🌍 What makes an institution truly strong—and who gets to decide?
In this thought-provoking episode of Tangelic Talks, co-hosts Victoria Cornelio and Andres Tamez sit down with Professor Narnia Bohler-Muller—a leading legal scholar, governance expert, and advocate for gender equality and human rights.
As Divisional Executive at South Africa’s Human Sciences Research Council (HSRC), an admitted advocate of the High Court of South Africa, and head of delegation for Women20, Professor Bohler-Muller brings decades of experience at the intersection of law, governance, and social justice.
Together, they explore:
⚖️ The meaning of strong institutions—and why people matter more than structures
🌱 Ubuntu & ethics of care: African values shaping governance and justice
👩⚖️ How gender equality strengthens institutions and societies
📊 Turning research into social impact through evidence-based policymaking
🌍 Global South perspectives in international diplomacy
💡 Climate governance & the just transition for inclusive futures
📌 Timestamps:
00:00 Women, Care Work & Financial Vulnerability
01:55 Guest Introduction – Prof. Narnia Bohler-Muller
04:48 Human Rights, Ethics & Integrity in Governance
10:17 Strong Institutions vs. Weak Leadership
17:35 Ubuntu & Democracy in African Governance
21:26 Gender Equality, Human Rights & Global Negotiations
26:29 Priorities for Women20: Climate Justice & Care Economy
30:40 Closing Reflections
✨ About Our Guest: Professor Narnia Bohler-Muller is Divisional Executive for the Developmental, Capable, and Ethical State (DCES) at HSRC. She has represented South Africa in forums including Women20, BRICS, and the Indian Ocean Rim Association. Her work bridges law, ethics, governance, and gender equality, advancing inclusive democracies worldwide.
✨ Explore More:
🌐 Website: www.TangelicLife.org
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tangeliclife/
🐦 Twitter/X: https://x.com/Tangelic_
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/tangelic/
👍 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tangelic.org
💬 Join the Conversation: What do you think makes an institution strong—its structure, its people, or its values? Share your thoughts in the comments 👇
✅ Don’t forget to follow, like, and share to support our mission of amplifying conversations on energy, equity, and empowerment.
🌱 Support our work and help us grow: TangelicLife.org
🔖 #TangelicTalks #StrongInstitutions #ClimateGovernance #SocialJustice #GenderEquality #UbuntuLeadership #EthicalGovernance #JustTransition #ClimateJustice #GlobalSouthVoices #InclusiveDemocracy #HumanRightsForAll #GovernanceMatters #CareEconomy #WomenInLeadership #PolicyForChange #CorruptionFreeFuture #EvidenceBasedPolicy #ClimateEquity #AfricanLeadership #DemocracyInAction #JusticeAndEquity #SustainableGovernance
In this thought-provoking episode of Tangelic Talks, co-hosts Victoria Cornelio and Andres Tamez sit down with Professor Narnia Bohler-Muller—a leading legal scholar, governance expert, and advocate for gender equality and human rights.
As Divisional Executive at South Africa’s Human Sciences Research Council (HSRC), an admitted advocate of the High Court of South Africa, and head of delegation for Women20, Professor Bohler-Muller brings decades of experience at the intersection of law, governance, and social justice.
Together, they explore:
⚖️ The meaning of strong institutions—and why people matter more than structures
🌱 Ubuntu & ethics of care: African values shaping governance and justice
👩⚖️ How gender equality strengthens institutions and societies
📊 Turning research into social impact through evidence-based policymaking
🌍 Global South perspectives in international diplomacy
💡 Climate governance & the just transition for inclusive futures
📌 Timestamps:
00:00 Women, Care Work & Financial Vulnerability
01:55 Guest Introduction – Prof. Narnia Bohler-Muller
04:48 Human Rights, Ethics & Integrity in Governance
10:17 Strong Institutions vs. Weak Leadership
17:35 Ubuntu & Democracy in African Governance
21:26 Gender Equality, Human Rights & Global Negotiations
26:29 Priorities for Women20: Climate Justice & Care Economy
30:40 Closing Reflections
✨ About Our Guest: Professor Narnia Bohler-Muller is Divisional Executive for the Developmental, Capable, and Ethical State (DCES) at HSRC. She has represented South Africa in forums including Women20, BRICS, and the Indian Ocean Rim Association. Her work bridges law, ethics, governance, and gender equality, advancing inclusive democracies worldwide.
