- 5 weeks ago
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The People vs Robodebt Season 1 Episode 1
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00:00The Government
00:24Come up with a new computer system
00:28There won't be a human in sight
00:35Robots were going to take over our jobs
00:40The power of a government
00:43To reach into someone's life
00:46And create trauma
00:48They were committing fraud against welfare recipients
00:51At an industrial level
00:53Why are they chasing me?
00:56When is it ever going to stop?
00:59When they're fighting against this big machine
01:03$11,303
01:05There's no way you owe this debt
01:08Nurses, teachers
01:11They were put in jail
01:13They lost their homes
01:14They lost their marriages
01:15Lost their lives
01:16Was I the one that pushed them over the edge?
01:19I didn't want to be Ciara's mum
01:21I just wanted to tend
01:23How could it go on so long?
01:26How could they not know?
01:28We all just said, yes Minister, we'll do that
01:30Yes Minister, we'll do that
01:31I wasn't going to give in
01:33I was not
01:35To take on the government is a really scary thing
01:38The courage of that needs to be celebrated
01:42It was David and Goliath
01:44I couldn't live with not speaking the truth
01:48When will there be justice?
01:50Here we go
02:12Wild
02:13Yeah
02:20Hey, morning
02:23Hi
02:24Just those thanks
02:25Thank you
02:27Cheers
02:28Thank you
02:32Thanks mate
02:33Cheers
02:34It's busy
02:35I'll take these, thank you
02:36Sure
02:37What have we got?
02:38Eucalyptus leaves
02:39Gum nuts
02:40Banksia
02:41And four red roses for perfume
02:43They're gorgeous, thank you
02:45Happy Mother's Day
02:46I mean, you're not my mum
02:48But you know what I mean
02:50I am a mum, so thank you
02:52It's alright
02:53See ya
02:54Bye
02:55Like bees to honey
02:57You're good
02:58Just doing my job mate
03:01Reece was very quirky
03:03He always liked to make people laugh
03:05Loved his art, loved his music
03:08One of Reece's first jobs
03:10Was the very upmarket
03:12Flora shop in Melbourne
03:14He loved being able to talk to the people that were coming in
03:17He just really enjoyed that job
03:20My name's Jennifer Miller and I'm Reece Corso's mother
03:25He was able to use his creativity quite a bit
03:31He liked it to be a little bit different
03:35He didn't just want to use flowers, he'd add weeds to it
03:39He did a really beautiful job
03:44We'd often talk to each other
03:51You know, relatively regular basis
03:54We always kept in touch
03:58He kept in touch
04:19His work was never constant
04:21The jobs that he did have were either casual and or seasonal
04:26So at times he would have to be on Newstart
04:40Hey!
04:41Hey!
04:42That was a long day, you poor thing
04:45How was work?
04:46Oh my god, that was insane
04:51Well, you've made lots of mums very happy
04:56Brit was his partner
04:58Gorgeous girl
05:00They loved each other
05:03They clicked well together
05:04What's this?
05:25I don't know, it's a letter from Centrelink
05:27They reckon I owe me over ten grand
05:30What?
05:33You don't, do you?
05:34No, I haven't been on the doll in years
05:36Maybe they just got your file mixed up with someone else's
05:41No way I can pay this
05:42No way I can pay this
05:59In 2016, I was just on maternity leave
06:03And I received a letter in the mail
06:06DMS Button, you need to confirm your employment income
06:16This may result in a debt that you need to repay
06:20Yours sincerely, compliance officer of Centrelink
06:24The letter was slightly odd
06:27Because I hadn't been receiving Centrelink for quite a while
06:30But I had just registered my daughter's birth
06:33And I thought maybe that was a process
06:35In order to get my maternity leave put through
06:38When I called Centrelink to confirm my employment
06:43The guy on the phone didn't give me any further information
06:45He just riddled off everything that was in the letter
06:48I said to him, I can't remember
06:51He said, well, this is the ATO data
06:53So, of course, I would agree with it
06:56Because why would the ATO have incorrect information?
