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Scotsman Politics: The Steamie Thursday September 18 2025
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00:00The Steamy, a politics podcast from The Scotsman.
00:12Hello and welcome to The Steamy, The Scotsman's politics podcast. It's been another busy week
00:16in Scottish and UK politics as John Swinney attended a state banquet with Donald Trump
00:20at Windsor Castle and MSPs voted to abolish Scotland's unique and centuries old not proven
00:26verdict. I'm Alistair Grant, The Scotsman's political editor and to discuss all that and
00:30more I'm joined by David Ball, The Scotsman's deputy political editor by political correspondent
00:35Rachel Amory and by Katrina Stewart, The Scotsman's education correspondent. But before we get
00:41to all of that I think we've got to discuss a Ramy that has broken out in Holyrood this
00:45afternoon. We're recording this podcast in the Scottish Parliament on Thursday not long
00:50after First Minister's questions in the chamber at the end of which Douglas Ross, the former
00:55Scottish Tory leader, raised a point of order and claimed he was physically assaulted and
00:59verbally abused by SNP Minister Jamie Hepburn in Holyrood on Wednesday.
01:05Mr Ross said Mr. Hepburn grabbed him on the shoulder and held onto him all the way out of
01:10the chamber. He said at the same time he was continually swearing at me and getting more
01:14and more aggressive. Here's a clip of Mr. Ross raising that point of order following First
01:20Minister's questions in Holyrood, followed by another clip of Mr. Hepburn addressing these
01:25claims with journalists shortly afterwards.
01:28Presiding officer, you know what I'm going to mention because I emailed you this morning
01:32seeking to raise this at First Minister's questions. First Minister, as I left the chamber yesterday
01:38I was physically assaulted and verbally abused by your Minister for Parliamentary Business,
01:43Jamie Hepburn.
01:43Through the chair, please, Mr. Ross.
01:48This was the point I would make to the First Minister. I'm wondering if the First Minister
01:52will make a statement and take an opportunity to say that he has a zero-tolerance approach
01:58to threatening and intimidating behaviour by his ministers. I have raised this yesterday afternoon
02:04with parliamentary officials. I notice the Minister for Parliamentary Business is not in the chamber
02:10this afternoon. Therefore, will he be making a statement on this incident later today?
02:15What do you say to respond to Douglas Rossi's allegations that you assaulted and abused
02:20him yesterday?
02:21Well, I will freely press up to things I've done, but I want to apologize for things I've
02:27not done. So yesterday, yeah, I put my hand on his shoulder and probably used a few choice
02:33words I shouldn't have. That's it.
02:35He said that you actually put him with your grip.
02:38Yesterday I put my hand on his shoulder and had a few choice words with him and that's it.
02:42He said you and your effing statements. So many effing statements. Too many effing statements.
02:49Yesterday I used some words that I probably shouldn't have.
02:52Is that what you said then?
02:53I used some words yesterday I shouldn't have.
02:55Is that threatening behaviour?
02:57I used some words I shouldn't have yesterday. Industrious language, I accept. I shouldn't
03:02have done that.
03:02Did he use pause?
03:03I don't say it in a word of pause, though.
03:05I recognize I shouldn't have used that.
03:08Do you think the First Minister has confidence in you as his quip?
03:12Look, I've used language I shouldn't have.
03:14Yeah, but do you think the First Minister has confidence in you today?
03:17I'm holding my hands up to what I've done.
03:19Have you offered him your resignation?
03:22I'm holding my hands up to what I've done.
03:23Have you offered the First Minister your resignation?
03:25I used language I shouldn't have yesterday. I'm sure we've all done that.
03:29Have you used any language for the First Minister in terms of offering your resignation?
03:32That's what I didn't recognize it yesterday.
03:33If you make spoilers, he put his hand on his shoulder and, you know, push him on.
03:36I put my hand on his shoulder.
03:39I relaxed the rest of him. There was no form at all.
03:42I put my hand on his shoulder.
03:43Yeah, I used a few words to show you.
