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Peston on Sunday - Season 11 Episode 25
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00:00Hello and welcome. Coming up tonight, can Keir Starmer survive as Prime Minister?
00:09I'll ask the Deputy Prime Minister, David Lammy.
00:11I've just returned from Labour's party conference in Liverpool,
00:14but lucky old Pippa is still there.
00:16I'll be talking about the Labour leadership contest that is happening
00:20with one of the two contenders to be Deputy Leader, Lucy Powell.
00:24Pippa's absent means I can muck around with Screeny and ask
00:28whether Starmer's denigration of Farage's policies as racist
00:31will hurt reform or Labour and throughout the show.
00:35I'll be talking fiscal black holes, Boris Waves and Trump's Gaza plan
00:39with the former Tory Chancellor, Jeremy Hunt,
00:43and the current Foreign Affairs Committee Chair, Emily Thornberry.
00:47Watch out. In modern British history, there's not been a slump in popularity
01:01as severe and rapid as Starmer's and Labour's
01:04since they won that overwhelming election victory 15 months ago.
01:09Politics does swing faster these days, but even so, it's remarkable
01:13that much of the framing for Labour's current conference
01:16has been whether Starmer could cling on as leader.
01:19This is, in part, a manifestation of a political class
01:23that's become too addicted to the adrenaline rush of catastrophising.
01:28But there is rationality here, because Starmer has been forced
01:32to sack too many colleagues for incompetence or worse.
01:35Also, too many of Labour's policies about everything from welfare to tax
01:39to heinous child sex abuse by grooming gangs have been misguided.
01:44The biggest failure, though, has been by his choice, not cock-up.
01:49Starmer has repeatedly said he isn't interested in doing the vision thing,
01:52of telling a simple, powerful story about the better Britain he wants to create.
01:57That's provided a golden opportunity for the great communicator of this age,
02:02Nigel Farage, who has that knack of reflecting back
02:06to millions of citizens their grievances about immigration
02:09or living standards or crime or diversity policies.
02:13Finally, though, and thanks to Farage, we may have had a glimpse
02:17of an authentic and even passionate Starmer in his decision
02:20to reframe the purpose of his government as the demolition of reform,
02:25which he describes as the battle of this era.
02:28It's not without risks.
02:30His denigration of Farage's determination to expel hundreds of thousands
02:34of migrants who've lived and worked here for years as immoral and racist
02:39sounds to many Farage supporters as a denigration of them as racist.
02:44If they take umbrage, they'll never vote for Starmer's Labour.
02:47But almost no-one will vote for Labour if he can't, in simple language,
02:52describe the point of his government.
02:55And perhaps Farage has helped supply Starmer with much-needed ambition and mojo.
03:03This, therefore, is a convenient point to bring in Pippa in Liverpool.
03:06Pippa, tell us what we can expect from the PM's speech tomorrow.
03:11Well, Robert, tonight the Prime Minister is thinking about what big messages
03:15he wants to land with the public in that speech.
03:17The battle with reform and the populist right,
03:20but also trying to deliver a more hopeful tone on the economy,
03:23despite the bleak outlook.
03:25And while his main focus is on the public,
03:29given his rocky start, he's also going to have to face down his internal critics.
03:32I spoke to Andy Burnham earlier.
03:34It doesn't look like there's going to be an imminent challenge,
03:36but it does give the Labour Party an idea
03:39of what an alternative leader might look like.
03:42So Keir Starmer will want to show the party tomorrow
03:45that he is still their man.
03:47Thanks so much, Pippa.
03:51Now, the battle between Labour and reform has become all-out war
03:55over the best approach to respond to concerns about immigration.
03:59As I already mentioned, Starmer has rediscovered why he's Prime Minister
04:02by laying into reform's proposed abolition of migrants' rights
04:06after five years to apply for indefinite leave to remain in the country.
04:11Under reform's plans, they would have to reapply to stay here every five years,
04:19and there would be much more onerous conditions for remaining,
04:23including a salary threshold thought to be around £60,000.
04:27This would bring the prospect of spouses and vulnerable people being expelled,
04:31which Starmer has called racist.
04:33But Labour, too, is making it much harder for economic migrants to stay here.
04:39The qualification time for permanent settlement would be double to ten years.
04:43Applicants would have to speak English fluently,
04:45they couldn't be living on benefits,
04:46and they would have to give back to their communities by volunteering.
04:51Starmer may insist that Labour's clampdown would be less severe than reforms,
04:55but Home Secretary Shibana Mahmood left no-one in any doubt today
04:59that many Labour supporters will be made uncomfortable by her plans.
05:04So what does polling show about why all parties, including the Tories,
05:09are competing to be the toughest on migration?
05:13A survey done by Merlin Strategy breaks down different voters
05:16by whether they are socially and economically conservative or liberal.
05:20What's striking is that only two groups of voters,
05:24those down here, are currently in favour of relatively high levels of immigration
05:29or indeed measures to combat climate change.
05:33They are those who still define themselves as Labour supporters,
05:37they're a dwindling bunch,
05:38and those who've switched their allegiance to so-called more progressive parties
05:41like the Lib Dems and Greens.
05:43This explains why Mahmood is trying to make Labour credible
05:46on restricting immigration numbers,
05:49because she wants all these people up here to give Labour a hearing.
05:53But that may not be a rational policy,
05:55because this seemingly small green dot down here,
06:00the Labour switches to the likes of, as I say,
06:02the Greens and the Liberal Democrats,
06:04it's the big reason why Labour's poll rating has slumped.
06:07And these people won't be tempted back by a closed borders policy.
06:13Back to you, Pippa.
06:14Emily, does this new stance on immigration chime with Labour values?
06:21How comfortable do you feel about it?
06:25I don't think we need a closed borders policy,
06:28and I don't think it sounds like a closed borders policy.
06:31I think it sounds like it's really important to assimilate,
06:35and it's really important for our communities to stick together.
06:37So, if you're a new migrant into the country,
06:41it is important that you learn English.
06:43And rather than find yourself isolated,
06:46it's a good idea if you are able to get involved in your community.
06:51And, I mean, in my experience, certainly,
06:53when I've had people come to see me,
06:55when I've had people from the asylum hotels coming to see me,
06:57and they're doing voluntary work,
06:59they're actually...
06:59Their mental health is better,
07:00and they make many more connections within the community.
07:03And it helps them, but it also helps the community
07:06to understand who they are and what their place is,
07:08and it makes them more human.
