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Frank Islam speaks with Sunil Prasad, Secretary General, Europe India Chamber of Commerce (EICC), Brussels | Washington Calling
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00:00This is Frankie Slump, Chairman and CEO of FY Investment Group and your host of Washington
00:21Calling. We will interview leading voices from business and politics and journalists
00:25and explore the topics that impact you, the viewer. Today, our guest is Sunil Prasad. Born in India,
00:35has had the university education in Bihar and Odisha, very nice places. And Sunil Prasad has
00:41worked in the Brussels-based largest trade union organization, the International Trade Union
00:47Confederations, ITUC. Right, Sunil? Correct. Correct. Formerly the International
00:56Consideration of Free Trade Union since 1986. While he traveled, Sunil Prasad was the only
01:02Asian expert employed in the ITUC. In the ITUC, he was director for Asia and Pacific and the
01:10Commonwealth Affairs desk. He's the Founder Secretary General of Europe India, Chamber of Commerce.
01:19His resume is about a mile long.
01:25He has a... So let me ask you the question. And thank you for coming to our show. Welcome to our show.
01:32Thank you for having me.
01:33Let me ask you my first question. You are the Founding Secretary General of the
01:40Brussels-based Europe-India Chamber of Commerce. It's a true statement. The trade tie between US
01:46and India and the EU and India. So much in the news these days. How do you see their dynamics in the
01:54disruptive Trump tariff era? And by the way, before I answer, before you answer my question,
02:02what do you think of the Modi's visit to France? Do you think it's going to come out something very nice and
02:08very positive?
02:11I think, you know, Modi, wherever he goes in Europe, Modi is always a rock star. Welcome, he gets in Europe.
02:21He's a rock star.
02:22Rock star. Welcome. To be very, you know, you'll be very surprised to know
02:27that Modi is more popular in all the 27 EU countries than their leader themselves.
02:33Oh, my goodness.
02:36Can you believe that? And also, there's something extraordinary that India has developed with all the 27 EU countries,
02:46separate bilateral relations, both political and bilateral relations.
02:50Is that your wife in the background?
02:53Yes, please. Yes, please. This is my wife.
02:56How are you?
02:58Hello.
02:59How are you? Good to see you.
03:01Good, good. How about you?
03:03Very nice. Thank you very much. You live in Brussels and I've been to I've been to Belgium many, many times.
03:10Please do come next time. You come. You're most welcome.
03:13My wife is a Dutch-American.
03:16Oh, I see.
03:17Okay.
03:17So, as a result of that, I go to Brussels and Belgium all the time.
03:24Anyway, go ahead.
03:26Okay.
03:26And, you know, what has happened now, I'll just take you back to New Delhi and what happened in February.
03:35You know, the European Union President, European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen went to New Delhi with 27 EU commissioners.
03:50This was the first time in the history of the European Union that the whole commission went to New Delhi to meet Prime Minister Modi.
03:57That was in February. And that was happening during the time when European Union and India saw what is happening in America, Trump's policy.
04:10It was slowly unfolding, slowly unfolding.
04:13I agree. I agree.
04:14Yeah, slowly unfolding. So, they thought that this is, we cannot live in limbo.
04:19So, European Union went to New Delhi. They decided that, look, we have to have a relationship which is completely par excellence.
04:30And this is the reason that, as you may have seen, that only on the 17th of February, European Union came out with a new strategy on India, which is completely unprecedented.
04:43It has never been any history of the European Union. No country has this type of relationship, which India has now with the European Union.
04:54You're an employee of Indian services?
05:01No, not at all.
05:03So, you are independent?
05:04Completely independent. I don't take even one euro from anyone.
05:08No donation also.
05:14No donation?
05:15No donation at all.
05:16So, who pays your salary?
05:20I'm a pensioner now.
05:22You see, what happened, what happened, Frank, that, you know, US-India relationship developed during the last 30 years.
05:33I agree. I agree. And Trump tariff, he's a total idiot and jerk.
05:38Yeah, absolutely.
05:39What happened that, you know, particularly during the President Obama, Obama's time.
05:44Right. I went with Obama to India.
05:47Oh, US. Okay.
05:48So, this relationship really blossomed that time.
05:51Both Indian and American leadership, they invested in future.
05:56Right.
