're all holding.
15:32Yeah.
15:32The one plus one equals a million.
15:33You know, our band and you like grew up around us and we've had like our fair share.
15:38I mean, we've had more than our fair share of drama and like our manager would always
15:42be like, you know, communication is the most important stuff in any relationship.
15:45He's been saying that to us since we were 16.
15:47And, um, I just kind of feel like when you think you've figured that out, you know, a
15:53few years go by and you have to re-figure that out again.
15:56And like, we have always struggled with that.
15:59We've always struggled with like getting to the top of the mountain and then like some
16:02fog clears and there's another fucking mountain.
16:04I don't really understand.
16:07It's, this is insane to bring up in an interview of this magnitude.
16:13But I, I genuinely felt like I always got blamed for all the shit that would go on in
16:20our band.
16:20And I never knew if it was like, well, I'm the singer, but also I'm, you know, at the
16:26time, like I'm a young girl and people don't understand young girls.
16:29And the only girl the whole time.
16:30At times I took that as like a, I was like wore that like a badge of honor.
16:34Like I can handle this and I want to protect the whole, but, um, but my attitude, like
16:40whether it's in the studio, whether it's in the live setting is kind of so like, I know
16:44what I like and I want to contribute that to it, but I also just love when the vibe is
16:49good and when everyone's happy.
16:51It makes so much better work.
16:52I actually do have a question about your working alone and when you know, or how, how
16:58you know, when something is for you versus how you, how you like delegate to like, Oh,
17:04I want to do this in a collaborative setting.
17:06For most time when I'm working with other people, it's like, I'm just coming in and working
17:11on their stuff.
17:12So it's not, but then there are these things.
17:14So it's like, I'm always working on my own stuff.
17:15So never once in a while I'll be working on album.
17:17I'll be like, I do have that thing that would make sense.
17:21Uh, in, in, in this.
17:24And then usually what I do is just, uh, have an immediate gut reaction, which is like,
17:29would I be sad to lose it?
17:30And if the answer is yes, then it's mine.
17:32And if the answer is no, then it's a cool thing I made that's not attached to anything.
17:35Wow.
17:35How are you going to tour?
17:36Are you, are you going to like do, I've done everything and I'm going to keep doing
17:39everything.
17:40Okay.
17:41And the biggest thing I'm going to keep doing is just probably shouting about it because
17:45it's like for better or worse, I'm kind of always watching that part of it.
17:49I love touring and live music so much.
17:51And I think it's just, it's, it's it.
17:53Like if people aren't coming to your show, you ain't worth shit.
17:55That's it.
17:56You know what I mean?
17:56Like, and time and time again, every hallmark of what is supposed to be the music industry
18:04is just destroyed by someone who can do something, you know?
18:08Yeah.
18:08Fucking Mike Hammer having the biggest tour ever right now.
18:12It's really cool.
18:13It's really cool.
18:14They're really good guys too.
18:15That's the way I grew up with them.
18:16Like the best guys and like forever, you know,
18:18it's just this, the story is, is all the time, but which always be crazy is, so this
18:24thing is like flourishing.
18:25Like everyone wants to go see music and it's just like, there's so much for everyone to
18:31go around.
18:31And then there's just a couple of fucking people at the top just have to be like, nope.
18:35And you just fucking are left with what you're left with, which is people like us, like
18:40actually like on talking to the audience, be like, Hey, we're so sorry about the fake
18:45VIP line.
18:46And thanks for letting us know, going to shut it down.
18:48Hey, we're so sorry about like the core is light, like dipshit room experience.
18:52We didn't know we're getting like, and I just don't want.
18:55I'm just like, sorry you had to pay this much to come and see us.
18:59Look, my thing is this.
19:01If you have all the money in the world or you have absolutely nothing and every penny
19:04matters and that an artist is supposed to say, Hey, we recognize our audience.
19:09This is our ticket price because it represents everyone and it represents us doing this without
19:15trying to break everyone.
19:16Got it.
19:16Right.
19:16So let's say that it's that number, this person and this person, even if it means nothing
19:21to this person to get that number and this person to work for weeks, when they enter that
19:24room, they're supposed to be the same person.
19:27Yeah.
19:27The idea that all these things are turning a venue into like a free market where it's
19:32like, I'm here.
19:33I played face value.
19:34So-and-so's here.
19:35They paid a billion dollars and so-and-so bought their ticket for 30 cents when the
19:39scalpers dropped it nine minutes before the show.
19:41Like this like moving thing.
19:43It's like just set a price and let people go in.
19:46Yeah.
19:47And without, and then everything from the water to the merch, like why do they still take
19:50our merch?
