- 2 days ago
A political war has erupted over Congress MP Rahul Gandhi's call to Gen Z of India to play a decisive role in safeguarding the Constitution and prevent alleged "vote theft".
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00:00I want to come to you Rajat first. Rajat, do you believe that Rahul Gandhi, when he asks Gen Z to
00:05come out and defend the constitution, save democracy, is it a recipe for anarchy or as
00:11the BJP alleges, or is he doing what any political leader wants, trying to galvanize the young
00:17to take a stand on certain contentious issues?
00:22Well, Rajdeep, good evening to you and to the fellow panelists. See, if you look at those
00:28words in the tweet, you cannot necessarily draw a conclusion that they have any kind
00:33of a malified intention per se, but it has a subtext to it. We've all seen what has happened
00:40in Bangladesh, in Nepal, also to some extent in Pakistan. You know, reaching out and calling
00:46to Gen Z has some implied political signaling, a dog whistling as well, trying to draw in
00:53lessons from the neighboring countries and try and, you know, use the same recipe of some
00:57kind of anarchy here. Now, will he succeed or not succeed? Time will tell. So far, he
01:03has raised questions around constitution repeatedly over the last decade or so, and most of them
01:08haven't worked. On the farm issues, yes, it did work where the government had to withdraw
01:14schemes. Even without going into the merit of it, the government just felt the pressure.
01:20Now, what Rahul Gandhi aims to do, he needs to galvanize his base. He has been losing elections
01:27on a spree and there has to be a reasonable sort of, you know, explanation as to why is
01:32my leader losing elections after elections. And he needs to have a potent answer before
01:36the karekartas. What, how else will he go out and face them and energize them? So I think
01:40he is trying to use this as a core issue around which he brings in some kind of a fighting
01:46spirit into his, into his base so that they can fight out on the streets and ensure that,
01:51you know, they are fighting with some hope that yes, that I put pressure on the EC. So you would
01:56not be taken for a ride and you can go out and continue to fight elections. I think that is where
02:01the larger message is. Otherwise, you see, you know, Rahul Gandhi has been picking issues around
02:06elections, but like flavors of ice cream keep changing. The issues keep changing and we don't
02:12see issues being taken to a logical conclusion. You know, when Pawan Khela is party's main spokesperson
02:16himself has two epic cards, then very little is left in terms of imagination as to, you know,
02:23where is there a genuine mistake and where are the mistakes which are generally true for the entire
02:27process in the election commission across party lines, across phases of our democracy.
02:31My main point here is, had Rahul Gandhi credibly, you know, without, you know, reasonable doubts,
02:38he would have established something even in one mohalla, one village, where he could patently
02:43come out and claim that yes, rigging has happened. And this is the modus operandi. I believe a lot
02:48of people, not just Gen Z, a lot of people would be hitting the ground. But in my understanding,
02:53there has been no clear single case, which he has presented before the voters, before the public,
03:00where he could have justified. You look at the Karnataka case as well. What does the MP say,
03:05the Congress MLA say? He clearly says that we were vigilant and we stopped that. That is the job.
03:10This is what Tej Pratap is also saying. If you believe that the votes are getting deleted,
03:14be vigilant, go out and hit the streets and ensure every voter is getting is getting accounted for
03:21before the voter list is finalized. And any responsible leader should focus on that effort.
03:25But I believe Rahul Gandhi here is focusing on the optics part of it to galvanize his base.
03:29to excite them, to give them a sense of fighting spirit. Is he being reckless by making allegations
03:45without 100% proof as Rajat Sethi seems to want? Is he spreading anarchy and disaffection among Gen Z?
03:54Or is he simply doing what any opposition leader would do, trying to expose the government where
03:59he believes they should be exposed?
