- 4 months ago
The top focus of this episode of 5 Live is the leaked conversations between Chaitanyananda Saraswati and women students of Delhi management institute, where he served as director.
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00:00Hi there, I'm Sonal Manotra Kapoor. This is 5 Live. Over the next one hour, we'll be bringing you stories that demand your time, stories that should ignite you, stories that deserve your attention.
00:14And since this is 5 o'clock, we always make it health clock. We make it about stories that will inspire your healthiest, happiest lives as well.
00:23So let's get started. Let's tell you first what the top 10 stories of the day are.
00:28Let's start with the shocking sex chats which have been accessed exclusively by India Today that show how Delibaba's predatory behaviour really was.
00:38And he went on to say stuff which is cringeworthy. Will you sleep with me? Or to being pimped to even a Dubai shake.
00:47All the sleazy behaviour of the so-called Baba has now been exposed.
00:52Then we take you through what's been happening in RSS. Prime Minister Modi has honoured RSS's 100th year legacy.
01:01He has released a post-it stamp and a coin praising the achievements of the RSS saying they always put nation first.
01:07Then the big Boreli riot plot which has been exposed. Religious groups used fake letter to provoke.
01:17Now, Tukir's aid under lens over provocative letter. India Today has now unmasked the villain of the Boreli riots.
01:25Singha, Zuban Garg's death probe has intensified. Zuban's event organiser and manager has been arrested by Assam CID.
01:38The duo remanded to 14 days of police custody. What exactly is the plot there? We'll bring you the details.
01:45The next one, a worrying one. Alarming reports of children suffering serious side effects after consuming a cough syrup.
01:57Now, the cases have triggered panic across Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan where multiple children deaths have been linked
02:03to the same medicine of the same brand from the same pharma company.
02:08Which one is it? Stay tuned to get to know more details.
02:12In other news, trophy chore, Mohsim Nakvi has apologised for the fiasco at Asia Cup.
02:22At the trophy presentation there after the outrage, he refuses to hand over the trophy, however, to Team India.
02:32Meanwhile, deadlock over healthcare and spending bills in US.
02:36Senate Democrats vote down the key bill forcing US government towards a shutdown.
02:40This is for the first time in seven years that we are seeing an absolute government shutdown.
02:47What does it mean? We'll take you through all those details.
02:51Then the controversy over Charlie Kirk's murder doesn't seem to be ending.
02:55Now, the latest one is the face-off between Elon Musk and Netflix.
03:00Elon Musk has cancelled his Netflix subscription after a controversial post by a Netflix show creator,
03:06sparking outrage over the remarks that were made on Kirk.
03:13In while a powerful earthquake has rocked the Philippines, leaving behind panic, destruction and dozens dead.
03:20Heart-breaking visuals have come out that showed bodies lined up across hospital corridors
03:25with at least 69 lives lost and dozens more injured.
03:30Medical teams crambling to respond.
03:32And then, it's King Khan again, who has in fact officially entered the M3 and Hurun India Rich List 2025
03:47as India's richest entertainer, debuting with a staggering net worth of 12,490 crore.
03:55Juhi Chawla and family take second.
03:58Surprise, surprise.
03:59But then, the value after King Khan's is 7,790 crore in wealth.
04:04Our top story today is going to really be one that triggers you.
04:17So, I'm going to start off the show with the trigger warning straight away.
04:20The details I'm going to tell you now will make you cringe, will make your skin crawl.
04:27They are so disturbing that we deliberately actually decided not to tell you all the details altogether.
04:33We were having a debate in the newsroom of all the details that we should actually carry at all.
04:38But in the end, we decided to go ahead with the story because it's important that the true face
04:43of the predator, the disgusting face of the so-called babas who claim to be the men of faith,
04:55that has to be unmasked.
04:58So, for a moment, take a pause and, you know, bear with me a little bit.
05:03Asaram Bapu, Ram Raheem, Nityananda, and now the latest so-called baba to be exposed
05:10is that man on your screen.
05:13He calls himself Swami Chaitanya Nanda Saraswati.
05:16But let's call him for who he really is.
05:18He's not a god man.
05:19He's a fraud man.
05:21His name is Partha Sarathi.
05:23And what do all these babas who I just named for you right now, what do they have in common?
05:30In the name of God, they abuse.
05:33In the name of God, they molest.
05:36In the name of God, they trick minors into trafficking.
05:40And they're getting more and more sophisticated.
05:43What's shocking is his affiliation with the reputed management institute,
05:48the Sarada Institute of Indian Management, where he served as a director.
05:53And he wasn't just some self, you know, some random self-style guru.
05:58He posed as a spiritual mentor using that position to lure victims and exploit them.
06:03This institute we told you about is in South Delhi, the very affluent Vasant Kunj.
06:08His modus operandi, it involved grooming vulnerable people,
06:14creating fake spiritual connections and demanding special favors as well.
06:19Even pushing some into trafficking networks tied to Dubai shakes.
06:24The evidence, well, India Today has got their hands on that.
06:28Chats obtained by the police reveal very explicit sex demands and a chilling trafficking angle.
06:36We at India Today have accessed some of these chats.
06:40It's cringeworthy, to say the least.
06:42I'm not going to get into the details, but some of them you should know.
