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The Steamie: From The Scotsman political team - Thursday September 04 2025
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00:01The Steamy, a politics podcast from The Scotsman.
00:13Hello and welcome to The Steamy, The Scotsman's politics podcast. I'm Alster Grant, the political editor of The Scotsman and Holly Roode is back.
00:20Let the nation rejoice. The Scottish Parliament has returned from its summer recess and it's already been a busy few days.
00:26We've had Kenny Badenoch, the UK Tory leader up in Aberdeen talking oil and gas.
00:30We've had John Swinney, the First Minister in Leif in Edinburgh talking about independence.
00:36And we've had Mr Swinney's political opponents, Anna Sarwar, Russell Finlay, the Scottish Tory leader,
00:42at First Minister's Questions, the first First Minister's Questions after recess,
00:46accusing him of a cynical attempt to distract attention away from the Scottish Government's dismal record.
00:51Well, to discuss all this and more, I'm joined by Cat Stewart, the Scotsman's education correspondent,
00:56and by David Ball, the Scotsman's deputy political editor.
01:00But before we dive in, Cat, I've got to ask you about the recent event you did in Edinburgh,
01:05which you interviewed former Prime Minister Boris Johnson on stage at the Usher Hall in Edinburgh.
01:10How did it go, firstly? But also, what was it like to interview Bojo?
01:14Did you get any chat backstage? Was he easy to manage? How did it go?
01:18He was nigh on impossible to manage.
01:23There was really a point at the start of the interview where I thought,
01:26I am surplus to requirements here.
01:28And that was the joke that I made to try and get him to calm down.
01:31So backstage, he was great. He was chatting away.
01:35He gave me lots of insider gossip, which was good and which I'll not repeat.
01:39But as soon as we went on stage, I foolishly asked him an icebreaker question,
01:47which gave him the opportunity to just say whatever he wanted to say.
01:51And he managed to steer the conversation onto the, I'm going to get this wrong,
01:57the proboscis of the blue walrus, which was not where I had expected the conversation to go.
02:04So he was exactly as you would expect.
02:07He was irascible and he was infuriating and he was exceptionally entertaining.
02:14And there were people who had come from all around the world to see him.
02:18There was a chap from Boston.
02:19There was someone who'd come from Japan.
02:21There were a few folk over from Ireland.
02:23So his popularity is still very much there.
02:27He is absolutely confident that he did the right things during his prime ministership.
02:34He wasn't for apologising for anything.
02:37He's completely rolled back from any apology that he made about Partygate.
02:41But I hope it was an entertaining event.
02:44I hope the people who were there had fun.
02:46But I definitely needed a stiff drink at the end of it.
02:49And I think you've got a clip, don't you, of Boris Johnson, I believe, talking about Nicola Sturgeon.
02:57Is that right?
02:58Yes.
02:59I, of course, had to throw in some Scottish flavoured questions, given that we were in Edinburgh's Usher Hall.
03:05And I did ask him about Nicola Sturgeon, because in his book, he is fairly coruscating about her behaviour during the pandemic.
03:13He obviously is not a supporter of Scottish independence.
03:17And he basically makes the case that Nicola Sturgeon's popularity only soared during COVID because she would come out of Cobra briefings and routinely steal his thunder.
03:27But, of course, because it's Boris Johnson, he then very quickly told me that actually that was exactly his playbook when he was London mayor.
03:34So it was a bit of a cheek for him to complain about it.
03:37So I asked him about Nicola Sturgeon.
03:39I made the suggestion that there was no love lost between the two of them.
03:43And he said, in fact, that was completely wrong.
03:47And this clip will explain why.
03:49Look, I mean, so first of all, I want to challenge you all.
03:52I always got on quite well personally with her.
03:54I've read both of your books.
03:56Have you?
03:56We don't need to pretend.
03:58Well, no, I mean, she's so...
04:00But, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
04:02Katrina, she's read, she's not only read my...
04:05I'm interviewing her on Sunday.
04:06Well, you were asking, she gave it, she gave it a jolly nice review.
04:10She gave Unleashed a particularly nice review in...
04:13in, um, the New Statesman.
04:16So, I mean, go figure.
04:18So I, I mean, I'm actually, I'm going to hear a word against her.