07:10And do you think it is just rhetoric, or is it...
07:13And do you hope that in practice,
07:15it's maybe actually not that tough?
07:17Well, I think there will obviously be lots of questions.
07:20So, this question about, you know, claiming no benefits.
07:23Now, does that mean in-work benefits?
07:25So, if you're working, but if you're living in central London
07:28and you really can't make the rent,
07:30because very few people can,
07:32ordinary working people,
07:33then is it right for you to be getting assistance with your rent?
07:37I don't really know what that will then mean.
07:40So, there's lots of questions.
07:41There's lots of questions.
07:42I understand the principles,
07:43but it's just really a question of, kind of,
07:45how is it going to work in practice?
07:47But, yeah, we should not be having a closed borders policy.
07:49I think that would... I mean, and we're not.
07:52And, Jeremy, does nobody want to make the positive case
07:55for immigration anymore?
07:56Well, I make the positive case for immigration.
07:59I think that we benefit as a country
08:01when we attract the brightest and best from all over the world.
08:05But the reality is that the social contract,
08:08which has made us that kind of country for decades, even centuries,
08:13is now fraying really badly,
08:15because voters are spooked by the fact
08:18that we are not controlling illegal migration.
08:20So, I am very, very clear.
08:23We must sort out illegal migration.
08:26I think Shabana Mahmood's language
08:28will be far more likely to reassure those voters than Keir Starmer's.
08:32I think Keir Starmer's strategy is a strange one.
08:34He's basically saying,
08:35don't vote reform because they're evil.
08:38But, actually, what those voters care about
08:40is success in controlling illegal migration.
08:44And they don't think Labour is delivering on that.
08:46They can see that, in America, it's gone down 90%.
08:49In the EU, it's gone down 21%.
08:52But, for us, it's gone up a third.
08:54And that's what's bothering people.
08:58And, Emily, as a lawyer,
09:00what do you think the Home Secretary is referring to
09:02when she says she wants to question assumptions
09:05and legal constraints that have lasted for a generation?
09:09Don't know. Let's wait and see.
09:11I mean, I think...
09:13But can I just pick up on what Jeremy said?
09:14Because I just think there's such a big gap, you know,
09:16between what reform is saying
09:19and I do think the need to...
09:22We can't have our borders completely out of control.
09:25I mean, that's... You know, I think...
09:26I think that kind of insecurity that people feel
09:29when they feel that there is no control at all
09:31over who comes in and who goes out of the country
09:33is a completely understandable emotion.
09:37And everybody, surely, in the country feels that.
09:39There's a difference between that
09:40and just being downright nasty to new migrants,
09:44which is what reform want to do.
09:46And do you think she might have been referring
09:47to the European Convention of Human Rights
09:49and redrawing that in some way?
09:51Maybe. I mean, maybe, let's see.
09:53I mean, there's quite a lot of talk about that
09:55in lots of different countries.
09:57And, you know, the argument being
09:59that it was passed a long time ago,
10:01that the situation has now changed.
10:03And, you know, and maybe that's an ambition
10:05which is worth certainly trying.
10:07But the difficulty always is,
10:09is that when you try to change many of these things,
10:11you just end up fraying such agreement as there is.
10:15And people sort of spill off in all different directions
10:17because there are lots of different aspirations
10:20when it comes to, oh, let's change
10:21the European Convention on Human Rights.
10:23Robert.
10:24Thanks so much, Pippa.
10:25So, weren't we surprised that when I spoke
10:27to the Deputy Prime Minister
10:29and Justice Secretary David Lammy,
10:30I talked quite a lot about this whole migration issue.
10:33I began by asking him whether he was completely comfortable
10:36with the Home Secretary's tough new conditions
10:39when migrants apply for indefinite leave
10:42to remain in this country.
10:45I think what the Home Secretary has announced today
10:48is really good news because she is ensuring
10:51that those who have indefinite leave to remain,
10:53i.e. you've, you know, you've made your asylum claim,
10:56you can stay in the country,
10:57but you're on a path to citizenship,
10:59that that is an earned citizenship.
11:01And she's talking about work,
11:04she's talking about national insurance contributions,
11:06she's talking about the ability to speak English well,
11:09she's talking about making a contribution to society.
11:12I do think that that will chime with the general public.
11:16I mean, you do speak often,
11:19and you did so again, actually, in The Observer
11:21at the weekend, of your pride
11:24at being the child of immigrants.
11:27And again, you pointed out, again at the weekend,
11:30that your dad left at the age of 12.
11:33Are you absolutely confident
11:35that if your new rules had been in place
11:38when you were a child,
11:40your family would have met these criteria
11:43about, you know, not being on benefits,
11:45making a contribution to the community, and so on?
11:48Well, actually, you know,
11:50if I'm thinking back to the Windrush generation,
11:52and that's not just, of course,
11:54those who came from the Caribbean,
11:55it's those who came from the wider,
11:58what was then the Empire,
11:59India, Pakistan, Nigeria.
12:02They came, and boy, oh boy,
12:04did they make a contribution.
12:06They made a contribution in London Underground,
12:08in the railway system,
12:09in the National Health Service,
12:10which was built largely by those West Indian nurses
12:14that came.
12:15I completely agree.
12:16But those people still, like all of us,
12:18fell on hard times through no fault of their own.
12:21And I guess my question is,
12:23when a family falls on hard times
12:25for no fault of their own,
12:26are we confident that this system
12:28won't discriminate against them?
12:31Oh, look, let's be absolutely clear.
12:33The Windrush generation were people
12:35who made an immense contribution to this country.
12:38Yeah.
12:38Who were then, people like my parents,
12:41who were then deported, detained,
12:44stripped of their right to work,
12:45stripped of their health care.
12:47And in fact, what I think Nigel Farage
12:49is now proposing is something similar.
12:52That he'll line you up,
12:54if you're from India, you go back,
12:56if you're from the Caribbean, you go back,
12:58if you're French, you can stay.
13:00That is something quite, quite different
13:02to what the Home Secretary is proposing.
13:04It's wrong, it's immoral,
13:06it feels to me like the Windrush scandal
13:09all over again and we should stand against it.
13:11So, you agree that, therefore,
13:14you know, you agree with the Prime Minister
13:15that reforms abolition,
13:17the way it's proposing to abolish
13:19indefinite leave to remain,
13:20is racist.
13:23But are those people,
13:25and, you know, there appear to be,
13:27you know, quite a lot of them,
13:29if they support the policy,
13:31are they racist?