06:45In one of them, this so-called Swami is referring to one of his students
06:50as his sweetest baby, his doll daughter.
06:53In another leaked conversation, he goes on to make a very desperate plea.
06:59Without any replies, this message reads that,
07:04Baby, where are you?
07:05Are you angry with me?
07:07The next set of leaked texts reveal his sort of predatory persistence.
07:12When the student messaged that she was going to sleep and would call him tomorrow,
07:17he replies by saying,
07:19You will not sleep with me?
07:21Are you upset with me?
07:23Speak.
07:24Now, this isn't just abuse.
07:28It's an organized exploitation disguised as spirituality
07:32with people in position of power,
07:36with access to girls who are vulnerable.
07:39His repeated coercive tone underscores the disturbing pressure
07:43he placed on these women.
07:45And the frustration here is this,
07:49that these so-called godmen get away by all of this.
07:53Look at those pictures.
07:56Asa Rambapu, Nityananda, Ram Rahim,
08:00they've all been convicted, yes,
08:02but only after long delays, legal battles,
08:04and too much suffering for the victims.
08:07The inaction, slow legal process gives them little hope, no?
08:12Little hope for women who want to speak up.
08:16The law needs to move faster,
08:17strike harder on these fraudsters
08:19who hide behind religion and faiths to commit these crimes.
08:23This isn't just a story about one man.
08:26It's about a system that lets them thrive.
08:30So the question really is,
08:31when will we stop turning a blind eye?
08:34When will our faith make us question,
08:37reason,
08:38not just go on for blind belief?
08:41Let's take this story,
08:46this very, very disturbing story forward
08:48with our guests.
08:50First up, joining me is Dr. Kiran Bedi,
08:52former IPS officer.
08:54Dr. Bedi, I want to start by asking you,
08:57the criminality angle of this all,
08:59the Management Institute he was part of,
09:01I say he was because they have washed their hands,
09:04saying that they want nothing to do with the man anymore.
09:07But can that be the case?
09:08Would you say in cases like these,
09:10they would be as liable,
09:12as responsible?
09:16Everybody.
09:18I would not even exclude the girls,
09:21because somewhere they were,
09:22some may have been gaining financially or otherwise.
09:25So I think there is something wrong.
09:28Even in their spiritual mutt,
09:32if they mutt,
09:32I don't know why,
09:33what you mean to say such things
09:35don't come to their knowledge?
09:36They do.
09:37But everybody seemed to be
09:39having a hand in the till.
09:43Again, it is a greed.
09:45Nothing else.
09:45They fall for it for what reason?
09:48What reason?
09:49Not renunciation,
09:50not blessing.
09:51It's a greed.
09:52Somewhere there is a greed.
09:54Somewhere there is a personal interest.
09:56You are a gainer.
09:57You have to be a gainer
09:58to be silent to a crime.
10:01Dr. Bedi,
10:02you are saying that
10:03the girls are responsible as much.
10:05I find that a little disturbing.
10:07In cases like these,
10:08I just named some of them.
10:10Case after case,
10:11we've seen how
10:12witnesses have turned hostile.
10:15Witnesses have gone missing.
10:16Witnesses have died.
10:18We don't see a closure
10:19on cases like these.
10:20Where is the North Star?
10:21Then what confidence
10:22will any victim get
10:24to actually come out and speak up?
10:26It's difficult to report.
10:27It's not difficult
10:33if women get together.
10:36It's not difficult.
10:38Problem is
10:39only when you're
10:40only by one or two.
10:42But if you gang up together,
10:44group together,
10:45then it's not easy.
10:46Difficult.
10:47Then it's not difficult.
10:48Because then you only have
10:49to tap social media on that.
10:51Social media.
10:52Even anonymously,
10:53you can put on social media
10:55name and shame it.
10:56Why not use social media?
10:58In fact,
10:58one of the biggest advantages
10:59of social media
11:00is for this purpose.
11:02To protect yourself
11:03and expose the man.
11:04Why did you not do this?
11:06I can't imagine
11:07they were also
11:08so foolish and ignorant.
11:10I'm sure they knew
11:10they could do it.
11:11But why did they keep quiet?
11:14They also are equally
11:15accountable.
11:17I'm telling you today,
11:18exposing a bad character
11:20is not difficult.
11:22You just have to put him
11:22on Instagram.
11:24And this is not defamation.
11:25It's not defamation.
11:26You can even tag
11:27the governments
11:29of the day.
11:31The positions of the day.
11:33You can tag them
11:33and it'll go.
11:35Why would not?
11:35Instagram,
11:36Facebook,
11:37your Twitter,
11:39X handles,
11:40they're all available.
11:41LinkedIn,
11:42tell me where
11:42if you do this
11:44all in one shot,
11:45it's a viral.
11:46It'll go viral.
11:47So who says that
11:48it's difficult?
11:49It's not difficult.
11:50Today,
11:51defaming a person
11:52or seeking justice
11:54through proper messaging
11:55is possible.
11:59Both.
12:00Ma'am,
12:00I hear you,
12:01but I'm finding it
12:02difficult to process this
12:08because in case after case,
12:10we've seen
12:11it's been girls
12:12who are minors.
12:13We've seen girls
12:15who have come from
12:17economically weaker sections.
