Maya Raichoora and Ailey Jolie on how to find a therapist and whether we all need therapy

The Independent

Well Enough episode 2: Therapy with Ailey Jolie and Maya RaichooraThe Independent

Transcript

00:00:00Finding therapists is a bit like dating.

00:00:02Yeah, you've got to also just sense the energy.

00:00:05Never encourage anyone to put whipped cream on garbage.

00:00:07Never encourage a positive affirmation or a positive reframe

00:00:11until you know what's underneath that.

00:00:13We often force ourselves to never have a negative thought

00:00:16or like we're not allowed to feel sad or angry.

00:00:20But that's actually the joy of being human.

00:00:24This may be controversial.

00:00:26I don't know if everyone needs therapy.

00:00:30Welcome to Well Enough, the podcast from The Independent

00:00:35that helps make sense of the weird world of wellness

00:00:38and answers the big health questions we're all asking.

00:00:41I'm your host, Emily Lavinia, and together with my guests,

00:00:44we'll be unpacking trends, myth-busting,

00:00:46and making sense of the wellbeing boom.

00:00:48Today, we're discussing therapy, mental health,

00:00:51and whether we're receiving too much or not enough validation

00:00:53when it comes to our feelings.

00:00:55I'm joined by two people who are experts on our emotional selves,

00:00:58the power of the mind, and how to support it better.

00:01:01Ailey Jolie is a chartered psychologist.

00:01:03She's an expert on the mind-body connection,

00:01:05and she's a specialist in trauma processing.

00:01:08Her work explores the power of embodiment,

00:01:10self-compassion, and moving beyond what we think we know about ourselves.

00:01:14Maya Raitura is the UK's leading expert

00:01:16on visualisation and mental fitness.

00:01:18She teaches elite athletes and high-powered executives

00:01:21how to become more resilient,

00:01:23and her book, Visualise, teaches us how to think, feel,

00:01:26and perform at the top 1%.

00:01:28Maya Ailey, thank you so much for joining me for Well Enough.

00:01:33It's exciting to be here.

00:01:35It's a pleasure to have you both on the sofa.

00:01:37So we're going to talk about a subject today

00:01:39that is quite difficult and in many ways quite hard to unpack.

00:01:43We're going to be talking about mental health and therapy.

00:01:46Everyone is probably very familiar with the idea of therapy by now

00:01:50because we have experienced this boom

00:01:52in the way that we talk about mental health,

00:01:55we're encouraged to talk about mental health,

00:01:57but there's still somewhat, I think, of a stigma

00:01:59around talking about our feelings,

00:02:01and that might be because as Brits we're quite closed

00:02:05and we struggle with this kind of thing,

00:02:06but why do you think it is so difficult for us

00:02:09to maybe get into therapy

00:02:11or even talk about our feelings in the first place?

00:02:14One of the reasons why I perceive and believe

00:02:17it's so hard for people to get into therapy

00:02:19and talk about their feelings

00:02:21is one, we receive absolutely no education around it.

00:02:26There isn't a program,

00:02:28it's not integrated into our learning systems

00:02:30to actually have the capacity and the ability to go,

00:02:34what is that sensation I'm feeling inside myself?

00:02:37Oh, the emotion of anger makes me act like this.

00:02:41That type of intentionality and pause

00:02:44isn't integrated into our learning system.

00:02:46So when someone comes to therapy

00:02:48and they really want to express how they feel,

00:02:51I'm always like, we have to take a step back

00:02:52and really acknowledge that there's this big learning curve

00:02:56of learning how to do this.

00:02:57And oftentimes that requires really unlearning

00:03:00a lot of the things that we've picked up

00:03:02around emotions, around feeling.

00:03:04Let that be from culture, our own family system.

00:03:07And so when someone is really struggling

00:03:11with that first initial step,

00:03:12I think there's such a space there

00:03:14to actually provide psychoeducation,

00:03:17like I just did there,

00:03:18but also some cultural education

00:03:20around the systems that we're in

00:03:21and how emotions and feelings

00:03:24have been framed by our external world.

00:03:26So we kind of get in our own way a little bit,

00:03:29don't we?

00:03:29And I suppose, Maya,

00:03:30you've got a lot of experience

00:03:32of speaking with people

00:03:33who struggle with being in their own way

00:03:36and don't necessarily have the tools

00:03:38to be able to move past

00:03:40what they think they know about themselves.

00:03:42I think this is the crux

00:03:43of the problem we're in at the moment.

00:03:45And it's why I term myself a mental fitness expert,

00:03:49because again and again, I was on panels

00:03:52and people would ask me

00:03:53to explain why mental health was important.

00:03:56And I just found it really a relevant question

00:03:58because we'd never question

00:04:00if your physical health is important.

00:04:02We know that.

00:04:03And I found that it was like talking about,

00:04:06you know, running is important for you,

00:04:08but if you don't go on the run,

00:04:10it doesn't make a difference.

00:04:11And so for me, I think with the mind

00:04:14and with a lot of these practices,

00:04:16whether it's managing emotions,

00:04:17building your confidence, self-awareness,

00:04:20action is super important.

00:04:22And I think we're a little bit stuck

00:04:24in just talking about it.

00:04:25I really urge that consideration of,

00:04:28well, what can I do about this?

00:04:30How can I actually invest in those tools?

00:04:33I grew up in the UK, but I'm South Asian.

00:04:36So my family is, you know,

00:04:38born and raised in Kenya, then India.

00:04:40And what I found is that whilst we were able

00:04:43to have emotions, it was considered quite weak.

00:04:48And so like, I always remember,

00:04:50like if I cried, it would be like,

00:04:51oh, just stop crying.

00:04:52You know, like we got to move on quite quickly.

00:04:54And honestly, sometimes it really helped.

00:04:57You just got on with life and you,

00:04:59that's why we probably have very good work ethics.

00:05:01But I didn't realise I was suppressing so much,

00:05:06so much of that.

00:05:07And it's heavy.

00:05:08It's really heavy.

00:05:09And again, it's because I just didn't have the awareness,

00:05:13but also the tools.

00:05:15Because I think it's one thing to say,

00:05:16oh, hey, I'm feeling really angry.

00:05:18But it's another thing to be like,

00:05:19well, do I need to do anything about it?

00:05:21How do I process that?

00:05:22How do I just sit in the mud with it?

00:05:24I think we're quite scared of doing that.

00:05:27Whether you are five-year-old,

00:05:29whether you are 50,

00:05:31whether you are an elite athlete,

00:05:33we all have those limitations,

00:05:35but it doesn't mean they have to stop us necessarily.

00:05:38Absolutely.

00:05:38And I think it's really interesting

00:05:40what you said there, Myra,

00:05:41about the fact that we can sometimes

00:05:43be perceived as being weak

00:05:45if we admit that we are struggling.

00:05:47I felt that myself, you know, growing up.

00:05:49I felt that if I admitted

00:05:50that I felt a bit sad or a bit anxious,

00:05:53then people were going to think less of me

00:05:55or I wasn't going to get the same opportunities.

00:05:58And I've, you know, been having therapy

00:05:59for almost a decade now.

00:06:02And it's changed my life and really helped me.

00:06:04So I'm always quite nervous

00:06:06when people talk about being perceived as weak

00:06:10because actually therapy has made me a lot stronger,

00:06:13a lot more resilient.

00:06:14And I've done so many different types.

00:06:16You know, there's CBT, there's talking therapy,

00:06:19there's psychodynamic,

00:06:20there's internal family systems.

00:06:22I suppose a lot of people,

00:06:24when they think therapy,

00:06:25they might just think lying on a couch,

00:06:28talking to someone who's listening.

00:06:29But there are all these different styles

00:06:31and it is a very modern practice now.

00:06:33Aelia, I wonder if you can maybe explain

00:06:35for the listener who might not necessarily know

00:06:38what therapy is or what a big umbrella it is,

00:06:41you know, what the different types are

00:06:42and how they differ

00:06:44and how they might be applicable

00:06:45for some people but not for others.

00:06:47I love that you included this question

00:06:48of the different types of therapy

00:06:50and the different styles.

00:06:51Because I am a clinician

00:06:53who has training from the States,

00:06:56Canada, the UK, Europe, Australia.

00:06:59I've worked in different countries.

00:07:00And so I also supervise therapists

00:07:02or mentor therapists from different countries.

00:07:05And what that allows me to see

00:07:07is how much the culture actually impacts

00:07:09the training and this practice.

00:07:12And I remember when I came to the UK

00:07:14and I myself was looking for a therapist

00:07:16and I sat down across from this

00:07:18like beautifully credentialed therapist,

00:07:20but they were so cold with me

00:07:23and they were so reserved

00:07:25and reflective, validating,

00:07:28but I didn't know who they were in the room.

00:07:31And I had the wisdom

00:07:32because I am a therapist to know,

00:07:35okay, this is someone

00:07:35who comes from a more behavioral background,

00:07:38meaning cognitive behavioral therapy,

00:07:40which really looks at your cognition.

00:07:42Okay, these are your thoughts.

00:07:43I'll change my behavior.

00:07:44My thinking will change.

00:07:45Such forth is the theory.

00:07:47But they also come from

00:07:48a more Freudian background.

00:07:50I have a master's degree in depth psychology.

00:07:52I know Freud intimately,

00:07:55but I also know for myself

00:07:57that humanistic aspect

00:07:59and the relational aspect,

00:08:00which is more present in North America

00:08:03and how we're trained.

00:08:04We are trained to bring more of us in the room,

00:08:07meaning we use self-disclosure

00:08:09in a really precise and articulate way

00:08:12when we are feeling like the client

00:08:15would actually benefit from knowing

00:08:16you're really not alone.

00:08:17I've been through something

00:08:18maybe a little bit similar.

00:08:19I'll center myself

00:08:20and then I'll move deeply out of the way

00:08:22so we stay with your process.

00:08:24That practice, even in the UK,

00:08:26is not as present in therapists.

00:08:29And so I always say to people

00:08:30when they're looking for a therapist

00:08:32to get really curious

00:08:35about what they're really looking for.

00:08:37Are we looking for strategies?

00:08:39Cognitive behavioral therapy

00:08:40is going to be amazing.

00:08:42Mindfulness-based cognitive therapy,

00:08:43acceptance and commitment therapy,

00:08:45some of these more behavioral techniques.

00:08:47But if we're looking for more

00:08:48of that relational aspect

00:08:49where we want to feel felt

00:08:51or we want to feel challenged

00:08:53or we know that there's something

00:08:55from our past that we can't remember

00:08:57and we have all this sticky shame,

00:09:00look for someone who has

00:09:01more of those modern approaches

00:09:03as they're framed here in the UK,

00:09:05like internal family systems

00:09:06or a somatic approach.

00:09:08And so it's just also getting

00:09:10into the awareness

00:09:12that there are all of these different types.

00:09:15and actually what's most important

00:09:19is finding your fit,

00:09:20which means trying out different approaches,

00:09:23reading the books before you go

00:09:25because it is expensive to go try out

00:09:27a lot of different therapists,

00:09:28just getting a little tidbit

00:09:30so that you get clarity

00:09:31around what's most important.

00:09:32Is it some techniques

00:09:34like cognitive behavioral therapy?

00:09:35There's a relational aspect to that too.

00:09:37Or is it more of that felt sense,

00:09:39which you're going to get

00:09:40with more of a somatic practitioner?

00:09:42So if you're comfortable too,

00:09:43would you tell me

00:09:44about your first experience of therapy?

00:09:47When you ask that question,

00:09:48two experiences actually go through my mind.

00:09:51And why I differentiate them

00:09:53is because of the accessibility

00:09:56and one being more short-term

00:09:57and one being more long-term.

00:09:59And so I actually accessed therapy

00:10:01for the first time

00:10:02when I was quite young.

00:10:03It was an art therapist.

00:10:04I was about four years old

00:10:05and I got pulled out

00:10:07and they kind of knew

00:10:08something was going on.

00:10:10And so I had this journey

00:10:11throughout my adolescence

00:10:12of engaging with therapy,

00:10:13but always more short-term.

00:10:15Later in my early 20s,

00:10:17I always think of my first therapist

00:10:19really being at a trauma center

00:10:24that actually Gabor Mate,

00:10:26who's quite famous now.