05:56And they were so right. And now, the whole, everything has gone absolutely astray.
06:05Down the drain.
06:06It's very unfortunate. Very unfortunate.
06:08Right, very.
06:09Very unfortunate. But, you know, things can't work like that.
06:15You know, India has learned a lesson. And I think India has learned a lesson very hard.
06:21Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
06:24In one basket.
06:25India has learned a lesson. And, you know, another thing is that maybe America thinks that it can contain China without India.
06:39But I can tell you, China cannot be contained. China, it is a completely different ballgame now.
06:47China, you know, so long, for the last 25-30 years, India was used by America to contain China.
06:56And China's global ambitions were very much crippled by US-India relations.
07:03But that, for the last six months, that has gone completely astray.
07:08So, let me ask you this question. The recent adoption by the European Commission of a new EU-India strategy to boost defense and security ties in India comes in the backdrop of escalating tension with the US and tariffs and other issues.
07:22Is this, is it a late realization by the EU of the future role of India playing the role of balancing power in the rapidly shifting global geopolitics?
07:34You know, in fact, it is, you know, I will again go back about five years ago, when Trump, under the Trump's first presidency.
07:45When he was the first president.
07:46Yeah, Indo-Pacific policy was, you know, put into place.
07:53In the Indo-Pacific policy, it was Asia policy, then it came to Indo-Pacific policy.
07:58That was the time when Trump thought that, let us use India to contain China.
08:04That did not happen.
08:05Now, European Union is also in trouble because they want, European Union want to decouple its economy from China.
08:13It has been, and it is finding absolutely difficult because China's ideology and European Union's policy, principles and values, they don't match anywhere.
08:25Why is that?
08:27Why? Because it's completely because, because you don't know the how much, how much China has infiltrated into Europe's, you know, think tanks and everywhere.
08:37You know, the, the whole Europe is under Chinese spine.
08:41Whole Europe, all the institutions.
08:44Yes, absolutely.
08:46And this is not only in Europe, it is in America too.
08:49Well, in America is, yeah, you probably are right.
08:53It's America.
08:53So, so, so, so this is one of the reasons, Frank, that European Union found that India is the most ideal partner.
09:02And one of the reasons of the new strategy that, that, that you just mentioned, because the elements of the EU strategy on India provides the policy framework for EU's deeper and broader engagement with India over the coming years.
09:21In fact, this strategy is about unlocking the power and potentials of strategic partnership.
09:28This strategic partnership between European Union in India, it was signed in 2004 in Den Haag, the Netherlands.
09:38Now, since 2004, for the last 21 years now, you know, one may say that India and European Union have developed a strategic relationship, which is absolutely power access to everything.
09:52But in my view, it is still, you know, very strong arithmetic, but very, you know, but in low substance, I must say, because it has low substance.
10:06It has taken almost 17 years to negotiate a free trade agreement and that too is not complete.
10:12It takes a long time.
10:13Oh, it seems to be.
10:14You know, yeah, trade is a complex issue, true.
10:17But at the same time, you know, both have, but, but now it will be, it will be done.
10:22I can tell you that within three months, the both India and EU are going to sign the free trade agreement irrespective of what happens.
10:31Because.
10:32Irrespective, irrespective of what Trump's tariffs.
10:34Yes.
10:35Plays and quarter.
10:36Okay.
10:36Absolutely, absolutely.
10:38It will be done because the reason is that it is, it is not, it is a necessity for European Union to reach to India and it is India's necessity to, to come to European Union.
10:47That's, that makes sense.
10:49There seems to be clear disagreement with India and the purchase of Russian oil.
10:53Yeah.
10:53I want to talk to you about that.
10:54Yes, please.
10:55It has even led President Trump to impose tariffs on India, but the EU is also consumer of the refined Russian oil product.
11:03They purchase it from India because it is cheap.
11:05Yeah.
11:06Is there a kind of contradiction, their belief and practices, sir?
11:09Yes, absolutely.
11:11Absolutely.
11:11You see that, you know, the, why, why you're talking only about the European Union buying energy from Russia, which is America also, which buys a lot of, yeah.
11:22So, so, so it is completely contradictory.
11:25You know, India has been punished, you know, weeping boy.
11:28India has become like a weeping boy for America now because, because, because, you know, Trump doesn't have the capacity to, to discipline President Xi.
