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Peston on Sunday - Season 11 Episode 25
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01:39Hina's child sex abuse by grooming gans have been misguided
01:44The biggest failure though has been by his choice not cock up
01:48Starmer has repeatedly said he isn't interested in doing the vision thing
01:52Of telling a simple powerful story about the better Britain he wants to create
01:57That's provided a golden opportunity for the great communicator of this age
02:02Nigel Farage who has that knack of reflecting back to millions of citizens
02:07Their grievances about immigration or living standards or crime or diversity policies
02:13Finally though and thanks to Farage we may have had a glimpse of an authentic
02:17And even passionate Starmer in his decision to reframe the purpose of his government
02:23As the demolition of reform which he describes as the battle of this era
02:28It's not without risks
02:30His denigration of Farage's determination to expel hundreds of thousands of migrants
02:35Who've lived and worked here for years as immoral and racist
02:39This sounds to many Farage supporters as a denigration of them as racist
02:44If they take umbrage they'll never vote for Starmer's Labour
02:47But almost no one will vote for Labour if he can't in simple language
02:52Describe the point of his government
02:55And perhaps Farage has helped supply Starmer with much needed ambition and mojo
03:02This therefore is a convenient point to bring in Pippa in Liverpool
03:06Pippa tell us what we can expect from the PM's speech tomorrow
03:09Well Robert tonight the Prime Minister is thinking about what big messages he wants to land with the public in that speech
03:17The battle with reform and the populist right
03:20But also trying to deliver a more hopeful tone on the economy despite the bleak outlook
03:25And while his main focus is on the public
03:28Given his rocky start he's also going to have to face down his internal critics
03:32I spoke to Andy Burnham earlier
03:34Doesn't look like there's going to be an imminent challenge
03:36But it does give the Labour Party an idea of what an alternative leader might look like
03:41So Keir Starmer will want to show the party tomorrow that he is still their man
03:47Thanks so much Pippa
03:51Now the battle between Labour and reform has become all out war
03:55Over the best approach to respond to concerns about immigration
03:59As I already mentioned Starmer has rediscovered why he's Prime Minister
04:02By laying into reforms proposed abolition of migrants rights
04:06After five years to apply for indefinite leave to remain in the country
04:11Under reforms plans they would have to reapply to stay here every five years
04:19And there would be much more onerous conditions for remaining
04:23Including a salary threshold thought to be around £60,000
04:26This would bring the prospect of spouses and vulnerable people being expelled
04:31Which Starmer has called racist
04:33But Labour too is making it much harder for economic migrants to stay here
04:39The qualification time for permanent settlement would be double to ten years
04:42Applicants would have to speak English fluently
04:44They couldn't be living on benefits
04:46And they would have to give back to their communities by volunteering
04:51Starmer may insist that Labour's clampdown would be less severe than reforms
04:55But the Home Secretary Shibana Mahmood
04:57Let no one in any doubt today that many Labour supporters
05:00Will be made uncomfortable by her plans
05:03So what does polling show about why all parties
05:08Including the Tories are competing to be the toughest on migration
05:12A survey done by Merlin Strategy breaks down different voters
05:16By whether they are socially and economically conservative or liberal
05:20What's striking is that only two groups of voters
05:24Those down here are currently in favour of relatively high levels of immigration
05:29Or indeed measures to combat climate change
05:33They are those who still define themselves as Labour supporters
05:37They're a dwindling bunch
05:38And those who have switched their allegiance to so-called more progressive parties
05:41Like the Lib Dems and Greens
05:43This explains why Mahmood is trying to make Labour credible
05:46On restricting immigration numbers
05:49Because she wants all these people up here to give Labour a hearing
05:53But that may not be a rational policy
05:55Because this seemingly small green dot down here
05:59The Labour switches to the likes of, as I say, the Greens and the Liberal Democrats
06:03It's the big reason why Labour's poll rating has slumped
06:07And these people won't be tempted back by a closed borders policy
06:13Back to you, Pippa
06:14Emily, does this new stance on immigration chime with Labour values?
06:21How comfortable do you feel about it?
06:25I don't think we need a closed borders policy
06:28And I don't think it sounds like a closed borders policy
06:31I think it sounds like it's really important to assimilate
06:34And it's really important for our communities to stick together
06:37So if you're a new migrant into the country
06:41It is important that you learn English
06:42And rather than find yourself isolated
06:46It's a good idea if you are able to get involved in your community
06:50And, I mean, in my experience, certainly
06:53When I've had people come to see me
06:55When I've had people from the asylum hotels coming to see me
06:57And they're doing voluntary work
06:59They're actually, their mental health is better
07:00And they make many more connections within the community
07:03And it helps them, but it also helps the community
07:06To understand who they are and what their place is
07:08And it makes them more human
07:09And do you think it is just rhetoric?
07:11Or is it, and do you hope that in practice
07:15It's maybe actually not that tough?
07:17Well, I think there will obviously be lots of questions
07:19So this question about, you know, claiming no benefits
07:23Now, does that mean in-work benefits?
07:25So if you're working, but if you're living in central London
07:28And you really can't make the rent
07:30Because very few people can
07:32Ordinary working people
07:33Then is it right for you to be getting assistance with your rent?
07:37I mean, I don't really know what that will then mean
07:39So there's lots of questions
07:41There's lots of questions
07:42I understand the principles
07:43But it's just really a question of kind of
07:45How is it going to work in practice?
07:47But, yeah, we should not be having a closed borders policy
07:49I think that would, I mean, and we're not
07:51And Jeremy, does nobody want to make the positive case for immigration anymore?