00:10:27He was the clinical director

00:10:29of that trauma therapy center.

00:10:30And why I think of that

00:10:31as my first kind of therapeutic experience,

00:10:34even though I had been

00:10:35in and out of therapy

00:10:36for most of my young adult life,

00:10:39is because that was the first time

00:10:41I felt really seen

00:10:43and met and understood

00:10:44by a therapist.

00:10:45And I had dabbled a lot.

00:10:47And I think there is this dabbling

00:10:49when we are trying

00:10:50to find a therapist.

00:10:51There's this assumption

00:10:52that if they have the credentials,

00:10:53they'll be the right fit

00:10:54and therefore I'll really experience

00:10:56and benefit from this practice.

00:10:58But actually,

00:10:59it's all about finding

00:11:00the right relationship.

00:11:01And if you don't find that,

00:11:03everything that the therapist

00:11:04is offering might be helpful,

00:11:06but it won't actually allow you

00:11:09to get to really where you want to go

00:11:12or to resolve the things

00:11:14that led you into that room originally.

00:11:16And so I've had, you know,

00:11:19both the experience of short-term therapy

00:11:21and that being beneficial.

00:11:23And then also this later experience

00:11:25that I always kind of hold

00:11:26as more of my first therapeutic experience

00:11:28because it was the first time

00:11:30I felt met and really acknowledged.

00:11:31And so I always invite people,

00:11:33if therapy hasn't felt right,

00:11:35to keep trying

00:11:37because there is someone

00:11:39that will feel like a fit.

00:11:40And when you have that fit,

00:11:42then all of the credentials

00:11:44and the training

00:11:44and all of that stuff

00:11:46that is really needed

00:11:47to support someone

00:11:47in their mental health

00:11:48if they're struggling

00:11:49can shine and really take them

00:11:52to where they want to go.

00:11:53I totally agree with you.

00:11:54Everything just slots into place,

00:11:55doesn't it?

00:11:56And I've had that same experience

00:11:57where I had a therapist,

00:12:00my first therapist,

00:12:01who just made sense to me.

00:12:03I felt like she really understood me.

00:12:04She really knew what I was going through

00:12:06and she was really able to help.

00:12:08A few years later,

00:12:08when I returned to therapy,

00:12:10I went for someone

00:12:10with exactly the same credentials,

00:12:12the same process.

00:12:14Didn't click.

00:12:14Wasn't a fit.

00:12:15It just didn't feel like

00:12:17this person could help me.

00:12:18So that connection is so important

00:12:20and really good advice.

00:12:22Just to add to that point,

00:12:24I think therapy

00:12:25or finding therapists

00:12:25is a bit like dating.

00:12:27Yeah.

00:12:27I think you're right.

00:12:29Yeah, you've got to also

00:12:30just sense the energy.

00:12:31You know, sometimes

00:12:31if you don't feel safe enough

00:12:33or you just don't vibe with someone,

00:12:35you're also allowed

00:12:35to do it based on that.

00:12:36And I found that

00:12:37that was important for me as well.

00:12:40So my first experience of it

00:12:42was actually in university,

00:12:43but I'd gone for

00:12:44a very specific reason.

00:12:46I knew I was struggling

00:12:48and a lot of it was to do

00:12:49with the illness

00:12:50I was going through at the time

00:12:51because I think,

00:12:53I don't know,

00:12:53no one can really prepare you

00:12:55mentally or physically

00:12:56for what that's going to do.

00:12:57But also I didn't stay

00:12:59in therapy for that long.

00:13:01I'd done a lot of the

00:13:02unraveling in the therapy

00:13:04and I wanted to move forward,

00:13:05hence why I then ended up

00:13:06going down the coaching route.

00:13:08But I definitely started

00:13:09because I knew

00:13:11I couldn't do it on my own.

00:13:14For a long time,

00:13:14I did the whole self-therapy thing.

00:13:17And actually on this note,

00:13:18I saw an article that said

00:13:20that now young people

00:13:22are using chat GPT

00:13:25as a therapist,

00:13:27like a lot.

00:13:29And I don't know,

00:13:29I'd be interested to hear

00:13:30what you think about this as well

00:13:31because, you know,

00:13:32out of curiosity,

00:13:33I also tried.

00:13:33I was like,

00:13:33well, what does it say?

00:13:35And it is interesting, isn't it?

00:13:36Because we all just want

00:13:37that bit of a support system

00:13:39or someone to even just

00:13:40bounce our thoughts,

00:13:42feelings onto.

00:13:43And I don't know

00:13:45if it's a good thing

00:13:46or bad thing

00:13:46because obviously

00:13:47I don't think chat GPT

00:13:48is trained in that.

00:13:49I don't know.

00:13:50But it's interesting

00:13:51because people clearly want it

00:13:52and whether we can make it

00:13:53a thing where,

00:13:55like you said,

00:13:56therapy doesn't have to mean

00:13:57you have to be in a room

00:13:58and you're like crying on a sofa.

00:14:00You can do therapeutic activities

00:14:02is also important.

00:14:04But that was my initial experience

00:14:06and then I moved more

00:14:07into coaching.

00:14:09But I think you've got

00:14:09to ask yourself,

00:14:11yeah, what do I need right now

00:14:12and what is going to help me?

00:14:14Absolutely.

00:14:15And I am fascinated

00:14:16by AI therapists.

00:14:18When I wrote my big piece

00:14:20about the wellness trends

00:14:22to know for 2025,

00:14:23one of the big ones

00:14:24was AI therapists

00:14:26and AI coaches

00:14:27because I am seeing

00:14:28so much of this.

00:14:30We've covered it a lot

00:14:30with The Independent

00:14:31and I'm also receiving

00:14:32pitches daily

00:14:33about people

00:14:35who now have

00:14:36almost a weird

00:14:38sort of codependent relationship

00:14:39with AI as a therapist.

00:14:41Yeah.

00:14:41And also, you know,

00:14:43therapists telling me

00:14:44why in some ways

00:14:45this is a good thing

00:14:46because of huge waiting lists

00:14:49and, you know,

00:14:49the ability to outsource

00:14:50and therapists telling me

00:14:52why this is really insidious

00:14:54and why there is

00:14:55a real dark shadow

00:14:56around this

00:14:57which is why we should

00:14:58potentially be quite wary.

00:15:00I think, Ailey,

00:15:01you can probably speak to that

00:15:02as a qualified therapist.

00:15:03What are your thoughts on it?

00:15:05I actually am not

00:15:06so worried about it

00:15:07and I've had lots of people

00:15:08come to me

00:15:09and be like,

00:15:10would you be interested

00:15:11in being in our startup

00:15:12or like,

00:15:13how could we take

00:15:13this technique of therapy

00:15:15that you're trained in

00:15:16and bridge it over?

00:15:17So people want to turn you

00:15:18into an AI therapist

00:15:19or want to use you

00:15:20as a learning model.

00:15:20Of course, yeah.

00:15:21Fascinating.

00:15:22Which is an interesting

00:15:24business proposition

00:15:24but to me

00:15:25it just seems so silly.

00:15:28It's like you don't understand

00:15:30what therapy is.

00:15:31Therapy is a relationship

00:15:33in which slowly

00:15:34we build trust over time

00:15:36where there is enough safety

00:15:38in the room,

00:15:39it's not going to be fully safe,

00:15:41where someone else

00:15:42starts to see

00:15:43your darkest shadowy pieces

00:15:45and can support you

00:15:46in starting to understand

00:15:48how that is moving

00:15:49your life.

00:15:51And ideally,

00:15:52therapy,

00:15:52and this is a giant misconception,

00:15:55is that therapy

00:15:55isn't forward thinking.

00:15:57It is deeply forward thinking

00:15:58when we have gone back

00:16:00into enough of the shadow

00:16:02and the past

00:16:03and we stay with the process

00:16:04where it moves us

00:16:05into how we change

00:16:06into our future.

00:16:08And so,

00:16:08when I have someone

00:16:10who comes,

00:16:10okay,

00:16:10would you want to make

00:16:11like a therapeutic

00:16:12coaching chatbot?

00:16:13I'm like,

00:16:14but it's not going

00:16:15to be therapy.

00:16:16This is maybe

00:16:17an amazing tool

00:16:18and I can support you

00:16:19in that,

00:16:20in it being therapeutic

00:16:21in some intent,

00:16:23but therapy is a relationship

00:16:25with a person

00:16:26and that is actually

00:16:28what people want to receive,

00:16:30which I think is a huge part

00:16:31of why there has been

00:16:32this emergence

00:16:33of more people

00:16:34kind of engaging

00:16:35in therapy

00:16:36and being interested about it

00:16:37is because they have heard

00:16:39that story

00:16:39from that friend

00:16:40who went,

00:16:41who felt deeply seen

00:16:42or held

00:16:42or understood

00:16:43or accessed a part of them

00:16:45that they had buried

00:16:45a very long time away.

00:16:48And why that happened

00:16:50is through the power

00:16:51of relationship

00:16:52and the more we have

00:16:53AI and technology

00:16:55and all of these

00:16:57other distractions,

00:16:58the more each

00:16:59and every single one of us

00:17:00is craving relationship

00:17:02because we are

00:17:02biologically hardwired

00:17:04to want connection

00:17:05to someone else.

00:17:07It's quite worrying,

00:17:07isn't it,

00:17:08when we do think about

00:17:08especially the prevalence

00:17:09in young people

00:17:11using AI

00:17:12to outsource

00:17:14thoughts,

00:17:15feelings,

00:17:15they're using it

00:17:16as a confidant,

00:17:16they're using it

00:17:17in some cases

00:17:18as their only

00:17:19source of therapy.

00:17:21We are perhaps

00:17:22building a society

00:17:24where we are

00:17:25much, much lonelier,

00:17:26which is one of the

00:17:27reasons in the first place

00:17:28that everyone is saying

00:17:29they've got mental health issues,

00:17:30so it's quite ironic.

00:17:33Yeah, exactly.

00:17:33When I look at it,

00:17:34I'm like,

00:17:34oh, we're just kind of

00:17:35going around this loop

00:17:37and I really value

00:17:39the intent

00:17:41behind these people

00:17:42wanting to make therapy

00:17:43more accessible

00:17:43because therapy

00:17:45isn't accessible.

00:17:46It's a very privileged practice,

00:17:48but I don't necessarily

00:17:49put that burden

00:17:51on therapists

00:17:52to be more accessible.

00:17:53I put that more

00:17:54on our systems,

00:17:55our corporations,

00:17:56and our cultures

00:17:57to go,

00:17:58how,

00:17:59if our corporate

00:18:00statement

00:18:01is that we want

00:18:02our employees

00:18:03to be well,

00:18:04how can we integrate

00:18:05therapy into their

00:18:06well-being?

00:18:07Not an AI chatbot.

00:18:09How can we actually

00:18:10make relationships

00:18:10central to the foundation

00:18:12of our business

00:18:13because we know

00:18:14that that supports

00:18:14well-being

00:18:15and therefore

00:18:16we'll have more

00:18:17productive workers.

00:18:18Well, a lot of what

00:18:19you do, Maya,

00:18:20is actually stepping

00:18:21into corporate space,

00:18:22isn't it?

00:18:22And bringing the tools

00:18:23that you have

00:18:24into those spaces

00:18:25so that people do feel

00:18:27more confident,

00:18:28more well,

00:18:28more well-adjusted,

00:18:30which is something

00:18:31that, you know,

00:18:32wouldn't have existed

00:18:32a few years ago.

00:18:34I think one thing

00:18:35we struggle with the most

00:18:36and you mentioned it

00:18:37with the loneliness thing

00:18:38is I think because

00:18:39the society we live in

00:18:40we always want the solution

00:18:42like yesterday

00:18:43and you see it, right?

00:18:45If you want a takeout

00:18:46you can get it

00:18:47in like half an hour.

00:18:48You want something

00:18:49you just, I don't know,

00:18:50Amazon it

00:18:50and it's there

00:18:51on your doorstep tomorrow.

00:18:53I think in the same way

00:18:53when we look at

00:18:54our own relationships,

00:18:56our mental states,

00:18:58our emotions,

00:18:59we also want it solved

00:19:01tomorrow.