03:44Jamie, do you think you've breached the Ministerial Code?
03:48Look, I've said what happened yesterday. That's all I can say.
03:51But do you think you've breached the Code?
03:52You're not saying that you haven't.
03:53I haven't spoken with him.
03:54Will you apologize to him?
03:56If he wants to speak to me, I'll freely speak to him.
03:58David, you've been working on this story.
04:01It's quite extraordinary, isn't it?
04:03I mean, what's the background to it?
04:05It's quite the rammy.
04:07It does sound a bit daft, but obviously Douglas Ross has gone to the police about this,
04:12or he's going to.
04:13So he's basically alleging that as they came out of the debate yesterday,
04:17on Wednesday, we had a big, quite sombre, ends to the Justice Bill,
04:24which I'm sure we'll come on to,
04:25where there were victims and families in the public gallery waiting for not proven to be abolished.
04:32And basically, Douglas Ross used that sort of in between the debate and the vote
04:36to raise the point of order about a seagull meeting that he'd been excluded from.
04:40And he has got a point.
04:41It does seem to be a bit of a mess.
04:43But that's obviously upset Jamie Hepburn.
04:46And he was asking for a minister's statement, essentially, Douglas Ross.
04:49And Jamie Hepburn's obviously taken offense to this.
04:52And when they've come out of the chamber, he's grabbed him on the shoulder.
04:56Douglas Ross swears it was for more than a minute.
04:59And it was getting tighter and tighter, is how Douglas Ross put it,
05:04and basically was shouting and swearing at him all the way along the corridor,
05:08out the chamber.
05:09And Douglas Ross had basically said that he's too scared to go in the chamber
05:14if Jamie Hepburn is there, that he can't control his anger,
05:18and that John Swinney should sack him as minister
05:20because he's broken the ministerial code by acting in such a way.
05:24Jamie Hepburn said he'll apologize if Douglas Ross wants him to,
05:29but he hasn't just given a flat apology.
05:32Said he used some industrial language and admitted to kind of grabbing him on the shoulder.
05:38So that's where we are at the moment.
05:39John Swinney's basically said he'll look at it as well,
05:42but he hasn't said very much.
05:44The first he knew about it was when it was raised to him
05:46by a journalist after First Minister's Questions.
05:50But yeah, it is quite an extraordinary story,
05:53and First Minister's Questions was very dull.
05:55It was so boring, and this has completely brightened up the news agenda for the day.
06:00Yeah, it's fair to say journalists have seized on this.
06:03I mean, Katrina, we should probably touch about the actual substance
06:06of that debate on Wednesday,
06:08which was the vote to scrap Scotland's controversial not proven verdict
06:12as part of wide-ranging justice reforms.
06:14Now, this is an absolutely huge moment for the justice system, isn't it?
06:18Why did MSPs vote to scrap it?
06:20What's the background to this?
06:23Well, the new legislation that's being moved on this week
06:27is the most seismic shake-up of Scotland's justice system in decades.
06:32And the idea is to make things fairer and easier on victims and witnesses,
06:37as well as the impact that it'll have on accused people.
06:41So Scotland has this weird anomaly.
06:44No other country has this.
06:46We have a third verdict of not proven.
06:49And it essentially means that somebody's been acquitted of a crime,
06:53but critics of it complain that it leaves people with stigma.
06:57I've been a court reporter for years,
07:00and one of the expressions I've heard lawyers use about not proven
07:03is that it's the not guilty but don't do it again verdict,
07:08which I think kind of sums it up.
07:10And one of the problems as well is that it's used quite often
07:13in rape and sexual assault cases.
07:16And Scotland has a lower conviction rate for sexual crimes
07:21than England and Wales.
07:22And the not proven verdict is something that is pointed to
07:26as being part of an issue,
07:28because sometimes juries will go with not proven
07:31if they're just not quite clear.
07:33And it's quite difficult for juries as well,
07:35because not to get too far into the weeds of all of this,
07:38but at the start of trials,
07:40it's not explained to juries the difference
07:42between not guilty and not proven.