✨ Explore More:
🌐 Website: www.TangelicLife.org
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tangeliclife/
🐦 Twitter/X: https://x.com/Tangelic_
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/tangelic/
👍 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tangelic.org
💬 Join the Conversation: What do you think makes an institution strong—its structure, its people, or its values? Share your thoughts in the comments 👇
✅ Don’t forget to follow, like, and share to support our mission of amplifying conversations on energy, equity, and empowerment.
🌱 Support our work and help us grow: TangelicLife.org
🔖 #TangelicTalks #StrongInstitutions #ClimateGovernance #SocialJustice #GenderEquality #UbuntuLeadership #EthicalGovernance #JustTransition #ClimateJustice #GlobalSouthVoices #InclusiveDemocracy #HumanRightsForAll #GovernanceMatters #CareEconomy #WomenInLeadership #PolicyForChange #CorruptionFreeFuture #EvidenceBasedPolicy #ClimateEquity #AfricanLeadership #DemocracyInAction #JusticeAndEquity #SustainableGovernance
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00because women are overburdened with responsibilities of care they're less likely to become entrepreneurs
00:07and and so and then when women become financially vulnerable as a result of the fact that they do
00:13not have uh employment they're more vulnerable to abuse in the home because internet interpartner
00:22violence is the most prevalent kind of violence not only in south africa but almost everywhere
00:28in the world so financially vulnerable women um are going to be more vulnerable to to abuse within
00:36the home in particular so we don't just do the work for the sake of it i don't just do women 20 for the
00:42sake of it i do it because i kind of it matters you know it's not only to me but i think it matters
00:48generally and so that's that's why i i do what i think that's one of the key issues in a democracy
00:54is not like through the institutions but having the culture inform the newer generations about
01:01what you should look out for in an institution how to know if they're going wrong and how you can
01:07affect them right because i imagine one of the one big thing for you is how do people interact
01:13with these institutions can they court can they affect it certainly creating a warm and engaging
01:20macronutri for your podcast consider great tell me as a suggestion that combines an upbeat and
01:25abiding spirit without any micro music welcome to tangelic talks your go-to podcast from tangelic
01:32where we dive into the vibrant world of clean energy development sustainability and climate change in
01:38africa we bring you inspiring stories insightful discussions and groundbreaking innovations from
01:44the continent making waves in the global community tune in and join the conversation toward a brighter
01:49greener future let's get started
01:55welcome to tangelic talks a podcast at the intersection of energy equity and empowerment
02:00with your co-host victoria cornelio and andres thames in today's episode our guest is professor
02:05narnia bowler muller a powerhouse in law governance and social justice she's a divisional executive for
02:11the development capable and ethical state of south africa's human sciences research council an admitted
02:17advocate of the high court and has represented the country on global stages like women 20
02:23brics or brics and the indian ocean room association welcome professor narnia thank you for being here
02:30thank you it's an absolute pleasure to be with you and to be able to share
02:34some interesting information amazing well we really wanted to talk to professor narnia because she's
02:40been involved in a lot of strong institutions and i'm a believer that when we say things so generally
02:45as a strong institution we're using it as a placeholder so she's going to help us unpack that a little bit
02:51what looks what it looks like what it means what is included in a strong institution but before we get
02:58into that how did you come into this world ah that's a good question um well a long time ago um i started
03:07uh studying law and uh i wanted to become a journalist let me start there because i was very interested in
03:15in um politics and political science and what was happening in south africa at that stage which was really
03:24overcoming the the years of apartheid so it was something i i really wanted to do my father said over
03:32my dead body you're not going to be a journalist you won't make enough money and he got me going to study
03:37law um so that's where it all started everything came from a legal perspective and as i moved on with
03:45my law degrees into my um doctorate of law lld i started focusing more on the philosophy of things
03:55and and law itself you know what the what the origins of law are what the law means what it doesn't
04:01mean what the limitations of the law are and that kind of brings you into the whole issue of of
04:08institutions as you were saying as a as a placeholder because the law itself is a kind of an institution
04:15so from there uh i became more in um involved in and interested in doing research uh as you know
04:23providing evidence to policy makers basically to make sure that we are going to be um adopting sound
04:29policies for people on the ground and that can only really be done in my view through research um and
04:38i went into the the research side of things away from teaching law per se and ended up at the human
04:46sciences research council where we do exactly what i'm interested in doing you know the interface
04:51um that i'm working at now where we're actually able to um present evidence to decision makers around the
