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Well Enough Burnout full episode 4: Dr Amos Ogunkoya and Zoe KalarThe Independent
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00:00If you are feeling burnt out but you're doing really good at your job does that mean you're
00:03burnt out?
00:04People are often asked do they feel burnt out but they're tough of their business and
00:09they're doing really well in high firing but technically they don't meet because it hasn't
00:12affected their performance.
00:14Whether we notice it or not, big tech are the global governments.
00:19They are taking the money from the time and value of the people and they're not putting
00:24back into society.
00:25If you have to keep people scrolling to make more money to deliver against shareholder
00:31return you have to make it toxic.
00:34Human beings when they get behind the screen often become something that they're not.
00:38It's the reason why when trolls get revealed they're the people you don't expect.
00:42There's such a disconnect between our own online life and our real life but for a lot of children
00:47that is their life.
00:53Welcome to Well Enough, the new podcast from The Independent that unpacks the weird world
00:57of wellness and the big health questions we're all asking.
00:59I'm your host Emily Lavinia and together with my guests we will be myth-busting, asking
01:04big questions and getting to the root of the wellness boom.
01:07Today we're discussing burnout, high stress and our fast-paced modern lives and whether
01:11or not slowing down is actually possible.
01:13We'll also be talking about community, the power of communication and how we relate to
01:18one another can be the key to helping us live a better life.
01:20I'm joined by two experts on the subject and together we'll be tackling the thorny
01:24subjects of exhaustion, productivity and self-care versus our very competitive natures.
01:30Dr. Amos Ogun Koya is a GP and doctor for the Premier League.
01:34He's also regularly on our TV screens as a medical expert and he was in one of my favourite BBC
01:39shows, The Traitors.
01:40He recently met with Keir Starmer to discuss the 10-year plan for the NHS and he's somewhat
01:44of an expert on stress management and resilience.
01:47Zoe Killar is a tech entrepreneur and the founder of We Are 8, the world's first sustainable
01:52social media platform.
01:54Zoe says it exists to shift the power of big tech to the people with love, not hate.
01:58Zoe's story is one of rapid corporate success followed by a radical shift in perspective after
02:03burnout caught up with her and she began to start again from the ground up.
02:07Dr. Amos, Zoe, thank you so much for joining me for Well Enough.
02:10Thank you for having me.
02:11Brilliant to be here.
02:12Well, let's get into the subject of burnout because there is this idea that we're probably
02:17all very familiar with that we can overexert our brains, that can manifest in the body and
02:23we can actually make ourselves feel quite unwell.
02:25I think more and more we're beginning to understand that there's this tangible and quite preventable
02:29health issue that is following us all around and that we need to take better care of ourselves.
02:35But I wonder, we hear the term burnout all the time.
02:38Is this actually a medical term?
02:40Yes, it's it's in the ICD-10, which is a psychiatry handbook, which lists all the psychiatric conditions.
02:50It's a diagnosis of exclusion.
02:52There are other things it could be.
02:53So things like depression and anxiety all can lead into burnout.
02:56And we'll talk about hopefully later about how there's some risk factors for it.
02:59But it describes a state of an emotional exhaustion.
03:04And that usually means that the challenges of life are exceeded by our ability to cope with them.
03:11That's how I like to explain it to people.
03:12And that can be for multiple reasons.
03:15And you did mention a few of them, which was that the complexity in the world we live in and how that can basically overload our nervous system.
03:22An overloaded nervous system.
03:24Does that kind of chime with your experience a little bit, Zoe?
03:27I was laughing, actually, as you were introducing, because you are clearly an expert in the field.
03:37You know, I think it's about survival.
03:40I don't even think I've given myself and I've been in business for 35 years and been a founder for 35 years.
03:47And I think when you choose the founder path, it is a really tough path and it's emotional and physical exhaustion.
03:57So I think, and I'm laughing as I say that, because laughter and love from family and friends is the thing that gets you through.
04:07Because the reality is you're learning to dance on the razor's edge every single day.
04:13A daily struggle, honestly, to push through what could be burnout.
04:20That's why I was interested in your, what actually is burnout and what things do we do to cope, right?
04:29And I guess in some cases, we think about it as the very end of the journey.
04:35It's when you hit the wall.
04:36But are there any warning signs?
04:38So if it's happening to you, it might not be that you've necessarily reached the end of that point, but maybe you are on the razor's edge, like Zoe says.
04:47I think it's difficult with pathologies because we often only identify them as problems when they affect our life.
04:54So the issue with the definition of burnout is that in that definition, there's the lack of efficacy in your job.
05:00So if you are feeling burnt out, but you're doing really good at your job, does that mean you're burnt out?
05:04Did that make sense?
05:05Yeah.
05:06And that is the paradox where people are often asked, do they feel burnt out?
05:12But they're top of their business and they're doing really well and high-fiving, but they feel burnt out.
05:17But technically, they don't meet because it hasn't affected their performance.
05:20One of the other, yeah, exactly.
05:22And one of the other criterias is, and I think from my personal experience as a doctor, because you can get some compassion fatigue, is apathy about what you're doing.
05:31So, and I think for me, when I have been speaking with patients who are high-flying, is that that passion that was originally there starts to wane.
05:40And that for them is the canary in the mine for their being burnt out.
05:45That's so interesting.
05:46I guess when you talk about the idea that you can be doing well, but feeling bad, if the productivity is there, if you're hitting the numbers, if everything seems to be going well on the surface,
05:55it's almost like that analogy of the swan on the water, everything looks serene above, but then the kicking is mad underneath the surface.
06:03And that's really everyone now.
06:06Like, I think society, you know, 10-year-old kids are feeling like this.
06:12And 70-year-old people are feeling like this.
06:16And that's what's so fascinating.
06:17It feels like everyone is at that level now.
06:23And I suppose there's often this idea that we can't slow down, because if we slow down, if we drop the ball, there might be people depending on us.
06:30There might be, you know, we've got to pay the bills.
06:32We've got to carry on.
06:33We've got to look after our kids.
06:35As you say, Zoe, it's not necessarily just high-flying business execs that might be dealing with burnt out.
06:40You could be any age.