12:19They've been girls
12:20who've got admission
12:21to these colleges,
12:22et cetera,
12:23on quota.
12:24They have fought
12:25really hard
12:26to be where they are
12:27and then
12:28to be facing this
12:31in under broad daylight
12:33in a place like Delhi
12:34in the national capital
12:35in affluent places.
12:38And like I said,
12:39where is the North Star
12:40that any of these
12:41babas go punished?
12:42They're out on parole
12:43half the time.
12:48There are
12:48legal forums.
12:51There are a lot of NGOs
12:52which are doing
12:53legal pro-activism.
12:55I say,
12:55why not tap them?
12:56But as I said,
12:57there is no shortcut.
12:59Use the social media
13:00for justice.
13:02And for such cases,
13:04your best bet
13:05is social media.
13:06And if you have evidence,
13:08put it.
13:08Don't be afraid
13:09because you are not
13:10defending anybody.
13:11You're basing it on evidence.
13:12And you can be a larger group
13:14and you can also be,
13:15in that case,
13:16protect yourself.
13:18But I said,
13:18tag them
13:19to powers that be.
13:22And they have no choice.
13:24Had they tagged
13:26the,
13:26let's say,
13:27myGOV.in,
13:30myGOV.in
13:31is PM's portal.
13:33MyGOV.in
13:34and every grievance
13:36sent to myGOV.in
13:37gets registered
13:38and goes to the right
13:40organizations
13:40and right departments
13:42and then action
13:43is asked for
13:44and it comes on record.
13:46Why?
13:47What's the big deal
13:48about this?
13:49Emailing?
13:49What about group emailing?
13:51What about group emailing?
13:53Why?
13:53What are they afraid of?
13:54So I think
13:55they not use
13:56the communication tools
13:57waking up one day
13:5816 of them
13:59and they were afraid
14:00earlier.
14:01No.
14:01I think they too
14:02were probably
14:03benefiting.
14:04I'm sorry
14:05to say that
14:06but they could be.
14:07They can't say
14:08we were scared.
14:09Are you?
14:09Facebook
14:10do you always
14:11phone on Facebook?
14:12You know
14:13everything you can
14:15learn about
14:15social media.
14:17Today's generation
14:18knows everything
14:19how to use
14:19the social media.
14:20Why can't
14:21social media
14:22be used
14:23for getting
14:24justice to themselves?
14:28Alright.
14:28Dr. Kiran Bedi,
14:29thank you so much
14:30for joining us
14:31with your thoughts.
14:32I have to say
14:33don't quite agree
14:34with what she's
14:34saying over there.
14:36It is not easy
14:37for victims
14:38to always report.
14:39We've seen that
14:40in case after case.
14:42That's why committees
14:42are formed
14:43and I think
14:44the responsibility
14:45must also rest
14:46with these institutes
14:47who bring people
14:48on board as directors
14:49who bring people
14:50there were cameras
14:51for all of you
14:52that were found
14:53in their washrooms
14:55in their changing rooms
14:57in their places
14:59where they used
15:00to sleep
15:00and those access
15:03was the access
15:04to all those cameras
15:05were also found
15:06with this guy
15:07this man on your screen
15:08over there
15:08who posed to be a Baba.
15:10So clearly
15:10there's a larger web
15:11and everybody needs
15:12to be questioned
15:13very clearly
15:13but let's take a pause
15:15for a minute
15:15and go back
15:17because if you haven't
15:18heard the gory details
15:19on the story just yet
15:21well you should
15:22see this report.
15:23It is Delhi's saga
15:28of shame.
15:30Chaitanya Nand,
15:31Delhi's monster Baba
15:32who allegedly molested
15:33at least 17 young students
15:35at his institute
15:36has been nabbed
15:37by cops
15:38but more skeletons
15:39continue to tumble
15:41out of his closet.
15:43India Today
15:44has now accessed
15:44his shocking sex chats
15:46that investigators say
15:48expose his predatory behaviour.
15:51In one chat
15:52he asks the girl
15:53if she will sleep with him.
15:55While in another
15:55he says that
15:56a sheikh from Dubai
15:57wants a sex partner
15:59and even asks the student
16:00if a classmate
16:01or a junior
16:02might be available.
16:05The self-styled godman
16:06flooded his victims
16:07with sleazy lines.
16:09Now in the chats
16:10you can see
16:10he used to call them
16:12baby
16:12baby
16:13baby
16:13where are you
16:14good morning baby
16:15these are the kind of messages
16:16that the molester Baba
16:17used to send
16:18the students
16:18the girls
16:20on chats
16:21and the most important message
16:23that you need to see
16:24is that
16:24you will not sleep with me.
16:26This is the kind of language
16:27and the kind of messages
16:29that were sent
16:30by this self-styled godman
16:32to young girls.
16:33Will you not sleep with me?
16:35Good evening
16:36my most beloved
16:37baby daughter
16:38is how he used
16:39to call these girls
16:40is how he used
16:41to address these girls.
16:45Cops now suspect
16:46that the self-styled godman
16:47may be involved
16:48in sex trafficking.
16:50His texts
16:51where he revealed
16:51pimping for wealthy
16:52Dubai sheikhs
16:53are now under
16:54the police scanner.