05:01kinds of laws and policies that they're interested in adopting they need not listen to us um but we do it
05:10anyway um and we do that at numerous different levels so of course nationally we work with our national
05:17government um and the state in general more generally and we then i also work um in the
05:25international space as you've mentioned with at the moment women 20 i'm the head of delegation of
05:32women 20 for south africa under south africa's presidency but in the past also bricks and the indian
05:39ocean room association very interesting multilateral spaces that is so cool and your career has bridged
05:46academia law governance international diplomacy there's so many rooms and institutions that
05:52you've been a part of so what would you say is a guiding principle that has shaped your journey how
05:57have you moved through these spaces i think um a belief a belief in ethics and integrity um in in
06:06everything that i do um so whichever area i'm working in whichever institution i'm at there are certain
06:16principles that i carry with me um and really around fairness objectivity justice transparency accountability
06:24all of the things that i believe are necessary for good governance um and so that's that's really what
06:31i carry the the whole issue of human rights is really central to what i do and it does shape almost
06:40everything that i do i try to bring it into the spaces that i'm in it's not necessarily um something
06:48that that shapes institutions but i think should shape institutions issues of human rights and social
06:54justice and of course robust democracy i agree and what do you mean when you say ethical practices so what
07:01does ethics look like for example in your role at the human sciences research council well i mean there's
07:07there's different kinds of ethics so we follow very um strong research ethics protocols uh we have an
07:14you know so we have that we have an an ethics board and everything that we do goes through the ethics
07:19board and they say okay everything's on in line and you can proceed with whatever research that you do
07:26um so there's that but there's also a way of living your life i think and that that's what i'm thinking
07:33about when i'm thinking about ethical or normative uh or value-based uh contributions to to wherever you
07:42are and whatever you are doing so as you know as i've mentioned i think it's just a way of living your
07:48life that doesn't harm others i think very important that doesn't cause harm but also where you try to help
07:57as much as possible to shed light on issues um to use whatever talents you have for the betterment of
08:05public good i mean human sciences research council's motto is a social science that makes a difference
08:12um and so we don't just do the work for the sake of it i don't just do women 20 for the sake of it i do
08:19it because i kind of it matters you know it's not only to me but i think it matters generally and so
08:25that's that's why i i do what i do i love that and i think that's really important because a lot
08:31of people you know there is something there about the debate between are we just selfish
08:37doing good or are we doing good and that makes us feel good right do you think ethics are
08:44i don't what's the word like natural or intrinsic to humans is it something that we can debate when
08:51something is ethical what's the guideline i think it's very debatable i really do um you know it's
08:59it's not necessarily morality in your traditional sense of the word so it's not necessarily about
09:06religion even um look i'm not sure if people are uh ethical by nature or not um it's difficult to tell
09:15in the world that we're living in today um but i think that hopefully people do embrace a certain
09:21kind of um care i guess you know in my feminist work i talk a lot about the ethic of care so um in in
09:30that sense it's not only about your sense of justice but your sense about of responsibility towards others
09:37and towards the planet so it's it's something that i guess comes from within you yes but it is also
09:46instilled it's also structural and systemic in nature how you brought up the kind of communities that you
09:52belong to the kind of society you want so i think in south africa it's very unique because you know we
09:59went through this transition to democracy and we really kind of started um understanding the importance
10:08of equality of values dignity um the way that you treat and respect other people so it became a kind
10:16of you know in a way of life for many of us although not for all of us i i must admit yeah that makes
10:22sense and then that takes us into ethics within an institution right you talked about the research
10:28council having a strong set of guidelines of what makes ethical research but our institutions can
10:35we assume institutions like this are ethical because they have a good guideline or is it the people
10:40that make them strong institutions it's definitely the people that make them strong institutions i think
10:46i've lived long enough and been in enough institutions um to be able to say that i mean i'm just thinking
10:53about um the kinds of situations that we're coming across in in south africa at the moment
10:58around corruption so you could be in an institution that's really strong like our auditor general or
11:06our office of public office of the public protector the institution is solid it's a constitutionally
11:13grounded institution but if people come into it wanting to take advantage um wanting to to benefit from it
11:22for their own purposes then that institution is weakened and that's happened a lot in south africa
11:30fortunately our institutions are strong enough to survive that kind of thing but it does create a