07:56Well, I make the positive case for immigration
07:59I think that we benefit as a country
08:01When we attract the brightest and best from all over the world
08:05But the reality is that the social contract
08:08Which has made us that kind of country for decades, even centuries
08:12Is now fraying really badly
08:15Because voters are spooked by the fact that we are not controlling illegal migration
08:20So I am very, very clear
08:23We must sort out illegal migration
08:25I think Shabana Mahmood's language
08:28Will be far more likely to reassure those voters than Keir Starmer's
08:32I think Keir Starmer's strategy is a strange one
08:34He's basically saying, don't vote reform because they're evil
08:38But actually what those voters care about
08:40Is success in controlling illegal migration
08:44And they don't think Labour is delivering on that
08:46They can see that in America it's gone down 90%
08:49In the EU it's gone down 21%
08:52But for us it's gone up a third
08:54And that's what's bothering people
08:56And Emily, as a lawyer
08:59What do you think the Home Secretary is referring to
09:02When she says she wants to question assumptions
09:05And legal constraints that have lasted for a generation
09:08Don't know
09:10Let's wait and see
09:11I mean, I think
09:12But can I just pick up on what Jeremy said
09:14Because I just think there's such a big gap
09:16You know, between what reform is saying
09:19And I do think the need to
09:21We can't have our borders completely out of control
09:24I mean, that's, you know
09:25I think that kind of insecurity that people feel
09:29When they feel that there is no control at all
09:31Over who comes in and who goes out of the country
09:33Is a completely understandable emotion
09:36And everybody surely in the country feels that
09:39There's a difference between that
09:40And just being downright nasty to new migrants
09:44Which is what reform want to do
09:46And do you think she might have been referring to the European Convention of Human Rights
09:49And redrawing that in some way?
09:51Maybe
09:51I mean, maybe, let's see
09:53I mean, there's quite a lot of talk about that
09:55In lots of different countries
09:57And, you know, the argument being that it was passed a long time ago
10:00That the situation has now changed
10:02And, you know, and maybe that's an ambition which is worth certainly trying
10:06But the difficulty always is
10:09Is that when you try to change many of these things
10:11You just end up fraying such agreement as there is
10:15And people sort of spill off in all different directions
10:17Because there are lots of different aspirations
10:20When it comes to
10:20Oh, let's change the European Convention on Human Rights
10:23Robert
10:24Thanks so much, Pippa
10:25So, weren't we surprised that when I spoke to the Deputy Prime Minister
10:29And Justice Secretary David Lammy
10:30I talked quite a lot about this whole migration issue
10:33I began by asking him whether he was completely comfortable
10:36With the Home Secretary's tough new conditions
10:39When migrants apply for indefinite leave to remain in this country
10:44I think what the Home Secretary has announced today
10:48Is really good news
10:49Because she is ensuring
10:51That those who have indefinite leave to remain
10:53I.e. you've, you know, you've made your asylum claim
10:56You can stay in the country
10:57But you're on a path to citizenship
10:59That that is an earned citizenship
11:01And she's talking about work
11:04She's talking about national insurance contributions
11:06She's talking about the ability to speak English well
11:09She's talking about making a contribution to society
11:12I do think that that will chime with the general public
11:15I mean, you do speak often
11:19And you did so again, actually, in the Observer at the weekend
11:22Of your pride at being the child of immigrants
11:27And again, you pointed out, again at the weekend
11:30That your dad left at the age of 12
11:32Are you absolutely confident
11:35That if your new rules had been in place
11:38When you were a child
11:40Your family would have met these criteria
11:43About, you know, not being on benefits
11:45Making a contribution to the community
11:47And so on
11:47Well, actually, you know
11:50If I'm thinking back to the Windrush generation
11:52And that's not just, of course, those who came from the Caribbean
11:55It's those who came from the wider
11:58What was then the Empire
11:59India, Pakistan, Nigeria
12:01They came
12:03And boy, oh boy, did they make a contribution
12:05They made a contribution in London Underground
12:08In the railway system
12:09In the National Health Service
12:11Which was built largely by those West Indian nurses that came
12:15I completely agree
12:16But those people still, like all of us
12:18Fell on hard times through no fault of their own
12:21And I guess my question is
12:22When a family falls on hard times for no fault of their own
12:26Are we confident that this system
12:28Won't discriminate against them?
12:31Oh, look, let's be absolutely clear
12:33The Windrush generation were people
12:35Who made an immense contribution to this country
12:38Yeah
12:38Who were then, people like my parents
12:41Who were then deported, detained
12:43Stripped of their right to work
12:45Stripped of their health care
12:46And in fact, what I think Nigel Farage is now proposing
12:50Is something similar
12:52That he'll line you up
12:54If you're from India, you go back
12:55If you're from the Caribbean, you go back
12:58If you're French, you can stay
13:00That is something quite, quite different
13:02To what the Home Secretary is proposing
13:04It's wrong, it's immoral
13:06It feels to me like the Windrush scandal all over again
13:09And we should stand against it
13:11So, you agree that, therefore
13:13You know, you agree with the Prime Minister
13:15That reforms abolition
13:17The way it's proposing to abolish indefinite leave to remain
13:20Is racist
13:22But are those people
13:24And, you know, there appear to be
13:27You know, quite a lot of them
13:29If they support the policy
13:30Are they racist?
13:32I'm always keen to try to play the ball, not the man
13:36And therefore the ball in this instance is the policy
13:41And the policy sounds racially discriminating
13:45To all with the same mind who are listening to it
13:48And I think it's important
13:51When values guides my politics and the Labour Party's politics
13:56That we call it out for what it is
13:57It's for the public then to make up their mind
13:59But it's discriminatory
14:01And we shouldn't do that
14:03But if it is racist, if it is discriminatory
14:05I'm sorry to press you on this
14:07But, you know, people will want to know
14:09Are you basically saying that if you're not a racist
14:12And you support it
14:13You just don't understand the policy
14:14And therefore you're a bit thick
14:16I'm not getting into that
14:19Look, I'm absolutely clear
14:22If you've got no right to be in the country
14:23You must be deported back to the country from which you came
14:26As Foreign Secretary, I deported
14:29That increase was 14%
14:3035,000 people left our country
14:33I'm proud of that
14:34Because people who shouldn't be here shouldn't be here
14:35Having said that
14:37If you have indefinite leave to remain
14:40It's because your case has been processed
14:42And you have a right to be here
14:44Citizenship is something else entirely
14:47What Farage is saying
14:49Is that you have no right to be here
14:50Even though your claim has been processed
14:52Out you go
14:54And worse than that
14:55Some people he'll kick out
14:57The Indian, the Nigerian
14:58Some people get to stay
15:00I think he's saying
15:01The French, Europeans can stay
15:02That is clearly discriminatory
15:04And I'm going to call it what it is
15:06You know, you say
15:07You want to play the ball, not the man
15:09In 2014
15:10I don't know if you remember this
15:11You did call Nigel Farage
15:13Racist
15:14Do you not stand by that now then?