11:39So, so, so he thought that India is a, India's prime minister is a good friend.
11:46Let me try to handle him, but he has not been able to handle him properly.
11:50So, so the consequences, you will see what, what happens now.
11:54But yes, it is true.
11:56You know, India's energy needs is enormous.
12:00India wants to become five trillion economy in two years time.
12:06Do you think it will happen?
12:07Oh, it will happen.
12:08It will happen.
12:09Because, you know, I've been following Indian development for the last 35 years closely.
12:14I can say the type of nationalism that erupt, that has, that has developed in India, that will make India great.
12:22What happened after the second world war in, in, in Japan, the same thing is happening in India, same ideology, same thinking that let us make India great again.
12:33This is what happening in India now.
12:35So, you know, and, and, you know, that India has developed its own microchip, which is, which will be in the market, which is called Vikram.
12:44So India is doing its, you know, of its own.
12:46So, coming back to the Russian oil, of course, India is the largest, one of the largest, you know.
12:54Why, why, why did they purchase the Russian oil, but they can buy the, they can buy the oil from United States?
13:01But that will be very expensive.
13:04Yeah, that's also true.
13:05But do you know, that the one per barrel Russian oil goes to about $55, whereas if it goes to America, it will be $70 billion.
13:19Oh my goodness.
13:20Of course, of course.
13:21But, but you see the distance also between Russia and, and, and India.
13:26That makes sense.
13:27Geographically.
13:28And also, what happens that India does not boil by the oil.
13:32It boils and it refines in India, sells to European Union.
13:37European Union is the largest buyer, not only from Russia, but also from India.
13:42From India as well.
13:43From India as well.
13:44Because, because Europe also needs energy.
13:47And, you know, there are many countries in the European Union, like Hungary and Slovenia, who directly, yeah, who directly get energy supply from Russia.
13:59So there is a, there is, you know, in fact, Frank, there is a completely vertical split in the European Union about, about, about buying, you know, energy from Russia.
14:09So, let me, let me, let me get back to the question.
14:14Both the EU as well as the US also realize if they do not engage with India, other powers like China and Russia will fill that gap.
14:23How do you see this from your precious point of view?
14:27You know, I, I, you know, I think that, you know, Russia is a tested friend of India.
14:33It has stood with India all the time.
14:36It is, it has stood by India, with India and in India.
14:40In India means, you know, the Hindi, you see, this phrase has lived long for it in Russia and also in India.
14:51And it is, it is, you know, absurd to think that, that's, that another country will fill the gap.
14:58No, it is not going to be each country.
15:00What you say in Mafad, it goes in the interest of Mafad.
15:04Though, you know, economic interest makes every, all the changes and also the, it establishes the relationship between two countries and two nations or two people.
15:15So, this is exactly what's going to happen.
15:17But at the same time, India has diversified its energy needs from, from Russia.
15:23India, it is, it is buying from other countries, other countries and slowly and, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very hopeful that in, in, in coming, coming months, India will be, you know, buying energy from other countries.
15:39But at the same time, this Ukraine war, Frank, it has, it has completely devastated the economy of Europe.
15:47That's also true.
15:48That's a true.
15:48There is no, there is no appetite in Europe to fund this war anymore.
15:53Yeah.
15:53Or we, we try to fund it and we spend billions of dollars.
15:58It got nowhere.
15:59Yeah.
15:59Yeah.
16:00It, it has, it, you know, there is absolutely no, no, no appetite.
16:04But at the same time, I, I should not be taken wrong, but Russia also has to understand one thing, that it is started with a special military operation.
16:15And the special military operation doesn't go more than three days, three weeks or three months.
16:21It has gone three and a half months.
16:23And this has exposed Russia's military capacity, capability and arms.
16:29So, Russia doesn't have any capability and capacity.
16:32For the last three and a half years.
16:34Yeah, they do not.
16:36What do you think of Putin?
16:38Putin, he is a, he is a maverick.
16:42He's what?
16:44Maverick.
16:45Yeah, he's a maverick.
16:46Yeah.
16:47He's a maverick.
16:48But he knows, he knows the pulse of Europe.
16:51He knows the pulse of the people.
16:52But one thing I can tell you that if he becomes a friend, he remains a friend.
16:58Contrary to what happens, he remains a friend.
