- 4 months ago
On Day 1 of India Today Conclave Mumbai 2025, Restaurateurs Yash Bhanage, Akhil Iyer, and Kavan Kuttappa discuss the burgeoning trend of small, niche restaurants in India.
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00:00Hello, everyone. Welcome.
00:05Okay, I am going to be talking about restaurants, small restaurants,
00:10and how do you manage to pack in those restaurants.
00:13Kawan, my first question is straight to you.
00:16Okay, so one of the things I noticed is that women on dating apps
00:23have been putting this as one of the things that they want in the potential partners.
00:28Can you get me a reservation at Nauru? How and when did that happen?
00:32I think it's been happening for a while now, over multiple platforms.
00:37I'm not on them because I'm married, but I've heard it happens.
00:42And so there's this girl who had put up a whole story about,
00:47hey, if you take me here and then there was an arrow and then you swipe,
00:52and then there was a restaurant which is the picture of the restaurant,
00:55and she said, if this happens, I will gladly go on a date with you.
00:59And we've got another request. And you're married?
01:01No, I'm already married. That's my opening line.
01:04So there's this other person who said,
01:08me having a successful marriage depends on this.
01:12So this is somebody who's already married, and he's under immense pressure
01:18to make a reservation at the restaurant happen. This is a…
01:23I cannot believe that a bowl of ramen can get someone married,
01:26but kudos to you for making that happen in the food space.
01:30Akhil, moving on to you, how do you feel about women in their Louis Vuittons,
01:34from top to bottom, dripping in Christian Dior, waiting in the hot bandra sun to get a plate of bene dosa?
01:43I feel very grateful. I feel grateful anybody comes to bene really,
01:49but more grateful that women, men, kids, everybody,
01:54and some of the descriptive personalities that you mentioned also come.
01:58It's very humbling. It's very, very humbling. We didn't expect anybody to come.
02:02It's like getting a bene dosa is like the iPhone experience.
02:05You have to wait in queue, and you have to prove that you deserve a dosa.
02:10Did you ever imagine that that is what bene was going to be before you opened it?
02:14Not at all. Not at all. Bene was started by my wife Shriya and me,
02:18and we literally didn't expect anything. So the fact that people came,
02:23or the fact that there was a queue, it shocks us even today.
02:28Why bene dosa? Why just that dish?
02:32True love. I love a good bene dosa. I missed it.
02:38I moved to Bombay twelve years back, to Mumbai twelve years back,
02:41and I just couldn't accept the dosa that was available here.
02:48Jeeni dosa and palak paneer dosa. I mean, you may like it, and that's good.
02:53You know there is a restaurant here on this table, who has many restaurants and he does a decent dosa.
02:59Not a dosa, but like could do a dosa. He can do anything.
03:02Yash, do you agree that Bombay doesn't have good dosa, and that's why he had to open a restaurant that does dosa?
03:10I think he said Bombay doesn't have a good bene dosa. Absolutely.
03:13Don't misquote him. We are at India today.
03:16Thank you, Yash. We decided beforehand…
03:18He is being very regional with dosa.
03:19Journalistic integrity is something we all need to stand for.
03:21He is being very regional with the dosa. Okay. So why don't you tell me then, Yash,
03:27from Dua Lipa to Dua's mummy and papa, which is Deepika and Ranveer, both of them have come to papa's.
03:37I know Dua Lipa was there with her boyfriend too, or so I saw on Manav Manglani's page.
03:42Can you describe papa's to me, but you cannot use the word that you often use, which is experimental, seasonal, and cuisine agnostic,
03:51which I personally feel that are the most abused and overused terms in the food world.
04:00So for me, I'll give you the simplest and I'll give you an explanation also.
04:06Papa's is a happy memory. If you remember the early 90s, I don't know if you were born, I was there.
04:16But going to India's first McDonald's, right, if you came from a middle income, any family, you stood in queue and your dad went and bought,
04:30and if he got you a happy meal, like in that moment, your family sitting there enjoying that meal,
04:37and then walking out with that toy in your hand was happiness.
04:42I feel the way for me, papa's is best described is not when someone walks out and tells you about how good the rabbit was,
04:52or how rarefied the freaking jinn was, was to say, I feel happy.