15:17Look, that was 11 years ago
15:19There's a lot of water under the bridge
15:21Between now and then
15:23I'm looking at the policy proposals
15:25He's putting forward today
15:27Examining them in depth today
15:29Holding them up to the light
15:31I don't want to caricature him
15:34And obscure the implications
15:36Of his policy proposal
15:38On a whole range of issues
15:40He is not a racist anymore
15:42Just to be clear
15:43But would you like to say
15:44He's not a racist then?
15:46I've said to you
15:48Robert
15:48That I'm concentrating
15:49On his policies
15:51I think that is the way to go
15:53Hold those up to the light
15:55The personality stuff
15:57In the end
15:58In my experience
16:00And I've been in politics 25 years
16:02It doesn't really get you very far
16:04It's about what his proposals are
16:06For the people of this country
16:08And then there's a couple of other things
16:10I need to move on to
16:11But just finally on this issue
16:13Of indefinite leave to remain
16:17The Home Secretary said in her speech
16:18That she needed to question
16:21What she called the assumptions
16:22And legal constraints
16:24That have lasted for a generation
16:26In this area of immigration
16:28Do you know what she's referring to?
16:30Does she mean the European Convention
16:32On Human Rights?
16:33I think she's joining a debate
16:36That they're having across European countries
16:38Like Denmark
16:39Like Italy
16:40Like France
16:42Where they are looking
16:43At the way that people are using
16:46For example
16:46Parts of Article 8
16:48To claim right to a family life
16:51And there is a debate
16:53Now amongst European leaders
16:57And European Home Secretaries
16:59Justice Secretaries
17:00Foreign ministers
17:01About the articulation
17:03Of the European Convention
17:05Of Human Rights
17:06To meet today's challenges
17:07And she's joining that debate
17:09And I would want to work
17:11Alongside her with that
17:12And I mean
17:14You're a lawyer
17:14Kirstama is a lawyer
17:19Some have said to me
17:20That actually
17:21If there's going to be reform
17:23Of the European Convention
17:24On Human Rights
17:25You're the right people
17:26To lead it
17:27Well
17:29What I don't think is right
17:32Is just wholesale
17:33Pulling out of the European Convention
17:35On Human Rights
17:36You know
17:36It's bizarre
17:37That the party of Churchill
17:38Is now proposing that
17:39I say that because
17:40It would completely
17:42Cut across
17:44The Good Friday Agreement
17:45And bring back the troubles
17:46In Northern Ireland
17:47But looking closely
17:50At the implications
17:51The way that people
17:52May be playing the system
17:54That is something
17:56That I'm quite willing
17:57To do
17:58With fellow justice ministers
18:00Who are also
18:01Raising these concerns
18:03When we come together
18:05Now you
18:06Immerse yourself
18:07As Foreign Secretary
18:08In the tragedy
18:09Unfolding in Gaza
18:11As you know
18:12There is a
18:13Possible plan
18:15When there
18:16Is a ceasefire
18:17In peace
18:17For Tony Blair
18:18To go in
18:19As a
18:19I don't know
18:20A kind of viceroy
18:21A sort of interim
18:22Governor
18:22Of Gaza
18:24Do you think
18:25That would be a good idea
18:26Tony did a lot of work
18:28Right from the beginning
18:29On what would happen
18:30On the day after
18:31And he was a little bit critical
18:32That there was so much
18:33Focus on a ceasefire
18:34No one would actually
18:35Be able to solve this
18:36Until they completely
18:38Dealt with what happens
18:40At the governance
18:40Of Gaza afterwards
18:41In order to get
18:42To that ceasefire
18:42And I think he was right
18:43About that
18:44Now look
18:45The Palestinian Authority
18:47Has got to be part
18:47Of the mix here
18:48And there's got to be
18:48A transition to the
18:49Palestinian Authority
18:50We're talking about
18:51The administration
18:52We're talking about
18:53The governance
18:53We're talking about
18:54The policing
18:55We're talking about
18:55The rebuilding of Gaza
18:56I think that's going to take
18:58A lot more than one individual
19:00I think it's probably
19:01Got to include
19:02Palestinians
19:03And Arab states
19:04I've seen Tony's name
19:07In the mix
19:08Now he may be one of many
19:12But I think when you look
19:13At all that's got to be done
19:14It's got to have
19:16Some Palestinian
19:17Some Arab context to it
19:19Or it's not going to work
19:20I mean it sounds like
19:21You're saying though
19:22You would be in favour
19:23Of being part of
19:24That interim government
19:26Finally
19:27I'm very suspicious
19:29Of the term viceroy
19:30I don't think that
19:31Going back to a mandate
19:32Is going to work
19:34Robert
19:34I really don't
19:35I don't think that's what
19:36The Palestinian people want
19:37Or is in the interest of Israel
19:39That sounds
19:40Completely rational to me
19:42And then just finally
19:43You praised Angela Rayner
19:45Today
19:46What is her way back
19:48To the front line
19:48Of politics
19:49Oh look
19:50Angela Rayner
19:52Is a woman in her 40s
19:54She is going to continue
19:57To make a big contribution
19:59To the labour movement
20:00In the years ahead
20:02I have no doubt about that
20:04I described her
20:06As a working class hero
20:07She's a beacon
20:07For working class women
20:08Across our country
20:10She made a huge contribution
20:12On planning
20:13A huge contribution
20:14On employment rights
20:15And she will continue
20:16To play a role
20:17Back in the cabinet
20:18To her articulate
20:18How she does that
20:19In the months ahead
20:21Back in the cabinet
20:22I could see
20:23I could see Angela Rayner
20:25In a future cabinet
20:26Of course
20:27I think people have
20:28Tremendous sympathy
20:28For the situation
20:30She found herself in
20:31And the way that she sought
20:32To defend her son
20:33Particularly
20:34Deputy Prime Minister
20:35David Lambe
20:36Very good to see you
20:37And thanks for joining us tonight
20:39Thank you
20:42Now you probably noticed
20:45That I said in that interview
20:47That something very clever
20:47Had said to me
20:49That the perfect person
20:50As a lawyer
20:50To renegotiate
20:51The European Convention
20:52Of Human Rights
20:52With other
20:53Of our overseas partners
20:55Was Keir Starmer
20:57In fact Jeremy Hunt