13:33I'm always keen to try to play the ball,
13:36not the man,
13:37and, therefore, the ball in this instance
13:40is the policy.
13:42And the policy sounds racially discriminating
13:45to all with the same mind
13:47who are listening to it.
13:49And I think it's important
13:51when values guides my politics
13:54and the Labour Party's politics
13:56that we call it out for what it is.
13:57It's for the public, then,
13:58to make up their mind,
13:59but it's discriminatory
14:01and we shouldn't do that.
14:03But if it is racist
14:04and if it is discriminatory,
14:05I'm sorry to press you on this,
14:08but, you know,
14:08people will want to know,
14:09are you basically saying
14:11that if you're not a racist
14:12and you support it,
14:13you just don't understand the policy
14:14and, therefore,
14:15you're a bit thick?
14:16I'm not getting into that.
14:19Look, I'm absolutely clear.
14:22If you've got no right
14:23to be in the country,
14:24you must be deported
14:25back to the country
14:26from which you came.
14:27As Foreign Secretary,
14:28I deported that.
14:29Increase was 14%.
14:3035,000 people left our country.
14:33I'm proud of that
14:34because people who shouldn't be here
14:35shouldn't be here.
14:36Having said that,
14:37if you have indefinite leave to remain,
14:40it's because your case
14:41has been processed
14:42and you have a right to be here.
14:44Citizenship is something else entirely.
14:47What Farage is saying
14:49is that you have no right to be here,
14:50even though your claim has been processed.
14:53Out you go.
14:54And worse than that,
14:55some people he'll kick out,
14:57the Indian, the Nigerian.
14:59Some people get to stay.
15:00I think he's saying,
15:01the French, Europeans can stay.
15:03That is clearly discriminatory.
15:04And I'm going to call it what it is.
15:06You know, you say
15:07you want to play the ball,
15:08not the man.
15:09In 2014,
15:10I don't know if you remember this,
15:11you did call Nigel Farage
15:13racist.
15:15Do you not stand by that now, then?
15:17Look, that was 11 years ago.
15:20There's a lot of water
15:21under the bridge between now and then.
15:24I'm looking at the policy proposals
15:25he's putting forward today,
15:27examining them in depth today,
15:30holding them up to the light.
15:31I don't want to caricature him
15:34and obscure the implications
15:36of his policy proposal
15:38on a whole range of issues.
15:40That's what we'll be doing right up to the next election.
15:43But would you like to say he's not a racist, then?
15:46I've said to you, Robert,
15:48that I'm concentrating on his policies.
15:52I think that is the way to go.
15:54Hold those up to the light.
15:56The personality stuff,
15:58in the end,
15:59in my experience,
16:00and I've been in politics 25 years,
16:02it doesn't really get you very far.
16:04It's about what his proposals are
16:06for the people of this country.
16:08And then there's a couple of other things
16:10I need to move on to,
16:11but just finally on this issue
16:13of indefinite leave to remain,
16:17the Home Secretary said in her speech
16:18that she needed to question
16:21what she called the assumptions
16:22and legal constraints
16:24that have lasted for a generation
16:26in this area of immigration.
16:28Do you know what she's referring to?
16:30Does she mean the European Convention
16:32on Human Rights?
16:34I think she's joining a debate
16:36that they're having across European countries
16:38like Denmark,
16:39like Italy,
16:40like France,
16:42where they are looking
16:43at the way that people are using,
16:46for example,
16:46parts of Article 8
16:48to claim right to a family life.
16:52And there is a debate
16:53now amongst European leaders
16:57and European Home Secretaries,
17:00Justice Secretaries,
17:00foreign ministers,
17:02about the articulation
17:03of the European Convention
17:05of Human Rights
17:06to meet today's challenges.
17:08and she's joining that debate
17:09and I would want to work
17:11alongside her with that.
17:13And, I mean,
17:14you're a lawyer.
17:15Keir Starmer
17:16is a lawyer.
17:19Some have said to me
17:20that actually
17:21if there's going to be
17:22reform of the European Convention
17:24on Human Rights,
17:25you're the right people
17:26to lead it.
17:27Well,
17:29what I don't think
17:31is right
17:32is just wholesale
17:33pulling out
17:34of the European Convention
17:35of Human Rights.
17:36You know,
17:36it's bizarre
17:37that the party of Churchill
17:38is now proposing that.
17:40I say that
17:40because it would
17:41completely
17:42cut across
17:44the Good Friday Agreement
17:45and bring back
17:46the troubles
17:46in Northern Ireland.
17:47but looking closely
17:50at the implications,
17:51the way that people
17:52may be
17:53playing the system,
17:55that is something
17:56that I'm quite willing
17:57to do
17:58with fellow
17:59justice ministers
18:00who are also
18:01raising these concerns
18:03when we come together.
18:05Now,
18:06you immerse yourself
18:07as Foreign Secretary
18:08in the tragedy
18:09unfolding in Gaza.
18:11As you know,
18:12there is a
18:13possible plan
18:15when there
18:16is a ceasefire
18:17in peace
18:17for Tony Blair
18:18to go in
18:19as a,
18:19I don't know,
18:20a kind of viceroy,
18:21a sort of interim
18:22governor of Gaza.
18:24Do you think
18:25that would be
18:25a good idea?
18:27Tony did a lot
18:28of work
18:28right from the beginning
18:29on what would happen
18:30on the day after
18:31and he was a little bit
18:31critical that there
18:32was so much focus
18:33on a ceasefire,
18:34no one would actually
18:35be able to solve this
18:36until they completely
18:38dealt with what happens
18:40at the governance
18:40of Gaza afterwards
18:41in order to get
18:42to that ceasefire
18:42and I think he was
18:43right about that.
18:45Now, look,
18:45the Palestinian Authority
18:47has got to be part
18:47of the mix here
18:48and there's got to be
18:48a transition
18:49to the Palestinian Authority.
18:51We're talking about
18:51the administration,
18:52we're talking about
18:53the governance,
18:54we're talking about
18:54the policing,
18:55we're talking about
18:55the rebuilding of Gaza.
18:57I think that's going
18:58to take a lot more
18:59than one individual.
19:00I think it's probably
19:01got to include
19:02Palestinians
19:03and Arab states.
19:05I've seen Tony's name
19:07in the mix
19:08now he may be
19:11one of many
19:12but I think
19:12when you look
19:13at all that's
19:13got to be done
19:14it's got to have
19:16some Palestinian,
19:17some Arab context
19:19to it
19:19or it's not going
19:20to work.