06:42So is there anything that we can do?
06:45Say we can't take our foot off the brake.
06:46We can't stop working.
06:48What can we do to kind of prevent us from getting to that end point where it's the end of the road?
06:54Emily, you described it really well there in terms of the end point.
06:57What I like to explain to people is that there's a journey to that.
07:01So think about burnout as a continuum of emotions and feelings.
07:05And having quite hard check-ins on yourself is actually something that you can do.
07:12So I like using the example of signs within myself that I might not be doing too well, because often people who are on that conveyor belt don't have the insight.
07:23And they only get to the point when they're being diagnosed with burnout when they are burnt out.
07:28So recognising the feelings, days when you don't feel as motivated and not necessarily just pushing on and developing good actual habits in order to deal with it.
07:43So Zoe mentioned connection, connection with family, connection to people, because often people outside of you who are connected to your all-purpose are really good at identifying how to help you through.
07:55So other people can kind of be your mirror and check in on how you're doing.
07:58I think that's really good.
08:00And that care for each other is so important, right?
08:04When someone asks you, how are you?
08:08Or how are you feeling?
08:10There's a term in another language.
08:12I think it's maybe Greek.
08:14And instead of saying, how are you?
08:16The translation is, how is the state of your heart in this moment?
08:21And it's almost, it's going deeper on those little interactions too, right?
08:29Because we're quite conditioned to just sort of say, oh, I'm fine.
08:31How are you?
08:32Yeah.
08:32I know I always do that.
08:34But I think those important moments of checking with yourself that you mentioned are really useful too.
08:40I've certainly got a bit better at that.
08:42And I do notice that if I'm starting to feel like things are a little bit overwhelming, one of the things I'll often do is delete social media.
08:48And I won't look at it.
08:50And I'll maybe take a break for a day, a couple of days.
08:53And it's hard for me sometimes because I think, oh, no, I've got to be online.
08:58I've got to show up.
08:58I've got to post.
08:59I've got to check what other people are doing.
09:00But actually, it soothes me to not be bombarded with information.
09:04And it means that I can relax a little bit.
09:07And I suppose, Zoe, you can maybe speak to that because we know that social media in so many ways can be quite toxic.
09:12And that's why you've almost created an alternative.
09:16That, I mean, the toxicity on social, it was one of the main things we addressed, right?
09:21We completely redesigned, re-architected and reimagined what social could be.
09:28You know, how do we put all the good bits on steroids?
09:31You know, all the good bits of Instagram and, you know, if you choose to watch an ad, the money gets shared with you.
09:40If you want to link out from a post, go and read that article because we actually just want to inspire you for eight minutes a day.
09:47But to get to that table stakes, we had to block the hate.
09:54And in a world where the tech leaders are saying, wheeling back from moderation and choosing not to do it in the name of freedom of speech,
10:02we really doubled down on that and have spent the last five years committing to it and training AI models
10:09to build a gigantic eight-eye shield that scans 250 million videos a day, that supports all comments, content, profiles,
10:22and it blocks all toxicity and hate.
10:25And it is so exciting because all the kids coming into this world now,
10:31we've forgotten what it's like to live in a world where we're not abused.
10:36Where we're nice to each other.
10:37Ryan, I look at the lionesses and the abuse that the players got was very similar to what Saka and the players got in the Euros years ago.
10:47And it is not okay.
10:50So we committed to building the antidote to that.
10:54Let's look after each other.
10:57You know, can we just be kind?
11:00And I think it comes back to that idea that everyone's burnt out.
11:05Everyone's just tired.
11:07And when people are spending four to six hours a day on social media, that's, you know, three to four months of their lives every year.
11:16And it doesn't make you feel loved or good.
11:20So it's a holistic problem.
11:23Let's lift each other up.
11:24It's interesting when you speak, because obviously you were saying, I feel like because other social media companies tend to be,
11:32it's more of a race to the bottom in terms of what keeps you in that state of engagement is often what actually override your immune system,
11:42immune system, the system, the immune system, the immune system, the immune system, the immune system, the immune system.
11:44So fear, anger, very strong emotions.
11:47And I imagine that our brains aren't built to feel that way constantly.
11:53And therefore, it's not strange to me that that is a driving force in a lot of the burnout for people.
11:59Right.
12:00It is.
12:01We believe, and it'll be evidenced over the next sort of six months, and this is why we're getting massive support from all the Scandinavian markets, for example,
12:10because they're really putting people first.
12:14Like I think this desire to move from big old, big tech control to a new world of freedom and unity,
12:25like what social media can be when you fix all the bits is amazing.
12:30But how it makes you feel, like now that I'm in this world, the world of eight,
12:34when I go to Insta and open it, I actually can feel it energetically and immediately hit my nervous system.
12:44I have to force myself.
12:46It's like, you know, the, not Lord of the Rings, but you know, the energy.
12:50Because the amazing thing about human energy is we think it's amazing that data can fly through our phones,
12:57like that's some sort of brilliant thing.
12:59It's brilliant, but not compared to the power of human energy and loving energy and good intention.
13:07We can feel that from the other side of the world when a friend of mine in Australia or America or Nigeria thinks
13:16and we're connected because the intention is pure.
13:19And that's all of that, we, in parallel to, you know, looking after each other, we need to become more resilient as well.
13:31I think we need to toughen up as well as loving each other and ourselves.
13:37Like that balance is quite difficult to strike though, isn't it?
13:39Because we've, on the one hand, we've got, let's be kind to each other.
13:44And on the other hand, we've got toughen up.
13:46And in some cases, we've still got a lot of stigma, which says we should all be a bit more resilient
13:54and we should just let this stuff roll off.
13:56But actually, if we're being bombarded with awful content, you know, actually, no, we should just be kinder to each other.
14:02So it's really hard, isn't it, to make that distinction.
14:05And I do think that even now where taking a mental health day is normalized,
14:11there are still people that will say, what are you doing that for?
14:14You need to toughen up.
14:15So I think it's really tricky until we're kind of all on the same page to be able to give adequate care.
14:23You know, say you're in a business or...
14:25And what does toughen up, mate?
14:27Exactly.