20:58Has just reminded me
20:59That that very clever person
21:00Was him
21:01Because it's in his latest book
21:03And we talked about it
21:04Anyway
21:05Actually
21:05I'm going to move on
21:06A bit from that
21:06Because since I spoke
21:08To the Deputy Prime Minister
21:11We have had this announcement
21:13Of what he's describing
21:15As a sort of historic
21:16Peace settlement
21:16For Gaza
21:17Which he says he's agreed
21:18With the Israeli Prime Minister
21:21Benjamin Netanyahu
21:22And I want to talk to
21:23Both of you
21:24About this
21:26Former Foreign Secretary
21:27Jeremy Hunt
21:28But also
21:28I'm just going to
21:29Start with you
21:31Emily
21:32Because you actually
21:32Have come on the show
21:34Saying that you were
21:36Hopeful
21:37That Trump would be
21:39The person
21:39Who could bring
21:40Peace to Gaza
21:41Do you think
21:43This is the big moment
21:44Do you think
21:45Hamas will agree to this
21:46I'm glad you were listening
21:50But yes
21:52I did
21:53I think
21:53I spoke about it
21:54In February
21:55It's great news
21:58Of course it's great news
21:59My God
22:00We really need
22:01The killing to stop
22:02And as soon as we can
22:04The better
22:05So I'm very pleased
22:07That if this is really true
22:09That it's going to stop
22:11In 72 hours
22:12Then that's got to be
22:13A good thing
22:14Now the question is
22:15Where do we go from there
22:16But we need to have
22:18Trump involved
22:19And I think
22:19I don't know if I said
22:20This to you
22:21But I said it to other
22:22Journalists
22:22And I hope they were
22:23Listening too
22:24But during Trump
22:26And Starmer's conference
22:28Although everybody
22:30Was kind of focused on
22:31Oh Donald Trump
22:32Doesn't agree with
22:33Keir Starmer
22:34Recognising Palestine
22:35I said
22:36But listen
22:36The most important thing
22:37Was Keir Starmer
22:38Said publicly
22:39That there were teams
22:40From Britain
22:41And teams from America
22:42That were working together
22:43To try to put together
22:45A peace process
22:46And to put more energy
22:47Into the peace process
22:48And if that is happening
22:49That is very good news
22:51Because we have to
22:52Involve the Americans
22:53Because that's the only way forward
22:54Jeremy
22:55I mean obviously
22:56You've previously been
22:58Involved in other
23:00Intractable aspects
23:03Of the tension
23:04Between Hamas
23:06And the Israelis
23:08We haven't yet heard
23:09From Hamas
23:11Can we be confident
23:13That they would agree to this
23:14Well we can't be confident
23:16But as Emily says
23:17We should certainly hope
23:19I mean the issue here
23:20Is that there is
23:21You know
23:21Less than zero trust
23:23Between Hamas
23:25And the Israelis
23:25It's massively negative
23:27I mean the Israelis
23:27Even tried to bomb
23:29Hamas
23:29Negotiators recently
23:31When they were
23:32Talking about
23:32A potential settlement
23:33But I have to say
23:35That obviously
23:36I'm not someone who supported
23:38Tony Blair's government
23:39But I think Tony Blair
23:40Could make a very good contribution
23:41He did a very good job
23:44In Northern Ireland
23:45Of getting trust
23:47Between two parties
23:49Who had absolutely no time
23:51For each other
23:52And I think in this case
23:54The other thing
23:55That he could do
23:56Is somehow
23:56You've got to get
23:57A stable peace
23:59In Gaza
24:00And a road map
24:02To a longer term peace
24:03Which most of us
24:05Have thought until now
24:06Would be a two state solution
24:07Now the Israelis
24:08Are saying that
24:08Is off the table
24:10But somehow
24:10If we can find
24:12A pathway forward
24:13To a longer term peace
24:14Well I think
24:15That is something
24:15Blair could make
24:16A contribution towards
24:18And Emily
24:19Tony Blair is somebody
24:20Who divides your party
24:21Do you think
24:22It is
24:23He is the right person
24:25To play
24:25Quite a big role
24:26As a sort of governor
24:27Of Gazna
24:28For maybe a few years
24:29I honestly don't care
24:34Robert
24:35What I care
24:35Is what works
24:36So if Tony Blair
24:38Is the person
24:39That can bring people together
24:41That can bring
24:41The Israelis on board
24:43That the Palestinians
24:44Can have trust in
24:45That the Americans
24:46Can have trust in
24:47Let's go for it
24:48If he isn't
24:49Then get
24:50Then he'll get somebody else
24:51But in any event
24:52It won't be one person
24:52It will need to be
24:54A huge team
24:54And it will need to be
24:55An international effort
24:56And we need to make sure
24:58That Britain is absolutely
24:59At the forefront of it
25:00As are the Americans
25:01But as are
25:02Many of our European
25:03And Arab partners
25:04We need to make sure
25:05That there is
25:06A huge effort
25:07There is so much to gain
25:09You know
25:10I mean
25:10Jeremy refers to
25:11Northern Ireland
25:12Remember
25:12Everybody used to say
25:14That Northern Ireland
25:15Was an impossible problem
25:16To solve
25:16Until suddenly it wasn't
25:18We can find a peace
25:20In Gaza
25:20But we've really got to try
25:22And we've got to believe
25:23That politics can find an answer
25:24Emily, Jeremy
25:26I've so much more
25:27I need to talk to both of you
25:28About after the break
25:29When we will also be joined
25:32Live from Liverpool
25:32By the favourite
25:33To be the new deputy leader
25:35Of the Labour Party
25:36Lucy Powell
25:37And just before I go
25:38I want to reassure Emily
25:39That I hang on her every word
25:41She doesn't have to be surprised
25:42I remember what she said
25:44See you in a minute
25:45Welcome back
25:57Now we are going to talk elections
26:00And elections for leaders
26:02And deputy leaders
26:02And one thing that has gone right for Starmer
26:06Is that the so-called King of the North
26:07Andy Burnham
26:08Mayor of Greater Manchester
26:09He went into the conference
26:11Making his case
26:12Many would say
26:13To replace Starmer
26:14As Prime Minister
26:14Sooner rather than later
26:15But in the face of criticism
26:17Throughout the conference
26:19I encountered a bit of it
26:20That he's been a bit too disloyal
26:21He said today
26:22That Starmer is
26:23The right person
26:24To lead Labour
26:25And the country
26:25Even so
26:27Exclusive polling
26:28From Labour list
26:29And salvation