19:21I mean,
19:21it sounds like
19:21you're saying
19:22though you would
19:23be in favour
19:23of being part
19:24of that interim
19:25government.
19:27Finally,
19:28you...
19:28I'm very suspicious
19:29of the term
19:30viceroy.
19:30I don't think
19:31that going back
19:32to a mandate
19:32is going to work,
19:34Robert,
19:34so I really
19:35don't.
19:35I don't think
19:36that's what
19:36the Palestinian
19:36people want
19:37or is in
19:38the interest
19:39of Israel.
19:39That sounds
19:40completely rational
19:42to me.
19:42And then just
19:42finally,
19:43you praised
19:44Angela Rayner
19:45today.
19:46What is her
19:47way back
19:48to the front
19:48line of politics?
19:50Oh, look,
19:51Angela Rayner
19:52is a woman
19:53in her 40s.
19:56She is going
19:57to continue
19:57to make a big
19:58contribution
19:59to the Labour
20:00movement
20:00in the years
20:02ahead.
20:02I have no
20:03doubt about
20:04that.
20:05I described
20:05her as a
20:06working-class
20:06hero.
20:07She's a beacon
20:07for working-class
20:08women across
20:09our country.
20:11She made a
20:11huge contribution
20:12on planning,
20:13a huge contribution
20:14on employment
20:14rights,
20:15and she will
20:16continue to play
20:16a role.
20:17Back in the
20:18Cabinet?
20:18I'll let her
20:18articulate how
20:19she does that
20:19in the months
20:20ahead.
20:21Back in the
20:22Cabinet?
20:22I could see
20:23Angela Rayner
20:25in a future
20:26Cabinet, of course.
20:27I think people
20:27have tremendous
20:28sympathy for the
20:29situation she
20:30found herself in
20:31and the way
20:31that she sought
20:32to defend
20:33her son
20:33particularly.
20:35Deputy Prime
20:35Minister David
20:36Lammy, very
20:36good to see
20:37you and
20:38thanks for
20:39joining us
20:39tonight.
20:43Now, you
20:44probably noticed
20:45that I said
20:46in that interview
20:47that somebody
20:47very clever
20:47had said to
20:48me that the
20:49perfect person
20:50as a lawyer
20:50to renegotiate
20:51the European
20:51Convention of
20:52Human Rights
20:52with other
20:53of our
20:54overseas
20:55partners was
20:56Keir Starmer.
20:57In fact,
20:58Jeremy Hunt
20:58has just
20:58reminded me
20:59that that
20:59very clever
21:00person was
21:01him because
21:01it's in
21:02his latest
21:02book and
21:03we talked
21:03about it.
21:04Anyway,
21:05actually, I'm
21:06going to move
21:06on a bit
21:06from that
21:06because since
21:07I spoke
21:08to the
21:10Deputy Prime
21:11Minister,
21:11we have had
21:12this announcement
21:13of what he's
21:14describing as a
21:15sort of historic
21:16peace settlement
21:16for Gaza,
21:17which he says
21:18he's agreed
21:18with the
21:19Israeli Prime
21:20Minister Benjamin
21:21Netanyahu.
21:22I want to talk
21:23to both of you
21:24about this
21:26former Foreign
21:26Secretary,
21:27Jeremy Hunt,
21:28but also I'm
21:29just going to
21:29start with you,
21:31Emily,
21:32because you
21:32actually have
21:33come on the
21:33show saying
21:34that you
21:35were hopeful
21:37that Trump
21:38would be the
21:39person who
21:40could bring
21:40peace to
21:41Gaza.
21:42Do you think
21:43this is the
21:44big moment?
21:45Do you think
21:45Hamas will
21:45agree to this?
21:49I'm glad you
21:50were listening.
21:51But yes,
21:52I did.
21:53I think I spoke
21:54about it in
21:54February.
21:57It's great news.
21:58Of course it's
21:58great news.
21:59My God,
22:00we really need
22:01the killing to
22:02stop and as
22:03soon as we can
22:04the better.
22:05So I'm very
22:07pleased that if
22:08this is really
22:09true, that it's
22:10going to stop
22:11in 72 hours,
22:12then that's got
22:13to be a good
22:13thing.
22:14Now the question
22:15is where do we
22:15go from there?
22:17But we need to
22:18have Trump
22:18involved.
22:19And I think,
22:20I don't know if I
22:20said this to you,
22:21but I said it to
22:21other journalists
22:22and I hope they
22:23were listening
22:24to, but during
22:26Trump and
22:27Starmer's conference,
22:29although everybody
22:30was kind of
22:30focused on,
22:31oh, Donald Trump
22:32doesn't agree with
22:33Keir Starmer
22:34recognising
22:34Palestine, I
22:35said, but listen,
22:36the most important
22:37thing was Keir
22:38Starmer said
22:38publicly that there
22:40were teams from
22:41Britain and teams
22:41from America that
22:42were working
22:43together to try
22:44to put together
22:45a peace process
22:46and to put more
22:47energy into the
22:47peace process.
22:49And if that is
22:49happening, that is
22:50very good news
22:51because we have to
22:52involve the
22:52Americans because
22:53that's the only
22:53way forward.
22:54Jeremy, I mean,
22:56obviously you've
22:57previously been
22:58involved in other
23:00intractable aspects
23:03of the tension
23:04between Hamas
23:06and the Israelis.
23:08We haven't yet
23:09heard from Hamas.
23:12Can we be confident
23:13that they would
23:14agree to this?
23:15Well, we can't be
23:16confident, but as
23:17Emily says, we
23:18should certainly hope.
23:19I mean, the issue
23:20here is that there
23:20is, you know,
23:22less than zero
23:23trust between Hamas
23:25and the Israelis.
23:25It's massively
23:26negative.
23:27I mean, the Israelis
23:27even tried to bomb
23:29Hamas negotiators
23:31recently when they
23:31were talking about
23:32a potential settlement.
23:34But I have to say
23:35that, obviously,
23:37I'm not someone who
23:38supported Tony Blair's
23:39government, but I
23:39think Tony Blair could
23:40make a very good
23:41contribution.
23:41He did a very good
23:44job in Northern
23:45Ireland of getting
23:46trust between two
23:48parties who had
23:50absolutely no time
23:51for each other.
23:53And I think in this
23:54case, the other
23:55thing that he could
23:55do is somehow
23:56you've got to get
23:57a stable peace in
23:59Gaza and a road
24:02map to a longer
24:03term peace, which
24:04most of us have
24:05thought until now
24:06would be a two-state
24:07solution.