16:55Yes,
16:57some people
16:57see that
16:59these things
17:00are doing
17:00from the beginning
17:01which do not feel
17:02that they are professional
17:03things.
17:03They are personal
17:04things.
17:04There are photos
17:06of some
17:07aerosteers
17:08or when I sit
17:09in the normal way
17:10and some children
17:13have sent
17:13their data
17:14to be sent
17:15to them.
17:15They have started
17:17talking to them
17:18about it.
17:19In other words,
17:20the same way
17:21of the problems
17:22they say
17:23As probe continues, Delhi police have now taken Chaitanya Nant to his institute along with one of his women aides.
17:44This bone-chilling case has exposed how female students in some of Delhi's reputed educational institutes remain vulnerable to sexual exploitation.
17:54With Arvind Oja and Anjali Pandey, Bureau Report, India Today.
18:14I was talking to Dr. Kiran Bedi, I don't know if you heard that interview over there right before you guys joined in.
18:19And I was trying to understand that, you know, it's difficult.
18:23My understanding is that it's difficult for women to come out and report.
18:27Especially when you've seen cases after cases, report after report, eyewitness after eyewitness backing off in other cases.
18:34There is terror, there is fear, there is shaming that takes place.
18:39And frankly, as a reporter, reporting so many of these stories over the years, it frustrates me that stories like these still continue to happen.
18:48When there are cameras found inside washrooms, etc.
18:51So I'll ask you straight, what do you think, in these cases, who is to be blamed first?
18:59This is, it's not just the criminal, it's a system that supports the criminal as well.
19:04It's these colleges where he's roped in as directors.
19:07It's these ashrams that are running a full system backing in a molestation.
19:13You're absolutely right.
19:15It is a complete system.
19:17But we also want to hold the state accountable.
19:20Because the state has got some laws.
19:23They expect that these institutions, especially educational institutions, have to comply with certain norms.
19:30Now, why has there not been any compliance?
19:32Is there posh in this particular organization, institution?
19:37Has there a background check being done of a person who's being brought into the institution where there are children and young people and women?
19:44So the institution is to be held accountable.
19:47We rarely see that in India, especially, like you mentioned, so many cases that you have also reported.
19:52How many times have we seen educational institution management or the principal or those in charge actually being booked, penalized and punished?
20:03Very, very rarely.
20:04You cannot even count on your fingers.
20:07That means the state has not been keeping track of these things.
20:13The state is not monitoring.
20:14And let us also keep in mind that all educational institutions have some kind of political patronage, a lot of power and influence and connections.
20:25And that is why police also might find it very difficult to register cases.
20:30But everything said and done, we are a deeply patriarchal society.
20:33We do not make space for any of our girls and our children to come out and talk.
20:38We do not, as a community and family also, give that courage to our children to say, come out and speak about it.
20:46Because you are the brave one.
20:47We never do that.
20:49We always try and place the blame on the vulnerable victims where they have not had a choice.
20:54They are not in a position of power.
20:56They are very vulnerable.
20:58And these people make use of that vulnerability.
21:01Yeah.
21:02Partha is also with us.
21:03Partha, what shocked me and disgusted me, frankly, the most about the story is the fact that this was not happening in some back of the beyond village in Rajasthan or Haryana or Madhya Pradesh or someplace.
21:14This happened in Delhi.
21:15See, this was happening right under our nose.
21:19This was patched in with an educational institution.
21:23He figured out in Delhi, not many people are coming to this ashram of his.
21:27So he will go to an institute, affiliate his name.
21:31And it's just, I don't even know.
21:34Is there a way to, is there a way to sort of get down on these people and understand why?
21:39Is there time that we question the institute as much as we question the Baba here?
21:46You see, the case, the concept here is actually we are lacking safe spaces.
21:55When we talk about hostels, educational institutions, you were rightly, you have mentioned that these institutions, they are imparting, they are open and without any regulation.
22:08Most of them are without any regulations where children are staying, specifically in hostels.
22:13You see, when we are working with child rights, child rights and protection, the JJ Act is there for the children below the age of 18 and JJ Act has mandated that all the institutions, child care institutions must be registered under JJ Act.
22:29But there is, all the hostels are out of the purview of JJ Act.
22:35So what is happening?
22:36There is no mandatory audits are there.
22:40Nobody is going and checking how these institutions are managing themselves.
22:46What is the situation of the children over there?
22:49And, you know, when anybody who is studying, they are not so well equipped to express themselves also.
22:57And maybe children who comes to these type of institutions, they have their own baggage.
23:03Maybe they are from very underprivileged classes.
23:06So they are afraid to speak out.
23:10They are afraid to speak out.
23:12That is exactly my point.
23:13But Partha, I was talking to Kiran Bedi a little while ago and she seems to believe that girls are to be blamed as much.
23:18She seems to believe that we should be asking them if they have benefited in some way.
23:23She seems to believe that why did it take so long for them to come out.
23:26I am finding that argument a little disturbing, to be honest.
23:28Yes, yes.
23:30Actually, here in this type of institute also, I would like to add that we as a community, as a society,
23:38also need to come out of blind faith, first of all, and go for respected and accountable transparency.
23:50Sometimes what is happening in this type of institutions,
23:53they are taking the advantage of the faith that people puts in them.
23:59And the children become the most vulnerable.