14:27Like I say it towards myself because when things are hurtful, we've got to be able to bounce back.
14:35We have to be able to.
14:37And I want to have an honest conversation with you about the tough stuff.
14:42Yeah.
14:42And I have to know that said safely.
14:46So when I say tough, I don't mean hard.
14:50What I mean is real.
14:52I want to have the really tough conversations, the difficult ones.
14:59And can we get real and honest and can we start learning?
15:02I want to learn from you fast.
15:05Does that make sense?
15:07Absolutely, yeah.
15:08And I think there's, you know, there's a need for us to all be a bit more authentic,
15:12especially on social media as well, because we are bombarded with a lot of nonsense,
15:17a lot of content that is just content for content's sake, right?
15:20It's not really enriching our lives.
15:22It's not teaching us anything.
15:24It's not really doing much for our mental health.
15:26Yeah, I think what I agree with in the whole process is about...
15:30When I talk about resilience, I think about it as a muscle that you work rather than an innate ability.
15:36So often the conversations we have in the zeitgeist are that people are resilient and they're not.
15:40And it's almost like a blanket statement about someone's character.
15:43It's quite binary, right?
15:44Yeah, it's very binary.
15:45And it's not really helpful because, as Zoe mentions,
15:48there are things you can put in place to help that resilience.
15:52And self-knowledge is really resilient.
15:54So knowing your boundaries and knowing what things...
15:57Yeah.
15:57That in itself, I think often people see resilient people
16:01and don't realise that resilience is an active process of working towards it
16:06rather than an innate feeling.
16:07We spoke about, I talked about how your day is probably more hectic than the average person's,
16:13but you will have inbuilt ways of centering yourself.
16:16And that makes you more resilient, which you've had to learn.
16:20So if someone asked you 35 years ago to do what your day was like today,
16:23I doubt that you probably would need to do that.
16:25I'd be in the corner.
16:25Yeah.
16:26In a ball, rocking backwards and forwards.
16:29And that's so important to state is because often people raise people like you as a paragon of resilience,
16:35which you are, but it's very important that you have the frank conversations
16:38of how you got to that point, which isn't a linear process.
16:42It's learning and it's sometimes failure, I assume.
16:45Totally. And it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.
16:48Still, even when you know how to cope with it, right?
16:52There are going to be times where you aren't able to scaffold yourself through the process
16:56and through that learning point, you become more resilient.
16:59And that's what I think when I hear about eight,
17:02I hear about something which is community, which helps build resilience,
17:06where often you hear about communities which are there to kind of a zero-sum game.
17:13My resilience comes at the expense of yours.
17:15So if I'm dishing out a hate to a group, does that make me more resilient if they are beneath me socially?
17:22Or do I feel that?
17:23And that's, I think, that zero-sum game of resilience, which I try to guide against.
17:28I think that's really wise, especially when we think about any person moving through the world in real life,
17:36outside of social media.
17:37We can be very shut off to each other.
17:40You talk about energy, Zoe.
17:41You know, you can feel a vibe in a room, right?
17:43We all can.
17:44And we can certainly pick up on whether someone is making us feel welcome and calm,
17:50and that's good for our nervous system,
17:52or whether they're making us feel defensive and uncomfortable.
17:55And a lot of how we, you know, we spend our day is at work, with our family, with our friends.
18:01We are almost soaking up all of our surroundings all the time.
18:05And that is one of the things that can also contribute to whether we feel safe and relaxed,
18:09or whether we feel exhausted and burnt out, right?
18:12We're social creatures, aren't we?
18:13Totally.
18:14And that's why the kids, I mean, kids in the, I've got three sons, twin 17 and 20-year-old,
18:20but kids generally are much more isolated.
18:24So when their social interactions are through Snapchat and other platforms,
18:31and it's sort of haloed in this fear-based, is someone judging me, the whole thing,
18:40it's, it's, you're not getting that beautiful human social thing, right?
18:46And that's, how do you see, you would probably see that a lot.
18:50It's the paradox of connection, right?
18:51Yeah.
18:52So I see, and I still do general practice, so I still see a lot of young children who believe they're connected,
18:58but what they actually are is isolating their thinking and in silos, whereby the world exists in the way that they see it.
19:05And that's, it's almost, we spoke again off camera about health beliefs and how they become zealots,
19:11and you only hear information that agrees with your worldview, and the other side is the enemy.
19:14And you have really, like, children who are very impressionable, who are not aware of how their daily interactions
19:25with this information shifts the way their brain is actually structured.
19:29And functionally for me, when you meet them at the end of that journey, and you try and challenge,
19:34so you check their understanding of the world, it's very lenient binary.
19:40So we talk about burnout, burnout is for the weak.
19:44That they're either incapable because they're burnt out, which is a negative health belief,
19:50or that they're not burnt out because that's for people that are weak.
19:54And that's really hard as a clinician to actually counteract once it's already inbuilt.
20:00The idea of mental health issues as weakness as well is still quite pervasive, isn't it?
20:04I mean, we have all these systems and processes now where we can take a mental health day.
20:08You know, we've got wellbeing room here at The Independent, we've got great courses, we've got coaches.
20:13I didn't have that a few years ago.
20:16You know, when I first started my career, I remember being in a situation where you might get the sack if you didn't do unpaid overtime.
20:23And everyone was very, very nervous and wound up about that.
20:27So, you know, in a way, we're moving towards more care, more consideration.
20:32But we're also maybe not teaching kids to think critically, to be more resilient at the age that they're at.
20:39So we've maybe got a way to go when it comes to actually preventing burnout before it happens,
20:44because it can be a kind of preventative medicine approach, I guess.
20:47It has to be.
20:48It has to be, one, societal.
20:52And you've mentioned some of the prevailing beliefs about mental health, because it is tied in.
20:56People with mental health issues have more issues with burnout.
21:00And it has to be individual, so ownership.
21:03So you are responsible in part for your own resilience.
21:07And that is not in terms of you are to blame for the lack of ability to cope,
21:12but it's also important that you have agency in the way that you approach that.
21:16I think adding agency to people empowers them.
21:20So giving them that responsibility to keep the environment healthy, as if that is important.
21:26Human beings, when they get behind the screen, often become something that they're not.