17:01See the frenzy between India and Russia.
17:04In spite of all the odds, still Russia is one of the most tested partner for India.
17:13Come what may.
17:14Even if, you know, during the last 30 years, even if America tried to take away India from Russia,
17:22India was very reluctant to do that.
17:24India thought, no.
17:25Russia is a tested friend and we will not be ditching Russia.
17:28And Russia will not be ditched.
17:31Russia will remain India's friend.
17:34And it was good also.
17:35Now we have seen what happened, you know, when Trump came to power.
17:39Now, think of a situation where Russia and India were not friends today.
17:46What would happen to Indian economy?
17:48Right.
17:49That's a true statement.
17:50That's a good point you made.
17:52Especially that Trump's tariff is not helping.
17:55Oh, Trump's tariff.
17:57You know, can you believe Trump has become the elephant in the room?
18:01Everywhere you go, you discuss any issue, even if you discuss whether Trump comes into the issue.
18:10Doesn't look beautiful, eh?
18:12Absolutely.
18:13He is the elephant in the room now.
18:15But, you know, the mindless, the way that he has completely changed the balance of trade all over the world,
18:25it is, you know, it has, you know, it's unpresidential.
18:32Let me tell you.
18:32Yeah, it is.
18:33It is.
18:33It is.
18:34I agree with you.
18:35You know, the great...
18:36You know, the great...
18:37In the EU-India partnership has been Europe's tendency to preach India on the matters such as human rights.
18:46And that's probably a true statement.
18:48Human rights is a violation.
18:50Whereas in practice, Brussels provide financial support to humanitarian, authoritarian regimes such as Africa, Middle East and Asia to safeguard its own interests.
19:01How do you look at this double standards, Sunil?
19:05Yeah, you know, the European Union, it is not only the human rights violation.
19:18I have been raising this issue with the European Union for the last several years.
19:22And I have tried to educate the European parliamentarians here that these human rights issues, you are not helping,
19:32but you are interfering into other countries' internal problem.
19:37Don't do that because this is going to hurt you.
19:40You know, there are many countries in Africa, many countries, all the dictators, many dictators in Africa.
19:46European Union has been doing business with them.
19:49You know the reason why they are doing, why European Union is doing?
19:53Because European Union is crippled by China's influence in Africa.
20:00You know that BRI, under the BRI, Belt and Road Initiative, China has almost gone to each, you know, all the countries of Africa by giving loans, soft loans, you know, making roads, infrastructure development.
20:19And European Union, you know, could have thought this much earlier.
20:25Yeah, they do have thought about it earlier.
20:28Much earlier, and now they are doing it, now it's irrespective of what type of, what type of government.
20:33But there are some human rights violations in India.
20:36There's no question about that.
20:38Yes.
20:39Do you agree with me?
20:41No, there are, you know, there are hardly any country where human rights violations doesn't take place.
20:46Yeah, yeah.
20:47Now, tell me one country where there is no human rights violations in the world.
20:51Tell me one country.
20:53America.
20:54Yeah.
20:57You see that, you know, each country has its own problem, internal problem.
21:02But don't play with the internal problem of the country because it doesn't.
21:05Yeah, that's a true statement.
21:06That is a true.
21:07Internal problem.
21:08So what do you think, are you optimistic about EU freight, EU-India free trade agreement having been negotiated for years being signed?
21:17I'm fully confident.
21:19I can tell you that within three months it is going to be signed.
21:23Although I'm, you know, it has taken almost 17 years to discuss this agreement.
21:29Out of the 23 chapters, they have already completed 16 chapters.
21:33Last meeting was held in New Delhi last month.
21:36Again, next month they are going to have the new, you know, meeting in Brussels.
21:41Commerce minister, Pius Goel, will be here for five days.
21:44They are going to decide, you know, many other issues because there is a pressure from EU leadership.
21:50And also there is a pressure from New Delhi that you must, you must complete the negotiation.
21:56And also the reason why European Union is keen to finalize the deal.
22:01And who is Pius Goel?
22:02Who is Pius Goel?
22:03He is the commerce minister?
22:05Yes, he is the commerce minister of India.
22:06That's what I thought.
22:07You know, one of the reasons why European Union is so keen to sign the agreement, because India, it took India and Britain to sign the free trade agreement.