24:03So here we have to ensure that as a community, as a society, also we need to ensure that wherever we are putting our children,
24:12there should be a transparent accountability of whoever is involved.
24:17And that's why we always promote that safeguarding policies should be in place for every organization.
24:25Yeah, but how much of it is really followed, Partha?
24:28How much of it is really sort of seen on ground?
24:31You know, Brinda, I've come in on this point, you know.
24:34Exactly.
24:35How much it is followed?
24:37All of this was accessible on his WhatsApp chat.
24:40All of these chats are now available with the police.
24:44He was doing it with no fear of law.
24:48He was clearly doing it for years ago.
24:52This is perhaps the tip of the iceberg.
24:54He must have been part of so many other institutes that we don't even know of.
24:58So many other places where he's met girls, where he's promised jobs or education or travel or anything,
25:04luring them with just any kind of freedom in the name of assault.
25:12So how do we even get down to people like these?
25:16Because like I said, there is no confidence left that the law will take these people to justice,
25:23that the law will actually punish them.
25:26Yes, yes.
25:27That is another part.
25:28Let Brinda respond, please.
25:30Let Brinda respond.
25:31At the end of the day, it is the management and the institution that must be held most accountable
25:37because they are the ones who are extending that confidence and trust to the parents
25:42to say that your children are safe with us.
25:45And if there is management and institutions are not held accountable,
25:49you cannot, you know, unfair, it's unfair and incorrect to place the burden on the children
25:54and say, why haven't you reported?
25:55Why did you take so long?
25:57We adult women ourselves find it so difficult to report even the smallest of sexual harassment
26:02on the street.
26:04How will the children talk about it?
26:06Because as a society, we don't talk about these things and we place the burden on the victim
26:12and the survivor.
26:13So it is very difficult for us to all the time come forward.
26:17But that said, there are laws and there are policies and guidelines which the state is not monitoring.
26:23Every institution is supposed to have a child protection policy.
26:27Do they have it?
26:27Why don't they have it?
26:29It's supposed to have councillors.
26:30Are the councillors there open, neutral and not intimidated by any powers that be in the institution
26:37so that children can come and talk to them?
26:39These are all things that I will hold the state accountable for and all the duty bearers.
26:45Yeah.
26:46Well, I must say that this is just one of the cases and I'm sure not the last we've heard.
26:51And to anybody else, I can only say and perhaps end this segment on that note, if you know
26:57of someone who's facing any kind of coercive sort of coaxed into a situation like this,
27:04if you are yourself being coaxed into a compromising position, please speak up.
27:09Please get in touch with people, talk about it, post about it, get help because this is
27:14no way to live.
27:16This is and we've got to unmask them.
27:18You don't need to be afraid.
27:19We need to expose all of them.
27:21That's what's important.
27:22So please, if anybody is watching right now and can even take an iota of inspiration, please do.
27:28Whatever little can be done, will be done and you need to get out of that web.
27:31We'll take a quick break on that note.
27:33Thank you, Brinda and Partha for joining us with the very latest on that.
27:36It's health o'clock now and parents who constantly give cuffs it ups to kids.
27:41Well, this next story is for you.
27:43Two children have died, one in Sikhar, one in Bharatpur, both in the state of Rajasthan,
27:49both after taking a government-supplied cough syrup containing dextromethorphan hydrobromide.
27:55You'll hear that word a lot today.
27:56In Sikhar, what happened?
27:58It was a five-year-old who had developed a regular cough.
28:01His mother took him to the nearby CHC under the state government's free medicine scheme.
28:06He was prescribed a syrup and given a dose at 11.30 p.m.
28:10Around 3.30 in the morning, he started getting hiccups and by morning, he did not wake up.
28:16In the hospital, when he was taken, he was declared dead.
28:20In Bharatpur, a three-year-old, Gagan, was also given the same syrup at a government health center.
28:26Within hours, he became unconscious.
28:28His heartbeat slowed and he was though rushed to the hospital nearby on a ventilator,
28:33but it was too late. He didn't make it as well.
28:37Shockingly, even the community health officer who tested the syrup on himself
28:42after having given it to the child on hearing these complaints that were coming in,
28:46he also fell ill.
28:48Now, after these reports, the Rajasthan government has banned this specific batch of syrup
28:52and ordered an investigation.
28:54All government hospitals have been told to stop its supply and distribution.
28:58But that leaves a more basic, urgent question.
29:01What exactly is this dextromethorphan hydrobromide?
29:06And do your kids really need it?
29:09This is generally called DM.
29:11If you pick up a cough syrup bottle at home, pick it up, see its ingredient list,
29:14you'll probably see the word DM mentioned in it.
29:17That's what it is.
29:18It is one of the most common ingredients in the over-the-counter cough syrup
29:21that all of us end up going for.
29:23It's a cough suppressant.
29:25It works by acting on the brain's cough center to reduce the urge to cough,
29:31mainly when you have a dry cough, a hacking cough that doesn't really produce any mucus,
29:35doesn't have phlegm.
29:37Now, chemically, it's a salt of the dextromethorphan,
29:42which makes it easier to dissolve in the liquid medicines.
29:45That's why it's very commonly used.
29:47You'll find DM in popular Indian brands, brands like Benadryl, Corex, Escorex, Cofol.