07:44So there's a lot of confusion around this.
07:47And there has been talk for decades
07:49about getting rid of not proven
07:50to try and make the justice system a little bit fairer.
07:54There are concerns from the law society,
07:58from lawyers that getting rid of this
08:00is actually going to make things worse
08:01for people who are in court, for the accused,
08:05because they've been looking at the figures previously,
08:10doing pilots previously.
08:11Juries do tend to err on the side of caution
08:15and go with guilty rather than acquitting people.
08:19So there are arguments on both sides
08:21or concerns on both sides,
08:23but this is a huge shift for the Scottish justice system.
08:28And it also includes a change
08:30in how guilty verdicts are decided.
08:31So the makeup of juries is going to be slightly different
08:35in how they come to their verdicts.
08:38So at the moment,
08:39it's a simple majority of eight jurors
08:41to get a verdict
08:42and that's going to change to be two thirds.
08:44So huge changes for the justice system
08:47and getting rid of not proven
08:49is the headline one.
08:53Rachel, sorry, I'll come to you in just a moment,
08:55but David, I know you kind of worked on this story as well
08:57and you covered the parliamentary debate
08:59in Holyrood and the various,
09:00I think it was more than 160 amendments.
09:02It's a debate that went on for a long time.
09:05And there's, as Katrina was saying there,
09:07there's lots of different aspects to this bill
09:09and one of them is the setting up
09:12of a dedicated sexual offences court as well.
09:15I mean, how would, how would that work in practice?
09:18Yeah, so that seems to be the flagship
09:20actual thing within this.
09:21There's obviously lots of different changes
09:23to how the existing court system will work,
09:26but that would basically,
09:29would work within the existing courts,
09:30like physical buildings that we know,
09:32but it would be a sexual offences court
09:34where the victims and witnesses
09:37would all be able to pre-record their evidence.
09:39They'd be treated in,
09:41like they've obviously gone through
09:43a lot of trauma already
09:44and the court experience can kind of add to that.
09:47So Lady Dorian's kind of review into this
09:49recommended that this court be set up
09:51and it would just basically allow them
09:54to have a better experience
09:55going through that court as a witness
09:59and as someone who's sort of giving evidence
10:02if you do it in a lot nicer way,
10:03it would still have the same sentencing powers
10:05as the high court.
10:08So that one's kind of restricted,
10:10doesn't devalue the seriousness
10:12of some of the sexual crimes
10:13that would go to the high court.
10:15But Labour and the Tories
10:17were again setting up a new court,
10:19said it would risk becoming
10:21just kind of a sign on the door,
10:23which is a bit of a disingenuous thing
10:24because during some of the evidence,
10:26I think someone who supported it
10:27said that we need to make sure
10:29this doesn't just become
10:30like a new sign on the door.
10:33But this is something that victims want
10:35and it's something that the Scottish Government
10:36is pledging to do now.
10:39But Andrew Constance is using it
10:42as a reason how they can kind of
10:44get through the court backlog,
10:46which is a huge problem
10:47for the Scottish Government.
10:48This is going to kind of knock out
10:50some of those big weights
10:51that people have for unnecessary hearings,
10:54sort of procedural hearings
10:56that can delay a lot of the cases.
10:58So if it works,
10:59it could be quite revolutionary
11:02for how survivors
11:03and victims of sexual assault
11:06are treated by the courts.
11:08But again, the Scottish Government
11:10are going to have their feet
11:12help to the fire over how this actually works
11:14and how much money it will cost to set up
11:16and whether it will actually deliver
11:17what it promises to do.
11:19One of the interesting things
11:21about the pushback against that as well
11:23is that we already have specialist courts
11:25in Scotland.
11:26So we have the drugs court,
11:27we have the alcohol court.
11:28They work really well.
11:29The outcomes for people
11:31who go through these courts
11:32are really positive
11:33and judges and sheriffs
11:36are specially trained
11:37to deal with people.