24:07Now, the Israelis are
24:08saying that is off
24:09the table, but
24:10somehow if we can
24:11find a pathway
24:12forward to a
24:13longer-term peace,
24:14well, I think that
24:15is something Blair
24:16could make a
24:17contribution towards.
24:18And Emily, Tony
24:19Blair is somebody
24:20who divides your
24:21party.
24:21Do you think he
24:23is the right person
24:25to play quite a
24:26big role as a
24:27sort of governor of
24:27Gazna for maybe
24:29a few years?
24:33I honestly don't
24:34care, Robert.
24:35What I care is
24:36what works.
24:37So if Tony Blair
24:38is the person that
24:39can bring people
24:40together, that
24:41can bring the
24:42Israelis on
24:42board, that the
24:44Palestinians can
24:44have trust in, that
24:46the Americans can
24:46have trust in, let's
24:47go for it.
24:48If he isn't, then
24:49get somebody else.
24:51But in any event, it
24:52won't be one person.
24:53It will need to be a
24:54huge team and it
24:55will need to be an
24:55international effort.
24:57And we need to make
24:58sure that Britain is
24:58absolutely at the
24:59forefront of it, as
25:01are the Americans, but
25:02as are many of our
25:03European and Arab
25:04partners.
25:04We need to make
25:05sure that there is a
25:06huge effort.
25:08There is so much to
25:09gain.
25:10Jeremy refers to
25:12Northern Ireland.
25:12Remember, everybody
25:13used to say that
25:14Northern Ireland was an
25:15impossible problem to
25:16solve, until suddenly it
25:17wasn't.
25:18We can find a peace in
25:20Gaza, but we've really
25:21got to try.
25:22We've got to believe that
25:23politics can find an
25:24answer.
25:25Emily, Jeremy, I have so
25:26much more I need to talk
25:27to both of you about
25:28after the break, when we
25:30will also be joined, live
25:32from Liverpool, by the
25:33favourite to be the new
25:34deputy leader of the
25:36Labour Party, Lucy
25:37Powell.
25:38And just before I go, I
25:38want to reassure Emily
25:39that I hang on her every
25:40word.
25:41She doesn't have to be
25:42surprised that I remember
25:43what she said.
25:44See you in a minute.
25:45Welcome back.
25:57Now, we are going to
25:58talk elections, and
26:00elections for leaders and
26:02deputy leaders.
26:02And one thing that has
26:04gone right for Starmer is
26:06that the so-called King of
26:07the North, Andy Burnham,
26:08Mayor of Greater
26:09Manchester, he went into
26:10the conference making his
26:11case, many would say, to
26:13replace Starmer as
26:14Prime Minister sooner
26:15rather than later.
26:16But in the face of
26:17criticism throughout the
26:18conference, I encountered
26:19a bit of it that he's
26:20been a bit too disloyal.
26:22He said today that
26:22Starmer is the right
26:24person to lead Labour
26:25in the country.
26:26Even so, exclusive polling
26:28from Labour List and
26:29Servation shows that
26:30among Labour members,
26:31Burnham is massively more
26:33popular than other
26:34potential leadership
26:36candidates.
26:37And poor old Wes over
26:39here.
26:39For years, people thought
26:40he was the favourite to
26:41succeed, but he obviously
26:42needs to spend a bit more
26:43time schmoozing local
26:45party members.
26:46If there won't be a
26:47leadership contest this
26:48side of May's local and
26:50national elections, there
26:51is an important competition
26:53going on to replace, to
26:56choose Angela Rayner's
26:57successor as deputy leader.
26:58We told you last week that
26:59Lucy Powell, who was sacked
27:01from the government by
27:01Keir Starmer, was well
27:03ahead of his preferred
27:04candidate, the Education
27:05Secretary, Bridget
27:06Phillips.
27:06And, well, Labour List and
27:08Servation have done a second
27:09survey of Labour members and
27:10Powell has extended her lead,
27:12you can see here, to more
27:13than 30 percentage points.
27:15There's still weeks to go,
27:17but Labour members are
27:18clearly signalling that they
27:19want the new deputy leader to
27:20put pressure on Starmer to do
27:23what they want, rather than
27:25them taking orders from him.
27:27And Lucy is with Pippa right
27:30now.
27:33That's so interesting, Robert.
27:34I've got just the person here.
27:36Lucy, you were obviously running
27:37for the deputy leadership after
27:39having left the cabinet, and
27:40you said you wouldn't be
27:41chucking rocks at the
27:43government, but isn't that
27:44exactly what Labour members
27:45will want you to do?
27:47No, I think Labour members want
27:49us to be more successful.
27:51They want us to be a better
27:52government, because clearly
27:54things haven't been going all
27:55that well when you look at the
27:57polls.
27:57There's no sugarcoating of
27:59that, and we've made mistakes
28:01through the last year, and
28:02they've taken away from the
28:04many good things that we've
28:05been doing.
28:06So I think party members and
28:09the public actually want us to
28:10be a better version of
28:11ourselves, to give a better
28:13account of ourselves.
28:14Who are we governing for, and
28:16why are we doing what we're
28:17doing, and what is the
28:19purpose of this Labour
28:20government?
28:21And I think I can help with
28:22that, and that's what I think
28:23Labour party members want.
28:25And if that means, at times,
28:27speaking truth to power,
28:29having the difficult
28:29conversations, ideally in
28:32private, you know, as part of
28:33the family, so that we can get
28:34a course correction, then I
28:36will do that, and I think
28:37that's what members want as
28:39well.
28:39Now, your arrival for the job,
28:40Bridget Phillipson, said that she
28:42thought it might be a risk to
28:44the stability of the party having
28:46a deputy leader outside of the
28:47cabinet.
28:48Do you agree?
28:48No, absolutely not.
28:51You know, look, this is a party
28:52role.
28:53This is a role that people are
28:55elected by the members.
28:56It always has been.
28:57It always will be.
28:58The leader and the deputy
28:59leader are elected by members.
29:01We're not appointed.
29:02The deputy leader is not
29:03appointed by the prime
29:05minister, and it's a chance for
29:06members to have their say.