11:37massive risk so it's it is about the people it's not about the institutions themselves and some people
11:44have tried to collapse institutions and haven't managed to do so and others have collapsed institutions and
11:51those institutions are still recovering you you you made this uh point about strong institutions right
11:58and what is is there a difference between an institution that's strong because it has
12:04like like like the institutions you mentioned because they have enforcement they're backed by the
12:09government they're backed by a constitutional framework right and where does where do you separate the
12:16strength from the from being overbearing is there a line that that can be crossed where it's serving
12:24it's it's not serving that this institute is strong but it's not serving i think that's that's a good way
12:30of putting it um it is a good way of putting it and um again it's it's not it's not a um a black and
12:37white issue they're gray areas with almost everything that we speak about i think that democracy is a strong
12:45institution in and of itself so it's not only about the constitution but it's about the the kind of
12:54constitution that you're working with and therefore the kind of institutions that arise from that
13:00constitution that is underlined by values dignity from the foundational foundational yes so and these
13:10institutions need to be vibrant they need to fulfill a specific kind of democratic um duty towards the
13:18people so you can see there that it's not an authoritarian type of institution that we're talking
13:26about it's something that's supposed to be rooted in the common good it's supposed to be rooted in a
13:31concept of respect for human rights and respect for freedom and dignity
13:38so it's it's not only about doing things for the sake of it or doing things to regulate but rather
13:45doing things for a particular purpose and so that purpose would then determine whether you're serving
13:52the people whether in my mind you are a strong institution whether or you're you belong to an
14:01institution that is merely there to serve the interests of the powerful and how do we break down an
14:06institution what is an institution i think that's important to clarify because we've said democracy
14:12is one and this other one so how do we where does this scale come in when we talk about an institution
14:18i think that i mean different people use different language depending on the discipline that you're coming
14:24from um so i'm guessing what we're talking about here is institutions of governance so when i speak about the
14:32institution of democracy that's not necessarily what we're talking about right now um i think that we're
14:40talking more about um rigid and fluid spaces uh that work towards principles of good governance or um you
14:49know state building um for instance so those kinds of institutions would be multiple um i mean you get
14:58private institutions that are profit uh you know seeking you get governing government institutions that
15:05are also profit seeking in a sense we have state-owned enterprises so they're everywhere um and they're really
15:13uh systems that determine the functioning of your society and that could be from your local local level
15:22grassroots level um to your cooperatives uh agricultural cooperatives all the way to the president's office
15:30okay and then there's a conversation about governance there and ethical governance when it comes to these
15:36institutions are there any practical steps or guidelines that we can see or someone who wants to break into
15:44this phase that they should be looking out for so they can survey if they're entering an institution that
15:49is grounded in these ethical practices i think um you know they're the king principles of good governance um
15:57that exist and i think that's a very good guideline um when it comes to the way in which institutions
16:04should be governed and it's around you know how um how boards are established for instance i mean
16:12this is an area where a lot of corruption happens and there's a lot of greed so you have to see how the
16:19boards of those organizations those institutions are constituted um and you need to look at the
16:28would these be the the sort of part of the institution that's vulnerable to be lobbied to or to be
16:33yes absolutely okay um if i can give an example of my own institution so um we are what we call in
16:43south africa an organ of state so uh we we are um perceived in some instances as as serving government's
16:54interests however we have an independent board and that board's independence is protected
17:00so through uh rules regulations um you know conventions whatever the case may be they need
17:08to be there to establish the independence of that group of people who are responsible for the
17:16governance of the organization and then the independence of the organization itself towards the board
17:24so i think that it is important to have structures in place for something like this because otherwise it
17:32become it does become vulnerable to manipulation not only political manipulation but in manipulation by
17:39private interests as well so when we had the the zondo commission anti-corruption commission in south
17:46africa that came up a lot um it was really around how people manipulate systems in order to and for themselves
17:56and their friends and families to benefit so those systems need to be strong in order to prevent manipulation
18:03but coming back what you to what you said before people need to be strong enough to resist yeah it all ties together i can imagine