04:21Um, plus, plus, thanks to, thanks to Nicola,
04:26I think the union is, is safe for a long time.
04:28Um, you know, I think, I think, I think the, I think the dogs barked and the, the, the caravan moved on,
04:40or rather the caravan stayed, the caravan stayed, you know, under, under the control of police Scotland,
04:46still still waiting for forensic inspection.
04:49Um, you know, I, I, I really think that she's, I think that what happened during, yes, it's true
04:56that during COVID, she was, she was very politically adroit.
05:04And she was always totally running wings around me.
05:07So we'd have these, these Cobra meetings or cabinet sessions, and Nicola would be there.
05:12Um, we would agree something, we would agree that, you know, I would go out and, and, and, and address the nation on the BBC.
05:18And, you know, I, I, I'd, I'd still be stumbling through from, uh, from the meeting, underground meeting room to, to my, uh, office to, to get my statement ready.
05:30And I, I, I'd go to, as I'd pass, I'd see the TV screen, that was Nicola already, you know, sort of claiming credit for whatever,
05:37whatever stringent measure had been applied, saying it wasn't, you know, tough enough, um, whatever.
05:43And so she was, she was brilliant at that. And she, she understood that, at the time, that I think possibly less in retrospect, but at the time,
05:53people wanted the most savage lockdown possible. And so she always, she always beat me on that.
06:02She could always say, well, in Scotland we do this, and, and, and, and made it look as though the UK government was being,
06:13unfeeling and, um, you know, less, less concerned about, about health, which, which, which, which wasn't true.
06:19Um, so, so, you know, I take, I take my hat off to, uh, uh, for that, but, you know, um, in the end,
06:29I think that the experience of COVID really massively proved, and in quite an emotional way, to me,
06:38the, the, the, the, the weight and power of the union. And honestly, I mean, it made me weep sometimes going to,
06:46going around and seeing UK armed forces putting in vaccine centers or whatever, um, uh, across, in Scotland as well.
06:57Uh, moving patients around, you know, seriously ill people. And, you know, watching, um, test, test centers in, in Glasgow, or whatever.
07:11Uh, uh, uh, people looking at, um, test kits that had come up from Essex in Glasgow, because Glasgow is the best place to do it.
07:20And, you know, we had a national campaign. We had a national health service. And we had a, a, a, a UK exchequer. We had the treasury funding it.
07:35And, you know, I, I think, I don't know what, I think COVID was a pretty knockdown argument in favor of sticking together. I really, really do.
07:47And, um, I mean, there are plenty of other ones, um, too. But, but that, that was, um, I'd like when the foreign policy started.
08:02Can you imagine the UK decapitated without Scotland in the UN Security Council? You know, it, it, it wouldn't be the same.
08:16You were touching on lots of things that I do want to, to come to. I wonder, was it frustrating to you that Nicole Sturgeon's popularity soared just during COVID?
08:23You are scathing in Unleashed about her determination to insist that Scotland's restrictions were, were distinct from England.
08:31Yeah, I don't think, I, I don't think I was, I mean, I didn't mean to be scathing. I was just, you know, she, as I said just now, she, she had the, I, I, by the way, I, I was, when I was mayor of London, I gotta, I gotta confess, I used to do the same thing.
08:45So, so when, when, when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister, I would go to Cobra sometimes and there'd be something that had happened and, you know, people wanted a statement from the mayor of London immediately on, cause it was some terrorist thing or whatever.
08:59And, you know, I didn't wait for national government to say something. I went out there and, and I, I know it cheesed off, central government, but, you know.
09:11So that was Boris Johnson talking to Cat Stewart on stage at the Usher Hall. And, Cat, I mean, in a way, Boris Johnson and Nicola Sturgeon have similarities in the sense that they are politicians who've got that kind of cut through, they've got a following, they've got a kind of fandom, they've got people who, I mean, you were talking to people coming from all over the world to see Boris Johnson. There's not many politicians that would have that. It's so rare, isn't it?
09:34Absolutely. I think they would both reject the comparison with each other. But I think on the points that you make, it's absolutely true. And there were a few points during the evening where Boris Johnson made the case for certain things that actually is not too dissimilar from Nicola Sturgeon's position on those same issues. And, and I had a little bit of fun pointing those out.