22:20Negotiation took only three years, whereas with European Union, it has taken 17 years.
22:26Absolutely, because there is a structural problem in the European Union, because the agreement will have to go to 27 countries.
22:37Their parliament has to approve it.
22:39Then it comes to Brussels, then Brussels will improve it, you know, approve it.
22:44So ratification takes a lot of time.
22:45So India-Britain free trade agreement has become, in fact, a benchmark for European Union-India to conclude this.
22:55And they are going in the right direction.
22:58And I can tell you with a lot of, you know, confidence and knowledge that they are going to sign the agreement.
23:07How do you like to live in Belgium?
23:11How do you like it?
23:11Oh, you know, in fact, you know, I'm still an Indian passport holder.
23:18Oh, you are?
23:20Yes.
23:21I've been born in the United States, so I do not know much about India.
23:24Yeah, yeah.
23:25I'm still a passport holder, Indian passport holder.
23:27And I've been living here for the last 30 years, because I've lived in Geneva also.
23:33You live in Geneva as well?
23:34Yeah, because I have done my International Institute of Labor Studies from ILO, Geneva.
23:40Oh, my goodness.
23:41So from there I came to Brussels and, of course, I'm there.
23:44And, you know, why I left my job, I did not, I could have continued.
23:48Which job did you have in India?
23:50No, no, no.
23:51I was working in here in the ITUC.
23:53I left the job because that time, you know, in the U.S., you have a lot of lobby organizations
24:00which work for other countries.
24:03But in Brussels, India did not have any lobby organization.
24:07So I resigned from my job.
24:10I opened up this Europe-India Chamber of Commerce, and this organization has been pretty successful
24:19in doing lobbying work for Indian business interests.
24:23It is not only for India, I know.
24:25How many people do you have in the lobby?
24:26How many people do you have for lobbying?
24:28Oh, there are about four or five persons who are, about seven persons who do the work.
24:34But our lobbying work is completely different from other lobby organizations.
24:38Why is that?
24:41Why?
24:41Because we are a trade body.
24:43Oh, we are a trade?
24:44You are a trade body.
24:46Because we are a trade body.
24:47We are not a lobby organization.
24:49We are a trade body.
24:50What part of India are you from?
24:52From Bihar or Orisa?
24:54From Jamshedpur, Bihar.
24:56I know where Jamshedpur is.
24:57I've never been to India.
24:59I do not know much about India.
25:01Yeah, Jharkhand.
25:01Jharkhand, Jamshedpur.
25:03Yeah.
25:04Well, thank you very much, Mr. Prasad.
25:07And by the way, if I do come to Belgium, I will come to see you.
25:14Please, please, please do come.
25:15And let me also give you one piece of information that today, European Union and India, they are not only strategic partners.
25:29They are going to be more than strategic partners soon because there is one common factor which is called Trump.
25:38And that Trump common factor is forcing both European Union and India to come together and see what is happening.
25:50But India also must see beyond Trump now.
25:54That's true.
25:55That is a true statement.
25:56It is time for India to see beyond Trump.
25:58And Trump is not.
26:00But, Frank, I hope you don't take me wrong that we have to understand all countries.
26:07All countries have taken American market for granted.
26:13That was a true statement.
26:14And they should never take the market for granted.
26:17Granted.
26:18And this is what India also did.
26:19India also did, you know, market for granted, which is absolute wrong.
26:24You know, EU-India trade is about $125 billion.
26:30Did you know that Trump put an H-1B visa together?
26:34Yes, I know, I know.
26:35$100,000 per person.
26:38Per person.
26:39That's a lot of money.
26:40A lot of money.
26:41Do you know what will happen?
26:43Because many companies, they won't get people from India to work because that will be too expensive for them.
26:50That is a true statement.
26:52So they will open shops in India now.
26:56They should.
26:56And that's how we're going to get it done.
27:00And thank you very much, Sunil, for your wonderful, wonderful interview.
27:06And this is Frank Islam wishing you a great week.
27:08And thank you very much.
27:10zwischen of them for now.
27:26All right.
27:34Bye-bye.
27:35Bye-bye.
27:35Bye-bye.
27:35Bye-bye.
27:35Bye-bye.
27:36Bye-bye.
27:37Bye-bye.
27:38Bye-bye.
27:38Bye-bye.
27:39Bye-bye.
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