29:07And actually, I think there's a
29:08real value added that I can bring
29:10now, in addition to the
29:11cabinet, having this political
29:13role outside of cabinet, but
29:15working alongside cabinet,
29:17bringing the politics into the
29:18conversation at all turns,
29:20keeping us connected with our
29:21communities, keeping us
29:22connected with our members,
29:25and having that bridge to the
29:27party membership full time,
29:28because this isn't going to be
29:30someone who is deputy prime
29:31minister.
29:31Neither Bridget or I are going to
29:33be deputy prime minister.
29:34We're going to be the elected
29:35leader of the, deputy leader
29:37rather, of the Labour Party,
29:40and that is not a role that
29:42government recognises.
29:43So it is a party role.
29:44Now, everybody I speak to here
29:46in Liverpool, from the prime
29:47minister down, refers to
29:48Nigel Farage's immigration
29:49policy as racist, but don't
29:52sort of want to call the
29:53people who support them
29:54racist.
29:55How does that work?
29:56Well, look, I think that's
29:57the...
29:58Well, everyone's saying the
29:59same thing, aren't they?
30:00I think, you know, targeting
30:01people who are in this country
30:04legally and fairly, who've come
30:06here in good faith and have,
30:08you know, contributed to this
30:10country, the idea that we would
30:12deport them, round them up and
30:14deport them, is racist because
30:17we're targeting, you know,
30:18immigrants.
30:19And, you know, what I've been
30:20saying this week is that we
30:21really need to rest back from
30:24Nigel Farage and his ilk, this
30:25political megaphone, because he's
30:27been setting the terms of the
30:28debate.
30:28What about the people that are
30:29backing him then?
30:30Are they being manipulated?
30:31No, look, I think Nigel Farage has
30:33been sort of trying to make the
30:34weather, hasn't he?
30:35And I think he's done that
30:36successfully, because we've
30:37seeded the debate to him.
30:41I'm sure most of the people that
30:42are supporting Nigel Farage and
30:44reform don't know about
30:45individual policies.
30:47We've got to call out Nigel Farage,
30:48but also, I think what I'm hearing
30:51loud and clear is people want to
30:53know, what are we doing?
30:54What's the Labour Party?
30:55What's the Labour government doing?
30:57Who are we doing it for?
30:58They don't want us to keep going on
30:59about Nigel Farage either,
31:00actually.
31:01They want us to set out much
31:02more clearly what is our agenda
31:04and what are we doing to fix the
31:05problems the country faces.
31:07And one of the problems the
31:07country faces is obviously child
31:09poverty, and both you and
31:10Bridget Philipson think that the
31:12two-child limit has to go.
31:14But polling suggests that the
31:15British public is actually in
31:17favour of it.
31:18Is that a problem?
31:19No, I don't think it's a
31:20problem, because, look, I think
31:21we've got to be much clearer about
31:24who we stand for in this country
31:26and in whose interests are we
31:28governing.
31:28And people are not seeing that
31:31clearly enough from us.
31:32And addressing child poverty and
31:34helping some of the most
31:35vulnerable in our society, those
31:38who are struggling to get by,
31:39that is to the core of what any
31:40Labour government should be
31:42about.
31:42So that's why I've been saying
31:44all along we've got to be much
31:45clearer that we are in favour of
31:47a policy that's going to address
31:48that.
31:49You were leader of the House of
31:51Commons when Keir Starmer's
31:53welfare reforms fell apart.
31:54Pat McFadden, the Welfare
31:56Secretary, seems to want to come
31:57back for more cuts.
31:58Will the party wear that?
32:00Not.
32:01It depends in what form they've
32:03done.
32:03Look, I think we've absolutely
32:04got to learn the lessons of what
32:07happened with the welfare bill.
32:09We made proposals that weren't
32:11fully thought through.
32:13We were trying to kind of rush
32:14them along.
32:16They were done, or they were
32:17seeming to be done on the basis
32:18of needing to make cuts, not on
32:20the basis for delivering better
32:22outcomes and reforming the system.
32:24The system does need reform, but
32:26you've got to take people with
32:27you.
32:27When you're doing wholesale
32:28reform like that, you've got to
32:30do it carefully, you've got to do
32:31it slowly and take people with you
32:34and build consensus.
32:34And the devil's always in the
32:36detail.
32:37So that's why one of the things
32:39that I'll be doing, as I've done
32:40before, of being the sort of shop
32:42steward of the backbenches for the
32:43last year or so, is making sure that
32:45we're taking elected representatives
32:47parliament with us on these kind of
32:50issues.
32:51Now, we saw on Screenie about Andy
32:53Burnham and how popular he's amongst
32:55the members.
32:55He seems to have backtracked a bit
32:57today and says that Keir Starmer is
32:59now the best person to be Prime
33:00Minister.
33:01Does Keir Starmer need to offer more
33:03hope?
33:04And are you 100% confident that he
33:06will lead the party into the next
33:08election?
33:09Well, I really hope he does.
33:10Look, we were elected only 15 months
33:13ago on a mandate of change and he was
33:15elected as our Prime Minister.
33:17But one of the things that I think
33:19everyone's crying out for is that we've
33:22got this broad movement, which is one
33:23of our great strengths, is that we draw
33:25on the talents right across our movement.
33:27Including Andy Burnham.
33:28Including Andy Burnham, who is an
33:31incredibly talented politician.
33:32We draw on all the talents across our
33:34movement.
33:35I think that will make us make better
33:36decisions.
33:37It will give a clearer sense of who we
33:39are and who we're governing for.
33:41And I think as Deputy Leader, I can
33:43bring that to the table in service of
33:46this Labour government and Keir Starmer
33:47Prime Minister because I want us to be a
33:49better version of ourselves and a more
33:51successful government.
33:52Lucy, thank you.
33:54Robert.
33:55Yeah, fascinating.
33:55I'm absolutely certain that Keir Starmer
33:58is looking forward to having the self-
34:02described shop steward as his deputy.
34:05Jeremy, we have had a remarkable few days where
34:10people have said this conference was make or break
34:12for Keir Starmer and he's plainly got an important speech
34:16to make tomorrow.
34:17But we've got the Conservative conference next week.
34:20Some people are saying that's make or break for
34:23Kimmy Badenock.
34:24Is it as big a moment for her as they say?
34:28I don't think so.
34:29I don't detect any mood inside the Conservative Party to have our
34:33fifth leader in four years.
34:35I think people know that we need to give Kimmy time.
34:39How much time do you think?
34:40Because we're still waiting for a lot of the important big pillars
34:44of policy.
34:45Yes, but remember, just over a year ago, we had the worst defeat
34:50in our history.