11:38it helps when they see the same face
11:41all the time
11:41so you'll be assigned a sheriff
11:42and they will be with you
11:44throughout all of your court appearances.
11:46So it makes sense
11:46that that would make a big difference
11:48for people who've been victims
11:51and survivors of sexual abuse.
11:53So I find some of the pushback
11:56against this quite interesting
11:57because it's not that unusual.
11:58It is something that we already do
12:00in our court system.
12:02Rachel, what did you make of this?
12:03I mean, this is going to be
12:04one of the kind of major pieces
12:06of legislation that will pass
12:07through the Scottish Parliament
12:08this year.
12:09I mean, it's one of the biggest
12:09pieces of legislation
12:11that's dealt with
12:11in terms of its impact
12:13and the overturning of,
12:15you know, centuries of legal history.
12:17It's quite a moment for Hollywood.
12:19Yeah, this is what's quite interesting.
12:21It's Scots law.
12:21It goes back hundreds and hundreds of years.
12:24There's so many sort of traditions here.
12:26And this not proven verdict
12:27is just such a huge part of that.
12:30It's going to be a massive, massive change.
12:31We've already heard some lawyers
12:33on radio and on television
12:35say that they're not happy with it.
12:37I think what's going to happen
12:38is we're going to have to wait
12:39and see how it progresses,
12:41what actually happens.
12:42And then maybe a year after
12:43down the line,
12:44I can look back
12:45and see what changes have been made.
12:47It's difficult right now to say
12:48this will happen
12:49or this will not happen.
12:51But maybe if we sort of
12:53keep our sort of heads calm about it
12:55and then a year after
12:55these changes all get brought in,
12:57then at that point
12:58then we need to reflect
12:59and see how much difference
13:00has been made there.
13:02That being said,
13:02it's a huge amount of work
13:04that the MSPs have put in
13:06over the last couple of days
13:06to try and get this bill through.
13:08So I'm sure they'll all be
13:10wanting to relax this weekend
13:11after such long debates.
13:13It's 160 amendments.
13:15It's probably one of the most
13:16scrutinized sort of bills
13:18that we've sort of seen
13:18in recent years.
13:20Well, from Holyrood
13:22to the glitz and glamour
13:24of Donald Trump's
13:25second state visit to the UK,
13:27there was a press conference
13:27between the President
13:29and Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer
13:30going on right now
13:32or I think it might have just finished
13:33at the time that we're recording this.
13:36We had hoped it would all be over
13:38and done with
13:38so we could talk about it in detail
13:40but no such luck.
13:41However, we do know
13:42that John Swinney
13:43was speaking to journalists
13:44after First Minister's questions
13:46and was saying that he was
13:46further pushing the case
13:48for a deal on whiskey tariffs
13:50when he was at Windsor Castle
13:51on Wednesday.
13:52Katrina, how likely
13:54do you think that deal is?
13:55Because there seems to be
13:56a little bit of expectation management
13:58in terms of what
13:59we can actually expect out of that.
14:01This deal involves
14:02some very large sums
14:04and it's obviously
14:05politically important
14:06and important for the economy
14:08and important for the industry.
14:10I think for John Swinney,
14:11as we've mentioned before,
14:12he has played a blinder here.
14:14No matter what direction this goes,
14:16he can either take
14:17all the credit for it
14:18or if it falls through,
14:19he can blame the UK government
14:21for the failure.
14:22Behind the scenes,
14:25you're saying there's
14:26a less than 50% chance
14:28of it passing.
14:29I'm sure he will have
14:31used the occasion
14:33of the state banquet
14:34to do his best
14:35to try and push Donald Trump
14:36on this.
14:37Whether Donald Trump
14:38was actually listening,
14:39I'd be less convinced.
14:41I thought it was quite interesting
14:42that Ed Davey
14:43said that one of the reasons
14:45that he wasn't going
14:45to go to the state banquet
14:47or a reason
14:48for justifying not going
14:50was that actually
14:51politicians don't get any time
14:53with the dignitaries
14:54who are there
14:55and it's a bit
14:55of a pointless exercise.