21:32And there's none of that social responsibility.
21:34It's the reason why when trolls get revealed, it's the people you don't expect,
21:38because those people, and that is a problem.
21:41Yeah.
21:42There's such a disconnect between our own online life and our real life.
21:45But for a lot of children, that is their life.
21:48Totally.
21:49Right?
21:50It's their whole existence.
21:52It's their whole world.
21:53There are people, and I remember I wrote a quote, and I can remember who was from an actor,
21:58is that I can destroy my life over tweets.
22:00And that's it.
22:02The entirety of your existence.
22:05And navigating a world with that knowledge,
22:07there's a lot of things that I did when I was younger, which was stupid,
22:10which wasn't captured in HD, and 4K surround sound, and I couldn't tweet it out.
22:16That doesn't exist in this world.
22:18I mean, I've got my sister's a teacher, and she'll go to McDonald's,
22:23and she'll see a kid that she has, and they'll be filming her.
22:26And that's the world that they live in.
22:28And that is scary, because there's a fear of experimentation.
22:33There's a fear of discovery, because you just fit into what the silo tells you the group is protected in.
22:40And total fear.
22:41Yeah.
22:42All the time.
22:43Like, the entire existence is fear of what will other people think.
22:48Yeah.
22:49Right?
22:49And so it sort of dissolves any, like we were, I mean, I grew up in the 80s.
22:56It was free and stupid, and bad perms, and huge shoulder pads, and dancing, and idiocy.
23:06It all comes back, though.
23:07I know, sadly.
23:08That's what I've always told me.
23:09I've always told me, it all comes back.
23:11Oh, my God.
23:12But it was free, and I just think this is not just from a social perspective,
23:19but the idea of how joyful the tough conversations are.
23:25You know when you have a real, because there's a lot of surface stuff.
23:29I mean, we've built the mental health support button.
23:33We've got the protection shield.
23:35But my hope, we did a test the other day in our conversation feed,
23:41and we had a Palestinian 17-year-old girl and an Israeli 17-year-old girl in conversation.
23:48Right?
23:49It was so beautiful.
23:52And I think us all seeing examples where we're actually getting outside ourselves,
23:59we're seeing examples of, oh, they don't agree, but there's healthy conversation.
24:06Because we've all got so much in common.
24:08And as humanity, AI as a species has been born, right?
24:12So we need, and it is learned from the old world, greed, power, control.
24:17Like for us to navigate a future, we need to love each other and look after each other
24:22and not be scared.
24:28Like fear and ego are the two things, right?
24:31And so I think that it's how we navigate knowing we can speak honestly to each other
24:40about what's broken.
24:43I wonder if either of you or maybe both of you could give some advice to anyone listening
24:47about how to have a tough conversation.
24:48Because whether that's a tough conversation with someone who you don't agree with, whether
24:53it's a conversation where you're being honest about your mental health, whether it's putting
24:56your hand up and saying, I feel burnt out to your boss, how can we approach those tough
25:02conversations with authenticity and be really honest?
25:05The thing that I always say when it comes to having a conversation is that to give people
25:10the benefit of the doubt.
25:12Totally.
25:13In terms of compassion.
25:14I have a friend who says, don't assume anyone's got malice, they could just be an idiot.
25:21Which means in the context of...
25:23I love that.
25:24In the context of they just don't understand yet, which is fine.
25:27But obviously in the way I describe the conversation is not to have a conversation speaking down
25:32to people.
25:33But good faith conversation is really important.
25:37Entering a conversation not to win an argument, but to express yourself.
25:40No one else is an authority on how you feel older than you.
25:43So it actually becomes a position of the person having the conversation, you're letting them
25:48into your world.
25:50And that conversation, if you start...
25:52Because often when you have issues with burnout, it changes the way you perceive the world.
25:58And that's what we talked about as having scaffolds around you.
26:02So the one thing I tell myself when I felt burnt out is, the people around me still love
26:07me.
26:08They just don't understand that I'm burnt out.
26:10So how can I communicate to them in a way whereby I'm assuming they want the best for
26:15me, even though I don't feel that at the moment.
26:18And that usually makes the conversation go a little bit better.
26:20So not assuming that the people around you do not care about the fact you're burnt out.
26:24That's really good advice.
26:25And I also like the idea that you...
26:27You can kind of frame something in a way that is positive, whichever way you look at it.
26:33Even if you don't necessarily believe it, you can set up, as you say, that scaffold for
26:36yourself.
26:37That's really smart.
26:38I wrote this thing the other day because the name of eight is We Are Eight, right?
26:45The eight is the representation of the infinite connection.
26:51Yeah, I love that.
26:51And the unlimited, infinite potential of us coming together.
26:55But the We Are is actually just as critical because it's everything.
27:03The I only exists when we're we.
27:07Otherwise, the I doesn't really exist.
27:10And I feel now when everyone is screaming in the void on social, screaming to be seen and
27:19heard, no one is getting seen and heard because there's no place for we.
27:24And so I often find it's amazing how you can go through a whole day and no one asks you a
27:32real question on what you think about something.
27:34And so I really try to ask, what do you think about this?
27:41I'd love your thoughts on this.
27:44A difficult question.
27:45I'd love you to be honest with me.
27:47I did this thing once where I actually asked people, this was a random, no scientific, I'm
27:55a data person, but this was not scientific.
27:57And I gently asked people if they'd ever had suicidal thoughts of everyone I met with.
28:09And I said, you do not have to answer this question.
28:13I will never share this and never share any information about you, nothing.
28:19But I'm interested to know.
28:20It was over 70%, like it was huge, the amount of people and people you would not expect.
28:29And when we dug into what are those thoughts like, how do they manifest?
28:35What do they feel like?
28:36They are real.
28:38Like this is a thought of I don't want to live.
28:43I would rather not be here.
28:45And that's when I became obsessed with, how do we address this together?
28:52How do we look after each other?
28:53How do we?
28:54And the little things that I can try and do is, you know, I'd love your thoughts on this.
29:01You got me in the rabbit hole as well.
29:02I had really weird, and it's probably not a tangent, but it actually fits in.