26:29Shows that among Labour members
26:30Burnham is massively more popular
26:33Than other potential leadership candidates
26:37And poor old Wes over here
26:39For years people thought he was the favourite
26:41To succeed
26:42But he obviously needs to spend
26:42A bit more time
26:43Schmoozing local party members
26:45If there won't be a leadership contest
26:48This side of May's local
26:49And national elections
26:51There is an important competition
26:53Going on to replace
26:55To choose Angela Rayner's successor
26:57As deputy leader
26:58We told you last week
26:59That Lucy Powell
27:00Who was sacked
27:01From the government
27:01By Keir Starmer
27:02Was well ahead
27:03Of his preferred candidate
27:05The education secretary
27:06Bridget Phillips
27:06And well
27:07Labour list and salvation
27:08Have done a second survey
27:09Of Labour members
27:10And Powell has extended her lead
27:11You can see here
27:12To more than 30 percentage points
27:14There's still weeks to go
27:17But Labour members
27:17Are clearly signalling
27:18That they want the new deputy leader
27:20To put pressure
27:21On Starmer
27:22To do what they want
27:24Rather than them
27:26Taking orders from him
27:27And Lucy
27:28Is with Pippa
27:29Right now
27:30That's so interesting
27:34Robert
27:34I've got just the person here
27:36Lucy
27:36You were obviously
27:37Running for the deputy leadership
27:38After having left
27:39The cabinet
27:40And you said
27:41You wouldn't be
27:41Chucking rocks
27:42At the government
27:43But isn't that exactly
27:44What Labour members
27:45Will want you to do
27:46No
27:47I think Labour members
27:48Want us to be
27:49More successful
27:51They want us to be
27:52A better government
27:53Because clearly
27:54Things haven't been going
27:55All that well
27:56When you look at the polls
27:57There's no sugar coating
27:59Of that
28:00And we've made mistakes
28:01Through the last year
28:02And they've taken away
28:03From the many good things
28:05That we've been doing
28:06So I think
28:06Party members
28:07And the public
28:09Actually want us to be
28:11A better version of ourselves
28:12To give a better
28:13Account of ourselves
28:14Who are we governing for
28:15And why are we doing
28:17What we're doing
28:18And what is the purpose
28:19Of this Labour government
28:20And I think I can
28:21Help with that
28:22And that's what
28:23I think Labour party members want
28:24And if that means
28:26At times
28:27Speaking truth to power
28:29Having the difficult conversations
28:30Ideally in private
28:32You know
28:32As part of the family
28:33So that we can get
28:34A course correction
28:35Then I will do that
28:37And I think
28:37That's what members
28:38Want as well
28:39Now your arrival
28:40For the job
28:40Bridget Philipson
28:41Said that she thought
28:43It might be a risk
28:44To the stability
28:45Of the party
28:45Having a deputy leader
28:46Outside of the cabinet
28:47Do you agree?
28:49No absolutely not
28:50You know
28:51Look this
28:51This is a party role
28:53This is a role
28:54Is people are elected
28:55By the members
28:56It always has been
28:57It always will be
28:58The leader and the deputy leader
28:59Are elected by members
29:01We're not appointed
29:02The deputy leader
29:03Is not appointed
29:03By the Prime Minister
29:05And it's a chance
29:06For members to have their say
29:07And actually
29:07I think there's a real
29:08Value added
29:09That I can bring now
29:10In addition to the cabinet
29:11Having this political role
29:13Outside of cabinet
29:15But working alongside cabinet
29:16Bringing the politics
29:17Into the conversation
29:19At all turns
29:20Keeping us connected
29:21With our communities
29:22Keeping us connected
29:23With our members
29:24And having that bridge
29:26To the party membership
29:27Full time
29:28Because this isn't going to be
29:30Someone who is
29:30Deputy Prime Minister
29:31Neither Bridget or I
29:32Are going to be
29:33Deputy Prime Minister
29:33We're going to be
29:34The elected leader
29:36Of the
29:37Deputy leader rather
29:38Of the Labour Party
29:40And that is not a role
29:41That government recognises
29:43So it is a party role
29:44Everybody I speak to here
29:46In Liverpool
29:46From the Prime Minister
29:47Down refers to
29:48Nigel Farage's
29:49Immigration policy
29:50As racist
29:51But don't sort of
29:53Want to call the people
29:53Who support them racist
29:55How does that work?
29:56Well look I think
29:57That's the
29:57Well everyone's
29:58Saying the same thing
30:00Aren't they?
30:00I think you know
30:01Targeting people
30:02Who are in this country
30:04Legally and fairly
30:06Who've come here
30:07In good faith
30:08And have you know
30:08Contributed to this country
30:10The idea that we would
30:12Deport them
30:13Round them up
30:14And deport them
30:15Is racist
30:16Because we're
30:17Targeting immigrants
30:19And what I've been
30:20Saying this week
30:21Is that we really need
30:22To rest back
30:23From Nigel Farage
30:24And his ilk
30:25This political megaphone
30:26Because he's been
30:27Setting the terms of debate
30:28What about the people
30:29That are backing him
30:29Are they being manipulated?
30:31No look I think
30:32Nigel Farage has been
30:33Sort of trying to
30:34Make the weather
30:34Hasn't he?
30:35And I think he's
30:36Done that successfully
30:37Because we've seeded
30:38The debate to him
30:41I'm sure most of the people
30:42That are supporting
30:43Nigel Farage in reform
30:45Don't know about
30:45Individual policies
30:47We've got to call out
30:48Nigel Farage
30:48But also I think
30:50What I'm hearing
30:51Loud and clear
30:52Is people want to know
30:53What are we doing?
30:54What's the Labour Party?
30:55What's the Labour government doing?
30:57Who are we doing it for?
30:58They don't want us
30:58To keep going on
30:59About Nigel Farage either actually
31:00They want us to set out
31:02Much more clearly
31:03What is our agenda?
31:04And what are we doing
31:05To fix the problems
31:06The country faces?
31:06And one of the problems
31:07The country faces
31:08Is obviously child poverty
31:09And both you and
31:10Bridget Philipson
31:11Think that the
31:12Two child limit
31:13Has to go
31:14But polling suggests
31:15That the British public
31:16Is actually in favour of it
31:18Is that a problem?