29:55Most of these are available over-the-counter.
29:57No prescription even needed.
29:59And that's part of the problem as well.
30:02Now, what's the world regulators really saying on this story?
30:05In 2007, the US FDA had issued a public warning saying,
30:09do not use cough and cold medications with any form of DM in it in children under two years.
30:15The risk, they pointed out, was serious side effects like hallucinations,
30:20slowed breathing, even death if the dose was too high.
30:24Later, the FDA expanded that warning to children under four, do not have DM.
30:29The CDC went a step further.
30:31It guided, and I quote there, it said,
30:33cough and cold medicines are not safe or even effective in children younger than six years
30:39and should never be given to infants younger than two.
30:42The American Academy of Pediatricians, they also agree,
30:46they are urging parents to not give cough syrups to children under six
30:49because they simply don't work well and can cause serious harm.
30:53But despite all of this,
30:56in India, many of these syrups are still sold freely,
31:00over-the-counter, given to young kids without medical guidance.
31:04Often, when even the doctor is telling you not to give, we end up giving.
31:10So yes, the system is trying to respond,
31:12but the deaths in Rajasthan raise the same old concern really on cough syrups.
31:18Do our kids really need cough syrups?
31:21Now, most coughs in children, especially under six,
31:24they are viral, they are self-limiting, and they don't require medication.
31:28Giving them strong medication doesn't really help much.
31:32It can actually do more harm,
31:34especially when the product is contaminated or misused,
31:37which is clearly the matter in this case.
31:40So maybe it's also, after the story, don't panic.
31:43Instead of asking which cough syrup to give,
31:46the question you should be asking is,
31:48do we really need a cough syrup?
31:50Again, this is all information that we have gathered
31:53after speaking to the country's best pediatricians,
31:55but ask your pediatrician what is his advice on the matter.
31:59But then the question here is very simple.
32:01In the case of these deaths, it was clearly a matter of adulteration.
32:07The cough syrups, they obviously have a controversial past.
32:10They continue to be debated.
32:11At the moment, this is the case of the company in question
32:15that we are flagging on your screen right now.
32:18It's called K. Sons Pharma.
32:21And after doing a bit of gigging,
32:23sort of digging around on this matter,
32:25we learned that they are in fact repeat offenders.
32:28Documents which have been reviewed by India today,
32:32they show very clearly that this Jaipur-based drug maker
32:35supplied substandard drugs to government hospitals in Rajasthan
32:39at least at two occasions earlier
32:41and was also penalized once in 2023
32:45and then in February of 2025 for violation in the Drugs Act.
32:51But despite that, it continues to be used for the poorest of poor in the country
32:57in the most inaccessible places,
33:01in the places where the education on health,
33:05on medicine is very, very poor
33:07and they continue to take lives.
33:10Let me quickly cut across on the story to our reporter
33:13who is actually tracking all the story
33:16and tracking all the latest on the story as well.
33:21Alright, Sharad is Vida.
33:26Sharad, हमें थोड़ा बताएंगे,
33:28हमने अब वो पेपर्स देखे हैं,
33:29जिसमें K. Sons Pharma को बोला गया है,
33:33एक बार नहीं, दो बार,
33:352023 में और 2025 फेबुरी में भी,
33:39कि इनके जो बैच निकले थे,
33:41कफसरफ्स के,
33:42वो अडल्टरेटिट थे,
33:43वो मैच नहीं कर पाई standards,
33:44लेकिन उसके बाद भी,
33:46वो इन अस्पतालों में क्या कर रहे थे,
33:48क्यों ये बैच जिस निकले हैं?
33:54आस्वनल, देखे,
33:55दो दिन से जो मैं लगातार,
33:56इसके जांच परताल में लगा हुआ हूँ,
33:59मेरी समझ में आया है,
34:00कि ये फैक्टरी मालिक,
34:01कंपनी मालिक जो है,
34:03विंद्र कुमार गुपता और जो यहां ड्रग कंट्रोलर है,
34:06उनकी अच्छी खासी साथ गाट है इस पूरे मामले में,
34:10ये बहुत अच्छे धंसे को जानते हैं,
34:12जो फैक्टरी विजिट की मैंने,
34:14उस फैक्टरी को विजिट करने के बाद ऐसा लगा नहीं,
34:17कि वहाँ पर बहुत अच्छी दवाएं वहाँ मिल रही हो,
34:21वहाँ पर गाड तक बदल दिया है,
34:23तला लगा दिया है,
34:24और सब लोग चले गए हैं,
34:25जब हमने फोन पर बाद चित करने की कोशिश्की मालिक से,
34:28तो उन्हें ने कहा कि हम तीन दिन के लिए चुटी पर हैं,
34:30आप बाद में आईएगा हम आपसे बाद चित करें,
34:32उन्होंने वही पलिया दिया,
34:35जो यहाँ पर अधिकारी दे रहे हैं,
34:37कि डॉक्टरों की गलती है,
34:38उन्होंने ओवर्डोस दे दिया बच्चों को,
34:40तो हमने का ठीक है बच्चों को दे दिया,
34:42डॉक्टर पिया वो भी बेहोस हो गया,
34:44वो कैसे हो गया,
34:45दस से ज़्यादा केस आ चुके हैं,
34:46बहुत सादा तो रिपोर्टेट भी नहीं हुए,
34:48बास्वड़ा जैसे इलाकों में,
34:49तो रिपोर्टेट भी नहीं हुए हैं,
34:50देखिए, कहानी क्या हो रही एक कफ सिरब की,
34:53कि ये नशा के लिए भी,
34:55बड़ी संख्या में फार्मा कमपनियां,
34:57सप्लाई कर रही हैं,
34:59और जो ड्रग कंट्रोलर हैं,
35:01वो जाँच नहीं कर रहे हैं,
35:02अब सरकारी सप्लाई के लिए,
35:04आप देख लेजिए,
35:05सरकारी सप्लाई के लिए,
35:07दो हजार तेईस में,
35:09इसकी जाँच हुई,
35:10और एक कफ सिरब को कह दिया गया,
35:12कि अमानक है,
35:13लेकिन सरकारी सप्लाई के लिए बैन होता है,
35:15बाजार के लिए बैन नहीं होता है,
35:17ड्रग कंट्रोलर आजस्थान में बिक्री के लिए बैन नहीं करते हैं,
35:20कि वो सरकारी सप्लाई के लिए बैन करते हैं,
35:23तो एक तरह से देखा जा सकता है,