00:19:01We don't like sitting

00:19:02in the discomfort of it

00:19:04and so whenever I do

00:19:05go into corporates

00:19:06or even just anyone,

00:19:08I think the first thing

00:19:09is you've got to look

00:19:09at that relationship

00:19:10with yourself

00:19:11because if you're always

00:19:13just trying to fix it

00:19:14and solve it immediately,

00:19:15we actually lose the,

00:19:18I think the beauty

00:19:19and the complexity

00:19:19of what it means

00:19:20to be human

00:19:20and I think emotions

00:19:22are a really good example

00:19:23where you do sometimes

00:19:25just have to sit

00:19:25in the mud for a bit,

00:19:26honour it and be okay

00:19:28with being a little bit

00:19:29uncomfortable

00:19:29but so many people

00:19:31I speak to

00:19:32get so scared of it

00:19:33and there's one session

00:19:35I do with corporates

00:19:36that's literally

00:19:36power over emotions,

00:19:38right?

00:19:39And they all choose

00:19:41to avoid it.

00:19:42They're all like,

00:19:42oh no, no, no,

00:19:43we don't need this,

00:19:44we're fine

00:19:44and it's funny

00:19:45because no one likes

00:19:47to like address it with me.

00:19:49Once they learn

00:19:50more about it

00:19:50and they learn

00:19:51actually you can be

00:19:52playful with it

00:19:52and obviously a lot

00:19:53of the work I do

00:19:54with like creative

00:19:55visualisation,

00:19:56it uses imagery

00:19:57and characters

00:19:58and animals

00:19:59to actually see

00:19:59your emotion

00:20:00and then process it.

00:20:01We don't like

00:20:02feeling uncomfortable,

00:20:03we don't like being

00:20:04in that little bit of pain

00:20:05and I think

00:20:08that then shows

00:20:09because these things

00:20:10will keep coming up,

00:20:11the same patterns,

00:20:12triggers,

00:20:13limitations

00:20:14if we are just

00:20:15avoiding it.

00:20:16I get a lot of people

00:20:17saying like,

00:20:17oh I just want to

00:20:18stop feeling this

00:20:20like as soon as possible

00:20:21and I like ask them

00:20:22to reframe it,

00:20:23take ASAP

00:20:24and make it

00:20:25as slow as possible

00:20:26or as sustainable

00:20:27as possible,

00:20:28as steady

00:20:29as possible.

00:20:30That's going to be

00:20:30way more beneficial

00:20:31and advantageous

00:20:33for your mind,

00:20:34body and your health

00:20:35and you know

00:20:37when I looked

00:20:38at the research

00:20:39for successful entrepreneurs

00:20:41and high performers,

00:20:43emotional intelligence

00:20:44was the number one

00:20:46predictor of success

00:20:48over skill

00:20:50and talent.

00:20:51So it doesn't matter

00:20:52how clever you are

00:20:53or how many times

00:20:54you get promoted,

00:20:55if you don't know

00:20:56how to manage

00:20:57your emotions,

00:20:58how to lead yourself,

00:20:59how you're meant

00:21:00to lead others

00:21:01or how you're meant

00:21:01to go into work

00:21:03and genuinely feel

00:21:04fulfilled

00:21:04and good in yourself.

00:21:06So I think

00:21:07it's a big thing

00:21:10and I don't solve

00:21:11all of it

00:21:11but I think

00:21:12even just starting

00:21:13to change the narrative

00:21:14of it

00:21:14is important.

00:21:15So it's not just

00:21:16a tick box exercise,

00:21:19it's something

00:21:19that they invest in

00:21:20just like they would

00:21:21public speaking

00:21:22or communication

00:21:23or coding skills,

00:21:25mental fitness,

00:21:26emotional intelligence,

00:21:26it's just another skill

00:21:28that is going to give them

00:21:29the edge

00:21:30and the advantage

00:21:30in life.

00:21:32I think it's really interesting

00:21:33that you mention

00:21:34emotional intelligence

00:21:35because this has become

00:21:36a real buzzword

00:21:37especially in the world

00:21:38of dating.

00:21:39So you hear a lot

00:21:41of people saying

00:21:42if you're not in therapy

00:21:43I won't date you,

00:21:44if you're not doing

00:21:45the work

00:21:45then forget it.

00:21:46And I come from

00:21:47a background of

00:21:48intimacy coaching

00:21:49and writing about dating

00:21:50so for me

00:21:51I would see that a lot

00:21:52and I would see people

00:21:53saying I won't date

00:21:55anyone who's not in therapy,

00:21:56forget it.

00:21:57And so therapy

00:21:58has almost become

00:21:58this incredibly important

00:22:01aspect to people's

00:22:03personalities.

00:22:04Having emotional

00:22:04intelligence,

00:22:05cultivating emotional

00:22:06intelligence has become

00:22:07something that's central

00:22:08to the dating experience

00:22:09but I think that's also

00:22:11a double-edged sword

00:22:12because it also

00:22:14implies that

00:22:15anyone who's not

00:22:17in therapy

00:22:18is maybe not good enough

00:22:19and although

00:22:21I think we think

00:22:23of therapy

00:22:23as something to aspire to

00:22:25and something that is great

00:22:26I think you touched

00:22:27on this earlier Aileen,

00:22:28not everyone

00:22:29can access it.

00:22:31It is something

00:22:31that can be

00:22:32expensive,

00:22:33it's something

00:22:33that certainly

00:22:34in this country

00:22:34we struggle with

00:22:35with nationalised

00:22:38mental health services

00:22:39and waiting lists

00:22:40and I think

00:22:41possibly the idea

00:22:42that I won't date you

00:22:44if you're not

00:22:44in therapy

00:22:45can be a little bit

00:22:47almost a little bit

00:22:49insidious

00:22:49because we want

00:22:50to think of ourselves

00:22:51as developing,

00:22:53growing,

00:22:53becoming better people,

00:22:54becoming more attuned,

00:22:56more resilient,

00:22:57better emotional intelligence

00:22:58but we're also insinuating

00:23:00that anyone that's

00:23:00not doing that work

00:23:01is not really

00:23:02on the same footing

00:23:03as us

00:23:03or not really

00:23:04as good as us

00:23:05but I wonder with that

00:23:07does everyone

00:23:08even need it?

00:23:09If we think

00:23:10well if you're not doing it

00:23:11I'm better than you

00:23:12or you know

00:23:12I'm doing the work

00:23:13and you're not

00:23:14maybe that person

00:23:15doesn't even need therapy

00:23:16maybe they're fine

00:23:17just as they are

00:23:18do you think

00:23:19that it works

00:23:20for everyone

00:23:21and everyone

00:23:21actually needs it?