07:01I trusted him
07:03I trusted Centrelink
07:09Four weeks later, I got another letter in the mail
07:12Saying that I owed about $11,100
07:16And I was shocked
07:22They gave me like a month to pay it in full
07:27I had never heard of anybody having this experience before
07:31When you are recently a mother
07:36So you're learning how to be a mum
07:38To a preemie baby that has developmental delays
07:41Navigating the maternal health visits
07:45The doctor's visits
07:47The mother's groups where you get to watch other women
07:49With their perfectly healthy babies that they're breastfeeding
07:51And you're sitting there going, she won't even take a bottle
07:53And then having that debt looming over you
07:59Knowing that you have to do something about it
08:02Quite imminently with no anchor
08:04Is terrifying
08:06It makes you feel like a failure
08:07So before I start, I'm still employed by Services Australia
08:30And I cannot say anything that's in breach of the Australian Public Service Code of Conduct
08:37When I first started back in 2000
08:44There were so many ways to help the community
08:49So it was a really nice feeling
08:51I wanted to feel value in what I was doing
08:55That it was important to be able to serve those people that were most at need
08:59People really didn't know where to go or what to do
09:03And you could completely change their day
09:07Their life
09:13It was around about 2015 that we first started hearing about the Robotet Pilot
09:19Compliance was going to be much more automated
09:23Robots were going to take over our jobs
09:29And we wouldn't need so many compliance officers
09:32We wouldn't need so many phone staff
09:34Everyone would just go on and raise their own debts
09:37Before Robodebt, compliance was about doing the work correctly
09:42Making sure that the debts were accurate
09:49We'd look at the customer's record firstly
09:53And then we would write to that employer
09:57Saying we would like all the pay slips or payroll reports
10:00So when I was ringing the customer
10:04There were often quite reasonable reasons
10:07As to why sometimes people weren't correctly declaring their income
10:19Once Robodebt started
10:21Centrelink were going to be sending out letters to everybody
10:24And people would have to prove that they didn't have a debt
10:30It doesn't think about anyone's individual circumstances
10:35It's automated, so it treats everyone exactly the same
10:39This felt like servicing of the customers was taken away
10:44This just doesn't feel right
10:47You were employed as a public servant to serve the public
10:52Your job was to do the best thing that you could by the public
11:03Rhys!
11:14Rhys!
11:20Rhys!
11:22Rhys!
11:23Rhys!
11:24Rhys!
11:25Rhys!
11:26Rhys!
11:27Rhys!
11:28Rhys!
11:29Rhys!
11:30Rhys!
11:31Rhys!
11:32Rhys!
11:33Rhys!
11:34Rhys!
11:35Rhys!
11:36Rhys!
11:37Rhys!
11:38Rhys!
11:39Rhys!
11:40Rhys!
11:41Rhys!
11:42Rhys!
11:43Rhys!
11:44Rhys!
11:45Rhys!
11:46Rhys!
11:47Rhys!
11:48Rhys!
11:49Rhys!
11:50Rhys!
11:51Rhys!