04:02Good evening to you, Razdeep, and to both Sandeep and Rajat. The truth is this,
04:09that Rahul Gandhi's performance in both the press conferences where he's challenged the election
04:15commission directly, is unprecedented in India's political history that I am aware of. When using
04:22official data, he's put compelling evidence out in the public domain. He's actually spoken on behalf
04:30of every citizen in this country, even if it's a BGP supporter. I believe tomorrow, if the Congress
04:36were to be in power, would the BGP supporters like you to abuse that power by misusing institutions like
04:42the way the BGP is doing today. So the truth is that his political brand, Rajdeep, and I know he has
04:48had many critics, but they need to eat some humble pie now. He's a transformed politician or a leader
04:55after the Bharu Jhoda Yatra. A lot of people today see him as a custodian or a sentinel of India's
05:02democracy, flailing and failing at its seams and at its core. And if you look at the whole issue,
05:09it's not just about the press conferences where he's challenged the election commission, which by the
05:14way, hasn't responded to them. The fact is that if you look at his vote, the whole Adhikar Yatra in
05:20Bihar on the SIR issue. Who are these lots of people? Sanjay Jha, who are the lots of people who are
05:27responding to Rahul Gandhi? The fact is, he's lost, like it or not, more than 80-85 percent of the elections
05:33he's contested. Ultimately, validation comes from voters. Are the voters backing Rahul Gandhi? Rahul Gandhi
05:40makes allegations. The opposition says, or the BJP in this instance says, shoot and scoot. You throw some dirt
05:47and hope that it will stick. It's done out of hope rather than conviction. Well, I think that can actually
05:53apply to the BJP, right? This desperate attempt to try and target Rahul Gandhi at every stage, when the truth is that
06:00the reason why they're worried is that Rahul Gandhi's whole SIR exercise, the battle that they have done
06:06on motorcycles in Bihar, has crossed Bihar. I'm from Bihar, I can tell you that while it's going to be a
06:12key electoral issue there for sure, this is an issue that is being discussed all over the country. It's
06:17caught the public imagination. People are concerned, Rajdeep, about democracy. This is no longer a
06:23conversation for you and me, English-speaking people doing in Mumbai and Delhi in our drawing
06:28rooms. People across the board are worried about where India is headed and where are their rights
06:34to vote. So here is the crux, I believe, that Rahul Gandhi today in the eyes of the BJP is representing
06:41the 99 percent of Indians while Mr. Modi is being seen increasingly as a man who represents one percent
06:47of India. And the truth behind that is the reason why the BJP is panicked. Now, can you imagine a
06:53country which is so young, right? If you look at the Gen Z definition, I'm sure Rajat knows that,
06:58are those who are born after 1996, I think up to 2009-10. That's a young population, mostly jobless,
07:05by the way. And Rahul Gandhi is asking them to protect India's democracy and constitution,
07:11and the BJP is getting paranoid about it to call him as a dangerous, anarchic threat. I mean,
07:17it tells you how this party has essentially lost its entire constitutional health. It's really in a
07:25panic mode. I mean, it's just bizarre that a young leader asking the young of this country who are the
07:32future to be participating. What is the BJP? That's an authoritarian culture of the BJP.
07:37Okay, let me bring in Professor Sandeep Shastri. Sandeep Shastri, there's the truth lie
07:46in between somewhere between how Rajat Sethi sees it and Sanjay Jha sees it. Because do you really
07:52believe that this vote-chori allegations will lead people to take to the streets? The farm laws
07:58led people to take to the street because the farmers felt their rights were being affected.
08:02Here, the youth isn't really concerned about vote-chori, is it? Do you believe it is?
08:07Is there any evidence, statistical, anecdotal, otherwise done by pollsters that suggest
08:13that on vote-chori, people are ready to hit the streets on allegations of vote-chori?
08:21Good evening, Rajdeep and my fellow panelists. I heard with great interest what Rajat Ji and Sanjay Ji said.
08:30Point number one, upholding of democracy or attack on democracy, both these perspectives I think are
08:41selective explanations of reality. I would neither call it an attack on democracy nor would I call it
08:49a upholding a upholding of democracy. It is a debate which should happen in a democracy which unfortunately has
08:59become a war of words and not become a meaningful debate. Point number two, when a leader appeals to
09:09a segment of society and people talk about what is happening across the region in India, I would still
09:18believe in the inherent strength of the foundations of Indian democracy that people are not going to be
09:25swayed by what is said but people are going to go by what they see as the reality on the ground.
09:34I think what is happening is the personal attacks on all sides. So India won't go the Nepal or Bangladesh way.
09:40You're drawing a clear distinction between institutions of democracy in India and those in Nepal and Bangladesh.
09:49I am, I believe in the fundamental robustness of our democratic foundations which does not mean we should
09:59take things for granted but I believe that we should not see statements, counter-statements as either the
10:09challenging of democracy or the strengthening of democracy. What Rajneep I think we need is an end to the
10:18war of words and what we need is an end to personal attacks. What we need is not going overboard with words.
10:27Now, even in the Aland Assembly Constituency study, it was an attempt at, now if we were to believe what has happened,
10:38it was an attempt at vote jury and not a vote jury. And this attempt at vote jury has also been acknowledged by
10:45the election commission in its statement. So I think it's important for us to be fair in our analysis of reality.
10:55I think somewhere that fairness of our analysis is caught in the crossfire of these words of politics between parties.
11:04You know Sanjay Jha quickly respond then I'll come to you Rajat because Sanjay Jha, you see Rahul Gandhi tends to speak when he believe in extremities.
11:17He makes, he makes points according to his critics that are reckless. His supporters say he is saying inconvenient truths.
11:25But maybe when you are in politics, sometimes you need to also look at the complexity, the nuance, the point that was made by Sandeep Shastri.
11:33If there was an attempted vote jury or attempt to deletion, it was caught by the election commission.