00:23:23This may be

00:23:24controversial

00:23:24or not the expected

00:23:26opinion of someone

00:23:27who is a therapist

00:23:29and has benefited

00:23:30from therapy

00:23:30quite deeply

00:23:31but I don't know

00:23:34if everyone

00:23:35needs therapy

00:23:36I think there are

00:23:37so many different ways

00:23:39to gain

00:23:41somatic literacy

00:23:42so the actual

00:23:43an awareness

00:23:44of the sensations

00:23:45in my body

00:23:45and what they mean

00:23:46for me

00:23:47to gain

00:23:48emotional access

00:23:49so I can actually

00:23:50access my emotions

00:23:51and I can choose

00:23:52to put it over here

00:23:53when I need to

00:23:53and I can choose

00:23:54to process it

00:23:54when I need to

00:23:55there are so many

00:23:57different practices

00:23:57and I think to say

00:23:59that someone needs

00:24:00to be in therapy

00:24:01to be worthy

00:24:02of me being in connection

00:24:04really actually gets

00:24:05into some quite

00:24:06oppressive ideologies

00:24:08we have to look

00:24:09at the therapy

00:24:10of practice

00:24:11and where it comes from

00:24:11which is traditionally

00:24:13white heterosexual men

00:24:15and then we have

00:24:16to look at the

00:24:17language of trauma

00:24:17and who they were

00:24:18writing for

00:24:19which was white

00:24:20heterosexual

00:24:21traumatized women

00:24:22and so the language

00:24:23of therapy

00:24:24is quite femme centered

00:24:25I work predominantly

00:24:27with men

00:24:27no one would ever

00:24:29guess that from my media

00:24:30how I present online

00:24:31or my media

00:24:32but it's because

00:24:33I use language

00:24:34really intentionally

00:24:35to actually give

00:24:36access to men

00:24:37and so when we

00:24:39think of therapy

00:24:40and say

00:24:41everyone should be there

00:24:42we're really

00:24:43minimizing

00:24:45all of the barriers

00:24:46that are around

00:24:46this practice

00:24:47and not acknowledging

00:24:48there are so many

00:24:49other ways

00:24:51to have a relationship

00:24:52that is safe

00:24:53and supportive

00:24:54and challenging

00:24:55and compassionate

00:24:56and caring

00:24:57and provides you

00:24:58with the container

00:24:59needed

00:25:00to really ask

00:25:01deeper questions

00:25:02of yourself

00:25:02around how you

00:25:03want to live

00:25:03and who you really

00:25:04are

00:25:05do you have any thoughts

00:25:06yeah it's a

00:25:07it's an interesting

00:25:08question

00:25:08do I think

00:25:09everyone needs

00:25:10to have therapy

00:25:12um

00:25:12no

00:25:14but

00:25:15I do really

00:25:16agree with you

00:25:17that there is

00:25:17this pressure

00:25:18to keep improving

00:25:20all the time

00:25:21and in some ways

00:25:23it like

00:25:24does it take us

00:25:25away from just

00:25:26being a human being

00:25:27where we just be

00:25:28just be present

00:25:29be content

00:25:30because actually

00:25:30sometimes you can

00:25:31go the other way

00:25:32right you always

00:25:32are just then like

00:25:33onto the next thing

00:25:34the next thing

00:25:35and there are

00:25:37extremities

00:25:37in the wellness space

00:25:39that I think

00:25:39can actually do

00:25:40more harm

00:25:41than good

00:25:42and that's why

00:25:43I think it does

00:25:43come back to

00:25:44that thing

00:25:45of self-awareness

00:25:46and one thing

00:25:47I would say

00:25:47and I don't know

00:25:49if you find this

00:25:49because as much

00:25:50as there's so many

00:25:52therapies out there

00:25:52and so many options

00:25:53I think that in itself

00:25:55is the overwhelming part

00:25:56because no one

00:25:57knows where to start

00:25:58everyone's like

00:25:58well should I do this

00:26:00or my friend's doing this

00:26:01maybe I need to

00:26:02you know

00:26:02go and see a doctor

00:26:03and I think

00:26:04because we are

00:26:05drowning in all these

00:26:06options

00:26:07and all this information

00:26:08and you know

00:26:09you see one video

00:26:09on social media

00:26:10and you're like

00:26:10oh my gosh

00:26:11this is me

00:26:12I'm going to label myself

00:26:13and I've got this

00:26:14disorder

00:26:14whatever it might be

00:26:15again we're just

00:26:16becoming more and more

00:26:17separate from actually

00:26:19listening to our own minds

00:26:21and our own bodies

00:26:22and that's why

00:26:24I think the first form

00:26:26of therapy

00:26:26anyone should ever do

00:26:28is sit on your own

00:26:30in a room

00:26:30for 10 minutes

00:26:31with your mind

00:26:32with your body

00:26:33and just listen

00:26:34we are scared

00:26:35we are scared

00:26:35of our own

00:26:36thoughts

00:26:37and our own feelings

00:26:39like that's sad

00:26:41and actually

00:26:41that's probably

00:26:42the first place

00:26:44to start

00:26:44just try and connect

00:26:46with yourself

00:26:47and yes you may need

00:26:48help

00:26:49let's say if you feel

00:26:49like you can't do that

00:26:50great maybe it's like

00:26:51let me reach out to someone

00:26:52or see if actually

00:26:54I can read something

00:26:55about it

00:26:55there is a lot there

00:26:57but I'd say first

00:26:58go a little bit inward

00:26:59if you can

00:27:00and spend a bit of time

00:27:01with yourself

00:27:01and if you find

00:27:02that overwhelming

00:27:03go on a solo date

00:27:04I go on one every month

00:27:06just spend time

00:27:06on your own

00:27:07whether you're going

00:27:08for dinner

00:27:08not on your phone

00:27:09by the way

00:27:10a lot of people say to me

00:27:11oh yeah I spent time

00:27:12on my own

00:27:13and they're just sitting

00:27:14in front of their TV

00:27:14on their phone

00:27:15I'm like that's not it

00:27:16that's just not it

00:27:17so really learn

00:27:19to spend time

00:27:20and quality time

00:27:21dating yourself

00:27:22so that you can learn

00:27:23more about

00:27:23perhaps what you might need

00:27:25I think that's

00:27:26really good advice

00:27:27and certainly something

00:27:27that I try to do

00:27:29I do try to find

00:27:30still moments

00:27:31where I can

00:27:32think about

00:27:33how I'm feeling

00:27:34what thoughts

00:27:35are going through my mind

00:27:36I think for a lot of people

00:27:37it's tricky

00:27:38to put the phone down

00:27:39isn't it

00:27:39but it's certainly

00:27:40something that we

00:27:41could all benefit

00:27:41from doing

00:27:42and you also mentioned

00:27:45Maya

00:27:45the idea that

00:27:46well-being can become

00:27:48a little bit competitive

00:27:49and we can think

00:27:50we must be optimising

00:27:52all the time

00:27:52we must be developing

00:27:53ourselves

00:27:54and I see this

00:27:55as a quite

00:27:57pervasive problem

00:27:57in well-being

00:27:58but I also see

00:28:01social media

00:28:02kind of feeding into that

00:28:03and the way that we are

00:28:04constantly online

00:28:05looking at what other people

00:28:06are doing

00:28:06thinking about therapy

00:28:08through the lens

00:28:08of TikTok

00:28:09or Instagram

00:28:10and we also see

00:28:12the lingo

00:28:13of therapy

00:28:14and self-development

00:28:16the buzzwords

00:28:17popping up a lot

00:28:18to the extent

00:28:19that perhaps

00:28:20they've lost

00:28:21a little bit of meaning

00:28:22we've seen

00:28:24certainly in celebrity media

00:28:25a lot of cases

00:28:26of people

00:28:27almost weaponising

00:28:28the language of therapy

00:28:29and talking about

00:28:30boundaries

00:28:31talking about

00:28:32holding space

00:28:33talking about things

00:28:34in ways that actually

00:28:35seem quite out of context

00:28:36and I think

00:28:38now we're finding

00:28:39it maybe quite hard

00:28:40to separate therapy speak

00:28:42and performative

00:28:44therapy

00:28:45and the idea

00:28:46that we're turning up

00:28:47on an Instagram live

00:28:48and talking about

00:28:49how healed we are

00:28:50from the actual

00:28:51process of therapy

00:28:53and of healing

00:28:53I don't know whether

00:28:55Ailey you have any

00:28:56thoughts on sort of

00:28:57performative therapy

00:28:59and therapy speak

00:29:00versus the real thing

00:29:02no one

00:29:02I don't believe

00:29:03anyone is

00:29:04doing it

00:29:05well

00:29:06with a poor intention

00:29:07everyone is very

00:29:08well intended

00:29:09but one of the things

00:29:11that you get

00:29:11through going

00:29:12through a graduate

00:29:13program

00:29:14and sitting with

00:29:15clients

00:29:16and having to do

00:29:17the registration

00:29:17body

00:29:18one of the

00:29:19solid foundations

00:29:20that any clinician

00:29:21at least in North America

00:29:22I wasn't fully trained

00:29:24here so I don't know

00:29:25but I do believe

00:29:25it holds true

00:29:26is you're really

00:29:28trained

00:29:28to examine

00:29:30your language

00:29:31because you say

00:29:33one wrong word

00:29:34with a client

00:29:35and you don't know

00:29:36what you've pressed

00:29:37or how you've hurt them

00:29:38and so there's this

00:29:39intentional language

00:29:41always used

00:29:42and

00:29:43when

00:29:44you know

00:29:45pop psychology

00:29:46started to take

00:29:47therapeutic language

00:29:48and kind of

00:29:49commodify it

00:29:50and make it

00:29:50more commercial

00:29:51we lost

00:29:53one of the main

00:29:54things that makes

00:29:55therapy so effective

00:29:56which is sitting

00:29:58across from someone

00:29:59who knows

00:30:01language

00:30:01and how to

00:30:02structure language

00:30:03in such a way

00:30:04to create space

00:30:05and openness

00:30:06and just touch

00:30:07your button

00:30:08just enough

00:30:09that you feel

00:30:10challenged

00:30:11but not so

00:30:11challenged

00:30:12that you're

00:30:12defensive

00:30:13and so

00:30:14I bring this

00:30:15in because

00:30:16I have it

00:30:16all of the times

00:30:18with my clients

00:30:18they're like

00:30:19well I was on

00:30:20this date

00:30:21or I was sitting

00:30:21with this person

00:30:22and they were

00:30:23totally gaslighting

00:30:24me

00:30:24and I'm like

00:30:25okay

00:30:25what does

00:30:27gaslighting

00:30:28feel like

00:30:28in your body

00:30:29silence

00:30:30they don't know

00:30:32they read me

00:30:33the definition

00:30:33well they did

00:30:34this and then

00:30:34this

00:30:35and that's

00:30:35gaslighting

00:30:35I'm like

00:30:36no no no

00:30:37no

00:30:37the words

00:30:39is great

00:30:39fluency

00:30:41is important

00:30:42but it's actually

00:30:43depth of awareness

00:30:44that's more

00:30:45important here

00:30:45and so

00:30:46it's actually

00:30:47learning

00:30:47okay what does

00:30:48manipulation

00:30:49or gaslighting

00:30:51or holding

00:30:52a boundary

00:30:53feel like

00:30:54inside myself

00:30:55that is more

00:30:57important

00:30:57than having

00:30:58the story

00:30:59of language

00:31:00because it can

00:31:01be weaponized

00:31:02and it has

00:31:02been weaponized

00:31:03and I hear

00:31:04that in my

00:31:05clients

00:31:05and it's

00:31:06something I'm

00:31:06constantly trying

00:31:07to unpick

00:31:07boundaries

00:31:08is a huge

00:31:09one

00:31:09and everyone's

00:31:09like well

00:31:09this is my

00:31:10boundary

00:31:10and I go

00:31:11okay

00:31:11but boundary

00:31:12is actually

00:31:13how do I

00:31:13stay in

00:31:14honest relationship

00:31:14with myself

00:31:15while still

00:31:16being in

00:31:16honest relationship

00:31:17with you

00:31:17a barrier

00:31:19to connection

00:31:20is saying

00:31:21hard no

00:31:21and this is

00:31:22where I end

00:31:22and you begin

00:31:23that's totally

00:31:24fine

00:31:24but a boundary

00:31:26still has a

00:31:26relational component

00:31:27to it

00:31:28and so

00:31:29I actually

00:31:29now spend

00:31:30a lot of

00:31:30time

00:31:31with my

00:31:31clients

00:31:32really unpicking

00:31:33language in a way

00:31:34that I didn't

00:31:35seven years ago

00:31:36and it's like

00:31:37I have to kind

00:31:38of go back

00:31:38and be like

00:31:39okay

00:31:39when you say

00:31:41you were

00:31:41manipulated

00:31:42what do you

00:31:43mean

00:31:44or when you

00:31:44say they're

00:31:45narcissistic

00:31:46okay

00:31:46now we have

00:31:47to have

00:31:47a conversation

00:31:48around

00:31:49diagnoses

00:31:50and spectrums

00:31:51and parts

00:31:52of self

00:31:52yeah I do

00:31:53certainly think

00:31:54it's in some