11:52who owns the debt to prove their innocence so i had to prove that i didn't have a debt when i
11:58didn't even know how they proved that i had a debt in the first place i was stressed all the time
12:06i was not sleeping i was not eating i'd never been a person that wanted to
12:14wrought the system or you know claim something that i wasn't entitled to
12:22ever since i was a little girl i always had this
12:25uncontrollable desire to help my community and just help people around me
12:30the reason i chose a career in nursing was because my mum is a palliative care and community nurse
12:39my sister is an icu nurse my aunties are all nurses so it's always been a very strong culture in my
12:45life the debt made me feel like i had let my community down that was probably the hardest
12:56part of the whole thing sorry that was probably the hardest part of the whole thing was feeling
13:03like i'd let everybody down
13:16before robo debt it would take months to get a file to a finalized debt
13:24there's a box which logs every time a public servant have tried to call the employer
13:30it was a deeply human driven process
13:37getting rid of the humans was the heart of robo debt
13:42they told the staff you don't investigate the file anymore
13:48the assumption was people will take the debt they won't query it
13:53our budget position looks a whole lot healthier
14:00we appreciate your patience and understanding
14:08your call is important to us and has been placed in a queue
14:13release you home
14:15kitchen
14:16we appreciate your patience and understanding
14:25we don't hold for over an hour centrelink
14:27an hour
14:28it happens every time i call them you can't talk to an actual human
14:33and they've got they've got this bloody awful music that plays over and over again i must have called
14:36them at least 10 times so you can't talk to someone you can't explain that it's just a mistake and then there's this deadline and
14:45please try again goodbye
14:50oh for sake i've been cut off what a total waste of my time
14:52reese had rung me really really distressed so i flew down there and we spoke about this this letter
15:06my reaction was just forget about this for the moment because this is
15:10bullshit there's no way that you owe this debt
15:19oh come here you i said okay well your mum will sort it out as mothers do
15:27what people have to keep in mind at that point no one had heard about robo debt
15:38we were all in the dark reese hadn't heard about it so we were flying blind
15:45115 oh finally
15:48um so there's been a mistake uh my son hasn't been receiving centrelink payments for over five years
16:03and um no word from you people and then these letters appear out of the blue he's you know submitted
16:12all his paperwork and his pay shifts didn't you yeah so the first letter said that he owed 10 283.81
16:22um and then he got um one that said he owed 17 000. are you disputing the amount owed
16:31i'm disputing that he owes anything
16:34all right mate just calm down what are you going to do about it i told you that you can't get out
16:41come on just get out of here come on
16:49jesus sorry about that um best thing for you to do is call the debt inquiry number
16:58i tried calling yeah and we're here now oh we don't deal with debt notices at this counter
17:07well i know you sent it
17:11call them they should be able to sort it out sorry i can't help he spent hours trying to call you
17:20people let's just call the number the system is useless thank you
17:28i'm colline taylor and i'm a retired compliance officer i was 32 years in the australian public
17:48service my last job was as the compliance officer in centrelink
17:52you find out the people's lives are just so complicated and just can't make assumptions about
18:01you know why someone's in a certain situation the idea of empathy is an essential requirement in my job
18:10my mother she was very socially minded it was just something that maybe came naturally i suppose when
18:18you're brought up that way
18:262015 i was in brisbane i was part of the compliance team that did data matching
18:34initially with robo debt there was a whole lot of debts that were going to go out that were fully
18:39automated so no human being had looked at these
18:42robo debt was raising a debt on the raw tax office data
18:50we knew that the raw data with the tax office was actually next to useless when it came to raising a
18:57debt you couldn't rely on it because the tax office isn't interested in whether you worked six
19:03weeks there three weeks there four weeks there all they're interested in is what was paid in the
19:08financial year these were manufactured debts they didn't exist because we knew a discrepancy does
19:16not mean a debt it was almost like the letters were designed so that people wouldn't reply trust us
19:24it's a debt please pay i thought someone's got to have some humanity and understanding
19:30so i sent an email my concerns are that this directive will result in an increase in admin
19:39error waivers and unnecessary appeals it goes against duty of care and as a compliance unit we
19:47should not be the ones stealing from our customers we are being asked to ignore evidence that no debt
19:54exists and to collude in raising a debt when none should exist big bold letters and underline you are
20:03asking us to commit a fraudulent act
20:18there does need to be a strong welfare cop on the beat and i'll certainly be looking to do that
20:22i think australians generally are quite happy to have a a system that helps people who are genuinely
20:27in need and deserve our support but what they won't cop just like they won't cop people coming
20:32on boats is they're not going to cop people who are going to rort that system scott marson becomes
20:37minister for social security just in the run-up to christmas 2014. what do i want to be about
20:46as minister is very clearly communicated to public servants fraud investigations and compliance
20:53interventions will increase by 900 000 over the next four years we're going after the cheats mr deputy
20:59speaker and we're going to stop those cheats and we're going to stop those rorters
21:05row that begins at what was a very ordinary corporate planning day in adelaide in the middle of 2014.