09:55I'm actually also interviewing Nicola Sturgeon this week, at a similar event in Aberdeen. So I'm quite looking forward to putting some of Boris Johnson's points directly into the former First Minister. But yes, as far as personalities go, as far as that star quality goes, it's really difficult to see anybody else, certainly in Scottish politics at the moment, who has that kind of draw, that sort of appeal, and is able to command a stage in that way.
10:22Because Nicola Sturgeon is very good at getting in front of a crowd. She claims that she's shy, but that doesn't come across. She's very good at getting in front of a crowd, giving them exactly what they want, and engaging with people.
10:33And that's what Boris Johnson did on Tuesday evening. He definitely had that crowd. And of course, yes, it's a home crowd, it's people who have paid good money to go and see him, but he had them eating out of his hand.
10:42And he's very, very charismatic, very engaging. And there were points during the night where I just sort of, my brain kept glitching, and I kept thinking, is this actually happening, or am I having some weird dream?
10:55I didn't wake up at any point. It definitely happened.
10:59Yeah, I mean, I think it's a charisma that a lot of other politicians would kill for. I mean, many politicians are very personable. That's part of the reason that they get elected by their constituents,
11:07or selected in the first place by their political parties. But to have that kind of magnetic star quality, I think, is so rare.
11:15But David, this is, as I say, the first week back of the Scottish Parliament at a recess.
11:20It feels like it's been all about setting the scene for the long campaign into the Hollywood election next year.
11:25You got up an ungodly hour earlier this week to drive to Aberdeen for a 9am press event with Kenny Badenow.
11:33What did she say?
11:34Yeah, so this was the UK Conservative leader on the back of making a quite bold kind of pledge on oil and gas,
11:45basically that we should have unlimited drillings. She's trying to put a bit of distance between the Tories and reform,
11:51although Nigel Farage has already been up to Aberdeen to make quite a similar pledge.
11:56But she was coming up with a backdrop to this was Russell Finley under a lot of pressure, the Scottish Conservative leader.
12:01So she was repeatedly asked about whether she supports him and the defections that we've seen.
12:08One to the Lib Dems, one to Citizen Independent and one MSP going directly to reform.
12:14And she basically said that she wasn't that fussed, to be perfectly honest,
12:18and that if they're not Conservatives and they don't want to be here, then they're welcome.
12:22Nigel Farage is welcome to them. It's basically what she said.
12:24She backed Russell Finley 100 percent, admitted that it's a difficult time for the party.
12:30But also she's making out that, well, we've just got through the general election,
12:36which we're decimated and it's going to take time to kind of recover.
12:39But Russell Finley doesn't have any time because in May he's going to the voters again.
12:43Not a problem that she has. But obviously for Russell Finley, it's not looking great.
12:47But her showing up, I think, would be a boost to Russell Finley.
12:50And I thought he was quite confident at FMQs today.
12:54I was in the chamber and a lot of his MSPs were more vocal than they've been for a long time
12:59at what he was saying.
13:01So maybe he will get a bit of confidence from Kenny Badner coming up
13:05and his remaining MSPs backing him quite vocally.
13:08And Cal, on the issue of the kind of long Holyrood campaign,
13:13John Swinney was in Leaf this morning talking about independence.
13:16He was talking about the need to give Scots a fresh vote on this issue.
13:20He said it's never been more important, more urgent or more necessary.
13:24He was talking again about his kind of new idea of the SNP winning a majority of seats
13:28at next May's Holyrood election.
13:30And that being the kind of the precedent obviously was set in 2011
13:34when they won a majority of seats that led to the 2014 independence referendum.
13:39John Swinney effectively saying that needs to happen again.
13:42But we've heard a lot of this before, haven't we?
13:45And it just seems like kind of Groundhog Day a bit.
13:49It does.
13:50And that has been the main attack point today from the opposition
13:54and also from broadcasters, from journalists.
13:57I heard Angus Robertson on Good Morning Scotland
14:01trying to talk about this paper, defend this paper.
14:04and it was put to him that this is the 14th in a series of papers
14:08from the SNP government.
14:09There's almost nothing new in it.
14:11How does this progress the case?
14:13And there isn't really an answer to that.
14:16There's been suggestions that there should be a bit more
14:18about what an SNP government would do.
14:21But that's not where we are at this moment.
14:24This is all just about the mechanism for achieving independence.