00:31:55ways it's so

00:31:56useful that we

00:31:57all now have

00:31:57the language

00:31:58to call

00:31:58a spade

00:31:59a spade

00:31:59because I

00:32:00remember a few

00:32:01years ago

00:32:01I didn't

00:32:02necessarily have

00:32:03the toolkit

00:32:04to be able

00:32:04to express

00:32:05myself as well

00:32:05as I can

00:32:06now when it

00:32:06comes to

00:32:07issues on

00:32:07mental health

00:32:08but if I

00:32:09have to read

00:32:10the words

00:32:11gaslighting

00:32:12one more

00:32:13time

00:32:14in relation

00:32:15to something

00:32:15that is

00:32:16actually

00:32:16not necessarily

00:32:18an example

00:32:19of that

00:32:19you know

00:32:21you start

00:32:21to think

00:32:21maybe words

00:32:22have lost

00:32:22their meaning

00:32:23a little bit

00:32:23and therefore

00:32:24they're not

00:32:24helpful for us

00:32:25I don't know

00:32:26whether you

00:32:26have any

00:32:26thoughts on

00:32:27that Maya

00:32:27let's use

00:32:28the example

00:32:28of you know

00:32:28like nerves

00:32:29and excitement

00:32:30right

00:32:30I know a lot

00:32:31of people say

00:32:31it's basically

00:32:32the same energy

00:32:32it's just how

00:32:33you use it

00:32:33it's kind

00:32:34of true

00:32:34because ultimately

00:32:36it's either

00:32:36excess energy

00:32:37or quite like

00:32:38you know

00:32:38there's heat

00:32:39in your body

00:32:39but if you

00:32:40see it as nerves

00:32:41it's going to

00:32:42completely change

00:32:42your performance

00:32:43and change

00:32:43how you

00:32:44maybe suppress

00:32:45it or

00:32:45deal with it

00:32:46if you see

00:32:47it as excitement

00:32:47you might use

00:32:48it in a different

00:32:48way

00:32:49and I love

00:32:50that so

00:32:51Sadhguru

00:32:51he you know

00:32:52the spiritual

00:32:52leader he says

00:32:53that why don't

00:32:54we just not

00:32:55label the emotion

00:32:56as good or bad

00:32:57because often

00:32:58people be like

00:32:58oh I'm feeling

00:32:59a really like

00:32:59bad emotion

00:33:00but like on

00:33:01who on

00:33:02whose accord

00:33:02why is shame

00:33:03a bad emotion

00:33:04it's just

00:33:05an emotion

00:33:06and I think

00:33:07when you take

00:33:07off this

00:33:08judgment

00:33:08and again

00:33:10sometimes our

00:33:11language is a

00:33:12little bit of

00:33:12a limitation

00:33:13because it

00:33:14puts you in

00:33:14that box

00:33:15or that

00:33:15particular

00:33:16narrative

00:33:16quite quickly

00:33:17and you just

00:33:18see it as

00:33:18okay it's

00:33:19an emotion

00:33:19I am

00:33:20experiencing

00:33:20or I'm

00:33:21feeling

00:33:21cool

00:33:22you give

00:33:23yourself a

00:33:23bit more

00:33:23space

00:33:24or curiosity

00:33:25to think

00:33:26well what

00:33:26can I do

00:33:27with this

00:33:27if it's

00:33:28just energy

00:33:28in my body

00:33:29and so

00:33:29that's where

00:33:30I see

00:33:30language

00:33:31maybe playing

00:33:31a really

00:33:32important role

00:33:33I think

00:33:33the whole

00:33:34idea that

00:33:34you've

00:33:35touched on

00:33:35there

00:33:35of reframing

00:33:36is basically

00:33:37the crux

00:33:38isn't it

00:33:38of what

00:33:38we talk

00:33:39about when

00:33:39we talk

00:33:39about how

00:33:40to think

00:33:40about your

00:33:41own thoughts

00:33:41how to think

00:33:42about mental

00:33:43health

00:33:43and often

00:33:45when I speak

00:33:46to people

00:33:46about therapy

00:33:47it all boils

00:33:48down to the

00:33:49fact that

00:33:49they're doing

00:33:50it because

00:33:51they want

00:33:51to think

00:33:51differently

00:33:52they've got

00:33:53they've got

00:33:53a lot of

00:33:53thoughts

00:33:54but they

00:33:54want to

00:33:55shift

00:33:55them

00:33:55they want

00:33:56to reframe

00:33:56them

00:33:56they want

00:33:56to turn

00:33:57them into

00:33:57something

00:33:57that's

00:33:58positive

00:33:58rather than

00:33:59negative

00:33:59quite similarly

00:34:00in the way

00:34:01that you

00:34:01talk about

00:34:02language

00:34:02and I

00:34:04think

00:34:05for many

00:34:06people

00:34:06it's so

00:34:07possible

00:34:08but also

00:34:09I think

00:34:10you touched

00:34:10on this

00:34:11earlier

00:34:11it's quite

00:34:12difficult

00:34:13to know

00:34:13how to

00:34:14find someone

00:34:14who will

00:34:15help you

00:34:15do that

00:34:16if someone

00:34:17is a

00:34:17complete

00:34:17beginner

00:34:18how on

00:34:18earth are

00:34:19they going

00:34:19to understand

00:34:20where to

00:34:20start

00:34:21how are

00:34:22they going

00:34:22to know

00:34:22who to

00:34:22speak to

00:34:23when it

00:34:24comes to

00:34:24changing

00:34:25their mind

00:34:25when it

00:34:26comes to

00:34:26thinking

00:34:26positively

00:34:27rather than

00:34:27negatively

00:34:28do you

00:34:29have any

00:34:30advice at

00:34:30all for

00:34:30someone who

00:34:31thinks

00:34:31okay I

00:34:32need to

00:34:32shift the

00:34:33way I

00:34:33think

00:34:33but I

00:34:33don't

00:34:34know

00:34:34where to

00:34:34start

00:34:34for the

00:34:35person

00:34:36who wants

00:34:36to shift

00:34:37how they're

00:34:37thinking

00:34:38but they

00:34:39don't know

00:34:39where to

00:34:39start

00:34:40I would

00:34:41initially

00:34:42really guide

00:34:43them into

00:34:43some

00:34:44curiosity

00:34:45around how

00:34:45those thoughts

00:34:46are impacting

00:34:47their life

00:34:47right

00:34:48so is it

00:34:50just a

00:34:50thought that's

00:34:51going on

00:34:51in my

00:34:51head

00:34:52and I'm

00:34:52ruminating

00:34:53and therefore

00:34:53I'm not

00:34:53engaging in

00:34:54my life

00:34:55or I'm

00:34:55constantly

00:34:56using my

00:34:56device

00:34:57but starting

00:34:58to look

00:34:58into where

00:34:59has that

00:35:00cognitive

00:35:00rumination

00:35:01the thought

00:35:02manifested

00:35:04into action

00:35:05that is

00:35:06causing a

00:35:07sore spot

00:35:07in my

00:35:08own reality

00:35:08and then I

00:35:09think once

00:35:10you have

00:35:10that identified

00:35:11you actually

00:35:12have a lot

00:35:13more information

00:35:13on the

00:35:15practice

00:35:16the technique

00:35:17let that

00:35:18be

00:35:18therapy

00:35:18let that

00:35:19be

00:35:19something

00:35:19else

00:35:20that is

00:35:20going to

00:35:20support

00:35:21you

00:35:21in that

00:35:21way

00:35:22and

00:35:23once

00:35:24you

00:35:24have

00:35:24that

00:35:25peace

00:35:25then it's

00:35:26a little

00:35:27bit of

00:35:27like a

00:35:28journey

00:35:28backwards

00:35:29and a

00:35:29journey

00:35:29inwards

00:35:30because we

00:35:31know our

00:35:31thoughts are

00:35:32repetitive

00:35:33they come

00:35:34from our

00:35:35history

00:35:35from our

00:35:36intergenerational

00:35:37history

00:35:37we have

00:35:38narratives

00:35:38in our

00:35:39mind

00:35:39that don't

00:35:39even belong

00:35:40to us

00:35:40they belong

00:35:41to culture

00:35:41or our

00:35:42grandmother

00:35:42or this

00:35:43that thing

00:35:43and that's

00:35:44way out

00:35:44there

00:35:44and then

00:35:45that's

00:35:46where

00:35:46some of

00:35:46the curiosity

00:35:47goes even

00:35:48deeper

00:35:48of how

00:35:49can I

00:35:50start to

00:35:51explore

00:35:52that piece

00:35:53and is it

00:35:53simply reframing

00:35:55that I need

00:35:55or is there

00:35:56another piece

00:35:57that's missing

00:35:57and that's

00:35:58why I bring

00:35:59in that piece

00:35:59of like

00:36:00where is it

00:36:00causing the

00:36:01sore spot

00:36:01in your life

00:36:02because that

00:36:03could be

00:36:04quite solved

00:36:04if I use

00:36:06that word

00:36:06by moving

00:36:07your body

00:36:08by sitting

00:36:09and breathing

00:36:10by picking up

00:36:11a pen and

00:36:12paper

00:36:12and drawing

00:36:13something

00:36:14because sometimes

00:36:15there are

00:36:15aspects of

00:36:16our human

00:36:16experience

00:36:17that cannot

00:36:17be reframed

00:36:19they just

00:36:19need to be

00:36:20expressed

00:36:20or they need

00:36:21to be

00:36:21witnessed

00:36:22and not

00:36:22necessarily

00:36:23by someone

00:36:23else

00:36:23either

00:36:24and so

00:36:24that's

00:36:25where I

00:36:25always get

00:36:26curious

00:36:26because I

00:36:26hear people

00:36:27say this

00:36:27like I want

00:36:28to come to

00:36:28therapy

00:36:28to change

00:36:29my thoughts

00:36:29or like

00:36:29I'm here

00:36:30because I

00:36:30have this

00:36:31thought

00:36:31and I'm

00:36:31like okay

00:36:32but how is

00:36:33that playing

00:36:33out in real

00:36:34time

00:36:34because that

00:36:35will give

00:36:36us the most

00:36:36information

00:36:36of how I

00:36:37can actually

00:36:37support you

00:36:38or what

00:36:39will be

00:36:39most supportive

00:36:39for you

00:36:40that's

00:36:41really good

00:36:41advice

00:36:42I do

00:36:42think as

00:36:43well

00:36:43you're

00:36:43right

00:36:44that we

00:36:44sometimes

00:36:45forget

00:36:45tiny habits

00:36:47can make

00:36:47a big

00:36:48impact

00:36:48and I

00:36:50suppose you

00:36:50talk a lot

00:36:51about this

00:36:51in your

00:36:51work Maya

00:36:52because the

00:36:53idea that

00:36:54you are

00:36:54taking small

00:36:55steps to

00:36:56change the

00:36:57way you

00:36:58show up

00:36:58in life

00:36:58is a big

00:37:00part of the

00:37:00way that you

00:37:01coach and the

00:37:01way that you

00:37:01work with the

00:37:02sorts of

00:37:02people that you

00:37:03do

00:37:03yeah as in

00:37:05if you want

00:37:06to change

00:37:06anything in

00:37:07your life

00:37:07whether that's

00:37:08your thinking

00:37:08your performance

00:37:10your behaviour

00:37:11start so

00:37:13small

00:37:13so small

00:37:15that it's

00:37:15so hard

00:37:16not to do

00:37:17it

00:37:17and that

00:37:19could literally

00:37:20mean so

00:37:20one of the

00:37:21smallest habits

00:37:21I do

00:37:22there's actually

00:37:23been game

00:37:23changing for

00:37:24me

00:37:24every morning

00:37:25I wake up

00:37:26the first

00:37:27thing I do

00:37:27is I dance

00:37:29that's it

00:37:30I just dance

00:37:30to one song

00:37:31and I know

00:37:32it might sound

00:37:33a bit lame

00:37:33to people

00:37:34or you know

00:37:34whatever

00:37:35but actually

00:37:35the way it

00:37:37just primes

00:37:37my energy

00:37:38my mind

00:37:39I move

00:37:39my body

00:37:40it's great

00:37:41and when I

00:37:42first started

00:37:43fine I maybe

00:37:44did it like

00:37:44just for one

00:37:45minute and then

00:37:46you build it

00:37:46up but

00:37:47really when

00:37:48you go

00:37:49super small

00:37:49and you build

00:37:50and build

00:37:51it compounds

00:37:52exponentially

00:37:53like exponentially

00:37:56and it's amazing

00:37:57and there's a

00:37:58really great

00:37:58analogy that

00:37:59if a plane

00:38:00were to move

00:38:01one degree

00:38:02different every

00:38:03hour it would

00:38:04be in a

00:38:05completely different

00:38:05destination

00:38:06and in the same

00:38:07way that's like

00:38:08for us

00:38:08think of your

00:38:09life in degrees

00:38:09like tiny

00:38:10tiny little

00:38:11things

00:38:12so rather than

00:38:13being like

00:38:13okay right

00:38:13tomorrow

00:38:14I need to

00:38:15have like

00:38:15the perfect

00:38:16boundaries

00:38:16I need to

00:38:17never react

00:38:18to my kids

00:38:19or my partner

00:38:20that's just not

00:38:21it's not going

00:38:21to be very

00:38:22sustainable

00:38:22so think

00:38:23okay

00:38:23how can I

00:38:24just in this

00:38:25at dinner

00:38:26be more present

00:38:27with my kids

00:38:27how can I

00:38:28at dinner

00:38:29just put my

00:38:29phone away

00:38:30or how can I

00:38:31when I wake

00:38:31up in the

00:38:32morning

00:38:32just say

00:38:33one useful

00:38:34thought to

00:38:34myself

00:38:35and that's it

00:38:35I'll do it

00:38:36for 30 days

00:38:36go really

00:38:37really small

00:38:38so the

00:38:38compounding

00:38:39effect is

00:38:39really important

00:38:40because one

00:38:41of the

00:38:41quickest ways

00:38:42to lose

00:38:42your self

00:38:43esteem

00:38:44your self

00:38:44confidence

00:38:45your self

00:38:45worth

00:38:46is that you

00:38:47don't keep

00:38:47those promises

00:38:48to yourself

00:38:50and most of

00:38:51us are doing