21:16at that planning day the department of human services managers
21:21are debating their plans for the year and the vibe that is in the air is very much around savings
21:30every year we look at the tax returns of everyday australians and out of this enormous pile
21:40we take 20 000 cases and we investigate those very closely and we generate debt
21:50why don't we take more from the pile they speculated what it would be like
21:57to process hundreds of thousands of cases a year and that was the very early beginnings of what became
22:06robo debt this system will pay for itself over time but what it'll also do is pay for itself by giving
22:13those who work in our system to crack down on welfare fraud and integrity issues the sort of tools they
22:19need to be an effective welfare cop on the beat in early 2016 scott marson is effectively promoted
22:27alan tudge is appointed minister for human services
22:31well g'day how's it going yeah it is pretty exciting for me i mean if i got sworn in today as the new
22:36human services minister he must roll out the computer system that was promised the previous year
22:43and time is tight and the pressure is on in august in 2016 i took a role with the minister for human
22:59services alan tudge he was well known to be seeking to get into cabinet he had always been quite ambitious
23:10and creating media stories and i walked straight into a really really busy portfolio in human services
23:16he was absolutely a mediatard i mean he really enjoyed the media as you might know i'm racing home
23:21now because my wife's going to be giving birth tomorrow morning so um it's a busy time in the touch
23:27household but it is exciting i was trying to balance having two children and a husband and a family life
23:33dog blushing le dr masculine that's stupid i'll take it up with the french
23:46hang on
23:47the test is tomorrow yeah just give me a second there was a lot of personal challenges at that
24:00time as well as professional challenges i can be here next week for the parent-teacher interviews
24:05while you're in sydney great can you just hang on i need to hear this then i'm away for the next two
24:12weeks i thought it was only one well it was it got changed you could just ignore it no i can't
24:23alan is betting his whole career on this thing there's just some people who aren't stepping up
24:27to the mark and he wants a bit more teeth if you like to encourage those young people i might need
24:34to travel in those two weeks honey i've already changed things once i could stay with rosie no you can't
24:42be honest one of the reasons why i was interested in working for him because it was an opportunity
24:48to actually be more proactive as a media advisor and a good way to do that is to be seen to be
24:53having wins in the media for the government now whenever they try to throw you just keep coming
24:58back to the central argument efficiency efficiency efficiency and make sure you mention welfare cheats
25:04public hates welfare cheats the current affair interview was very much focused on
25:10sending a clear warning message out to people that the coalition is cracking down on welfare cheats
25:16good we will find you we will track you down and you will have to repay those debts and you may end
25:23up in prison our thinking on it was that we wanted the australian people to support our welfare safety
25:30net and and that they would do so if they felt that the system had integrity especially as a coalition
25:35government we want to make sure that the scheme is running properly and that we are recovering
25:39debts that we weren't just kind of letting them go
25:50prior to the robo debt scheme we had a lot of different programs that were all about getting
25:58it right doing the work correctly and making sure that the debts were accurate
26:07right down to the last cent and then after robo debt took off that was raising debts
26:18that we knew were incorrect
26:22in the initial meeting there was so much tall you can't raise a debt if you know it's inaccurate
26:28in the exact two o'clock I can remember walking out of that meeting and ringing my union person straight
26:34away going you just won't like this is just crazy you know this isn't going to really work
26:44each one of us were taken by our team leader into a one-to-one meeting
26:49she made it very clear that there was a direction that was being handed down from higher management
27:01and she said basically you've got three choices to do the job transfer or quit
27:12and I was pretty upset about it but I was going through a family breakdown whilst I was raising
27:21three children I didn't have the option or the opportunity to say well I'm going to quit
27:26because I needed the security I needed to be close to home because my children were still
27:32in primary school so I stayed and I did the job
27:35one day I was just at home and received a center link letter in the mailbox you owe us money I
27:50couldn't fathom it really surprised that I had a debt and a bit alarmed worst most absolutely
27:57soul-crushing we used to get
27:58September 2016 we were seconded to go and check that the fully automated debts were actually
28:20calculating it correctly and they wanted a group of experienced debt calculators and we were to do a