19:51And I'm fine.
19:52But like, you know, like when I, when, when I was a steel train, it's like handing over,
19:56you know, a hundred bucks that was going to go in the gas tank.
19:59Like, just stop.
20:00I was just talking about this the other day.
20:01Like, like how, how I lost like a large chunk of my innocence.
20:06The first time I realized like we had made enough money to, to get gas, to go to the next
20:11show, but we had to give like half of it to the venue.
20:13And I was like, what?
20:15Yeah.
20:15Like my dad was like, this is America.
20:17Literally.
20:17I remember it too.
20:18It's insane.
20:18And I was just sort of like, I've had that firsthand, you know, we're going to
20:22regardless of how anyone wants to rewrite the origin story.
20:24It's like, I've seen it from every level.
20:26And I know how hard it is to be someone who plays for no one.
20:29Yeah.
20:29Right.
20:30But you know, that's tough.
20:32And that's, that's character building.
20:33What fucks me off is why is drawing a few hundred people, not an honest living?
20:40Cause that's so hard to do.
20:41When you get to that point where you can play clubs, the fact that you and your band can't
20:45turn a profit.
20:46And then we have to watch the companies that own all these rooms and monopolize the whole fucking
20:51thing, like post like billions of earnings while they're in there, like fucking like,
20:55you know, shirts that you wouldn't ever be caught dead in.
21:00And they're in charge of our, it's just like, just chill the fuck out.
21:03Like it's working.
21:05Everyone wants to come and everyone like, it's not like total anarchy.
21:09It's just like the difference between like a working thing and, you know, like, okay,
21:13you got me trapped in the airport.
21:14The water is 50 cents more.
21:16I get it.
21:16The water is $9 more.
21:18I have to freak the fuck out, but I've done too much research and I've, I've gone down
21:21the rabbit hole.
21:22That's bad.
21:22That's, I really.
21:23It's the sports lobby.
21:24And a lot of these companies, it's a sports lobby.
21:27Well, that's where the ticketing thing comes into play.
21:28And then I've like, like done the red yarn to like oblivion and like gone through every
21:34route of it.
21:35And the best I can do, which makes me even more mad is then they call up and they're like,
21:38we'll give you the right good deal.
21:39And I'm like, give everyone the good deal.
21:40To your original question, what do we do?
21:42I think we just got to keep talking about it.
21:43So no one thinks it's normal.
21:44And it's so simple to me and there's one answer, but it's never going to happen, which
21:47is they have to make a little less money.
21:50Yeah.
21:50That's it.
21:50Because they can, they can chuck it all around and do this, do that and make it up to you
21:54at the festival, whatever it is.
21:55But if, if, if they want to treat, I mean, that's what the scene was all about.
22:00And that's how I feel about my shows.
22:01That's how you feel about your shows.
22:02I want everyone in that room to feel like a fucking human being from beginning to end.
22:05Can I tell you my experience?
22:07Okay.
22:07Of what?
22:07I saw you a couple months ago and you were like, here I am a couple months ago.
22:12And then what felt like a few short couple months go by and you text me like, hey, I've
22:17made an album.
22:18Can I send it to you?
22:19Yeah.
22:19That was my experience was like, whoa, you, and Jesus Christ, it is, it is that album.
22:25It feels like it like exploded out of you in a way that I think people love, tell me if
22:30I'm right.
22:30I think people love to pretend this happened, but from listening to that album, and I do
22:35have the timestamp of our text, it clearly like, like fucking rocketed out.
22:41It was like diarrhea of the mouth.
22:42Yeah.
22:43That's so, I, I, I've had a couple of them, but how, I mean, it's also really painful and
22:48weird, but how crazy is that?
22:51It was so crazy.
22:52Well, I think the weirdest part was that like I started to write and I was like, I'm never
22:57going to tour again.
22:57I'm going to be home.
22:58I'm going to plant things.
22:59Yeah.
23:00I'm going to eat those things.
23:01Did you plant like one basil thing?
23:02No.
23:03In fact, what actually it's worse.
23:04What happened is like my house, I don't know what bird shit, all the tomato seeds in my
23:11yard, but the entire yard is just tomato plants now.
23:14And I didn't plant any of them.
23:15So it's like, I can't take credit, but I love to post little close friend stories.
23:18Like I'm Martha Stewart, you know?
23:21Anyway, I was kind of like, I know what I'm going to do.
23:23I'm just going to like crazy output as much as I need to.
23:27I'll put it out from home and I'll just keep working away.
23:30Like, you know, and I had this like this romantic, like life of a poet kind of thing.
23:35Like I'm just going to be home sitting at a desk by a window that I don't have, by the
23:39way.