00:38:52that

00:38:52whether it's

00:38:53oh I need

00:38:53to ring my

00:38:54friend

00:38:54or okay

00:38:55I'll go to

00:38:55the gym

00:38:56today

00:38:56or let me

00:38:56eat a bit

00:38:57more healthy

00:38:57when we

00:38:58don't keep

00:38:58those promises

00:38:59and they

00:39:00keep racking

00:39:00up

00:39:01we just

00:39:01slowly lose

00:39:02that trust

00:39:03in ourself

00:39:03and that's

00:39:04a problem

00:39:04my motto is

00:39:05just do one

00:39:06thing for your

00:39:06body

00:39:06one thing for

00:39:07your mind

00:39:07one thing for

00:39:07your soul

00:39:08that's it

00:39:08no matter

00:39:08how small

00:39:09it is

00:39:10and just

00:39:10watch

00:39:11watch how

00:39:11the direction

00:39:12of your life

00:39:14can change

00:39:15but also just

00:39:16how you feel

00:39:16about yourself

00:39:18and one thing

00:39:19I just wanted to

00:39:19add with the

00:39:20point you said

00:39:20before

00:39:20a lot of

00:39:21people will

00:39:22come to me

00:39:22saying my

00:39:23I really

00:39:23want

00:39:23I want to

00:39:24be more

00:39:25positive

00:39:25I just want

00:39:26a positive

00:39:26mind

00:39:26I want

00:39:27positive

00:39:27thoughts

00:39:27and that's

00:39:29fine

00:39:29but it's

00:39:30actually

00:39:30like it's

00:39:31pretty impossible

00:39:32to have

00:39:32only positive

00:39:33thoughts

00:39:34as a human

00:39:34I think

00:39:35even reframing

00:39:36that to be

00:39:37how can I

00:39:37build a more

00:39:38positive relationship

00:39:39with my mind

00:39:40it's so subtle

00:39:41but so important

00:39:42because we often

00:39:44force ourselves

00:39:44to never have

00:39:45a negative

00:39:45thought

00:39:46or like we're

00:39:47not allowed

00:39:48to feel

00:39:48sad

00:39:49or angry

00:39:50but that's

00:39:51actually

00:39:51I think it's

00:39:52the joy

00:39:53of being human

00:39:54we get to

00:39:55feel this

00:39:56whole

00:39:57experience

00:39:58the great

00:39:59things

00:39:59the harder

00:40:00things

00:40:01and so

00:40:02again

00:40:02it's not

00:40:03about pushing

00:40:03the mind

00:40:04to only be

00:40:04positive

00:40:05it's about

00:40:06how can I

00:40:06have a more

00:40:06positive

00:40:07relationship

00:40:07with my

00:40:08mind

00:40:08and my

00:40:09body

00:40:09that's

00:40:10really

00:40:11where the

00:40:11power

00:40:11lies

00:40:12it's a

00:40:13really

00:40:13important

00:40:14distinction

00:40:14isn't it

00:40:15on that

00:40:15I always

00:40:16say to

00:40:16my clients

00:40:16when they

00:40:17do

00:40:17come in

00:40:17because I

00:40:18love this

00:40:19and I

00:40:19heard it

00:40:19from a

00:40:20supervisor

00:40:20of mine

00:40:21she was

00:40:21like never

00:40:21encourage

00:40:22anyone to

00:40:22put whipped

00:40:23cream on

00:40:23garbage

00:40:23never

00:40:24encourage

00:40:25a positive

00:40:26affirmation

00:40:27or a

00:40:27positive

00:40:27reframe

00:40:28until you

00:40:29know what's

00:40:29underneath

00:40:29that

00:40:30and I

00:40:30think

00:40:30that's

00:40:30just

00:40:31such a

00:40:31it's a

00:40:31beautiful

00:40:32because it's

00:40:32such a

00:40:33clear

00:40:33visual

00:40:34example

00:40:34and a

00:40:35question

00:40:35mark

00:40:35of am I

00:40:36doing that

00:40:36in my

00:40:37life

00:40:37and maybe

00:40:39I do

00:40:39need to

00:40:39look at

00:40:40some of

00:40:40this

00:40:40garbage

00:40:41and find

00:40:41some of

00:40:42the good

00:40:42stuff

00:40:42in here

00:40:43so that

00:40:43I can

00:40:44actually

00:40:44pair it

00:40:45with this

00:40:45whipped

00:40:45cream

00:40:45and it

00:40:46it's

00:40:46great

00:40:46but we're

00:40:47no longer

00:40:47digging

00:40:47you know

00:40:48putting it

00:40:48on top

00:40:48of the

00:40:49garbage

00:40:49bin

00:40:49absolutely

00:40:50I do

00:40:51think

00:40:51the idea

00:40:52that we

00:40:52need to

00:40:52be good

00:40:52vibes

00:40:53only

00:40:53all the

00:40:53time

00:40:54it's

00:40:54unsustainable

00:40:55isn't it

00:40:55and you

00:40:56know

00:40:56also it

00:40:57might mean

00:40:57that we

00:40:57then get

00:40:58into a

00:40:58stage

00:40:58where we're

00:40:59bypassing

00:40:59a little

00:41:00bit

00:41:00we're

00:41:00ignoring

00:41:01the bad

00:41:01stuff

00:41:01and we're

00:41:02just

00:41:02pretending

00:41:02everything's

00:41:03fine

00:41:03but ultimately

00:41:04that is

00:41:05not going

00:41:05to help

00:41:05us move

00:41:06to the

00:41:06way we

00:41:06want to

00:41:07be

00:41:07and the

00:41:09reason

00:41:09we're

00:41:09having

00:41:09this

00:41:09conversation

00:41:10is because

00:41:10lots of

00:41:11people are

00:41:12struggling

00:41:12with negative

00:41:13thoughts

00:41:13the statistic

00:41:15from mine

00:41:15shows that

00:41:16one in

00:41:16four people

00:41:17every year

00:41:18are going

00:41:18to experience

00:41:19mental health

00:41:20issues

00:41:20of some

00:41:23health issues

00:41:23that mean

00:41:24you're anxious

00:41:25or whether

00:41:26they're actually

00:41:27stopping you

00:41:27from showing

00:41:28up for work

00:41:29being with

00:41:29friends and

00:41:30family

00:41:30or putting

00:41:31you in a

00:41:31situation

00:41:32where you

00:41:32might be a

00:41:33danger to

00:41:33yourself

00:41:33that's some

00:41:34serious stuff

00:41:35so talking

00:41:37about therapy

00:41:37talking about

00:41:38ways in

00:41:40and the

00:41:41way that you

00:41:41both work

00:41:42and ways that

00:41:43people can

00:41:43access these

00:41:44sorts of

00:41:45modalities

00:41:45and thought

00:41:46process

00:41:47this is really

00:41:48really important

00:41:48I also think

00:41:50that the more

00:41:52we lean into

00:41:52it the better

00:41:53for us

00:41:53but there is

00:41:54a stigma

00:41:54still

00:41:55and we do

00:41:55notice that

00:41:56in some

00:41:57cases people

00:41:58are throwing

00:41:59around words

00:41:59like snowflake

00:42:00or oversensitive

00:42:01and maybe

00:42:04accusing

00:42:04especially younger

00:42:05generations of

00:42:06being over

00:42:06therapised

00:42:07we're using

00:42:08this therapy

00:42:08speak

00:42:09we're constantly

00:42:10defining ourselves

00:42:11by doing the

00:42:12work

00:42:12people get

00:42:13criticised for

00:42:14being too

00:42:14into it

00:42:15I think

00:42:15personally that

00:42:16that is unfair

00:42:17but I wonder

00:42:18if you have

00:42:19any thoughts

00:42:19on that

00:42:20because there's

00:42:20almost a sort

00:42:21of backlash

00:42:22to people

00:42:22who want

00:42:23to do

00:42:23better

00:42:23for themselves

00:42:24in that

00:42:24way

00:42:24isn't

00:42:25there

00:42:25I don't

00:42:26in any

00:42:27way

00:42:27think that

00:42:28younger

00:42:29generations

00:42:29are over

00:42:30therapist

00:42:31I think

00:42:32that they

00:42:32are growing

00:42:33up

00:42:33and I

00:42:34witness this

00:42:34being a

00:42:35therapist

00:42:35during the

00:42:36time of

00:42:36COVID

00:42:37watch them

00:42:38developmentally

00:42:39miss

00:42:40milestones

00:42:41and because

00:42:42they have

00:42:43missed those

00:42:43developmental

00:42:44milestones

00:42:44there's a

00:42:45consequence

00:42:46for that

00:42:46there's been

00:42:47a consequence

00:42:47on all

00:42:48of us

00:42:48and I

00:42:49think it's

00:42:49actually quite

00:42:50amazing that

00:42:51they are a

00:42:51generation

00:42:52that is

00:42:52willing to

00:42:53say

00:42:53this doesn't

00:42:55feel right

00:42:55the story

00:42:56that I've

00:42:57been told

00:42:57of success

00:42:58doesn't

00:42:59interest me

00:42:59the systems

00:43:01around me

00:43:01my parents

00:43:02don't look

00:43:03well

00:43:03that person

00:43:04doesn't

00:43:04the earth

00:43:05is literally

00:43:06on fire

00:43:06here and

00:43:07you're telling

00:43:07me to

00:43:07breathe

00:43:08I really

00:43:09applaud them

00:43:10for that

00:43:11and specifically

00:43:12in the UK

00:43:13hold a lot

00:43:13of space

00:43:14that there

00:43:14is still

00:43:14this stigma

00:43:15and there

00:43:15is this

00:43:16judgment

00:43:16and I

00:43:17put more

00:43:18of the

00:43:18responsibility

00:43:18of that

00:43:19barrier

00:43:19being broken

00:43:20down

00:43:20not on

00:43:21young

00:43:21people

00:43:22but on

00:43:22the

00:43:23institutions

00:43:23and how

00:43:24psychotherapy

00:43:24is trained

00:43:25specifically

00:43:25in this

00:43:26country

00:43:26I think

00:43:27it can

00:43:27be done

00:43:28a lot

00:43:29better

00:43:29a lot

00:43:30differently

00:43:30I think

00:43:30there's

00:43:31things that

00:43:31can be

00:43:31pulled

00:43:32from the

00:43:32North

00:43:32American

00:43:32model

00:43:33that can

00:43:33modernize

00:43:34it and

00:43:35make it

00:43:35more

00:43:35user

00:43:36friendly

00:43:36and

00:43:37more

00:43:38inviting

00:43:38and

00:43:38invitational

00:43:39to people

00:43:39that typically

00:43:40wouldn't

00:43:41access it

00:43:41I think

00:43:42you offer

00:43:43a great

00:43:43solution

00:43:44there

00:43:44and it's

00:43:45a lot

00:43:45more

00:43:46than I

00:43:47was

00:43:47expecting

00:43:47when I

00:43:48asked you

00:43:48what do

00:43:49you think

00:43:49about this

00:43:50idea that

00:43:50younger people

00:43:51are perhaps

00:43:51self-indulgent

00:43:52because we

00:43:53do need

00:43:53solutions

00:43:53we are

00:43:54seeing a

00:43:55mental health

00:43:55crisis

00:43:56a loneliness

00:43:56crisis

00:43:57and not

00:43:57just with

00:43:58young people

00:43:59across the

00:43:59entire spectrum

00:44:00of the UK's

00:44:01population

00:44:02Maya I wonder

00:44:03if you've got

00:44:03any thoughts

00:44:04on the idea

00:44:04that people

00:44:06are perhaps

00:44:07over-therapised

00:44:08or they're

00:44:10too sensitive

00:44:11because you

00:44:12teach resilience

00:44:13right

00:44:13it's interesting

00:44:14I think my

00:44:14generation

00:44:15are like

00:44:16we're very

00:44:17complex

00:44:17and I think

00:44:19it's so good

00:44:20that we are

00:44:20talking about

00:44:21things more

00:44:21and more

00:44:22and more

00:44:22and it opens

00:44:23such great

00:44:23conversation

00:44:24and we also

00:44:25have access

00:44:26to really

00:44:27interesting

00:44:28solutions

00:44:30therapies

00:44:31like I think

00:44:32you can get

00:44:32so much

00:44:33from books

00:44:33as well

00:44:34and articles

00:44:34and you know

00:44:35genuine

00:44:36interviews

00:44:37and pieces

00:44:37of these

00:44:38experts

00:44:38I just think

00:44:40it's how

00:44:40we go

00:44:41about

00:44:41finding

00:44:41the solution

00:44:42so I did

00:44:43a poll

00:44:43on my

00:44:43Instagram

00:44:43this was

00:44:44maybe like

00:44:45at the beginning

00:44:45of the year

00:44:46and I did

00:44:47the poll

00:44:47being like

00:44:48let's say

00:44:49you were

00:44:49struggling

00:44:49in life

00:44:50and you

00:44:50could take

00:44:51this pill

00:44:52and tomorrow

00:44:53you could feel

00:44:54so much

00:44:54better

00:44:54and like

00:44:56be really

00:44:56happy with

00:44:56your mind

00:44:57etc

00:44:57or the

00:44:58second option

00:44:58was you

00:44:59do like

00:45:00a type

00:45:00of coaching

00:45:01or therapy

00:45:01for let's

00:45:03say three

00:45:03or four

00:45:04years

00:45:04so it

00:45:04required

00:45:05three or

00:45:05four years

00:45:06before you

00:45:06got there

00:45:06and it

00:45:08was 94%

00:45:09to pick

00:45:10the pill

00:45:10and I

00:45:11think it

00:45:12was interesting

00:45:12because we

00:45:13don't see

00:45:14mental health

00:45:15or mental

00:45:15fitness

00:45:15like physical

00:45:17health

00:45:17or physical

00:45:18fitness yet

00:45:19we kind of

00:45:20expect it to be

00:45:21this thing

00:45:21like okay

00:45:22let's just

00:45:22do this

00:45:22for like a

00:45:23few months

00:45:23or weeks

00:45:24and then we

00:45:24should be

00:45:24good

00:45:25or you know

00:45:26there's a

00:45:26lack of

00:45:27like I

00:45:29guess

00:45:29empowerment

00:45:31I'm like

00:45:32I'm gonna

00:45:32do this

00:45:32for myself

00:45:33my mind

00:45:34is half

00:45:34my health

00:45:35just like

00:45:35I move

00:45:36my body

00:45:36just like

00:45:36I you know

00:45:37have a

00:45:38membership