28:27manual calculation to see what we arrived at and compare that with what the system arrived at
28:33fully automated and what was obvious straightaway was this was being duplicated the first three we
28:42looked at duplication both Woolworths and big W one was the trading name and one was the group entity
28:49name one was there was an apostrophe missing and a PTY LTD a human being looking at it quite clearly it's
28:57the same employer so we worked out what the debt would be if we didn't double up the same employer
29:03you know and the difference was probably about two and a half thousand and so we went to the
29:10supervisor and said well these debts are wrong you know and I'll never forget the supervisor there and
29:16I'll never forgive her for this she said well if you don't like it you can leave it seemed to be
29:21you're either for us or against us and if you're against us well watch out you know
29:27so I went back upstairs then I said you cannot do this to people and I said people will commit suicide
29:40the other team leader she said to me you're right Colin but it's just gone too far it was this steamroller
29:53that was full steam ahead and who's gonna stop it now we were the Department of Human Services where
30:03was the humanity on the 5th of September Ciara had really bad asthma and she'd developed a chest
30:20infection on top of it so I had to take her to the doctors we finished our appointment and I went to go
30:30pay and my card decline and I was I was in shock I couldn't even tell you how many times I apologized
30:43to the receptionist at the doctors clinic and opened up my banking app and I saw that my account was
30:50overdrawn by eleven and a half thousand dollars so I got in the car and I called
31:00the debt collection agency he started his phone calls so cold with me he basically treated me
31:06like I was a pariah he said well you've got a debt and now you've paid it and we were going over the
31:14bridge on the freeway and I said to him why don't I just drive off the road I can't afford my rent I
31:22couldn't afford my bills I'm a terrible mom I'm a terrible partner because I can't contribute to
31:29anything I'm a terrible community member because I'm leeching off the system I felt hopeless and helpless
31:37and stupid he said we don't want you to do anything silly you know don't worry it's clearly a mistake we'll
31:45put the money back in your account tomorrow but the damage had been done because they were able to
31:52withdraw half a year's worth of wages from my account in an instant and I had no say in it that day I
32:01I didn't want to be alive I didn't want to be Sierra's mom I just just wanted to tend
32:31riss did suffer anxiety he would have panic attacks I obviously was extremely concerned about his welfare
32:43you ever heard of dun and bradstreet is that a band
33:02they're the ones that are hassling me about the money
33:07what are you talking about
33:12they're debt collectors
33:26they're trying to garnish my wages they're going to take my car not that it's worth anything
33:38they're going to take my bike too and then i can't even get to work to make the money
33:43to pay them off
33:44they can't write this sort of thing to people
33:47they're texting me too
33:52is this so not okay
34:08i don't know what's going to happen if i can't pay them
34:11maybe they'll send me to prison
34:18i hate these people
34:21good afternoon services australia ravi speaking
34:42g'day i'm on a disability support pension i was given two robo debts one was $5352 the other
34:54one was $6,011 so two totaling about $11,000 i'm on the poverty line i don't know whether
35:01i can afford anything more than $10 the fortnight
35:10we weren't really trained to deal with the level of trauma that the customers were coming through with
35:17either they were very distraught very upset very emotional and then the next call that you take
35:25Within that 30 seconds later, someone's swearing at you,
35:30telling you that they're going to find where you live
35:33and threaten yourself and your family.
35:36It was really hard.
35:39When you've got someone that confess that they're feeling suicidal
35:44or have talked about self-harm, it was quite stressful.
35:49And I knew that the debts for the majority were incorrect.
35:53And I'm like, how would I feel if that was me?
35:57I'd feel terrible.
35:58And that really played on me mentally.
36:04I started going to the pub and my lunch breaks.
36:07It would make the afternoon calls a little less traumatic.
36:14I started drinking in my lunch breaks, buying a bottle and taking it home.
36:19In the end, I end up with an alcohol addiction.
36:23That I'm still babbling with today.
36:27My children watched me just become less available.
36:32Depressed that I couldn't change it.
36:35Guilty and shame that there wasn't anything that could really be done
36:41to make people understand that it needed to stop.
36:53Thousands of welfare recipients have been overpaid
36:56to the tune of more than $700 million.
36:59But the government says it must be repaid.
37:02While most people do the right thing,
37:04the unfortunate reality is that some people deliberately defraud the system.