35:24कि किस तरह से यहां पर कब सिरफ के नाम पर यह गोरक दंदा कई तरह से चल दा है एक ही कंपनी जब बार बार एक दवा को गलत बना रही है तो दूसरे साल से आप क्यों इजाज़त देते हो तो करें कि नहीं नहीं हमारी डिबार का आप रूल देख लो आठ पने का कागज म�
35:54फैक्टरी बंद की है गाड तक बदल दिया है यहां पर अधिकारी बचने की कोशिश कर रहे हैं नियम कानून में उल्जा रहे हैं डॉक्टर को फंसा रहे हैं कि नहीं उसको डोस देने नहीं आया तो ऐसा लग रहा है कहीने कहीं कि यह जो चोटी-चोटी कंपनियां हैं ज
36:24तो इसको पहले से रोका जा सकता था जो बच्चे अस्पिताल में पहुंचे हैं जी के लौन में तो साथ आट दिन पहले पहुंचे चुके थे तो कहीं ने कहीं लिपा पोती कोशिश भी जाई रही जी
36:33Excellent reporting, Sharath. आपने बहुत अच्छे से समझा दिया है कि यह पूरा मामला क्या है और क्योंकि सरकार आप क्लिरली बता रहे हैं
36:42that they are hand in glove. और इसमें बच्चों की मौत हो रही है और उसके बारे में भी उनको कोई फरक नहीं पढ़ रहा है
36:47और अभी आप कहरें कि जो फार्म कंपनी के ओनर है वो भागे हुए है तो इस पर सरकार क्या करेंगी इस पर जरूर नजर लगाए रखें और हमें अपडेट जरूर बेचते रहें कि क्या हो क्या रहा है इस पूरे इस पूरे इसूपर
36:57but let's move on from this story to actually bring you another perspective this is clearly an issue of adulteration a very serious issue of adulteration which we will keep tracking but the largest story emerging from this entire you know the news that came in is also of the abuse of cough syrups that is going on all over let me bring in dr. Sanjeev Baghai he's a senior consultant paediatrician chairman at the nephron clinic and dr. Rajiv Seth is also with us
37:25dr. Sanjeev Baghai it's shocking it tears my heart that this is corruption taking away lives of young kids but let's leave that for a moment aside I was speaking to pediatricians while doing the research for the story and they said Sonal you know what even when we tell parents not to give cough syrups they go and they purchase from the chemist and they sort of give it to the child without even taking our consideration
37:51so there is a massive movement required to say that we don't need cough syrups until the age of six I just read it out in front of everybody as well from CDC to FDA to any of the credible you know bodies which are monitoring they will say cough syrups actually don't do anything wouldn't you agree
38:10good evening so two quick parts to your story one is of course is the issue of use of anti-tussips which we call as cough syrups unfortunately in India most of the cough syrups are being used rampantly even up to in some studies 87% of the prescriptions in the pediatric and infant age group contain some sort of cough syrups the second is this industry is booming
38:37uh it's already reached 1.6 billion industry and frankly speaking on the ground the attitude is no one cares the one of the most unregulated sectors of Indian health care which affects the the doctors as a medical fraternity and clinical outcomes is the chemist and the pharma and the pharma outlets which actually sell these without a prescription and without a validated prescription with regards the use on and the indications of the cough syrups cough syrups
39:07help in specific indications provided it is used in a calculated dose under medieval monitoring unfortunately when patients repeat the prescriptions and the child does not recover from one dose they tend to give a second dose at a quicker interval or they combine it with another cough syrups hoping and anticipating and praying to god that the cough may go away without actually wondering what the etiology of the cause is that means the cause
39:33with regards the contamination this is that means the contamination this is a clear breach of trust failure in system of processes failure of quality control this is the contaminant which causes acute kidney injury it causes crystals in the kidney and the children die very quickly within 36 hours
39:48but cough syrups but cough syrups require regulation they require monitoring it's not that cough syrups do not are not used at all in the pediatric age group they are used but under a particular calculated dose under medical supervision and with a follow-up check on how the child is doing
40:06okay dr rajiv say it is also with us dr say it then just taking off from what dr bagai said uh in under what circumstances would you give cough syrups at all to kids below six
40:19well uh how about i start or when should we give cough syrups beginning when the baby is just born right from newborn to one year say a period of life which is called infancy there's no indication for giving any cough syrups usually these small babies are obligate nose breathers they need nasal saline salt solutions to clean their nose and if they can be sucked out and clean majority they can be in steam as an inhalation safely
40:48and that is all they would need and only in certain situations and circumstances when the nose congestion actually travels down into the lungs leading to a reactive area disease or bronchia of this thing we need an expectorate not a suppressant even at that stage
41:05so till about two years dexamithophon which which has been listed in your listing has not been recommended by usfda it is not to be used rampantly and thing is the problem is that
41:18uh the the the children are seen not just by pediatricians they are seen by uh any any qualified or not so qualified doctors there are probably uh more uh untrained doctors around and and and there are registered medical practitioners if you go in smaller towns and cities