11:39The fact is an FR was filed. But the sense seems to be that you don't believe in any institution.
11:45You think every institution in this country is somewhere corrupted by the party in power. So there is a almost a nihilism in his politics.
11:53Well, let me tell you, Rajat, I'm glad you asked me that question. You talk of institutions. What did the Supreme Court say on the ED?
12:01It told the ED, why are you fighting political battles? The same ED that harasses the opposition. Is that not the death knell of democracy?
12:11The same Supreme Court that told the ED, why are you behaving like crooks? This is the Supreme Court. I'm not quoting an opposition party.
12:19Is that not literally sounding the bells, literally the extension of democracy?
12:25This is what the BJP has done to the country. We all know that. What has Rahul Gandhi said? You know, Sandeep makes a very technical point.
12:32An acknowledgement or attempt at deletion. It exposes the election commission, which first said online deletions cannot happen, but actually stands contradicted.
12:44And it took the leader of the opposition to sit with his team and put it out in the public domain.
12:50What about the epic issue that the Trinidad Congress raised in West Bengal?
12:55I mean, you know, you know, we get very carried away by our own romanticism with democracy about how many people vote and how many booths are there in a national election.
13:05The bigger issue, Razdeep remains the voter suppression, the kind of threats we saw in Uttar Pradesh to voters and even the EVM issue that remains unresolved.
13:15I think Rahul Gandhi today, like it or not, even his worst critics will have to recognize he's fighting for what matters to this country.
13:23All of us on this program, Razdeep are very privileged English speaking people. Rahul is fighting for the Dalit, the Adivasis, the minorities, the middle class.
13:33He's even fighting for business and industry that is not a crony capitalist. I mean, I believe that's the kind of political leadership that we need.
13:40I'm saying that the BJP is faulted. It came with aspirations. It's failed.
13:44Okay. I think Rahul Gandhi represents a hope. I think he's the future.
13:48Mr. Modi is my opinion in the past.
13:53Rajat Sethi, quick final response to what you're hearing.
13:59Do you believe that the BJP also has been served a bit of a wake-up call?
14:04That they still see any statement of Rahul Gandhi's latched upon the BJP to say,
14:09Oh, Rahul Gandhi, I just heard Devendra Fandavi says an urban Maoist.
14:13He's an urban naqsal. He wants to spread anarchy.
14:16I mean, it's almost as if the opposition is not allowed to speak out without being labelled as an urban naqsal or an anti-national.
14:23He's asking questions. Make you an urban naqsal or an anti-national in this country?
14:28Well, Rahul Gandhi steps up on the stage and says Prime Minister Gaddi Chhodo.
14:34And he is trying to uproot a democratically elected Prime Minister of our country.
14:38Isn't that anarchy?
14:40And then you have, you know, then you're trying to question if BJP retorts.
14:44What should BJP do? Sit in silence and allow Rahul Gandhi to come in and bulldoze everything,
14:50every aspect of our institutional stability of our country.
14:53Chapter one towards Nepal is actually starting, starts by creating doubt around institutions.
14:59This is what Rahul Gandhi is busy doing. He used to say the same against the Supreme Court,
15:04which Sanjay Ji is currently hailing as the biggest keeper of our conscience, of our constitution.
15:10The same Supreme Court has said enough about the CBI and the manhandling of CBI that the UPA Sarkar used to do not too long ago.
15:18My Gen Z friends watching this programme might not know, but I was your age when UPA was in power.
15:24I know what authoritarianism looks like. You have forgotten or you have never experienced that.
15:30So don't go by what Rahul Gandhi is saying. Look at what he has been doing in his actions in states,
15:37where states after states ruled by Congress is unleashing police after journalists
15:41and after God knows how many political activists. That is the real phase.
15:44Now coming to the moot point here. See Rahul Gandhi.
15:47Let's be clear. BJP ruled states are also targeted journalists.
15:59Please let us not take the moral high ground at the moment on creeping authoritarianism.
16:04Therefore, Rajdeep, I did not get onto a moral pedestal the way Sanjay Ji is trying to get onto.
16:10I am not. I know real politics is ugly. I am acknowledging that.
16:14Therefore, I am going back to what Rahul Gandhi said on vote show.
16:17You see, elections happen in a country in a very, very decentralized way.
16:21What you need to do is when draft voter lists are present, you need to have your workers,
16:26your parties, booth workers to look at those lists, flag the deletions at the appropriate time.
16:32There are remedies. If the remedies don't get resolved in a due process or within the due time,
16:38you have all the right to go out and fight for every single vote which has been wrongly deleted.
16:43You cannot preempt that system only because you as a princeling are standing up
16:47and trying to say that everything is stolen in this country.
16:49That is the wrong way to address it.