37:08In one case that you start recipient...
37:11Thrive's in a limelight.
37:12That's because you've briefed him properly.
37:15I'm doing my job.
37:17The view was that, hey, there's millions of dollars in human services
37:23that is just going to people who aren't entitled to it.
37:26At the end of the day, if somebody does owe money to the government,
37:29they have to pay it back.
37:30They have to pay it back.
37:32One in every $3 that the federal budget is spent on welfare.
37:36And by 2020, the system's forecast to...
37:39Not well briefed, apparently.
37:41Seriously.
37:42Fair to the welfare recipient.
37:44We want to be reasonable.
37:45All the things I should have mentioned.
37:46We also have to be fair to the taxpayer.
37:48And while the government's investigating...
37:50As a media adviser, your phone doesn't stop.
37:52It can be made worse if you're working for a minister like I was,
37:56who is constantly looking for those opportunities in the media
38:02and constantly following and reading the media and following Twitter.
38:05Because then as soon as something's breaking,
38:07he was calling me straight away and going,
38:09Hey, have you seen this?
38:10Hey, have you got a response to that?
38:12Hey, can you get me on that opportunity in that TV program?
38:1680% of people's welfare payments are now placed onto an account
38:20which is only accessible via that card.
38:23I can remember one instance when I was at home
38:26and I went into the bathroom.
38:31My phone just rung and rung.
38:39It was the minister saying,
38:41Well, where were you? Why weren't you picking up your phone?
38:44And I said, Look, I was actually going to the toilet.
38:48And he was like, No, I need you to take the phone in the bathroom with you.
38:50I got to the point where I'd just take the phone with me everywhere.
39:04I remember seeing a press release from Alan Tudge's office
39:08that was going to start debt recovery processes at a rate of 20,000 per week,
39:13when previously had been running at about 20,000 per year.
39:19I thought, How on earth are they going to achieve this?
39:23And I just, it just didn't match with the reality of what I knew
39:27and understood about the way that welfare recipients were claiming money
39:31and the kind of, you know, the kind of numbers that were involved in,
39:34in deliberately taking money from the system
39:36or trying to rort the system.
39:38It just needed to be covered.
39:46As a journalist, I had the power to have a really significant impact.
39:50Giving a voice to voiceless people and disempowered people
39:53and seeking to understand what's happening to them
39:56and how they're being impacted by policy and government decisions
40:00is a really critical part of journalism.
40:02I think I got to kind of reconnect with that purpose.
40:06The first story that we published is the first story in the media about robo-debt.
40:25And what happens from there is we get a trickle of welfare recipients
40:30getting in touch with us, and that soon becomes a flood.
40:34We're absolutely inundated with people coming forward.
40:47How am I going to pay this if I have to pay it?
40:49Where am I going to find this money?
40:51It didn't make sense to me that I could get a $14,000 to $16,000 bill.
40:55I spend a lot of time on the phone with SenseLink
40:58trying to figure out how they figured it out.
41:00You're ashamed. I hid it. I didn't tell anybody.
41:03It makes you start questioning everything
41:05because you think you're always in the wrong.
41:08It caused me to sort of like have a bit of a breakdown in a way.
41:12I end up walking out of my house.
41:13When you're experiencing such a tremendous debt,
41:19you can't help but reflect on yourself and your actions
41:22and go, where did I go wrong? What did I do?
41:24How did I get myself into this?
41:26I feel so lucky that I have a support network around me
41:30and get support and emotional support from my husband.
41:33But I always think, what about those people that can't,
41:37that has social anxiety or has phone anxiety
41:39and can't pick up the phone and call the debt collectors?
41:42Do they just let them take the money out of their account
41:43and go, oh, well, I guess I'll sleep on the street?
41:46You know, what about the person
41:47that's escaping a domestic violence situation?
41:50What about the person that's living with a disability
41:52who can't access a phone
41:54or can't access Centrelink independently?
41:57And what about a student who's new to the world,
42:01and, you know, a naive teenager
42:02that thinks it'll all blow over?
42:04Did anyone at all consider them
42:07in their architecture of this program?