31:19No I don't think
31:20It's a problem
31:21Because look
31:21I think we've got to be
31:22Much clearer
31:23About who we stand for
31:25In this country
31:26And in whose interests
31:27Are we governing
31:28And people are not
31:30Seeing that clearly
31:31Enough from us
31:32And addressing child poverty
31:34And helping some of
31:35The most vulnerable
31:36In our society
31:37Those who are struggling
31:38To get by
31:39That is to the core
31:40Of what any Labour government
31:41Should be about
31:42So that's why
31:43I've been saying
31:44All along
31:44We've got to be
31:45Much clearer
31:46That we are in favour
31:47Of a policy
31:47That's going to address that
31:49Now you were
31:49Leader of the House of Commons
31:51When Keir Starmer's
31:53Welfare reforms fell apart
31:54Pat McFadden
31:55The Welfare Secretary
31:56Seems to want to come back
31:57For more cuts
31:58Will the party wear that?
32:00It not
32:01It depends in what form
32:03They've done
32:03Look I think we've
32:04Absolutely got to learn
32:05The lessons
32:06Of what happened
32:07With the
32:08With the welfare bill
32:09We made proposals
32:10That weren't
32:11Fully thought through
32:13We were trying to
32:13Kind of rush them
32:14Along
32:15They were done
32:16Or they were seeming
32:17To be done
32:18On the basis
32:18Of needing to make cuts
32:20Not on the basis
32:21For delivering better outcomes
32:22And reforming the system
32:24The system does need reform
32:25But you've got to
32:26Take people with you
32:27When you're doing
32:28Wholesale reform like that
32:29You've got to do it carefully
32:31You've got to do it slowly
32:32And take people
32:33With you
32:34And build consensus
32:34And the devil's always
32:36In the detail
32:37So that's why
32:38One of the things
32:39That I'll be doing
32:40As I've done before
32:41Of being the sort of
32:41Shop steward
32:42Of the back benches
32:43For the last year or so
32:44Is making sure
32:45That we're taking
32:46Elected representatives
32:47Parliament with us
32:49On these kind of issues
32:51Now we saw on Screeny
32:52About Andy Burnham
32:53And how popular
32:54He's amongst the members
32:55He seems to have
32:56Backtracked a bit today
32:57And says that
32:58Keir Starmer
32:58Is now the best person
33:00To be Prime Minister
33:01Does Keir Starmer
33:02Need to offer more hope
33:03And are you 100% confident
33:05That he will lead
33:06The party
33:07Into the next election
33:08Well I really hope
33:09He does
33:10Look
33:10We were elected
33:12Only 15 months ago
33:13On a mandate of change
33:15And he was elected
33:16As our Prime Minister
33:17But one of the things
33:18That I think
33:19Everyone's crying out for
33:21Is that we
33:21We've got this broad movement
33:23Which is one of our
33:24Great strengths
33:25Is that we draw on
33:26The talents
33:26Right across our movement
33:28Including Andy Burnham
33:28Including Andy Burnham
33:29Who is an incredibly talented politician
33:32We draw on all the talents
33:34Across our movement
33:35I think that will make us
33:36Make better decisions
33:37It will give a clearer sense
33:39Of who we are
33:40And who we're governing for
33:41And I think as Deputy Leader
33:43I can bring that to the table
33:44In service of this Labour government
33:46And Keir Starmer
33:47Prime Minister
33:48Because I want us to be
33:49A better version of ourselves
33:51And a more successful government
33:52Lucy, thank you
33:54Robert
33:54Yeah, fascinating
33:55I'm absolutely certain
33:57That Keir Starmer
33:58Is looking forward
33:59To having
34:00The self-described
34:03Shop steward
34:03As his deputy
34:05Jeremy
34:07We have
34:09We've had a remarkable few days
34:10Where people have said
34:11This conference
34:12Was make or break
34:12For Keir Starmer
34:14And he's plainly got
34:15An important speech
34:16To make tomorrow
34:17But we've got
34:17The Conservative conference
34:18Next week
34:20Some people are saying
34:21That's make or break
34:22For Kemi Badenoch
34:24Is it as big a moment
34:26For her as they say
34:27I don't think so
34:29I don't detect any mood
34:30Inside the Conservative Party
34:31To have our fifth leader
34:34In four years
34:35I think people
34:36Know that we need
34:38To give Kemi time
34:38And
34:39How much time
34:40Do you think
34:40Because we're still waiting
34:42For a lot of the important
34:43Big pillars of policy
34:45Yes, but remember
34:47Just over a year ago
34:48We had the worst defeat
34:50In our history
34:50And the country
34:52Are not going to rush back
34:53And say we got it wrong
34:54In a year
34:55And what we need to do
34:57Is what all opposition parties
35:00Do in our system
35:01When it's working well
35:02Which is come up
35:03With solutions
35:03To the big problems
35:05That we face
35:05And at the moment
35:06We haven't had that
35:07From Labour
35:07That's why
35:08As Lucy was rightly saying
35:10They've lost
35:11A lot of support
35:12In the polls
35:13And I think
35:14As Kemi starts to do that
35:16We will get back
35:17In the race
35:17I don't know
35:18Is Emily
35:19With us
35:20Because there was
35:21There was
35:22Okay
35:22Well before we go
35:23To
35:24To
35:25To
35:25Emily
35:26As an outside
35:28Observer
35:30And I don't know
35:31If you can be
35:32Dispassionate about this
35:33But
35:33Do you think
35:35Labour
35:36Should think about
35:37Replacing Starmer
35:38My own view
35:40Is that
35:41You know
35:42Starmer is
35:43A decent man
35:44But he is
35:46Really struggling
35:46And I
35:47Actually don't think
35:48It is just about
35:48The vision thing
35:50Which is what you
35:50Talked about
35:51At the top of the show
35:52I think the real issue
35:53Is that he was
35:54Elected to sort out
35:56Problems in the economy
35:57And on small boats
35:58And neither has happened
36:00People don't see
36:01The big issues