29:06I had one of the most profound experiences with a patient I've ever had yesterday.
29:11So I don't want to, I'm not getting too much details away, but there's a GP practice which
29:16is set up to look after the homeless.
29:18So I ran the clinic there yesterday, one of the first times I've ever done that.
29:22And I asked one of the patients there, and this is this conversation, because he used
29:27a word which really, and I'm not afraid to admit that I shed a tear afterwards, which
29:33was quite difficult, really weird for me, where I asked him how and what's happened.
29:38Because when you deal with their medical stuff, it's like, oh, bang, bang, bang, antibiotics,
29:42fine.
29:42And I had a few minutes left, and I was like, right, so what happened?
29:46Tell me what's going on and how you're feeling.
29:48And that was the first time.
29:50But the story wasn't what got me.
29:54It's what he said afterwards, because he used the phrase during the consultation, and
29:58I felt it was very real, and I felt that everyone can describe it.
30:01And he called it soul pain.
30:03He called it deep soul pain.
30:05And he goes, if you're asking me, doctor, genuinely, what has brought me this such deep
30:10soul pain?
30:11And he described, like, quite a horrific tone of events.
30:14I don't want it to go in detail.
30:16And then I was just going, OK, I don't know how to make this better, but OK.
30:22Listen, right?
30:23Yeah.
30:24And at the end, he gets his stuff, because he's rough sleeping.
30:27And he goes, thanks for listening, doc.
30:29And then he shook my hand and he walked out.
30:31And I was just like, I, oh, my God, I haven't done anything there.
30:36But I could just see his, he went from being, there was a humanisation part of it, which I
30:43wasn't expecting.
30:43I thought there was going to be an explanation.
30:46And he was a bit of a philosopher in the way he explained it.
30:49I thought it was going to be a, well, this is the world's thought.
30:52And he described it in a way which is, this is what's happened to me deep in my soul.
30:56And I'm aware of it.
30:58And thank you for listening.
30:59And I was just taken aback by it.
31:01And I think that's the bit of what you're talking about in the world, whereby when you
31:05ask people if they're in pain, deep soul pain, there's a lot of people who are just walking
31:10around with that state, waiting for someone to ask them.
31:14And there was a moment where, like, I was watching him talk and I was like, I've seen you in
31:20hundreds of people and your circumstances bad, but there's lots of walking well who, if I
31:28asked them if they're in pain, the answer is yes.
31:31And I, that is the most beautiful story.
31:34And the term soul pain, I've never heard that before.
31:38Me neither.
31:38I haven't heard it before either.
31:40It is, you've just described the state of the world.
31:44Like, I feel that as you tell the story, and that is the world, like that, we're right
31:55on the cusp of that, like where every, everyone I know, I think would be feeling.
32:01Yeah.
32:01And it's a, it's a, it's so, it's just a way of describing.
32:04I just feel there's a lot of people who have, might be having the best life in the world
32:10aesthetically looking at it, but they, what he described in that moment was kind of a
32:15state, which I don't think is just, is, I don't think it's unique.
32:20And when you talk about the way you see, that's why I think it's remarkable what you're doing,
32:24the social environment.
32:25There are people who don't know how to get themselves out of that soul pain and probably
32:30don't even realize they're in it.
32:31And they're constantly feeling it, waiting for the next piece of information that's
32:35going to relieve that soul pain.
32:37And we've all just got to hold hands and dance in the tree.
32:40But what you both do is, is kind of creating space for that to come to the surface, right?
32:47So you created a moment for someone to actually admit that that's what they're going through.
32:53You create a container in, in We Are It for people to actually talk about that.
32:58So actually the work that you're both doing, it goes such a long way to helping people
33:03deal with whether we call it soul pain, whether we call it trauma, whether we call it burnout
33:09or exhaustion, whatever that is that someone is holding on to, you're both creating space
33:15for people to actually have those conversations, which I think is remarkable.
33:17It made me feel very emotional.
33:21I am.
33:21I'm completely choked.
33:24I just didn't expect it.
33:25I didn't expect it.
33:26I honestly, you have these conversations and you almost pigeon.
33:28I think sometimes as a doctor, I like to think I'm caring, but sometimes you do get compassion
33:33fatigue because you kind of just start seeing, what's that line?
33:38If you are a hammer, everything starts looking like a nail.
33:41Yeah.
33:41So like it's health problems, it's health problems.
33:43What's wrong with you?
33:44Antibiotics, blah, blah, blah, blah.
33:45Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
33:46And then I just was just like, okay, I've sorted your problem out.
33:48I've got about 10 minutes left.
33:50I wouldn't, I thought I was going to be like, I thought I was going to hear conspiracy theories.
33:55And then he's just like, I'm, he just said, I'm just in a lot of soul pain.
33:58Do you know, it's really funny because we've built all these, hearing that, because it cuts
34:05right to why we built eight, why, and even the AI shield, which by the way, everyone said,
34:12you're not going to be able to build that.
34:13The biggest tech companies in the world haven't been able to build that.
34:16I said, no, we've got 50 AI engineers.
34:19We are going to design and build this.
34:21And it was because, well, firstly, I didn't want to build the future of social where I
34:28found out that one kid was trolled and died.
34:31Like, I can't have that on my watch in our house.
34:37And, but when I hear the, you talk about this, the urgency of that and how quite quickly,
34:48I think, in a space where, oh, can we actually breathe here?
34:53You know, can, can we, can we actually start breathing again?
34:57Because we've forgotten that when people feel so judged and they don't feel like they can
35:04breathe anymore or that someone's actually got me, even when they give you a compliment,
35:10it's, as you said, is it authentic?
35:11It is, I don't even feel like that's real and I'm still reeling from the negative.
35:18Are you really thinking that, like that, that, how do we go back to, ah, let's all just,
35:26when it, when in our conversation feed, we thought, and people are having amazing conversations,
35:31but you know, the thing that people love, good morning.
35:34Oh, how are you feeling?
35:36Like all the fundamental, we're going to create this thing that's like a, feels like a morning
35:43hug, like a positivity thing, but not fake positivity.
35:49A thing where it's vibe streams where you can choose your vibe, like, you know, choose your
35:55vibe, run through the trees, 80s dance, give me the news, whatever your vibe is.