42:12This is the system working as it was intended.
42:16We are doing this in an organised, fair and procedural way.
42:21All through this period,
42:23the government is basically rubbishing our reporting,
42:26saying it's wrong,
42:27they don't understand what they're reporting,
42:29they don't understand how the system works,
42:31we haven't changed anything,
42:33we've always raised debts in this manner.
42:37To me, that was kind of like a red rag to a bull,
42:39like, because I could see exactly how it had changed.
42:42I knew that things were different.
42:48In those first few weeks,
42:50there's us reporting it,
42:52some stories in the ABC,
42:53Crikey,
42:55and a couple of other smaller outlets.
42:57But there is this section of the media
43:03that completely ignores it,
43:05and that is mainly the News Corp tabloids
43:08and the broadsheet, The Australian.
43:11It's not unexpected that that would happen,
43:13but it was frustrating, in a sense,
43:16because the truth was right there in front of everyone,
43:18in front of every reporter in the country.
43:24It was definitely my job
43:27to try and minimise the amount of negative stories
43:31that were appearing in the media.
43:33Alan, good morning.
43:47Does it still qualify as morning?
43:52Yeah, I'm aware there's been some pushback,
43:54but it's only from a couple of left-wing turners.
43:56That was all he talked about to me,
43:59was, you know, there's another story today,
44:01why haven't you spoken to that journalist?
44:04Have you got our side of the story in there?
44:07You know, I worked really hard
44:08to make sure that at least
44:10if there was going to be a negative story,
44:11that it was least balanced.
44:13We can certainly feed a couple of stories
44:15to the tabloids.
44:19We're the good guys.
44:22Oh, I've been pursuing the use-saper.
44:25Social media uses, yeah.
44:28Yeah.
44:29Okay.
44:31Yeah, I can be in the office in 15 minutes.
44:40Minister, thanks for joining us on HACC.
44:42Pleasure.
44:43On a scale of 1 to 10,
44:44how flawed is your new system?
44:47I don't think it's flawed at all.
44:49What we're trying to do
44:50is just to ensure that
44:51people get the right payment
44:53that they're entitled to,
44:55no more and no less.
44:57We sort of saw an opportunity
44:58where we've got a bunch of
45:00kind of intellectual left-wingers
45:02who are really outraged
45:03about this program,
45:04but we're able to sell a different story
45:07to the mainstream media
45:09about we were recovering debts
45:12because we were trying to protect
45:14the integrity of the welfare system.
45:16Our information that came back to us
45:19was that the system was working
45:20as it should have been.
45:22We're hearing stories from young people
45:24who are now being chased by debt collectors.
45:26How early do you call
45:28the debt collectors in?
45:30So the debt collectors come in
45:31as a last resort.
45:33When a person with a debt
45:34is no longer receiving
45:36a Centrelink payment,
45:37where we've been unable
45:39to contact the person
45:40and they've failed to make
45:42or maintain a recovery at range.
45:44By the stage in December,
46:05Rhys felt like he was being victimised.
46:07He felt like,
46:08am I a criminal here?
46:10Or he would have been like a deer
46:11in a set of headlights
46:13and not knowing where to go.
46:17And that's what happened.
46:21We couldn't make head nootale
46:23of where this was coming from.
46:25That was the start of everything.
46:37Warm start to summer today.
46:39However, temperatures in our west
46:40will be getting close to 40 tomorrow.
46:42Merry Christmas!
46:44There'll be plenty more beach weather
46:46to come as we approach Christmas.
46:48It was a day to start
46:49and finish your Christmas shopping.
46:52Today was it.
46:54Trees, tinsel and tans.
46:56At this particular point,
46:57just before Christmas,
46:58we're talking about people
46:59who in many cases
47:01are disadvantaged or vulnerable.
47:04Maybe five to six grand
47:05doesn't sound like a lot of money,
47:06but actually for many people,
47:09that's kind of the difference
47:10between having money
47:11in your bank account or not
47:12or being able to buy presents
47:15for your kids at Christmas
47:16or being able to buy uniforms
47:19for next year
47:20or in some cases,
47:22being able to pay rent,
47:23put food on the table.