00:45:38to the

00:45:38gym

00:45:39it's a

00:45:40maintenance

00:45:40thing

00:45:40and it's

00:45:41you know

00:45:41the way

00:45:42you think

00:45:42feel and

00:45:42perform

00:45:43dominates

00:45:43your entire

00:45:44life

00:45:44and I

00:45:45always say

00:45:46that with

00:45:46mental health

00:45:46there's a

00:45:47bit of a

00:45:47I guess

00:45:48a spectrum

00:45:49where you're

00:45:49either you know

00:45:50you've got

00:45:50really bad

00:45:50mental health

00:45:51which may

00:45:51lead to

00:45:52mental illness

00:45:53or you've

00:45:55got pretty

00:45:55good mental

00:45:56health

00:45:56which means

00:45:57okay cool

00:45:57you're mentally

00:45:58fit so you're

00:45:58actively maintaining

00:45:59it but then

00:46:00you also have

00:46:00mental weakness

00:46:01in life

00:46:02where you know

00:46:02we're human

00:46:03you might have

00:46:03a tiring day

00:46:04or something

00:46:05might happen

00:46:06naturally you're

00:46:06not going to

00:46:06be at your

00:46:08best state

00:46:08and I think

00:46:09it's just about

00:46:10being proactive

00:46:11by thinking

00:46:12you know what

00:46:13training your

00:46:14mind

00:46:14being mentally

00:46:15attractive

00:46:15managing your

00:46:16emotions

00:46:17knowing how to

00:46:18build your

00:46:19resilience

00:46:20is so damn

00:46:21sexy

00:46:21I think it's

00:46:22the best thing

00:46:23anyone can do

00:46:25for themselves

00:46:25but it's not

00:46:27a hack

00:46:29and it's

00:46:30not a

00:46:30short-term

00:46:31fix

00:46:32it's something

00:46:33that is a

00:46:35lifelong journey

00:46:35and it's actually

00:46:37one of the most

00:46:37incredible journeys

00:46:38to go on

00:46:39and I think a lot

00:46:40of people

00:46:40when you know

00:46:42they see that

00:46:42okay I'm a

00:46:43mental fitness

00:46:43expert

00:46:44they're like

00:46:44oh wow

00:46:45her mind

00:46:45must be like

00:46:46perfect

00:46:46absolutely not

00:46:47oh my gosh

00:46:48no

00:46:48I have

00:46:49negative thoughts

00:46:50I go into

00:46:51my spirals

00:46:51I sometimes

00:46:52struggle with

00:46:53emotions

00:46:53but at least

00:46:54now I have

00:46:55the tools

00:46:55that can help

00:46:56me out of

00:46:56them

00:46:57and that means

00:46:58I don't have

00:46:58to judge

00:46:58myself

00:46:59and it means

00:46:59I don't have

00:47:00to suppress

00:47:00them

00:47:01so I don't

00:47:03think we're

00:47:03over-therapised

00:47:04I think it's

00:47:05just how we

00:47:06are seeking

00:47:06those solutions

00:47:07and how we're

00:47:08actually implementing

00:47:09it into our

00:47:10lives

00:47:10because that's

00:47:12really what

00:47:13matters the

00:47:13most

00:47:14I love that

00:47:14and I also

00:47:15think the fact

00:47:16that you touched

00:47:17on it being

00:47:17a lifelong process

00:47:18is really

00:47:19interesting because

00:47:20Ailey was just

00:47:21saying we get

00:47:22six sessions

00:47:23on the NHS

00:47:24of mental health

00:47:25support

00:47:26so at what

00:47:27point do we

00:47:28know if

00:47:28we've had

00:47:29enough

00:47:29at what

00:47:30point do we

00:47:30know how

00:47:31much we

00:47:31need

00:47:31personally I

00:47:32agree with

00:47:32you I

00:47:32see this

00:47:33as a

00:47:34lifelong

00:47:34pursuit

00:47:35of a

00:47:36healthy

00:47:36mind

00:47:36but if

00:47:38someone

00:47:38has a few

00:47:39sessions

00:47:40and then

00:47:40cycles off

00:47:40and then

00:47:41feels like

00:47:41actually I've

00:47:42got what

00:47:43it takes

00:47:43right now

00:47:43I'm fine

00:47:44for the

00:47:44time being

00:47:45I can

00:47:45start this

00:47:46again whenever

00:47:46I need

00:47:47to

00:47:47someone else

00:47:48might take

00:47:48a completely

00:47:49different approach

00:47:49and say no

00:47:50I need

00:47:50this forever

00:47:51do you

00:47:52think that

00:47:53you know

00:47:53it's possible

00:47:54to complete

00:47:55therapy

00:47:55can you

00:47:56get to the

00:47:57point where

00:47:57there's a

00:47:57finish line

00:47:58or is it

00:47:59something that

00:47:59you are going

00:48:00to be doing

00:48:00consistently

00:48:01or on and

00:48:01off maybe

00:48:02for the rest

00:48:02of your

00:48:03life

00:48:03to answer

00:48:04that question

00:48:05I think

00:48:06it's important

00:48:06to bring in

00:48:07just the scope

00:48:08of individual

00:48:09difference

00:48:09some people

00:48:10are really

00:48:11inclined to

00:48:12explore their

00:48:13own inner

00:48:13world and

00:48:14have evolution

00:48:15and development

00:48:16and they love

00:48:16personal growth

00:48:17and like that's

00:48:18their sweet spot

00:48:19they're like

00:48:19yummy and

00:48:20some people

00:48:20are like I

00:48:21want that

00:48:21development and

00:48:22growth in

00:48:22business or

00:48:23my creative

00:48:23practices so

00:48:25that's deeply

00:48:26going to

00:48:26influence and

00:48:27I don't think

00:48:27we give that

00:48:28as much kind

00:48:29of weight when

00:48:30we talk about

00:48:30therapy being

00:48:31ongoing how I

00:48:32was trained and

00:48:33I still hold

00:48:34this in my

00:48:34training is a

00:48:35sign of actually

00:48:36really good work

00:48:37is my client

00:48:39outgrowing me I

00:48:41have led them to

00:48:42those places they

00:48:43have explored those

00:48:44things and they

00:48:44have gone actually

00:48:46in this dynamic

00:48:47with Ailey I

00:48:49don't get to

00:48:49explore this one

00:48:50part of me and

00:48:52and I want to

00:48:52explore that part

00:48:53and so they go

00:48:54somewhere else let

00:48:54that be another

00:48:55therapist let that

00:48:56be a practice let

00:48:57that be coaching

00:48:58whatever that is and

00:48:59so I I in the UK

00:49:01there is more of

00:49:02this narrative of

00:49:03like I stay in

00:49:04therapy for a

00:49:04really long time and

00:49:05I had my

00:49:06practitioner and we

00:49:06spend decades

00:49:07together that

00:49:08isn't much of a

00:49:10North American

00:49:10narrative we we

00:49:12do value long-term

00:49:13work and there's a

00:49:14lot that you can

00:49:15get out of that but

00:49:16we also value that

00:49:17each therapist is a

00:49:18different person it's

00:49:19a different

00:49:19relationship they're

00:49:20meeting you at a

00:49:21different point in

00:49:21their life and so

00:49:23you'll have a

00:49:24different experience

00:49:24and we kind of more

00:49:26encourage our clients

00:49:28into that right off

00:49:29the the start from

00:49:31what I've heard and

00:49:32what I've experienced

00:49:32here in the UK which

00:49:33is more like the

00:49:34psychoanalytical

00:49:35tradition of we

00:49:36stay and we keep

00:49:37meeting at the same

00:49:38time every week until

00:49:39the end of time

00:49:40because that is our

00:49:41time together which is

00:49:42a different practice

00:49:43so in completing

00:49:46therapy I think and

00:49:48I always empower my

00:49:49clients with these

00:49:49questions of you

00:49:51know let's go back to

00:49:52your goals what led

00:49:53you here okay let's

00:49:55check on them every

00:49:55six months are those

00:49:57the same goals have

00:49:59you got those pieces

00:50:00do you have new goals

00:50:01and so I weave that

00:50:03in so we're not just

00:50:04in this relationship

00:50:05that could go on for

00:50:06time immoral we have

00:50:08something very specific

00:50:09and a clear focus and

00:50:11I really empower my

00:50:12clients that you have

00:50:14one precious life

00:50:15there are a thousand

00:50:17ways to grow and

00:50:18develop this is one

00:50:19practice maybe it's

00:50:21your growth and your

00:50:22development here led

00:50:23you to want to go

00:50:24practice your growth

00:50:24and development

00:50:25somewhere else and I

00:50:26always really softly

00:50:27encourage that to

00:50:29ensure that we don't

00:50:30end up with dependency

00:50:31because you know we're

00:50:33not here to to to

00:50:35depend on anyone

00:50:36therapy is supposed to

00:50:37be a practice where you

00:50:38do cultivate a capacity

00:50:39for interdependence not

00:50:40independence this isn't

00:50:42you on an island out

00:50:43there it's actually I

00:50:44know how to relate with

00:50:45people in a supportive

00:50:46way and I know that

00:50:48there's some more

00:50:49support out there if I

00:50:50lose some of that

00:50:50support as well

00:50:51ultimately we want to

00:50:53feel happier more

00:50:54confident more capable

00:50:55don't we able to just

00:50:56get on and move through

00:50:59life in the way that

00:51:00makes us feel safe

00:51:01but yeah I agree I

00:51:03think you know there's

00:51:05there's perhaps a

00:51:06different way of doing

00:51:06it here to to other

00:51:08places but there's

00:51:09probably no right way

00:51:10to do it it's got to

00:51:12be a personal journey

00:51:12and speaking of

00:51:14personal journeys I

00:51:15do want to ask you a

00:51:16little bit about your

00:51:17personal habits so my

00:51:19final question for you

00:51:19both is what is your

00:51:21one wellness non

00:51:22negotiable what's the

00:51:23personal habit for you

00:51:25that you could not live

00:51:26without when it comes to

00:51:27your health and

00:51:27wellness I guess I'm

00:51:29slightly biased here but

00:51:31mine mine has to be

00:51:32visualization yeah I've

00:51:33been doing it for now

00:51:34about eight years for me

00:51:36I think the number one

00:51:38thing I'll do with

00:51:38visualization is every

00:51:39day I wake up I spend

00:51:41time to just close my

00:51:42eyes and I will

00:51:43intentionally mentally

00:51:44rehearse who I want to

00:51:46be today how I want to

00:51:47show up because I think

00:51:49your character is

00:51:50something non can take

00:51:51away from you and so

00:51:53many of us are on

00:51:53autopilot we do the

00:51:55same habits the same

00:51:56thought patterns it's

00:51:58just also automatic and

00:51:59habitual so we want to

00:52:01tell our brain prime our

00:52:03brain hey I want to

00:52:04walk into a room like

00:52:05this today I want to

00:52:06feel like this and at

00:52:07least it gives you the

00:52:08the best chance of

00:52:09doing that so I'd say

00:52:10definitely visualization

00:52:12and mental rehearsal

00:52:13but I have to just add

00:52:14one more which I add in

00:52:15anyway to it every night

00:52:18every single night before

00:52:20I go to bed I'll always

00:52:21tell myself Maya you're

00:52:25just not grateful enough

00:52:26because I'm a very

00:52:29grateful person like I'm

00:52:30super grateful but that

00:52:31one statement just reminds

00:52:33me to find that one more

00:52:34thing one more thing no

00:52:36matter how stressful my

00:52:36day is Maya you're not

00:52:38grateful enough it will

00:52:39force me to even just

00:52:41find okay I had a nice

00:52:42dinner I can breathe my

00:52:44dog is sitting there

00:52:45whatever it is and it's a

00:52:48little bit it's a little

00:52:49bit intense for people but

00:52:50you know what it works for

00:52:51my mind and it always

00:52:52always allows me to go to

00:52:53bed knowing that I'm

00:52:55feeling more grateful as I

00:52:56do that so those are my

00:52:57two that are non-negotiable

00:52:58I do that too every night

00:53:01before bed I remind myself

00:53:04to to just remember how

00:53:06lucky I am yeah and it

00:53:08does really help me focus

00:53:09on the positives yeah what

00:53:11about you Ailey what's your

00:53:12wellness non-negotiable

00:53:13mine is a practice that I

00:53:16have throughout my day and

00:53:18it definitely comes from my

00:53:19training but also I I know

00:53:22the importance of our breath

00:53:24and so for me it's

00:53:25constantly noticing the

00:53:27sensations around my rib

00:53:28cage we know that our

00:53:29breath is our nervous

00:53:30system's fastest regulator

00:53:32if we want to get into

00:53:33that parasympathetic state

00:53:35and actually experience

00:53:36some of that calm or the

00:53:37rest and digest get out of

00:53:38that like anxious mind it

00:53:40is to consciously breathe and

00:53:42so that is my like go-to is

00:53:45to constantly throughout the

00:53:46day be checking in with my

00:53:48body the sensations that are

00:53:50inside the tightness and