04:58And that's what, I don't remember a fine dining meal in India to just make you feel joyous and happy.
05:07And that's what papa's is.
05:09Yash, you know, you brought this up about McDonald's and we both know that papa's is one of the most expensive tasting menus in the country.
05:17It is not like McDonald's, it's not 250, 300 rupees, it is around 7000 rupees.
05:22Do you think the experience is justified for the price?
05:26Or do you think it's okay?
05:28I think it is justified.
05:29See, the thing is where, where, and I, I still order McDonald's at least twice a week.
05:35Um, it's not, we need to be very objective about this is for us, McDonald's is a cheap meal.
05:41But for someone in India, going to a McDonald's is still an aspirational meal.
05:47So there are different parts of it, right?
05:49Like it's, is papa's one of the most expensive meals in India?
05:54Yes, it is.
05:55But it is so much more value driven than anything you would get.
05:59So I always tell people that go to papa's when you want to celebrate a big moment in your life.
06:06Um, you've had a kid or you have an anniversary coming up.
06:09So I think it's definitely worth it.
06:11Like 7000 rupees is a ticket to Delhi on an Indigo flight.
06:16Okay. Um, Kavan, my next question is for you.
06:20Um, 25 dishes and approximately 10 ramen on your menu.
06:23Um, what made you feel like this is all I'm going to do?
06:26Take it or leave it?
06:28Um, when you talk about ramen, right?
06:31And if you've gone to Japan, if you've gone to a small shop,
06:33they usually have one item on the menu.
06:36So for a ramen restaurant to have 25 dishes is quite a lot already.
06:40I think it's already adapted to an India model
06:43where we used to use Shiv Sagar or Sagar style restaurants
06:47with about 200 dishes on the menu.
06:49So it's already adapted.
06:51Uh, there's something in it for everybody.
06:54Uh, yes, the previous menu when we started was slightly smaller,
06:57when it was more concise,
06:59but this is a little bit more diverse.
07:01There's, I think maybe,
07:04if I could, I would cut a few more dishes of the menu.
07:08Not add.
07:09Okay, don't do that.
07:10Maybe those girls on the dating app want to eat more than just those 10 dishes.
07:14Um, how do you feel?
07:15Especially when your peers are doing so many things,
07:17they're changing menus seasonally,
07:19they're doing such diverse things.
07:21How do you feel when somebody says you would be a one dish wonder?
07:24Um, I think it's great to be a one dish wonder also,
07:27because if you want something and you know that's the only place you can get that fix,
07:32you're going to go there no matter what.
07:34You're not going to hip-scop and jump to the next cool thing or the next new thing.
07:39Yeah.
07:40And you know, there's spaces in Bombay,
07:42uh, what I call like, uh, Bangalore also called a legacy model.
07:46There's some dosa places in Bangalore.
07:48If you want that style of dosa, you will go to that place.
07:54And that can happen with any cuisine and…
07:56Will you ever diversify and maybe do other things or this is what you are happy doing now?
08:01I'm happy doing this around but, um, I might diversify into another completely different thing altogether.
08:08Okay, talking about diversification, um, Yash, you have a bunch of restaurants, um,
08:14under your parent company, Hunger Inc., you have Bombay Canteen, you have Bombay Sweet Shop,
08:19um, you have O Pedro and everything is supremely diverse.
08:22What is it about Papas that is different?
08:24Because it is one of the most packed restaurants from amongst all of them.
08:29I feel it's important to also know that we took our time to start a fine dining place, right?
08:36And it's not really packed because it's only twelve seats.
08:39It's like one table at this ballroom, right?
08:42Um, I feel like it is…
08:45I don't like to share too much about it because I want people to come there and…
08:50We've all lost the element of surprise.
08:53You know, we…
08:54The challenge with…
08:55I'll say it openly is fine dining in India is with most restaurants we've seen before,
09:01is restaurants were designed only to be seen at, you know?
09:06That you as an entitled person wanted to be the first person there, take that photo, tell your friends and you're done.
09:13But as a fine dining restaurant where you, I feel, can differentiate yourself is the way you make people feel when they are there, right?
09:21Like…
09:22I know both of them have eaten at Papa's.