36:01Like, you're back in control and we've got you.
36:06Do you have, do you feel, okay, I've got my people?
36:10Like, do you feel like you're-
36:12Community, right?
36:12That's the, that is the big problem, right?
36:15It's, it's finding a tribe of people where it's not based on hate.
36:22It's the, that's one of the issues.
36:24It's the, I don't know how much of this is in human psychology, but united against the
36:29cause or gain something tends to bring people together.
36:32Our tribalism tends to rear its ugly head, doesn't it?
36:35And we tend to think, oh, let's all be haters together.
36:38Yeah.
36:38And that's almost like-
36:39Rather than lovers together.
36:40It's like, it's like, um, when you, when I was in school and I failed a test, I'd always
36:44feel a lot better if other people failed it with me.
36:46Like, I just, just, just like, we all got the questions wrong.
36:49It's fine.
36:49Yeah.
36:49It's good.
36:50I can't believe you ever failed a test, actually.
36:52Strong and wrong, strong and wrong.
36:53You're a doctor.
36:54You would have been the rock star.
36:55Strong and wrong.
36:56But it is, I, I think, I think what needs to be defined is what community is and community
37:03can't be, we both hate the same people.
37:06That is the problem.
37:07That is essentially when I think about community, I'm a massive football fan.
37:10I've worked in football most of my professional life now.
37:14Um, and even I dislike certain teams and, and it takes me a while, even though I've got
37:20family members who support those teams to, to, to, if I see them in the shirt, but that's
37:25a Chelsea fan.
37:26So I'm just like, I love you, but please, um, but it is, it's one of those things whereby
37:32it's inbuilt to us and it's a conscious effort to guide against that.
37:36Um, I don't understand sometimes it is quite silly.
37:38The problem is, is when that, that silly fall, I mean, it's obviously the tribalism of football
37:43is quite minor, becomes rule world's hate.
37:47And that, I think, is fortunately the world we're in at the moment whereby there's actions
37:53which are created by people who have never interacted with each other.
37:57Right.
37:58Right?
37:59Yeah.
38:00We look at Tattle, you know, it was one of these huge sites where everyone was united in
38:05just saying the worst things about influencers and celebrities.
38:10And they loved it.
38:12And these threads got really out of control.
38:13And I wrote an article a while back about how my name popped up on there.
38:17And, um, it was terrifying to see people who I'd never met speaking about me out of context.
38:23And, um.
38:25And it does hurt.
38:25Like it hurts.
38:26It's one of those things whereby.
38:28You're beautiful and amazing.
38:30You're wonderful.
38:31No matter who you are, I do think that our innate defensiveness of protecting ourselves
38:40and our people, people that we like gets there, that it still invokes a really visceral reaction
38:45in us.
38:46Like it's, you can, I always, my friends always say, well, just turn off the computer.
38:51Well, no, I still, I still feel like, I feel like they've just shouted that in my face.
38:55Like, like, but isn't it funny because we've forgotten the feeling or it's really not funny.
39:01It's the truth.
39:02It's really horrific.
39:03It's interesting.
39:04It's interesting.
39:04It's, and horrific, right?
39:06Because we've got forgotten what, what safety brings.
39:11Like I actually want you to, to be able to tell me, Zoe, these are the things I really
39:18find challenging about you and to trust it enough.
39:24Because I want to learn.
39:25I want to get better.
39:26I want to improve myself.
39:28I'm still going to be beating myself up that I said we have to toughen up.
39:31Like, like we beat ourselves up because I tell myself every day, we beat ourselves up.
39:40And if we, if we have that space, if we can make mistakes and not think, oh shit, I've
39:50said something wrong.
39:51I'm going to get abused.
39:53Or tell me that, tell me the worst things about me because I know you love me enough
39:59not to mind.
40:00You know, that, that.
40:03The idea of having a safety net, I suppose.
40:05The idea of leaping, taking a risk, being cringe and not worrying that you're going to
40:10fall from a great height that actually you're going to be caught.
40:13Because then I can be resilient.
40:15If, if I know under it, we're going to catch you and you can tell me the worst things and
40:23it's okay.
40:24Oh my God.
40:25Because we're going to discover we've got so much more in common.
40:27Where are our minds and our brains to think we're different as human beings?
40:34Like we have so much in common.
40:37I think my question to you is that I think that is beautiful.
40:41And I do find that incredible.
40:43Do you, do you think, and this is my business hat on, is there, why do you think that other
40:49companies lean in towards the controversy?
40:52Do you, is it because it's, I don't know how, yeah, it's all following the money trail.
40:59So the company I built before this, we tracked ad spend around the world.
41:02I mean, this year, and we literally saw Facebook and Insta take all the money out of the market.
41:08This year, it'll be $200 billion that will go to, to Meta.
41:13None of that gets shared with people, communities, charities.
41:17So we, we spent four years restructuring the economic models.
41:23So on eight, we make our money in the same way.
41:27So McDonald's will pay us for an ad, but we share 50% with people.
41:32So people get paid when they watch an ad.
41:36Five, 4% goes to a charity of the brand's choice.
41:401% to Planet Projects.
41:425% to a creator and infrastructure fund.
41:45I was saying all your great things about the NHS, because I want to take 1% of that, 1% of
41:51that and put it into a nurse's fund, 1% and put it into a teacher's fund.
41:57Because whether we notice it or not, big tech are the global governments.
42:03They are taking the money from the time and value of the people, and they're not putting
42:08back into society.
42:09So because our model takes the ad out of the feed, you have the choice to watch.
42:15People complain on eight about not getting enough ads, but it unlocks everything.
42:21People can pay their Spotify, et cetera.
42:22But on what that means is in the old world, if they're jamming ads into a feed, and so they
42:30have to keep you scrolling longer.
42:32So they jam more ads in and make more money.
42:35The only way, we want to kick people off after eight minutes and go and live and whatever.
42:42If you have to keep people scrolling to make more money, to deliver against shareholder
42:49return, you have to make it toxic.
42:51So the algorithms have become worse and worse and worse and worse.
42:54It is all money.
42:56It's money and it's greed and power and control.