36:02Really being tackled
36:04And I think that
36:05I listened to
36:07Rachel Reeves' speech today
36:08And I felt it was
36:09More an argument
36:10To the party
36:11Faithful
36:11That she is not
36:13Another Tory
36:13Austerity Chancellor
36:15Rather than
36:16An argument to
36:17The country
36:17About the big
36:18Decisions that she
36:19Has in the budget
36:20And I think
36:20There is one
36:21Very big
36:21Strategic choice
36:23That Labour
36:23Has to make
36:24Do they do
36:25Welfare reform
36:26Which if they got
36:27The welfare bill
36:28Down to 2019
36:29Levels
36:30Would save about
36:3147 billion pounds
36:32A year
36:33Or are they
36:35Prepared to come back
36:36Year in
36:36Year out
36:37With more tax rises
36:39That could stifle
36:40Economic growth
36:41And I think that
36:42What I was expecting
36:43Was some kind of
36:45Sense as to which
36:46Way they were going
36:46To go
36:47And I left
36:48None the wiser
36:49Well we're going to
36:50Come back to the
36:50Whole tax question
36:51After the next break
36:53But Emily I'm delighted
36:54That you are
36:55Back with us
36:56Just on Andy Burnham
36:58The consensus
37:00Of people I've spoken
37:01To
37:01You know
37:01So called
37:02King of the north
37:02Is that
37:04A sort of
37:05Gentle signalling
37:06Of his ambitions
37:07Would have been
37:07The right thing
37:08But he overplayed
37:09His hand
37:10And you know
37:11There's a sort of
37:12Sense that he was
37:13A bit too aggressive
37:14In showing that
37:15He wants to succeed
37:16What's your view
37:17I kind of feel
37:22That Andy will be
37:22Andy
37:23And you know
37:25He kind of
37:26Warmed to his theme
37:27And perhaps
37:28Should have stopped
37:28A bit earlier
37:29But you know
37:30There we are
37:31I mean he's
37:32He's doing a good job
37:34As Mayor of Manchester
37:35And presumably
37:37Will remain
37:38Mayor of Manchester
37:39For some time
37:39And continue
37:40To do a good job
37:41Do you think
37:41He may be
37:42Labour leader
37:42One day
37:43I think probably not
37:47And then
37:49But then this issue
37:50Of how
37:51Safe Keir Starmer is
37:52First of all
37:53How important
37:54Is the speech tomorrow
37:55Oh I think
37:59It is important
38:00I think it's important
38:02That
38:02I think he has
38:03I mean obviously
38:04He has two audiences
38:05And it's important
38:07To remember them both
38:08I think that
38:09The party faithful
38:10Comes to this conference
38:11Wanting to be enthused
38:12And wanting to hear
38:14The message
38:15And why it is
38:15We're in politics
38:16And what we're
38:17Trying to achieve
38:18And hear from the heart
38:19What it is
38:20That Labour is about
38:21And that is
38:23Very important
38:24It pulls it together
38:26It inspires us
38:27And I know
38:28That if Keir
38:30Is himself
38:30He will be able
38:31To do that
38:32But what about
38:32The country
38:33Because Jeremy's
38:33Point is that
38:34Rachel he feels
38:35Didn't reach out
38:36To the country
38:37How important is it
38:38That the Prime Minister
38:39Does
38:40Yeah I mean I think
38:43That what Jeremy
38:44Was saying
38:44Was a lot of nonsense
38:45I think that he did
38:46She did reach out
38:47To the country too
38:48I mean I wasn't
38:48In the hall
38:49To hear her speech
38:50But I did hear her
38:51On the media round
38:53I did hear her
38:53On the Today programme
38:54And I heard her speak
38:56With a passion
38:57And a commitment
38:58To doing the right thing
39:00And to leading the country
39:01In the right way
39:02That I thought
39:04Was very impressive
39:05Actually
39:05I mean really
39:06Very impressive
39:06So you know
39:08She's
39:09So I think
39:10That if we can
39:10Hear a bit more
39:11I mean you know
39:12I do think
39:13You know I think this
39:14I think that you know
39:15If people say what they mean
39:16And mean what they say
39:17There is an authenticity
39:18To them
39:18And people know
39:19That they're speaking
39:20A truth
39:20And that's what
39:21We need to be doing
39:22We need to be a bit
39:23More confident
39:23About ourselves
39:24A bit more labour
39:25And go for it
39:26And a bit more authentic
39:27Emily obviously
39:28Now don't go away
39:29Because after the break
39:31We will be talking
39:32About one of the most
39:33Important budgets
39:33Of our time
39:34We thought last year's
39:35Was important
39:35This one could be
39:36Even more important
39:37And I'll be talking it over
39:38With a former
39:39Chancellor of the Exchequer
39:40Jeremy Hunt
39:41You can't afford to miss it
39:42See you in a second
39:43Welcome back
39:54Now I reported
39:55A few days ago
39:56That the Chancellor
39:58Is facing
39:59A 30 billion hole
40:00In the budget
40:03We've got this huge
40:04Actually way more important
40:05Than these party conferences
40:06We're going through
40:07The biggest event
40:07Of the autumn
40:08Will be this budget
40:09So there we are
40:10We can see
40:11That she's going to have
40:13To raise
40:1330 billion pounds
40:15In taxes
40:17Because she's basically
40:18Ruled out spending cuts
40:20You talked earlier
40:20About the importance
40:21Of welfare cuts
40:21They can't do those
40:23Until after they get
40:24The Tim's report
40:25What's it like
40:27Weeks before a budget
40:29Trying to think through
40:31How earth you raise
40:33That kind of money
40:34And if
40:34I know you don't want
40:35To raise taxes
40:35But if you had to raise taxes
40:37Which are the ones
40:38She should be looking at?
40:39Well the first thing is
40:40It is really difficult
40:42And I don't envy
40:43Rachel Reeves' position
40:44Because she made
40:46A big gamble
40:47That things might move
40:49In her direction
40:49And they've actually
40:50Moved against her
40:50And that happens
40:51To any chances
40:52It's nothing to do with
40:53And she didn't have
40:53A cushion of any size
40:54Did she?