09:24Um…
09:25And…
09:26I just feel it's a great experience when you walk out of there and you don't…
09:29Yes, you spend a lot of money but you just feel…
09:31It's like after a great vacation you just feel refreshed.
09:34So, I feel it's…
09:35It's twelve seats.
09:36It's where Hussain gets to do what he wants and…
09:39At the end of the day people walk out supremely happy.
09:42Okay.
09:43Um…
09:44So, Akhil.
09:45Before you opened Bene, it's like Bandra had never eaten dosas.
09:49Okay.
09:50How did you get this Sado toast loving crowd to appreciate the nuance of a beautiful Bene?
09:57To be honest, I have no idea.
10:00Because I don't think they have stopped eating their Sado toast or drinking Machati.
10:07I think that's still very much happening.
10:09But I feel like now there is room for Bene dosa.
10:11Now there is room for dosa and I…
10:13It's amazing.
10:14I…
10:15That's why we chose Bandra.
10:16Because I feel like Bandra is one of those places where if you are doing something really specific
10:21and you are doing something very intentionally, they will give you a chance.
10:25Then it's up to you if, you know, you can show that you are doing a good job or…
10:30And that's why we started small.
10:32Entire reason we started small.
10:35So that we could focus on one thing, focus on that experience.
10:38And I think there is room for everybody.
10:42Kavan, why did you keep it so small?
10:44Was that very intentional?
10:46I was paying for it myself, so…
10:49I said, why invest in a 400 seater and be indebted for life when I can do 8 seats and fund it myself.
10:57And Japan, I know that you have travelled a lot of Japan while you were doing the menu…
11:02Also that, you know, ramen shops are usually between 4 to 10 seats.
11:06So I want to replicate exactly that and then ended up with 8 seats.
11:11Okay.
11:12Coming back to what I was saying about you travelling to Japan to learn how to make the right kind of ramen
11:18so you could give a great experience to Bangalore.
11:21Was there something that you learnt about the Japanese culture or specifically ramen making
11:26that you haven't changed even if you are serving it in Bangalore?
11:30Yes, I think all the… not to get too technical but all the core elements of ramen, the noodle, the soup, the broth, the seasoning,
11:41all those three things are all kept like you would have it in Japan.
11:46But there are a few things that come in that are also Indian like local ingredients that come into the ramen that make it its own.
11:52Okay.
11:53I want to come to you, Akhil.
11:58Did you expect this kind of virality with a brand and is creating a brand that is viral first more important than the food in today's scenario?
12:09Because I see a lot of smaller new brands doing that viral first approach where the food goes viral before people have even tasted it.
12:17Even if that happens, you may go there once but whether you come back or not is dependent on the food.
12:26Yeah.
12:27So, I think communicating with your audience is very important.
12:32Going viral is like winning the lottery, you know.
12:36There is a saying by this Tamil poet, he is translating a Tamil poem to English.
12:42He says, in his words, he says, what, what things at what, what time happen, oh, that, that thing at that, that time happen, eh, happen.
12:54So…
12:55And what exactly does that mean?
12:57It means that what… you can't predict it.
13:00You will try.
13:01Everybody is trying to go viral.
13:03But it doesn't happen for everyone.
13:05It's like sheer dumb luck.
13:07Everybody is trying to go viral.
13:09So, you are putting it on luck that Bene went viral.
13:12Hundred percent.
13:13Okay.
13:14Ninety-nine percent.
13:15Okay.
13:16It's luck.
13:17It's right place, right time, right product and luck.
13:20If, if I had to do it again, I have no idea it would happen or not.
13:24Right place, right time and right product is about ninety-nine percent.
13:27Okay.
13:28Yash, what do you have to say about that?
13:29I was going to say like, like when people say this, that the food went viral, it wasn't the food, it's the content that's going viral, right?
13:38And this whole thing about like single hit wonder, right?
13:43You went viral because of one Instagram meme, but that doesn't stop the work you've done behind the scenes of writing two books or being a great journalist.
13:52I think at the end of the day, like we go to Bene because it's a phenomenal dosa.
13:57And I think the idea that people don't get as younger founders is, yes, you want your content to go viral, but if the food does not taste great, they're not coming back.