43:00This is another question to lead up, and it's still on track.
43:04I imagine the AI revolution is accelerating that inequality, as in before, adverts were
43:10quite, they were smart, but they're not as smart as they are now.
43:13And they're dangerously not smart, because AI, AI is fast, but it doesn't have the filter.
43:22That's why we've now just built this golden shield, not just to protection from abuse,
43:27but of misinformation, because it's like it pulls an AI query.
43:33Oh, someone said that eating a rock every day is really good for your health.
43:39And so it's spitting out.
43:40AI has now killed a child in the US.
43:44Like it is pulling all human knowledge, and that is so dangerous.
43:52So you combine that with the super highways of death, and I sort of, I think of these
44:02platforms, because they don't let you out, I think of them as just destroying our lives.
44:07They don't let you out, whereas we link out from every post.
44:11Go back to your website.
44:13If you're a musician, go and download that on Spotify.
44:16It's life versus death, actually.
44:20I changed my name a year ago.
44:23I was changing my last name.
44:25I've got a beautiful husband, and his name was Sanskrit.
44:29His last name was Kala, Sanskrit.
44:32So I thought, I've always hated my first name.
44:34I'm going to change that too.
44:36So I was Sue, and I changed it to Zoe, which means life in Greek.
44:42I got so much shit, by the way, about changing.
44:45I thought, hang on a minute.
44:47Surely that is one thing that we own.
44:50Own, like we, I could call myself, it's our name, but it's literally, do we choose life
44:58and togetherness, or do we choose death?
45:05And I think for me, that's the one thing that, you know, being able to laugh, love who you're
45:11working with.
45:12Otherwise, I don't think, I think the world's at a point where they're just, there's soul
45:18pain.
45:19I'm going to literally be thinking of you every day.
45:21I'm going to be quoting you every day with that story.
45:26Otherwise, but there is hope now.
45:31Like there is, when we come together, it's so beautiful.
45:35I guess it's the idea that we do have to accept our humanity.
45:39We have to accept that we are stronger together.
45:41We can do more together, and that we can't do it all.
45:44The idea that we are in intense competition, that social media wants, well, certainly, you
45:50know, the model for these tech companies is growth at any cost.
45:54Why does it have to be at any cost?
45:55Why does it have to be at the cost of our health?
45:57I think the idea really is that there doesn't have to necessarily be a cost if we spot the
46:03signs of burnout, if we spot the signs of poor mental health, and we hold a mirror
46:07up to each other.
46:08Yeah, I think when Zoe talks about the money and talks about the idea that there is profitability
46:19in our burnout, that is something that worries me a little bit because that, yeah, that rings
46:24true, doesn't it?
46:25If you are a commodity, which is your attention, then it makes sense to spend that until it's
46:32done, right?
46:33There is no, because then you'll come back, right?
46:37Because you're addicted to this, you're addicted to the problem.
46:40We can still, we can flog you, and then you can, we can let you rest and come back, right?
46:46There's no benefit in you keeping your interaction very small for a period of time.
46:51So, and that's, and I think there needs to be a way of almost changing the conversation
46:58around that, and actually, and this is why these conversations are important, recognising
47:01that that is a massive contributor for how you feel in the world, and you're talking about
47:07taking social media breaks.
47:08That is, I've done that before, and I've literally, it's almost like I've taken a happy
47:13pill where I've just like, the world is not bad anymore.
47:16Like, what's going on?
47:17And it's because you're top of your news feeds, the things that get you emotionally
47:21hepped up.
47:22And I used to be in the world where I used to wake up in the morning, check my phone, and
47:25before I get my day going, I've had half an hour of the worst bits have happened whilst
47:28I've slept.
47:30And you know when you don't see your friends in the feed, so you keep scrolling?
47:34Yeah.
47:34That's also intentional.
47:36Whereas, because that keeps you scrolling.
47:39Because on some unconscious level, you go into an unconscious brain state, you keep scrolling,
47:47but you're actually looking, you're searching.
47:49Oh, wow.
47:50So we have the main feed, and then we have the following feed, everyone you're following,
47:55and your friends.
47:57Just that, no ads, all in chronological order.
48:00But because it's this, it's the cruelest thing, actually, to, and actually, the addiction
48:07to our insecurities, they've literally got us to follow, you know, follow me on Instagram,
48:15follow me, follow me.
48:16How many followers have you got?
48:17I've got this many followers.
48:19It's a complete scam, because the reality is in the back end.
48:23When I look at Taylor Swift, or whatever, 430 million followers, she has to block comments
48:29because of hate, and then she gets 0.01% engagement, because they strangle Vogue magazine, right?
48:4050 million followers, 100 comments on a reel.
48:44And that makes people say, what did I do wrong?
48:48What, like, I feel so insecure, so I work it.
48:50That's, it's like playing the casino.
48:53We'll never win, whereas on eight, we unlock the algorithms, so your followers see you.
48:59And the natural behaviour, people get often more comments than even love, because it's,
49:07we're seeing just natural social behaviour.
49:11We've been like, we're going to, my belief, I'm hopeful, because it's like we've been in an,
49:19it's sort of an abusive relationship with a boyfriend, but we haven't realised it.
49:24And we've all been in it together.
49:27And we're so scared of leaving.
49:30Then we're going to just dip our toe in over here, and then we're going to go, oh, my God.
49:37There's life outside of this.
49:38How do you win the war, then?
49:40This is why I find fascinating by what you're saying, because it sounds like you've identified
49:45the problem, and you're working against a system which is designed to appeal to the
49:50worse angels of our nature.
49:52It's almost like, it's like me as a doctor saying, eat healthily, but everything that
49:56tastes good is literally going to kill you.
49:58Keep doing what you're doing, but actually, you are going to feel totally amazing to do
50:06this for eight minutes a day.
50:07Oh, okay.
50:08So it's, keep doing what you're doing.
50:11I actually, like, literally, keep doing, because the worst thing you can do is feel bad about
50:16something else.
50:17We all feel bad about everything.
50:20Keep doing that.