00:53:52using my breath as

00:53:53something to modulate my

00:53:55nervous system because it

00:53:57changes my prefrontal cortex

00:53:58it changes my capacity to

00:53:59connect to you it actually

00:54:01changes my vocal tone to be

00:54:02more soothing which will

00:54:04then people respond

00:54:05differently to me and so

00:54:06there's lots of fun little

00:54:08neuroscience reasons but

00:54:09also more than anything it

00:54:11just makes me more present

00:54:12and more available and it

00:54:13reconnects me to my heart

00:54:14and you don't have to pay for

00:54:16it it's not something you

00:54:18need to like shame or judge

00:54:19yourself into we all have

00:54:20moments where we catch

00:54:22ourselves holding our breath

00:54:23and so it can just be slowly

00:54:24and very gracefully just add

00:54:27it into your day as your

00:54:28awareness of your body

00:54:29grows I love that breath

00:54:31work really is the one

00:54:32isn't it and it's becoming

00:54:33more and more popular and I

00:54:34love to see it and and I

00:54:36suppose breathing and

00:54:38checking in with the body

00:54:39that is all part of the

00:54:40practice of somatics right

00:54:41which is something that

00:54:42you're an expert in I

00:54:43wonder if you can explain

00:54:44that a little bit because

00:54:45it is fascinating and

00:54:46something that maybe more

00:54:47people should should know

00:54:48about absolutely um so as

00:54:52a somatic psychologist I

00:54:53have a master's degree in

00:54:55somatic studies in addition

00:54:57to all the other degrees you

00:54:58need to be a psychologist

00:54:59and why I chose somatics is

00:55:02because it really looks and

00:55:04it trains you to observe the

00:55:06physiology of the body in

00:55:08front of you because we know

00:55:09physiology informs psychology

00:55:11so one of the ways that a

00:55:13somatic psychologist is

00:55:15different is we observe your

00:55:17breath pattern we observe

00:55:18where you're bracing in your

00:55:20body we observe okay are

00:55:21you walking in the room and

00:55:22your shoulders are hunched

00:55:23in are you over exerted out

00:55:24because this is going to

00:55:25tell us really useful

00:55:26information on your nervous

00:55:28system and we have all

00:55:30experienced some form of

00:55:32adversity or overwhelm and

00:55:34those forms of adversity or

00:55:35overwhelm shape our nervous

00:55:37system and they shape our

00:55:38nervous system to maybe shut

00:55:40down and collapse or be more

00:55:42anxious and that all lives in

00:55:45the body and then changes our

00:55:46fascia so the connective

00:55:48tissues that hold everything

00:55:49together it shapes how

00:55:50they're they're held and so

00:55:52somatic psychology we're

00:55:53looking at the physiology of

00:55:55the body we're still

00:55:56listening to the story our

00:55:58client is telling us but

00:55:59we're also watching for

00:56:00congruence are the words

00:56:02you're saying to me about how

00:56:03you feel actually resonate and

00:56:07mirror what's going on in

00:56:08your nervous system are you

00:56:09sitting there telling me that

00:56:10your week was perfect and your

00:56:11hand is like shaking and

00:56:13you're like what's going on

00:56:14over there you're tapping or

00:56:15you're telling me you're happy

00:56:16and I'm like I haven't seen

00:56:17you take a full breath in the

00:56:18past 45 minutes and you're

00:56:19saying everything is fine like

00:56:20clearly something is not fine

00:56:22and so we ask these more

00:56:24provocative questions around I

00:56:26noticed your affect change

00:56:27what's going on over there did

00:56:30you notice that you haven't

00:56:31made eye contact with me in the

00:56:32past 30 minutes you don't have

00:56:34to look at me actually I'll look

00:56:35away so we can maintain not

00:56:37having eye contact but just

00:56:39observe what that is and so

00:56:41somatics really honors that our

00:56:43past history our own

00:56:45individually collectively and

00:56:46intergenerationally lives in the

00:56:48nervous system and it honors

00:56:50that for us to change our

00:56:51psychology our body needs to

00:56:53complete its stress response

00:56:54cycle so we need to change the

00:56:56activation level in our

00:56:57nervous system and so we are

00:56:59typically trained in the classic

00:57:02clinical way we hit all those

00:57:04boxes and then we have this

00:57:06additional training that really

00:57:07roots in the mind-body

00:57:08connection honoring that you

00:57:10know our gut microbiome and our

00:57:12brain are constantly in

00:57:13communication and we bring that

00:57:15into the practice of therapy I

00:57:17think that is fascinating and

00:57:19also so interesting because we've

00:57:21talked a lot about mental health

00:57:23we've talked a lot about being in

00:57:24our heads but we do forget that

00:57:26you know we are a whole system of

00:57:29processes aren't we so what's

00:57:31going on up here is also being

00:57:32reflected in the whole body one of

00:57:34my favorite little stats that I

00:57:36always throw out there is we know

00:57:39that the mind takes in 0.0001% of

00:57:44the information around us your

00:57:46fascia and your body your gut

00:57:48microbiome your interceptor

00:57:50everything else is being absorbed

00:57:52by the body and so when we think

00:57:54of trauma it's also like okay in

00:57:56that incident I have these memories

00:57:58but this whole system has a whole

00:58:00other collective memory response

00:58:01there too and that's influencing your

00:58:03life and so that statistic is

00:58:05obviously rough because it's really

00:58:07hard to get the raw data to be like

00:58:09this is exactly the number but I

00:58:11love it because it starts to open up

00:58:12this conversation around my mental

00:58:15health is impacted by by things my

00:58:18mind doesn't even hold and so if I

00:58:20want to improve this or have a

00:58:22different experience in my mental

00:58:23health I actually have to start

00:58:25opening up my my mind and start

00:58:28letting go of these ideas I have

00:58:30because there's lots of things that

00:58:32I don't know and that there's kind

00:58:33of this great mystery inside of me

00:58:35and in that way therapy can kind of

00:58:38feel like an adventure which is why I

00:58:40love somatics because we are on an

00:58:41adventure of the unknown and of the

00:58:44body absolutely and it's great that

00:58:46you mentioned adventure because what I

00:58:48wanted to ask you Maya is if you

00:58:49would take us on one of your little

00:58:51mental adventures because you do

00:58:53visualization in such a fascinating

00:58:55way I wonder if you could help us

00:58:59tap in and do a visualization together

00:59:01that people listening at home or

00:59:03watching at home can also do with us

00:59:04yeah okay I will do that I was

00:59:06actually going to ask how do you think

00:59:07our nervous systems are have you been

00:59:09observing them I was worrying about the

00:59:10way I was sitting yeah I was like oh

00:59:11because you're doing this shoulder thing

00:59:12I was like oh I'm doing this um okay so

00:59:15this actually links really well so this

00:59:16is a creative visualization and it's

00:59:19used to essentially make intangible

00:59:22sensations in your body tangible so it

00:59:24can be used for emotions pain disease

00:59:26injury whatever it might be and this

00:59:29really comes from medicine so have you

00:59:31seen the film inside out yes yeah so

00:59:33kind of use that as a bit of

00:59:34inspiration so whether it's a

00:59:36character whether it's an animal

00:59:37shape anything and we'll do it for

00:59:40maybe like an uncomfortable emotion

00:59:42that you either frequently feel or

00:59:43that you felt in the past or maybe you

00:59:45might be feeling it right now or

00:59:46there's just a bit of tension okay so

00:59:48close your eyes for me okay let's just

00:59:51take one deep breath breathing in

00:59:52and exhale through the mouth

00:59:56okay and just keep breathing in a

01:00:03rhythm that works for you

01:00:05and I want you to take a moment to just

01:00:09think about something in your life right

01:00:11now that's maybe creating an emotional

01:00:15response might be a bit of discomfort

01:00:17maybe it's something from the past bit of

01:00:22worry frustration fear maybe it's a

01:00:25person maybe it just might be tension

01:00:29in the body and I want you to tune in

01:00:33to where you feel it in the body

01:00:35whether it's the chest could be some

01:00:40tightness maybe it's the gut bit of

01:00:43like a heaviness there maybe it's a

01:00:46full body thing just become really

01:00:49curious where do I feel this sensation

01:00:52emotion or emotion now instead of

01:00:58suppressing this or running away from

01:01:00it or avoiding it we're going to make

01:01:02this into a shape or a color or a

01:01:05character so I want you to get creative

01:01:08use your imagination and I want you to

01:01:11visualize what this emotional sensation

01:01:13looks like as an object a character an

01:01:18animal a shape just be really creative

01:01:20might be like a red fire it's like

01:01:23really hot or it could be like a roaring

01:01:26lion maybe it's like a green snake or

01:01:29some ropes find an image that aligns and

01:01:35just sit with it for a moment if it needs

01:01:37to get bigger hotter colder tighter let it

01:01:40feel the emotion to heal it and now with

01:01:47your mind slowly we're going to start to

01:01:52dissolve this image and again be creative

01:01:55do you need to pour water over it do you

01:01:58need to kick it do you want to play with

01:02:00it maybe it just gets smaller and smaller

01:02:04on its own but use your mind to help you

01:02:07and so keep going until it's now the size

01:02:13of a tiny tiny pea it's so small

01:02:15good and take one more deep breath now

01:02:20in through the nose

01:02:21as you exhale let it fully dissolve

01:02:25and just feel that lightness that space

01:02:32that openness in your body

01:02:35and you can open your eyes

01:02:39that was great all my worries melted away

01:02:43it's not magic but yeah you might feel a

01:02:46bit calmer lighter I used to do so much in

01:02:48hospital for pain but again this was like

01:02:51a little bit of a sped up version I'd ask

01:02:52you to spend a little bit more time just

01:02:54exploring but it's so great for kids as

01:02:57well do it with your kids they love it

01:02:59they can start to understand and be

01:03:00playful with their emotions as well

01:03:02the power of the imagination there is

01:03:04actually a lot stronger than maybe we

01:03:07think right because often I don't close

01:03:09my eyes and start imagining things in the

01:03:11way that I just did but anyone can do it

01:03:14most people do use their imagination but

01:03:16there's this one saying that it's super

01:03:18interesting so worry is the misuse of

01:03:21imagination because we're always imagining

01:03:24worst case scenarios things going wrong or

01:03:26us failing or stuff from the past and

01:03:29whatever you repeat you get good at so if

01:03:31you can be intentional with your

01:03:32imagination it can really take you

01:03:34anywhere have a bit more fun with it

01:03:35thank you so much for talking us through

01:03:38that that was amazing and also I've

01:03:40learned so much just in this conversation

01:03:42with you both so I'm so grateful to you

01:03:44for your expertise and for joining me on

01:03:45the sofa today if you are interested in

01:03:48learning more about what Maya does then

01:03:50you can read her book visualize which is

01:03:52now available in all good bookshops and

01:03:54online and if you're interested in learning

01:03:56more about somatics self-care and therapy

01:03:59you can look up Ailey's practice and

01:04:01listen to her podcast in this body thank

01:04:04you so much for joining us for this

01:04:05episode of well enough we'll see you next

01:04:07time and in the meantime stay well

01:04:08just a note to say that if you are

01:04:16struggling please consider speaking to

01:04:17your GP or navigate to any of the free

01:04:19resources included in the show notes

01:04:21please

01:04:24euphoria

01:04:26you

01:04:28you

01:04:29you

01:04:31you

01:04:33you

01:04:34you

01:04:37you

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