14:57So I'm sure John Swinney
14:59had his sharp elbows out
15:00and he was doing his best
15:01to get some face time
15:02with Donald Trump
15:03but I'm not really convinced
15:05that it's going to make
15:06that much difference
15:07in the grand scheme of things.
15:10What do you think, David?
15:13Yeah, I kind of agree.
15:14I mean, Donald Trump
15:16doesn't do anything.
15:17Donald Trump doesn't win.
15:19He's not going to just
15:19concede on something
15:20and John Swinney, yeah,
15:23I think he is just setting up
15:24for the UK government
15:25to be blamed for this
15:26not happening.
15:26He could go,
15:27well, I did everything
15:28and beyond
15:29what I could have been
15:30expected to do
15:31to try and help
15:32and if it doesn't happen
15:35which looks quite likely
15:36it will be Keir Starmer's fault.
15:40So, yeah, it is.
15:42I think John Swinney's
15:43been quite clever
15:43about going out there
15:44making a big deal a bit
15:46but ultimately, yeah,
15:48he's positioned himself
15:49so if it does fall flat
15:50it's not his fault
15:52it's not his responsibility.
15:54I know whiskey
15:56is obviously a huge industry
15:57and jobs are on the line
15:57but if we look ahead
15:58to the election
15:59it would be interesting
16:00to see how voters react
16:01to this sort of thing
16:02because if you look
16:05at the economy
16:05which is why John Swinney
16:07is going out there
16:07it's a big industry
16:08and I'm not sure
16:09that that will have
16:10a big cut through
16:11to the public.
16:11Obviously getting the business
16:13is on side
16:14is a huge deal
16:15especially for the SMP
16:16given their kind of history
16:17with business
16:18under Nicola Sturgeon
16:19where they had a reputation
16:21for not caring as much
16:22as other parties
16:23about business interests.
16:25So it'd be interesting
16:26to see what the public
16:27make of this
16:27particularly the optics
16:29of him cozying up
16:30to Donald Trump
16:31and some of him
16:32his own party
16:33we saw Chris Law
16:34one of Swinney's MPs
16:37tweeting about how
16:39politicians should be
16:41cozying up to him
16:42and then deleted it
16:43when I imagine
16:44someone told him
16:45that John Swinney
16:45was going along.
16:46So the optics of this
16:48are quite tricky
16:48but he obviously thinks
16:50John Swinney thinks
16:50this is worth the risk
16:51to make that case
16:53that he is putting business first
16:55and standing up for Scotland
16:56is how he would kind of bill it.
16:59Yeah I kind of think
16:59that voters will quite
17:00will quite like that
17:01the fact that he's gone in
17:02with a kind of
17:03you know business head on
17:04and he's doing what he thinks
17:06is going to get Scotland
17:07the best deal
17:07regardless of what he thinks
17:09about Donald Trump
17:09and the fact that he's managed
17:10to get this relationship
17:11with the president
17:12you know have that meeting
17:13at the Oval Office
17:14in the White House
17:15I sort of think people
17:16will respect that
17:17even if the
17:18you know no deal
17:20comes at the end of it
17:21the fact that he's gone
17:22through this process
17:22and he's done what he can
17:23and I think
17:24you know it's kind of
17:25what Katrina was saying
17:26that I think John Swinney
17:26has played a blinder in this
17:28he's certainly stolen the
17:29thunder from the UK government
17:30a little bit
17:30in a way that you can tell
17:31that they are quite angry about
17:33really not that happy about
17:35but Rachel just finally
17:38you were outside
17:39the Scottish Parliament
17:39with climate campaigners
17:41this afternoon
17:42who were speaking
17:43to First Minister John Swinney
17:44actually
17:45what were they saying
17:46and what were they protesting about?