50:21Now, dip your toe in over here, and gently build, because, and this is why it's key for
50:29us, the whole Scandinavian markets, and this whole Operation Northern Lights, and then when
50:35you like it enough, you invite a friend, and da, da, da.
50:38We only need 1% of the human population, 80 million people, together on eight, and we will
50:46be, firstly, pumping more money back to people, planet projects, and charities than the Gates
50:52Foundation in one year.
50:53Like, 1% of humanity can change the world, totally, but then imagine we're not just, we're
51:02a collective, so we'll be able to send a push notification saying, watch this ad and
51:08donate to get blankets to Syrian refugees today, or watch this ad and get someone through
51:15a fair share of meal, we can get a meal to someone for 20p, or watch this, or close your
51:21eyes for 60 seconds, let's all do this at 8 o'clock tonight, and imagine two groups on
51:28a border walking towards each other and hugging.
51:32I love that visualization, because there's obviously a lot of studies that have been done
51:35on the power of thought throughout the years, you know, the power of meditation, you know,
51:40certain studies won't necessarily mention the names of the people involved, because,
51:45you know, things have gone a bit funny over the years with regards to that, but there
51:49are, you know, there are these studies about group meditation actually being able to change
51:53how people feel afterwards for a long time, and how that actually ripples out and impacts
51:58others.
51:59So, there is a lot to that kind of group, collective, positive thought, right?
52:03My question on that is, it's actually one of more practicality, right?
52:09So, I'm really inspired by what you're talking about, what I find it really interesting, and
52:13I imagine, and I can see this, it's becoming and will become successful.
52:18How do you, as a person, guard against something like 8 becoming super successful, and then the
52:27the actual pull towards becoming negative, because I've believed that a lot of social
52:32networks create, to, are created in order to connect people, but almost morph into something
52:40that they're designed not to be.
52:42How do you, do you plan for that day?
52:45I've built it and designed it from the beginning for that, because fixing the economic model first
52:53was the most important thing, and because, you know, they just created a, I'm sure they
53:00didn't mean it, right?
53:02We're free and always will be, but if you, unless you work out how you can support the
53:08platform costs, the engineers, the framework, without exploiting the people, you will end
53:14up being the same thing.
53:16What we worked out is people are more valuable to themselves than us, and we can be transparent
53:23and highly profitable, but in a transparent way, and help everyone when you share.
53:29And the funny thing is, it's literally sharing the money transparently.
53:35It's fully sustainable.
53:36Like, this could be home base for the next 10 years, because the economic models work, and
53:42then all the mental health stuff and everything else.
53:45And I, that freedom, our society, we as humans haven't experienced that level of freedom.
53:54Like the idea that a kid, if I was having my life again, I would have just had a cooking
53:59show, a little cooking video thing on eight from when I was 12 years old, and I would have
54:06hopefully built up 40,000 followers.
54:09If I had 40,000 followers, and they were all seeing me on eight, I'd be making probably
54:15not just from watching ads, but if I could distribute my stuff and talk about brands and
54:21have 40,000 followers, I'd be making around 10, 20 grand a year from direct brand deals
54:28easily.
54:29I feel like you and I both missed a check there.
54:30Yeah, no, this is, this is a now, you know, this is enough exploitation.
54:40It's out the other side of this, it's.
54:43And I love the fact that throughout all of this, there's been this golden thread of do
54:48a little bit, do a small bit, do it, you know, a small habit.
54:51So I want to ask you as my final question, I ask all the guests on well enough, this question,
54:57and it's hard to get it into one answer, but if there was one wellness non-negotiable,
55:03one habit or thing that you would advise, what would be the one thing that you would
55:09say is your, your big wellness rule?
55:15As a doctor, that must be quite a hard one to answer.
55:17As a doctor, I'm running through the list.
55:18I'm talking, I'm going to go quite personal here because I know how, how much of a nightmare
55:23I can be when I haven't done this.
55:25So mine will be movement.
55:28Mine will be conscious.
55:32I'm not talking about exercise.
55:33I'm talking about getting myself moving, get myself walking and actually dedicating 45 minutes
55:41a day.
55:42And I call it soft strokes, like period of time when I'm going to be kind to myself.
55:46And that often involves movement.
55:48That's it.
55:48That would, that would be mine.
55:49I love that.
55:50And also there's, you know, there's so much research that shows that you don't have to
55:53do high intensity workout.
55:54Walking is the one, right?
55:56Just getting yourself moving is really, really important for longevity.
56:00So I love that.
56:01So simple as well.
56:01Yeah.
56:02What about you Zoe?
56:03What was your one wellness non-negotiable be?
56:07Do you know, my, my mother died, passed recently, and I actually feel her everywhere now.
56:13But she was magical and beautiful.
56:16And even at the very end, she taught me to, the, the, the, the thing was let go.
56:24And because I'm, since a little girl, I was always told, you're so sensitive.
56:30You're so sensitive.
56:31Stop being so sensitive.
56:32And I, and I, like, I feel it deeply, which the soul pain, like, so I think it's try and
56:40just let it go.
56:41Every day, the things that hurt you, just let it go.
56:45So if I can do that throughout the day and then survive the day, I'm happy.
56:54And then hug, try and find a bit of a laughter moment.
56:58Laughter is a survival mechanism for me.
57:02Um, laugh at yourself, at the stupidity, at the insanity of this planet.
57:09If there were other planets looking down, they'd be going, what are they, what are they
57:14doing?
57:16Um, that is great advice.
57:18Let go.
57:19And, and, you know, it's hard, isn't it?
57:21We, we have to train ourselves to get used to that feeling.
57:24But if you are able to do it, it can really change your life, right?
57:30Amazing.
57:30Well, thank you so much for such a brilliant conversation.
57:33I have learned so much just from talking to you both.
57:36Um, if you want to download We Are Eight, you can find it on the App Store and Google Play.
57:41Um, have a little look at it.
57:42You can find Dr. Amos on television and on Instagram.
57:47Um, do you have a book or anything out that you wanted me to mention?
57:49No, not yet.
57:50Hopefully, out in the next few years.
57:51There'll be a book.
57:52There'll be a book.
57:53Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Well Enough.
57:56We will see you next time and in the meantime, stay well.
57:59We'll see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time and see you next time
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