34:51And the country are not going to rush back and say we got it wrong
34:54in a year.
34:56And what we need to do is what all opposition parties do in our system
35:01when it's working well, which is come up with solutions to the big
35:04problems that we face.
35:05And at the moment, we haven't had that from Labour.
35:07That's why, as Lucy was rightly saying, they've lost a lot of support
35:12in the polls.
35:13And I think as Kimmy starts to do that, we will get back in the race.
35:18I don't know.
35:18Is Emily with us?
35:21Because there was...
35:21OK.
35:22Well, before we go to Emily, as an outside observer,
35:31and I don't know if you can be dispassionate about this,
35:33but do you think Labour should think about replacing Starmer?
35:39My own view is that, you know, Starmer is a decent man,
35:45but he is really struggling.
35:46And I actually don't think it is just about the vision thing,
35:50which is what you talked about at the top of the show.
35:52I think the real issue is that he was elected to sort out problems
35:56in the economy and on small boats, and neither has happened.
36:00People don't see the big issues really being tackled.
36:04And I think that...
36:06I listened to Rachel Reeves' speech today,
36:08and I felt it was more an argument to the party faithful
36:11that she's not another Tory austerity chancellor,
36:15rather than an argument to the country
36:17about the big decisions that she has in the budget.
36:20And I think there's one very big strategic choice
36:23that Labour has to make.
36:25Do they do welfare reform,
36:27which, if they got the welfare bill down to 2019 levels,
36:30would save about £47 billion a year?
36:34Or are they prepared to come back year in, year out,
36:38with more tax rises that could stifle economic growth?
36:41And I think that what I was expecting
36:43was some kind of sense as to which way they were going to go,
36:47and I left none the wiser.
36:49Well, we're going to come back to the whole tax question
36:51after the next break.
36:53But, Emily, I'm delighted that you are back with us.
36:57Just on Andy Burnham,
36:59the consensus of people I've spoken to,
37:01you know, so-called King of the North,
37:03is that a sort of gentle signalling of his ambitions
37:07would have been the right thing,
37:08but he overplayed his hand.
37:10And, you know, there's a sort of sense
37:13that he was a bit too aggressive
37:14in showing that he wants to succeed.
37:16What's your view?
37:17I kind of feel that Andy will be Andy.
37:24And, you know, he kind of warmed to his theme
37:27and perhaps should have stopped a bit earlier,
37:29but, you know, there we are.
37:31I mean, he's doing a good job as Mayor of Manchester
37:35and presumably will remain Mayor of Manchester for some time
37:39and continue to do a good job.
37:41Do you think he may be Labour leader one day?
37:43I think probably not.
37:48And then...
37:49But then this issue of how safe Keir Starmer is.
37:53First of all, how important is the speech tomorrow?
37:55Oh, I think it is important.
38:00I think it's important that...
38:03I think he has...
38:04I mean, obviously he has two audiences
38:05and it's important to remember them both.
38:08I think that the party faithful comes to this conference
38:11wanting to be enthused
38:12and wanting to hear the message
38:15and why it is we're in politics
38:16and what we're trying to achieve
38:18and hear from the heart
38:19what it is that Labour is about.
38:21And that is very important.
38:24It pulls it together, it inspires us
38:27and I know that if Keir is himself,
38:31he will be able to do that.
38:32But what about the country?
38:33Because Jeremy's point is that Rachel, he feels,
38:35didn't reach out to the country.
38:37How important is it that the Prime Minister does?
38:42Yeah, I mean, I think that what Jeremy was saying
38:44was a lot of nonsense.
38:45I think that he did...
38:46She did reach out to the country too.
38:48I mean, I wasn't in the hall to hear her speech,
38:50but I did hear her on the media round.
38:53I did hear her on the Today programme
38:54and I heard her speak with a passion
38:57and a commitment to doing the right thing
39:00and to leading the country in the right way
39:02that I thought was very impressive, actually.
39:05I mean, really very impressive.
39:07So, you know, she's...
39:09So I think that if we can hear a bit more...
39:11I mean, you know, I do think...
39:13You know I think this.
39:14I think that, you know,
39:15if people say what they mean and mean what they say,
39:17there is an authenticity to them
39:18and people know that they're speaking a truth
39:20and that's what we need to be doing.
39:22We need to be a bit more confident about ourselves,
39:24a bit more labour and go for it.
39:26And a bit more authentic, Emily, obviously.
39:28Now, don't go away,
39:29because after the break,
39:31we will be talking about
39:32one of the most important budgets of our time.
39:34We thought last year's was important.
39:36This one could be even more important
39:37and I'll be talking it over
39:38with a former Chancellor of the Exchequer,
39:40Jeremy Hunt.
39:41You can't afford to miss it.
39:42See you in a second.
39:43Welcome back.
39:54Now, I reported a few days ago
39:56that the Chancellor is facing
39:59a £30 billion hole in the budget.
40:03We've got this huge...
40:04Actually, way more important
40:05than these party conferences we're going through.
40:07The biggest event of the autumn
40:08will be this budget.
40:10So, there we are.
40:10We can see that she's going to have to raise
40:13£30 billion in taxes
40:17because she's basically ruled out spending cuts.
40:20You talked earlier about the importance of welfare cuts.
40:22They can't do those
40:23until after they get the Tim's report.
40:26What's it like, you know, weeks before a budget,
40:30trying to think through
40:31how on earth you raise that kind of money?
40:34And if...
40:34I know you don't want to raise taxes,
40:35but if you had to raise taxes,
40:37which are the ones she should be looking at?
40:39Well, the first thing is,
40:40it is really difficult
40:42and I don't envy Rachel Reeves' position
40:44because she made a big gamble
40:47that things might move in her direction
40:49and they've actually moved against her
40:50and that happens to any chances.
40:52It's nothing to do with...
40:53And she didn't have a cushion of any size, did she?
40:54No.
40:55The so-called headroom was nothing.
40:56No.
40:56And so it is a very, very difficult position
40:59that she finds herself in.
41:00And can I just ask you,
41:01do you feel any sympathy for the fact
41:02that the OBR didn't review the productivity outlook last year?
41:07Because the big contributor to this whole
41:09is that they have decided the economy,
41:11productivity is growing slower than they thought.
41:14They could have made this judgement a year ago.
41:16They could have,
41:16but it's also the way that the bond yields have gone up
41:19and that's meant the cost of debt interest
41:21is going to be higher.
41:22Yeah, and I think it's just very difficult.