41:40and chitwara you've mentioned in those they don't have qualified doctors registered medical practitioners their number is more than the police force
41:49you know so essentially so many doctors so many people giving these various cough suppressants
41:56is not to be used uh dr bagai then what about stuff like ambro drill which is given very often
42:05but that's the case when you have a cough with phlegm right i just want to educate any parent watching right now any grandparent watching right now that there are different kind of coughs in the dry cough situation you don't use anything at all
42:18but if you have a wet cough in those situations what should one reach out to from what i understand amro drill s kind of things are given when you just want to loosen the phlegm is that correct
42:30i wish pediatrics and medical science was as easy that we could tell the parents what to do
42:36on on a television program but uh uh fortunately so it is not okay now on a more serious note so i think
42:45cough syrup should only be used bullet points only should be used under medical indication under advice of a qualified pediatrician
42:53uh very often adult physicians or uh gps are not as well qualified to treat children point number two
43:02the cough syrups often are coming in combinations not only of cough suppressants but very often with
43:09bronchodilators that means derivatives of salbutamol or salmeterol which are used more for wheezing and and
43:16bronchitis and other kind of indications like asthma so combination cough syrups are very dangerous because
43:22the dose calculations becomes a huge mess point number three combination of cough syrups that
43:28means very often parents tend to use two cough syrup at a time which becomes very counterproductive point
43:35number four these are calculated with regards body weight and very often children also are receiving
43:40other medications like antibiotics or fever medicine so we have to be careful of the end organ damage that
43:47means we have to take care that the liver and the kidneys are not affected with overuse of these
43:52medications again as a summary over the counter cough syrups especially in smaller children without
44:00medical supervision is pure hazardous pure hazardous let me quickly give the last uh word to the other
44:09doctor as well dr saith what would you say parents not to use cough syrups at all what about the ayurveda
44:17ones what about the ones which say which have honey and ginger in it is that to be given or that's
44:21also just not to be touched upon at all no i i would say that you if your child is having cough you need
44:28to see your doctor uh you know a cough is just a presenting symptoms for something very sinister
44:34sometimes and it could not be just due to upper respiratory or low respiratory could be other factors also
44:41and a doctor needs to clearly examine your child like i said in a small baby the nose blockage itself
44:47can lead to cough and and therefore the steam or nasal inhalational routes or or if the child gets
44:55really bronchospastic cough where you need to give a bronchodilator like salbutamol a doctor is the best
45:02person to know what the dosages are and then it is to be expect the suppressants of cough as has been
45:09used here should never be given to smaller children right and i think as a takeaway i would like to leave
45:16the audience thinking about it you know we as indians pop pills take medicines like it's you know like
45:21tic tac like gems that's not how it's supposed to work you every medicine if it helps it also has a
45:29side effect we just don't know in india it's great that we have access to great medical health care
45:33affordable health care but does not mean that we'll abuse it because that's clearly beginning
45:38to show an effect on our bodies and we got to be very careful especially in the case of kids
45:41dr say dr bagai thank you so much both for joining us on this very very important discussion
45:48all right uh let's move on to the other news that we are tracking here on five live a powerful
45:53earthquake has dropped the philippines leaving behind panic destruction and dozens dead from
45:58chaos in hotels to streets torn by tremors here's a look at the terrifying moments as they unfolded
46:06complete chaos unfolded on the streets as the ground began to shake violently people came out
46:12of the buildings gathered in open spaces while the earth trembled beneath their feet terrified
46:18residents also looked around for safety you can see those pictures over there
46:21and there was a panic as erupted inside a hotel moments after the quake struck philippines guests
46:32can be seen there screaming and running in all direction desperately trying to escape
46:41and then you see that that's a dash cam footage captured a terrifying moment as a flyover began to sway
46:47motorcyclists abandoned their bikes mid-road some seem sort of clinging tightly to the railings for
46:54support there's a massive massive shake there
46:59and in the aftermath of the disaster heartbreaking visuals showed bodies lined up across hospital
47:05corridors there lined up across there at least 69 lives lost and dozens more injured medical
47:12teams scrambled to respond the scale of the tragedy has overwhelmed facilities as families gathered in grief
47:20and in shock
47:26all right that's all we got back in at five life today but stay tuned
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