14:28And of course, that is a crucial question
14:30for natural SNP supporters,
14:32for people who want to move towards a point
14:35where there is a second independence referendum.
14:37But for other voters, this is going to leave them cold.
14:40So again, John Swinney is walking that very difficult tightrope
14:45between giving the SNP supporters,
14:47supporters, the core supporters, what they need to hear,
14:50which is how are we going to get to the point
14:52of having another independence referendum,
14:54while also making sure that he's not alienating other voters
14:57who actually, the only way of reaching those people
15:00is good governance.
15:03And they may feel that this is just a distraction technique,
15:07allowing them not to talk about the issues
15:11that have been really affecting the party.
15:13I'm just going to go back for a second,
15:16if you will indulge me, Al,
15:18because I was just talking about Russell Finlay
15:21and one of the little bits of gossip
15:23that I'll reveal from behind the scenes
15:25was during the interval at the Usher Hall,
15:29Boris Johnson was asking me
15:30what my advice would be to Kemi Badenoch
15:33in reviving the Conservatives.
15:35And I said, that's not my place at all.
15:37I have no advice whatsoever for Kemi Badenoch.
15:40But in a Scottish context,
15:41we're far more interested in what advice
15:44should be given to Russell Finlay
15:45because we have Hollywood election around the corner.
15:48And Boris Johnson looked absolutely blank.
15:51And I realized it was because
15:53he didn't know who I was talking about.
15:55And I clarified that with him.
15:57And he had never heard of Russell Finlay.
15:59He didn't know what he was talking about.
16:01And in the course of the conversation,
16:03I had to jog his memory three times
16:04as to Russell Finlay's name.
16:06And I think that kind of sums up
16:08Russell Finlay's problem at the moment
16:10because we were talking just on this podcast
16:12about Russell's problem
16:17in getting his message across
16:19and establishing himself as a player
16:21on the Scottish political landscape
16:23because he is charismatic
16:25and he does have personality.
16:28And he has just so far failed to get it across
16:30to the point that a former prime minister
16:32doesn't know who he is for his own party.
16:36Though to be fair,
16:37he also struggled to dredge up Douglas Rossett's name.
16:39I mean, that is a sensational bit of gossip.
16:44But in some ways, it's not surprising
16:47that Boris Johnson doesn't know that in some ways.
16:49I mean, it's awful, but it's not surprising.
16:52And I think you're right.
16:53That's exactly the problem that Russell Finlay has.
16:55I mean, if Boris Johnson doesn't know who he is,
16:57you can rest assured that
16:59a vast swath of the public has no idea either.
17:03They don't know anything about him.
17:05They don't know what he stands for.
17:06I mean, David, what do you make of this particular issue?
17:10I mean, I was speaking to someone in Labour today
17:11who was talking about, referring to the SNP,
17:15that if the SNP was polling anywhere near
17:17what they used to poll,
17:18they wouldn't be bothering doing events like today
17:21this far out from the election.
17:22That this is all about just trying to shore up
17:24their core vote,
17:25appeal to those people who are still,
17:28you know, massive independence supporters
17:29and say to them, you know,
17:30we haven't forgotten about this issue.
17:32That that's the only point in today.
17:33It's not really about anything else.
17:37I think that's probably a fair point.
17:39I mean, it is a fact that more people support independence
17:42than support the SNP at the moment.
17:43So trying to get some of that momentum
17:46into John Swinney's sales is not a bad idea,
17:49but as Kat mentioned,
17:50it risks alienating those SNP supporters
17:53and other voters who are turned off
17:56by the idea of independence.
17:57It's a bit cheeky as well
18:00to use the Scottish government money
18:01to fund a paper
18:02and then launch it at a party political event.
18:05I thought it's a bit,
18:06I can see what they can do it.
18:08It's fine.
18:09Once the government's kind of published it,
18:11they can kind of do what they want.
18:13One of John Swinney's officials
18:14was asked at a briefing after FMQs
18:16whether it was one of these set of papers
18:19and was insisting it is completely separate to that.
18:22It does seem a bit flimsy.
18:23There's not really anything in it
18:25that you wouldn't have learned
18:26from reading any of the other papers
18:27or just listening to what the SNP has been saying
18:30on independence for,
18:32well, since the last referendum.