18:13and then as that's where like education comes in right i would guess i think yeah through education
18:20not necessarily in the traditional sense of the word either but perhaps more of an awareness of how things
18:27work um and conscious public consciousness because education also is very susceptible to being
18:34yeah yes it is without a doubt so yeah it's it's more along the lines of just being
18:42responsible citizen i guess over and above everything else i think that's one of the key issues in a
18:48democracy is not like through the institutions but having the culture inform the newer generations
18:55about what you should look out for in an institution how to know if they're going wrong and how you can
19:02affect them right because i imagine one of the one big thing for you is how do people interact with
19:07these institutions can they court can they affect it can can be should people be able to affect these
19:13institutions it is it is important for whoever is in these institutions to have a common vision
19:22um you know and if if there isn't that common vision of whatever you want to do social science it
19:27makes a difference if you don't have that common vision things can go very wrong so you have to have some
19:34kind of guiding star uh that that you can look at when things start to go wrong within your institution
19:42when you are sensing um cronyism or corruption or bullying for that matter you have to keep saying
19:50does this align with the values of the constitution of the constitution but actually quite simply the
19:56values of the institution itself um and you cannot really have any form of governance without it being
20:03value based in my view um but maybe we're looking at it from a very i mean we're looking at it from
20:10a very western perspective in some ways um but at the same time i mean we we have very strong african
20:16values that speak to this as well um and the one is ubuntu so i am because you are and you are because i am
20:24so no we are in interconnected interrelated and so working for your in your own interest is not always working
20:32in the interests of the community that you serve so that the you know those kinds of things can be
20:39can can inform how you see things and how you see things going and it sounds like you're touching on
20:45something cultural where there is uh understanding in certain cultures communities that this is what
20:52our value system looks like this is why we do things the way that we do you know we all share this insight
20:58but then why do so many countries struggle to translate that into good governance why is there still
21:05these you know from your research what are the biggest barriers that you've seen that make it so hard
21:11i think that um ideology has a lot to do with it um so you know the the ideological bent of your society so
21:21you get your sort of hyper liberal um societies where you know private interests are really outweighing
21:29absolutely everything else um and then you get your more let's say social welfare or socialist type
21:35societies where um people are uh aware of the fact that poverty and inequality are a blight on society
21:44um and therefore that measures need to be taken to protect the vulnerable so you know you get different
21:51kinds of overriding it's it sounds strange but you do get different kinds of overriding ideologies
21:57within states and that would then determine um how uh morality and values are constructed
22:06no that makes sense and in your research you mentioned earlier that you look into gender equality and
22:11human rights so how does that fit into this larger conversation about strong institutions and good
22:17governance well you know if if you are in an institution that is infringing anybody's rights
22:24or allowing those rights to be infringed by for example not dealing with sexual abuse and sexual harassment
22:33then it's it's it's a it's an institution that is not serving its purpose in in my view so um if if women
22:44are being alienated within that context let's look at institutions more broadly um if if women are being
22:53oppressed within any kind of structure then there's something severely wrong with it because
23:02of the fact that disempowered women lead to disempowered societies so there must be some way of
23:12people start beginning to understand that women's empowerment is good for us
23:19yeah and then in the broader context of international institutions where cultural norms or beliefs might
23:26be very different some things might be more permissive than others and then you know there's a morality
23:31ethical question about how much do you infringe on it or do you just back down and you treat things
23:40based on the local context like how do you balance that when it comes to international institutions
23:46it's the the most difficult part of everything that i do is in the international space within
23:53multilateralism um because we i mean women 20 for instance is consensus based so we have 20 well we
24:03have 19 countries the european union and the african union all in one space and there are a lot of
24:09differences to navigate in these spaces and that's why i was talking about societal ideology or state
24:16ideologies because you can see it coming through in the negotiations the amazing thing for me is that
24:24for 10 years now women 20 has reached consensus on a communique and released that communique with
24:33recommendations to the leader annually so despite all of the differences that we have we can come to an
24:42agreement about some of the fundamental issues and this is this is really to me quite miraculous because
24:50it's it shows you that there is something there there's a core that matters to everybody so we started