23:40And that's what I'll do.
23:43And when we got to like, I don't know how many songs to, it had to happen before I was
23:49like, oh, oh, oh, this is like, this needs a.
23:53Oh my God.
23:53I'm making an album moment.
23:54Yeah.
23:55Like this needs a life.
23:56This needs a lifetime of its own.
23:58I mean, it's, it's having one, but it needs to, cause I didn't get to do it with pedals
24:01and I didn't, I didn't even want to do it with the second album.
24:05Um, I, yeah, it happened really quick.
24:08What I feel grateful about for it is that I was able to process a lot quicker than I,
24:14than I've ever been able to process like big things that happen in my life.
24:17Big, like heavy moments, moments that are just, just so laden with grief.
24:24Grief is like usually the biggest motivator for me.
24:29Um, and then my depression tries to take over and I usually give into that for about
24:33three or four weeks.
24:34What happened this time is I kind of started recognizing the signs like, oh, I'm not eating.
24:39I'm not taking care of myself.
24:41I'm, I'm really not okay.
24:44Maybe a song or two would happen and I'd be like, I'm still not really okay.
24:47But something clicked that, that I think didn't click fast enough when I was making pedals
24:52for armor.
24:54Um, where I was like, oh, I know the tools I need to reach for to like practically like
24:59just take care of myself.
25:00It was medicine.
25:01It was like, it was taking certain things off the schedule and putting like self-care
25:05stuff on the schedule.
25:07It's a practical shit.
25:08And then that fed the process of like getting some of this shit out.
25:13Like just the, the, I don't know.
25:16It was like, it was just like tar that just like kept coming out.
25:21And I was like, this has been in me a long time.
25:24I like what you said about depression over grief.
25:27Like, like, I feel like depression is like grief's like annoying friend or something where
25:31it's like, you get the fuck out of it.
25:32Like, this is horrible, but interesting.
25:34Because I pretty much right from that place and depression, I was, a lot of my favorite
25:39songs are about depression, but for me is way less interesting than, than the grief beneath
25:45it.
25:45Like grief has a reason.
25:46And I, and I don't always feel like my depression has a reason.
25:49It's just like a, a, a, a thing I've carried around since I was a kid.
25:53Same.
25:53You know?
25:53Grief never feels like any form of narcissism or sometimes depression I get like angry
25:57at.
25:58Yeah.
25:58I've never been angry at grief.
25:59I've been very angry at depression.
26:01Yeah.
26:01Maybe it like softens the, the, the, the way you see yourself through a moment too.
26:07Like depression does not make me, I don't, I can't look at myself, you know?
26:11Depression is, is.
26:13God, it's so boring.
26:14It's so boring.
26:15It's so boring.
26:16You know what happens next.
26:17Grief, you really don't.
26:18As a person's, uh, like I said, some of my favorite songs will come from it.
26:23But not for me.
26:25Yeah.
26:26Agreed.
26:26I, do you.
26:27Grief rips.
26:28Grief rips.
26:30Unfortunately, it rips.
26:31Yeah.
26:31Grief rips.
26:33Do you, what are you making right now?
26:35I, I don't know.
26:35An album called Grief Rips.
26:38I'm just like right there.
26:40I'm at the hardest part and the most like fulfilling part, which is like I wrote it all.
26:45I know exactly what I want to say.
26:47I know how I want to say it.
26:48I know how I want the band to sound.
26:49And now I just have to, um, take this and just make it like that.
26:53I am so, so grateful for your friendship.
26:56I don't feel like I've made a ton of like close friends, even though I've been in this
27:00job forever.
27:01Same.
27:01We know all the same people.
27:03We do.
27:03The only people we really know.
27:05Yeah.
27:06Thank God.
27:06Right?
27:06Yeah.
27:07Thank God.
27:07I'm just really grateful for you and I'm, I'm really inspired.
27:10So thanks for doing this.
27:11I'm really grateful.
27:12I'm really inspired.
27:13Always have been.
27:13And let me know if I'm sweating through my shirt.
27:19Folks at home, um, people sweat, shut the fuck up.
27:23It's normal.
27:24Yeah.
27:24It's fucking normal.
27:25It's actually healthier to sweat.
27:26It is.
27:27Yeah.
27:27It's.
27:28Oh, I knew someone once that, that, that, that didn't have like sweat gland.
27:31Not healthy.
27:32Didn't sweat.
27:32Were they healthy?
27:32They did like take a lot of different medications or something for it.
27:37I mean, I was, I wasn't jealous.
27:38Say the name.
27:38Say the name.
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28:12Say the name.
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