16:51There is a process that has been laid out after a lot of deliberations over ECs after ECs
16:56for decades and decades in this country.
16:58You cannot come out on a pedestal and try and say things just because you don't have the experience
17:03of running elections at a grassroot level.
17:05Where have you stood and sat together with your people who handle the...
17:09Sir, please wait. Please wait. I did not intervene when you were talking.
17:13Where has he sat together with people who are looking at those forms?
17:17Where has he ever sat with the draft voter list with his own party and looked at list by list
17:22and try to identify why are the reasons why certain names have been deleted and certain not?
17:27Okay.
17:28And try and fight for it in the polling booths.
17:29He is trying to fight it in Delhi and fight it in those Cosmopolitans in the hope that the gent is going to hit the road.
17:35It won't happen. I am sorry to break this news to him and to you.
17:39You can break it to Sanjay Jha but Sanjay Jha, you know there are those who believe Rahul Gandhi is making these statements without accepting the flaws of the Congress and his own leadership.
17:53You see, you want to substitute the lack of reforms within your own party, your failings within your own party, especially the lack of a ground game.
18:01Your BLAs, your boot level agent should have picked this up long time ago whether it was in Maharashtra or in Karnataka they did.
18:08In Maharashtra it was too late.
18:10My point is rather than believe that all institutions are discredited, why don't you actually work on improving your ground game?
18:19Well, Razdeep, let me tell you, all these things happen concurrently in politics.
18:24I mean, just because the Congress lost elections in the past doesn't mean that it has lost the right to win them in the future.
18:30Here are two short responses to what Mr. Sethi said.
18:33And your viewers should know the data.
18:35That the difference, NDA has got around 44% of the total votes in India and Mr. Modi is the Prime Minister.
18:42The India bloc got around 42%, 2% less and Rahul Gandhi is leader.
18:46How much did Nehru get?
18:48One minute, just one minute.
18:49Just one minute, please.
18:50I did not interrupt you, Mr. Sethi.
18:51No, you were.
18:52Here is the point.
18:53So, can you imagine, can you imagine Razdeep?
18:56No, no, no.
18:57One minute, Rajdeep.
18:58Let him finish.
18:59Yeah.
19:00Can you imagine that the BJP and the RSS and the ecosystem calls Rahul Gandhi an anti-national and the opposition an anti-national?
19:07They're insulting all the voters in this country.
19:11They're insulting each and every one of you who have voted for the India Alliance.
19:14They're calling you anti-national because the MPs represent you.
19:18They're calling the people of India anti-national.
19:20Can you imagine the arrogance of this party?
19:22And the second point, you are insulting Gen Z BJP.
19:25Okay.
19:26I mean, Gen Z is not insurrectionists because they are being asked to protect Indian democracy.
19:32Don't insert their intelligence.
19:34Don't insert their vision and commitment to India BJP.
19:37Just because you're intellectually defunct and morally compromised.
19:40Okay.
19:41This is absolutely wrong, Rajdeep.
19:43I'll just have a minute.
19:44This is absolutely wrong.
19:45He's trying to sermonize and try to paint the entire 44% as intellectual defunct.
19:53He claimed that 44% of this India is intellectually defunct.
19:56I take strong objections to this.
19:59He can keep his report card to himself.
20:01Nobody gives two hoots about it.
20:02The country has chosen a leader with an absolute majority.
20:06Okay.
20:07Now, let that government rule.
20:08If you have issues, keep fighting on the streets.
20:10Nobody is stopping you from doing that.
20:12Okay.
20:13One final word from you, Sandeep Shastri.
20:19Do you fear that all of this is because politics has become so hyper polarized that there is
20:24no dialogue?
20:25All of these issues, ideally, even about the election commission should have been settled
20:29possibly in a democracy through dialogue.
20:31But there is no dialogue anymore.
20:33And particularly, the government simply will not even give the opposition the space,
20:38whether in parliament or outside, to have that dialogue anymore.
20:41Nor will the media.
20:43Large sections of the media will shut out the opposition.
20:46There is no doubt that there is this hyper intense polarization.
20:52I'll put it in another way.
20:55Why do debates take the form of we the opposition, they the ruling party, or we the ruling party
21:03and they the opposition?
21:05Why cannot be it a debate of us, the political class, taking a decision?
21:12Why does every debate has to be between one side and another side?
21:17Why does everything have to be made as we versus they?
21:22The country looks at the political class coming up with an us rather than a we and they.
21:35I, on that thought, that we can get away from us and them politics, I try and avoid noise on this program,
21:45so that we can get to hear more voices.
21:48There was a bit of a skirmish between Sanjay and Rajat, but I appreciate both of you listening to each other.
21:55And that perhaps is the way to kickstart a dialogue.
21:57Rajat Sethi, Sanjay Jahar, Sandeep Shastri, appreciate you joining us.
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