40:54The so-called headroom
40:55Was nothing
40:55No
40:56And so it is
40:57A very very difficult position
40:59That she finds herself in
41:00And can I just ask you
41:01Do you feel any sympathy
41:02For the fact that
41:02The OBR didn't review
41:04The productivity outlook
41:06Last year
41:06Because the big contributor
41:08To this whole
41:09Is that they have decided
41:10The economy
41:11Productivity is growing
41:12Slower than they thought
41:13They could have made
41:14This judgement a year ago
41:15They could have
41:16But it's also the way
41:17That the bond yields
41:18Have gone up
41:19And that's meant
41:20The cost of debt interest
41:21Is going to be higher
41:22And I think it's just
41:25Very difficult
41:26That said
41:27I think in this situation
41:29What we haven't heard
41:31From her
41:31And I hope we do
41:32Start to hear
41:33Is what is her plan
41:34For growth
41:35Because what people
41:37Want to know
41:37Is how are we
41:38Going to get out of this
41:39How are we going
41:39To get back
41:40To the 2% plus growth
41:42That we were getting
41:42Before the financial crisis
41:44Instead of
41:44Hobbling along
41:46At 1%
41:47But given
41:48I mean obviously
41:49We all agree
41:50Growth has got to come up
41:51What would be
41:52The least
41:53Sort of growth
41:54Flattening taxes
41:56She could look at
41:57Well
41:58I don't think
41:58She should be raising taxes
41:59As you
42:00As you correctly predicted
42:02In fact you can see
42:03On this graph here
42:03I made a valiant effort
42:04Some would say
42:05You gave away money
42:06You didn't have
42:06Those
42:07The national insurance cuts
42:09Definitely contributed
42:11To the problem
42:11She inherited
42:12Well the OBR
42:12Said that they met
42:13The fiscal rules
42:14So I don't agree with that
42:15But my point is
42:16Though you also
42:17Had minuscule
42:18No no
42:18What I did was
42:19I believe by cutting
42:21National insurance
42:21We would grow the economy
42:23And the OBR
42:23Backed that up
42:24And I think
42:25If you look around
42:25The world
42:26Well let's
42:26Let's then
42:27In which case
42:27Let's then look
42:28At your productivity record
42:30Because as I showed you
42:31Earlier on today
42:32Productivity
42:33Well productivity
42:34In the UK
42:34Has been lamentable
42:36Since the financial crisis
42:39You know it's grown
42:40Way less than in America
42:41But way less
42:42Than the average
42:43Of all rich countries
42:44And that happened
42:46On your government's watch
42:48What did
42:49Why couldn't you fix it
42:50Well actually
42:51I did a lot of things
42:52But they do take time
42:53To feed through
42:54What I did was
42:54Perhaps my biggest
42:55Single tax cut
42:56Which was something
42:57Called full expensing
42:58Which gives businesses
42:59A big tax break
43:01On what they invest
43:02In plant and machinery
43:03And that was
43:04To encourage them
43:05To invest
43:06Now unfortunately
43:06I don't want to get
43:08Into trading blows
43:08With Rachel
43:09Because she does
43:09Have a difficult job
43:11But the rise
43:11In employers
43:12National insurance
43:13Discouraged them
43:15From making exactly
43:16The investments
43:16We need
43:17But they are doing
43:19Other things
43:19You would approve of
43:20Like reforming
43:21Planning restrictions
43:22Like trying to make
43:23Regulation less onerous
43:25And as you yourself
43:26Pointed out
43:26It does take a while
43:28For this stuff
43:28To feed through
43:29It does
43:29And the issue
43:30You've got
43:31When you're getting
43:32That growth rate
43:32Up to 2% plus
43:34What do you do
43:35In the five years
43:36Or so
43:37That it takes
43:38For those policies
43:39To feed through
43:40And the only game
43:42In town
43:42Which happens
43:42To be very good
43:43For growth
43:43Very good for the economy
43:45Is welfare reform
43:46And that's why
43:47I think if I was
43:48In her shoes now
43:49And what I was
43:50Hoping to hear today
43:51Maybe we'll hear it
43:52From Keir Starmer
43:52Tomorrow
43:53Is a big argument
43:54Not that we
43:56We need to cut
43:56Welfare to save money
43:57But actually getting
43:58People off welfare
44:00Into work
44:01Is good for the individuals
44:02At the moment
44:03We are signing off
44:05A thousand people
44:06Every single day
44:07And we're saying
44:08They don't even have
44:09To look for work
44:10A lot of these people
44:11Have mental illness
44:13It would be far better
44:14For their anxiety
44:15And their depression
44:15If they were in
44:16The world of work
44:17But we're signing
44:18Them off work
44:19And that
44:20In fairness to the government
44:21They did announce
44:22Today a scheme
44:23Whereby
44:23You know
44:24The million young people
44:25Who are neither
44:26In education
44:27Or work
44:28Will be subsidised
44:29To get jobs
44:30Which is a sort of
44:31Step in the right direction
44:32It is tinkering
44:33And in the end
44:34If we got the welfare bill
44:35Down to
44:36Pre-pandemic levels
44:38We would save enough
44:39To avoid any tax rises
44:40You did say that earlier
44:41And I just want to
44:42Bring in Pippa for a second
44:43Because
44:44I mean
44:45You and I
44:45Have both been talking
44:46To members of the cabinet
44:47And senior people in Labour
44:48About this budget
44:50And even though
44:51This conference is important
44:52They are saying
44:53The budget
44:53Is probably more important
44:54Absolutely
44:57They say it's critical
44:58And I've been speaking
44:59To senior
44:59Downing Street people here
45:01Who say that
45:02While they're focused
45:03On party conference
45:04And everything they need
45:05To do
45:05The message they need
45:06To deliver to the country
45:06And their party
45:08They are much more focused
45:10In fact
45:10It's keeping them up
45:11At night
45:12Worrying about the budget
45:13How they're going to
45:14Address the really tough
45:16Economic backdrop
45:18That they face
45:18Which taxes
45:19Are going to have to put up
45:20Lots of speculation here
45:21About which ones
45:22They will do
45:23Whether they'll be able
45:24To stick with the
45:24Manifesto pledges
45:25Not to put up
45:26Those fee taxes
45:26On working people
45:27A lot of uncertainty
45:29About that
45:30And when we go off air
45:31I'm going to be
45:32Going back down to the bar
45:33To see what else
45:33I can find out
45:34Jeremy out of interest
45:36Do you think
45:36If they hadn't made
45:37Those pledges
45:37On income tax
45:38And VAT
45:39They would have
45:40Still won the election
45:41Good question
45:42I think they probably
45:43Would have
45:44Because we had
45:45Kind of come to the
45:45End of the runway
45:46After 14 years
45:47And it has
45:49Boxed them in
45:50But I think
45:50The big call is
45:52Countries with lower taxes
45:54Grow faster
45:55Do you buy that
45:56Or not
45:56Jeremy we're going to
45:58Have this conversation
45:58I know
45:59Many times again
46:00That's it
46:01If you've been tempted
46:02To feel sorry for
46:03Starmer and his woes
46:04You ought to be weeping
46:05For the Tory reader
46:05Kemi Badenok
46:06In next week's show
46:07During Tory party conference
46:09We'll assess whether
46:10She's a political Lazarus
46:11Or a Norwegian blue dead parrot
46:13See you then
46:14Goodbye
46:14I'll see you then
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