14:09So, you know, as a brand, all your brands, Yash, specifically, all of them, there's a lot of thought that is put behind everything from packaging to labeling to the things that are written on the brand to the communication that goes out.
14:22So, the date it goes on and that, I can go on about that. To you, how does it feel when you see a brand that's just literally doing tiramisu coffee, get more hits than something that Hussain, Samir, you have taken months to put together?
14:42See, there's always a cynic in everyone. I have, like, always a sarcastic version of everything that's happening in real life happening in my mind as well.
14:54I acknowledge it, I feel it's great for people, but I'm also happy with the amount of money in my bank, so I'm like, my brands are doing good for me.
15:05Talking about money, when restauranteurs do, and this is my question for the three of y'all, when restauranteurs and chefs choose to do these super tiny, small, formatted restaurants, are they viable business-wise?
15:19Kawan, why don't you take that first?
15:22I think you can make it work. It also depends on how it's formatted. In my case, there's a person who walked in, he entered the restaurant, he's like, is this it? Because I think it, for him, in his head, it ended before it started, because the restaurant is so small.
15:41And then he said, hey, man, are you okay? I said, yeah, I'm fine. He's like, are you sure? Is this working? But then, yes, I said, it's working, we're doing okay. And it does do okay. I think it's more efficient than a larger restaurant, I'd like to say, because I think in a small sort of square footage that you're, we do five turns a day in a 20-seater.
16:08So, we do about a hundred people a day. So, it tends to work.
16:12Kawan, especially for you as a chef, while they are restauranteurs, and I want you to answer this question as well, for you, is it creatively satisfying when you're working with such small numbers that not so many people have eaten your food?
16:24Oh, it's great. You see new faces every day. So, it's fantastic from that perspective, you know. It's a small space, with smaller menus, it's easier to source something nicer.
16:37And you can only source a small bit of it, because you don't have to feed a lot of people. But I think it's great, yeah.
16:46What do you have to say about small restaurants and the business viability of those restaurants?
16:52For us, it was a very clear, conscious decision to start small. Again, because we are not from F&B backgrounds. We wanted to mitigate the risk. We're putting in all the money ourselves.
17:05So, we said, let's start small and try to focus on the food and try to focus on the experience and try to be as efficient as possible, which is what the Darshini model is.
17:15And that's why we have standing, no seating. I think, if you ask me, it's a very, very viable model, more from a risk perspective, because the amount of investment is lesser.
17:28So, if it does well, your, you know, turnaround is also very good. So, for me, if someone is a new restaurateur, I would recommend starting small.
17:37I would not say open a 400-seater restaurant or a 100-seater restaurant. I would say open small, perfect your product. If it does well, then go to a bigger space.
17:46So, Yash, you've done both big restaurants and now a tiny restaurant. Tell me if it's commercially viable. And as an entrepreneur, what is more satisfying?
17:56I think anything run the right way is commercially viable. It doesn't seem small or big. I'll give you an example.
18:05When we opened Bombay Canteen, we were in Lower Parel, but on the wrong side of Lower Parel.
18:10Everyone wanted us to be on Todi Mill's side, we weren't. But what that made us do was keep rent much lesser, like one-fourth of what people are paying on the other side.
18:21So, although Bombay Canteen now looks like a large restaurant, our team was 20 people when we started.
18:26Veronica's, on the other hand, is a 20-seater cafe, a small space. It is 300 people a day.
18:33So, I feel like, at the end of the day, what I love, what he was able to do with Bene, is the fact that what a cafe matras has done throughout, right?
18:44Like, did anyone go to Matunga 30 years ago and tell uncles there, oh, aap viral ho bai ho.
18:50They always had a queue. He's created the queues for the next generation, whose nostalgia now will be Bene Dosa, and not the Dosa in Matunga.
18:58And I think that's great. So, I think financially, as long as your product is good, people are coming in, no matter the size of the space, it will be profitable.
19:09In my mind, there's joy in both. I'll give you an idea. Like, we, on Ganpati, our brand Bombay Sweet Shop delivered 10,000 deliveries in one day in Bombay.
19:21And on the same night, papas served 12 people. So, I think we have both sides of the spectrum. One of them makes your hair go more white than normal, but we love it. That's the challenge of it.