47:24So it was devastating.
47:26It was devastating to people.
47:27Over the Christmas period,
47:41Rhys didn't say a great deal to me
47:43about the harassment
47:44that he was receiving.
47:46It was actually Brett
47:47that advised me
47:50that, you know,
47:50he was getting harassed.
47:52He was just threatened
48:10with losing absolutely everything.
48:16He felt like he just had
48:17a burden on his shoulders
48:18continuously
48:19and that he just wasn't
48:20going to get anywhere
48:21and he didn't know
48:23which way to turn.
48:31Canberra being the bubble it is,
48:33the culture around
48:34welfare recipients
48:35was probably one of a lack of,
48:39a lack of empathy.
48:40We just didn't have any
48:45insights into what it felt like
48:47to be receiving
48:48a government benefit.
48:55I first started to hear
48:57or feel
48:58that something wasn't going right
48:59when we had phone calls
49:02from people with debts
49:03coming into the minister's office.
49:05But I also ran into
49:07a younger woman
49:09in the ladies' bathrooms.
49:14I need your help.
49:18I got this debt notice
49:20from way back
49:21when I was a student.
49:22It doesn't make sense.
49:23I've checked.
49:24Okay.
49:25I've got all my payslips
49:26from my casual jobs at uni,
49:27every one of them.
49:29There shouldn't be any debt,
49:31but they're saying
49:32I owe thousands.
49:34I mean, I always told them
49:35what money I'd earn.
49:35I provided payslips.
49:36I did all the things
49:37you're supposed to do.
49:39Well, someone like you
49:40shouldn't have one of those debts.
49:42You're not exactly
49:42rotting the system, right?
49:44Yeah.
49:46I can't tell my family
49:48or anyone.
49:51This is so...
49:53it's embarrassing.
49:56Could have been a mistake.
49:58Has to have been.
50:01I'll look into it.
50:02Could you?
50:04Yeah.
50:05That'd be amazing.
50:06Definitely that conversation
50:16with that young woman
50:17in the bathroom
50:17was the first time
50:19that I had serious doubts.
50:21Because this is a person
50:22who is extremely well-educated.
50:25She had kept all of her payslips
50:27and all of her documentation.
50:29Because she had all of those records,
50:30it was sorted out really quickly.
50:32And she didn't have a debt.
50:35I was worried because I was like,
50:37well, she has all of that information
50:40and that's lucky.
50:41But what about the people who don't?
50:43And when I started to try and look into it even further,
50:50I was told very firmly that we're looking after this.
50:55This is the policy side of it.
50:58You're the media advisor.
50:59You just stick to what you're hearing
51:01from the media team in the department.
51:03I couldn't see how that was right.
51:10There was something about it
51:11that was just,
51:12that felt wrong.
51:13It felt strange
51:29when the first time
51:30somebody said you're a whistleblower
51:31or something.
51:31What do you mean?
51:32You feel that
51:33you have to put yourself at risk
51:35so that the truth comes out.
51:38Empathy,
51:39I just didn't have any left.
51:41You just do what your minister wants you to do.
51:43They did not acknowledge
51:45that people were vulnerable.
51:46They did not acknowledge
51:48that people were suffering.
51:50I was not going to pay them anything
51:53and I was not going to let them
51:56push me into killing myself.
52:13If you or someone you know
52:35require immediate assistance or support,
52:38contact Lifeline
52:39on 13 11 14
52:41or visit lifeline.org.au
52:43or Suicide Callback Service
52:45on 1300 659 467
52:48or visit suicidecallbackservice.org.au
52:52or Beyond Blue
52:53on 1300 22 46 36
52:56or visit beyondblue.org.au
52:59or talk to your local GP
53:01or health professional.
53:02Also via email
53:03help or service
53:04on vulnerable
53:15or visitercl.org.au
53:17And it's also
53:17who issam
53:18andags
53:18onشر labor
53:19phone
53:20online
53:20or
53:21online
53:22online
53:22online
53:22or
53:23on
53:23änner
53:25online
53:25or
53:25passing
53:26on
53:26hou
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52:34
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