17:48Yeah it was immediately
17:49after First Minister's question
17:50so after John Swinney
17:51left the chamber
17:52where you were discussing
17:54all these things
17:55at First Minister's questions
17:55straight out the door
17:57to meet with
17:58Stop Climate Chaos Scotland
17:59they're basically just wanting
18:01to keep on emphasising
18:02just how important
18:03the climate issue is
18:05so we'll hear from John Swinney
18:07where he says that
18:08while politicians
18:09are more than aware
18:10of what is going wrong
18:12with the climate right now
18:13there's not the cohesion
18:14and the unity
18:15that there was a few years ago
18:16on the climate issue
18:17so let's hear from John Swinney
18:18I think members of parliament
18:22are informed
18:23about climate action
18:25but if I express a worry to you
18:28I don't think we've got
18:29as much cohesion
18:30on the necessity
18:32and the imperative for action
18:34as we used it up
18:35and that's so
18:37and this is where I appeal to you
18:40as members of the public
18:42and in Scotland
18:43that I think
18:46I hear
18:47a fracturing
18:49of solidarity
18:52around climate action
18:53so if I go back a few years
18:55parliament
18:56was at one
18:57unified position
19:00on the necessity
19:01of climate action
19:02when I listen now
19:04I hear that's fractured
19:05I don't hear
19:06all that
19:07there's a lot of
19:08there's still an overwhelming majority
19:10in climate action
19:12but I hear a fracturing
19:14of that consensus
19:16and that's obviously
19:17a source of anxiety for me
19:20because it needs to bring
19:23we need unified
19:25societal wide action
19:27to be effective
19:29in tackling climate change
19:30we've also spoken to
19:32Mike Robinson
19:33who is the chair
19:34of Stop Climate Chaos
19:34about how he feels
19:36the government is handling
19:37the climate emergency
19:37do you want to explain
19:39why Stop Climate Chaos
19:41is here at Holyrood today
19:42yes
19:43Stop Climate Chaos
19:45is the largest coalition
19:46ever formed in this country
19:47we have 75 member organisations
19:50with around a million supporters
19:51there's so much desire
19:53to see the government
19:54take action on climate change
19:55and deliver a really strong
19:57climate action plan
19:58but we've had 500 people
20:00from all different
20:01constituencies
20:01from Berwickshire
20:03and the Fischer
20:04right away to one thing
20:05coming here today
20:06to meet their politicians
20:07and demand more action
20:09and get the assurance
20:10that politicians
20:11are taking this issue serious
20:12we don't think that
20:14action has happened
20:15over the last five years
20:15really since the commitment
20:16to the targets
20:17was first made
20:18but I do know
20:20that this government
20:20is committed to it
20:22and hasn't really delivered
20:24but I do think
20:25that's partly
20:26because the issue
20:27has become too partisan
20:28it's becoming
20:28a little bit of a
20:30political football
20:30and we want to remind
20:31politicians
20:32that 80% of people
20:33in the country
20:34want this to happen
20:35we want to be reassured
20:37that this is being
20:38taken seriously
20:39and we've got to start
20:40to come together
20:42and start seeing
20:43this move forward
20:43it's an all-partition
20:44every single party
20:46in the Scottish Parliament
20:47voted for the 2019 target
20:49Is there anything
20:51that you could think
20:51the government could do
20:52right now
20:53that would make
20:53a big difference here?
20:54They really really need
20:55to deliver a proper
20:56really thorough
20:58climate change plan
20:59with real commitments
21:00in it
21:00preferably with funding
21:01and commitments
21:02to education
21:03and housing
21:03it ought to be done
21:05but the climate change plan
21:06is the main deal
21:06Well that's all
21:08we've got time for this week
21:09but thank you very much
21:10for listening to
21:11The Steamy
21:11we'll be back
21:12at the same time next week
21:13for all the latest
21:13news, comment and analysis
21:15in the meantime
21:16please stay tuned
21:17to The Scotsman's website
21:18and thank you again
21:19for listening
21:20The Steamy
21:22a politics podcast
21:23from The Scotsman
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