19:34Well, Yash, you say you love it, but actually you're ranting quite a lot and creating so much brouhaha about people asking you for reservations.
19:42It's on your WhatsApp display picture is that I do not take reservation for papas, okay?
19:47Why open a restaurant if you didn't want to give people a seat or access?
19:52Have you been to papas?
19:54Yes, I have.
19:55So, clearly I'm not doing a good enough job of gatekeeping.
19:57I'm like one person. How many people here in the audience have been to papas?
20:03That's a lot.
20:04See? There you go.
20:05That's a lot.
20:06There you go.
20:08But my… the people who follow me on Instagram took that choice, right? To follow me.
20:15I don't want to be that… that founder who's just talking about life is so rosy, I'm sitting at the beach, look at my pina colada.
20:23I do rant. I rant because in this country service gets misconstrued to be servitude, right?
20:33Entitlement is what really pisses me off.
20:38And that's what I rant about is a reservation at a restaurant or a flight ticket or your Indigo flight getting delayed.
20:47We love to yell at the lowest common denominator is the one person in front of us.
20:52If you didn't get a papa's reservation, for me is like tomorrow if you plan to fly to New York a month later and you didn't get a ticket on the flight.
21:01Do you call Richard Branson and be like…
21:04No, right? Like you just wait for the next ticket to get free.
21:09So, why that sense of entitlement when it comes to restaurants? Why that?
21:12And that's what I rant about and if people don't like it, don't follow me.
21:17Do you feel that too, Kavan? Do you feel there's a lot of entitlement when it comes to asking for a seat at Nauru?
21:23It's tapered down over the years, but he still does 12 seats a night, so I don't know, it's going to probably take a decade before it tapers down.
21:33But, yes, there's a certain amount of entitlement that comes from many things.
21:40And restaurant reservations are like… you don't look at restaurant reservations, you think it's just a restaurant, it's just a seat, why don't you just throw me one?
21:51Kavan will just be like, talk to my assistant.
21:54Okay, talking about controversies, there is a lot of chatter about Bene gentrifying dosas.
22:00Why is… what do you have to say about that, Akhil?
22:04Gentrification of the Bene dosa by… by the whole bandarification of it.
22:10Dosa…
22:12Dosa is two thousand years old.
22:15I am not even a blip on the radar of dosa.
22:20But what I can say is, if you come to eat it, and you say it's gentrified, I don't care.
22:28As long as you are not… the day you put avocado on it, I will say it's gentrified, until then it's pure…
22:34See, for me, this is the dosa I ate growing up.
22:38Just because I am standing behind the counter and making it, doesn't gentrify it.
22:42You know, some Anna is not standing behind the counter with, you know, dungi or a beshti and making dosa.
22:49I am standing there with my baseball cap making a dosa.
22:52That doesn't gentrify it.
22:54The dosa is still what I ate growing up.
22:57It's a sixty-year-old recipe.
22:59And Deepika Padukone approves it, so who are we to question it?
23:03You can question. That's the beauty.
23:05Okay, before I let you all go, I have a quick session. Between the three restaurants, you have to kill, marry and hook up. Okay, so between Papa's, Naaru and Bene.
23:16Kill one, marry one, hook up with which one?
23:19Yes, you go first.
23:21Yeah, kill, marry and hook up. Which one will you kill, which one will you marry and which one will you hook up with?
23:26I'll be nice. I'll kill Papa's, I'll marry Bene because I think I can eat it every day and hook up with Mr. Naaru because difficult to get a hook up anyways.
23:39Akhil.
23:40Wow, yes. I would kill, no offense, I would kill Naaru, I would marry…
23:52He's offended.
23:54No, I mean I love Naaru and you know there's no lost here. There's a Bangalook. I think even he will marry Dosa, to be honest.
24:02I would kill Naaru, I would marry Bene and I would hook up with Papas.
24:07Yeah. And?
24:10Very similar to Akhil's, I think. I would kill Bene because I'm from Bangalore, I have very good access to Dosa, so killing that restaurant won't make too much of a difference in my life.
24:22I'm already married to Naaru and there's an endless hook up with Hussain all the time, so it's a very easy answer.
24:30Okay, thank you. On that note, it was lovely chatting with you. Thank you.
24:34Thank you. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you.
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