24:58off for example no we can only look at in economic issues so you must give women more jobs okay so everybody
25:05can kind of stomach the fact that you must give women more jobs then it was a matter of women in leadership
25:11so that was pushing it a little bit further um and and so we've gone and now we're in a situation where
25:17we even looking at gender-based violence and femicide is an economic issue you know and and and that is
25:24that was resisted um for for many years saying gender-based violence violence against women has nothing to
25:31do with the economy but if you are abusing women they become unproductive if you want to put it in economic terms
25:38they become unproductive and your economy loses so those kinds of things have been evolving over time
25:45and and we're finding one another but it's not an easy process it takes a lot of hard work and you have
25:53to put aside some of your own personal views to work for what one could probably call the international
26:01common good so you know if if one of the countries doesn't want to hear the terms uh you know sexual
26:09and reproductive sexual health and reproductive rights then you have to find some other way of
26:15expressing it for sure and it sounds like there's a more holistic approach as well as not seeing issues
26:20in a silo but more like this thing leads to this thing and these two issues are connected so we can tackle
26:26one to fix the other almost so as head of the delegation of for w20 south africa this year what
26:34priorities are you bringing to the global table some of the more unique priorities i suppose um you know
26:41there was a little bit of a pushback around um the south african presidency's priorities so they were
26:48sort of um you know solidarity quality and sustainability uh but you know south africa stood its ground
26:56um in the g20 space and so we are encompassing a lot of that in the work that we do as as women 20. so
27:04we're looking at issues of climate justice the environment and sustainability so we're specifically
27:10looking at that issue um and the way in which climate change and environmental degradation affect women
27:18but not only the vulnerability of women but also the way in which women can reshape the agenda
27:25around these issues we're also looking at the digital divide and tech facility facilitated gender
27:31based violence and the care economy you know most of women's time is spent caring for others i don't
27:39even think that's a generalization i think it applies in every country in the world um and so you
27:45know women spend a lot of their time caring and and how can we calculate this in terms of the economic
27:52participation um that that is is happening um the contributions towards the economy that are
27:59invisible that are not being recognized we're also looking at gender-based violence and femicide
28:06as a scourge not only in south africa but south africa and brazil for instance um have serious
28:12problems with that and entrepreneurship and financial inclusion which is one of the more
28:18more um traditional areas uh and then we're also looking at health equity for women and girls you've
28:25got a full agenda there that's very exciting and do you see these topics kind of interacting with each
28:32other as well as you're researching and proposing things right yeah without a doubt um there there are a lot
28:39of intersections um the care economy is an example so um for instance uh because women are overburdened
28:50with responsibilities of care they're less likely to become entrepreneurs and and so and then when
28:57women become financially vulnerable as a result of the fact that they do not have uh employment they're
29:05more vulnerable to abuse in the home because internet interpartner violence is the most um prevalent kind
29:13of violence not only in south africa but almost everywhere in the world so financially vulnerable women um are
29:21going to be more vulnerable to to abuse within the home in particular so all of those things kind of fit
29:28together and create a picture of you know the intersections that that occur as well as the way in
29:36which these things influence women differently so it's race class gender um all of those kinds of things
29:43that that work together to determine um a woman's status in society that intersectionality of it all
29:51and i guess to close off this episode if you could leave our audience with one action
29:57to help strengthen whether it is institutions democracy social justice in general what would it be
30:02i think it's um to be aware of your position in society um your own privilege and your own failures
30:17um and if we become more self-aware we become more responsive to others and i think that's
30:24something that is probably a difficult lesson uh to learn but in doing that in becoming more
30:31self-aware you you're able to see how you're interacting within spaces within communities
30:38institutions and societies that might be harmful to others well we're going to stay on for a bit longer
30:44talking a bit more about strong institutions policy and research and making them happen but thank you so
30:50much professor narnia for joining us you can check out the blog at tangeliclife.org and we'll catch you
30:56guys on the next one thank you
31:05let's talk power let's talk change for rural lights to brighter days equity rising voices strong we're
31:15building tomorrow we're building tomorrow where we all belong
31:19tangelic talks energy equity pride in power in the world side by side a spark becomes a fire a vision
31:28that's true together we rise it starts with you
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