41:27That said, I think in this situation,
41:30what we haven't heard from her,
41:31and I hope we do start to hear,
41:33is what is her plan for growth?
41:35Because what people want to know is
41:38how are we going to get out of this?
41:39How are we going to get back to the 2% plus growth
41:42that we were getting before the financial crisis
41:44instead of, you know, hobbling along at 1%?
41:47But given...
41:48I mean, obviously, we all agree growth has got to come up.
41:51What would be the least sort of growth-flattening taxes
41:56she could look at?
41:57Well, I don't think she should be raising taxes,
41:59as you correctly predicted.
42:02In fact, you can see on this graph here,
42:03I made a valiant effort to...
42:04Yeah, well, some would say you gave away money you didn't have.
42:06Those, you know...
42:07But I don't think I did.
42:08The national insurance cuts definitely contributed
42:11to the problem that she inherited.
42:12Well, the OBR said that they met the fiscal rules,
42:14so I don't agree with that.
42:15But my point is...
42:16Though you also had minuscule...
42:18No, no.
42:18What I did was,
42:19I believe by cutting national insurance,
42:21we would grow the economy,
42:23and the OBR backed that up.
42:24And I think if you look around the world...
42:26Well, let's then...
42:27In which case,
42:27let's then look at your productivity record,
42:30because, as I showed you earlier on today,
42:32productivity...
42:33Well, productivity in the UK
42:34has been lamentable
42:36since the financial crisis.
42:39You know, it's grown way less than in America,
42:41but way less than the average of all rich countries.
42:44And that happened on your government's watch.
42:48What did...
42:49Why couldn't you fix it?
42:50Well, actually, I did a lot of things,
42:52but they do take time to feed through.
42:54What I did was perhaps my biggest single tax cut,
42:57which was something called full expensing,
42:58which gives businesses a big tax break
43:01on what they invest in plant and machinery.
43:03And that was to encourage them to invest.
43:06Now, unfortunately,
43:07I don't want to get into trading blows with Rachel,
43:09because she does have a difficult job,
43:11but the rise in employers' national insurance
43:13discouraged them
43:15from making exactly the investments we need.
43:17But they are doing other things you would approve of,
43:20like reforming planning restrictions,
43:22like trying to make regulation less onerous.
43:25And as you yourself pointed out,
43:27it does take a while for this stuff to feed through.
43:29It does.
43:29And the issue you've got,
43:31when you're getting that growth rate up to 2% plus,
43:34what do you do in the five years or so
43:37that it takes for those policies to feed through?
43:40And the only game in town
43:42which happens to be very good for growth,
43:44very good for the economy,
43:45is welfare reform.
43:47And that's why I think if I was in her shoes now,
43:50and what I was hoping to hear today,
43:51maybe we'll hear it from Keir Starmer tomorrow,
43:53is a big argument,
43:55not that we need to cut welfare to save money,
43:57but that actually getting people off welfare into work
44:01is good for the individuals.
44:03At the moment,
44:04we are signing off 1,000 people every single day,
44:07and we're saying they don't even have to look for work.
44:10A lot of these people have mental illness.
44:13It would be far better for their anxiety and their depression
44:15if they were in the world of work,
44:17but we're signing them off work.
44:19And that...
44:20Look, in fairness to the government,
44:21they did announce today a scheme
44:23whereby, you know,
44:24the million young people
44:25who are neither in education or work
44:28will be subsidised to get jobs,
44:30which is a sort of step in the right direction.
44:32But, Robert, it is tinkering.
44:33And in the end,
44:34if we got the welfare bill down to pre-pandemic levels,
44:38we would save enough to avoid any tax rises.
44:40Jeremy, you did say that earlier,
44:41and I just want to bring in Pippa for a second,
44:43because, I mean,
44:45you and I have both been talking to members of the Cabinet
44:47and senior people in Labour about this budget.
44:50And even though this conference is important,
44:52they are saying the budget is probably more important.
44:57Absolutely.
44:57They say it's critical.
44:58And I've been speaking to senior Downing Street people here
45:01who say that while they're focused on party conference
45:04and everything they need to do,
45:05the message they need to deliver to the country
45:06and their party,
45:08they are much more focused.
45:10In fact, it's keeping them up at night,
45:12worrying about the budget,
45:13how they're going to address the really tough
45:16economic backdrop that they face,
45:18which taxes they're going to have to put up.
45:20Lots of speculation here about which ones they will do,
45:23whether they'll be able to stick with the manifesto pledges,
45:25not to put up those fee taxes on working people.
45:28A lot of uncertainty about that.
45:30And, you know, when we go off air,
45:31Albert, I'm going to be going back down to the bar
45:33to see what else I can find out.
45:34Jeremy, out of interest,
45:36do you think if they hadn't made those pledges on income tax and VAT,
45:39they would have still won the election?
45:42Good question.
45:43I think they probably would have,
45:44because we had kind of come to the end of the runway
45:46after 14 years,
45:48and it has boxed them in.
45:50But I think the big call is, you know,
45:52countries with lower taxes grow faster.
45:55Do you buy that or not?
45:57Jeremy, we're going to have this conversation,
45:59I know, many times again.
46:01That's it.
46:01If you've been tempted to feel sorry for Starmer and his woes,
46:04you ought to be weeping for the Tory reader,
46:06Kemi Badenok.
46:06In next week's show,
46:08during Tory party conference,
46:09we'll assess whether she's a political Lazarus
46:11or a Norwegian blue dead parrot.
46:13See you then.
46:14Goodbye.
46:14Goodbye.
46:14Goodbye.
46:14Goodbye.
46:14Goodbye.
46:15Goodbye.
46:16Goodbye.
46:17Goodbye.
46:18Goodbye.
46:19Goodbye.
46:19Goodbye.
46:20Goodbye.
46:20Goodbye.
46:21Goodbye.
46:21Goodbye.
46:22Goodbye.
46:22Goodbye.
46:23Goodbye.
46:23Goodbye.
46:24Goodbye.
46:24Goodbye.
46:25Goodbye.
46:25Goodbye.
46:26Goodbye.
46:27Goodbye.
46:28Goodbye.
46:29Goodbye.
46:30Goodbye.
46:31Goodbye.
46:32Goodbye.
46:33Goodbye.
46:34Goodbye.
46:35Goodbye.
46:36Goodbye.
46:37Goodbye.
46:38Goodbye.
46:39Goodbye.
46:40Goodbye.
46:41Goodbye.
46:42Goodbye.
46:43Goodbye.
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