18:33I do think he is trying to ensure
18:36that the SNP conference is not a disaster for him.
18:41That's the last thing he'll need
18:42going into that election
18:43is vocal anger and kind of disdain
18:47from the SNP members.
18:49So I think trying to placate that
18:52is in his interest,
18:54but there's no substance there
18:57that is obvious to see.
18:59So it is a tricky one
19:00and it just opens it up
19:02to criticism that they are focusing on independence
19:07rather than other issues.
19:10John Swinney, when he came into office,
19:11made it very clear that he understood
19:13that there were more pressing things
19:14that people cared about
19:16and that obviously hasn't lasted now.
19:18We're approaching the election
19:19and he's getting internal pressure.
19:21So it will be interesting
19:22to see what happens at the conference
19:24and whether he can kind of
19:25get a bit of momentum from that
19:27to push onto the election.
19:29But yeah, he's trying to please
19:31a lot of different people
19:32and it is quite easy to backfire.
19:35And I think a lot of people
19:36will just find this slightly tedious
19:38because, you know, it's John Swinney.
19:40He's so slow and steady and cautious
19:41and he was saying at the event this morning
19:44that this is really the only route
19:45that he can take
19:46to politely ask Westminster
19:48for another referendum.
19:50And I think that will be really off-putting
19:52to a lot of voters
19:52who are just like,
19:53not this again,
19:54not more Hollywood versus Westminster tussle.
19:57We just don't have the energy for it.
19:59We have so many other issues
20:00that we have to consider
20:02and it's such a kind of brief argument.
20:06We're going to ask for a referendum.
20:08They're going to say no, the end.
20:10You know, I think it's really difficult
20:12to sort of invigorate people
20:14towards that position.
20:17Yeah, I mean, Kat,
20:18I wanted to ask you about
20:19another aspect of John Swinney's speech
20:21when he was talking about immigration,
20:23migration, the whole debate in the UK
20:24that we've been having about this.
20:26He was saying that some of the language
20:27coming from Westminster over the summer
20:29was chilling.
20:30He included Keir Starmer's language in that.
20:33He was talking about Keir Starmer
20:35toadying along with Nigel Farage.
20:37That was John Swinney's words.
20:38He's obviously trying to put down
20:41a clear dividing line
20:42between the SNP's position on this
20:44and Labour's position
20:45because Scottish Labour
20:46will ultimately be associated
20:47with whatever is being said
20:49by Keir Starmer, the UK Labour Party.
20:52Do you think this is fertile ground
20:53for John Swinney?
20:54I think this is absolutely fertile ground
20:56for John Swinney
20:57because it's one of the areas
20:59where the SNP absolutely differs
21:01from the other party.
21:03And Labour should have been walking
21:04a middle ground.
21:05Labour has always had questions
21:07about immigration
21:09but it's just that previously
21:10those questions were nuanced
21:12and they were framed
21:14in a compassionate way
21:15whereas now Keir Starmer
21:17is just trotting behind Nigel Farage.
21:20He is doing the same thing
21:22that Farage is
21:23which is mixing up asylum
21:25and refugee issues
21:27with irregular migrant issues
21:29and just terming everything
21:31as being illegal immigration
21:33which is detrimental to the country.
21:35The SNP government
21:36has always been framed
21:38as being welcoming to migrants
21:41because Scotland
21:41has very different needs
21:42from England.
21:43We have an ageing population.
21:45We have a more rapidly
21:46falling birth rate.
21:47We have skills shortages.
21:49We have a university sector
21:51with free degrees
21:53for resident Scots students
21:57that is completely underpinned
21:58by attracting overseas students
22:01to come and shore up universities
22:03financially.
22:04The picture is very, very different.
22:06So Nicola Sturgeon in particular
22:08was always very supportive
22:09of immigration
22:09but also she had a constituency
22:12that was incredibly diverse
22:13and one of the things
22:15that she was very good at
22:16was literally sometimes
22:18wearing the t-shirt
22:19and saying refugees are welcome here.
22:21We support immigration.
22:22We support migrants.
22:25Keir Starmer
22:25should be somewhere in the middle.
22:28He should be saying
22:29there are occasions
22:30where we need immigration
22:31but also we have to be careful
22:33about illegal migration.
22:35We have to address the concerns
22:37that people have
22:37particularly in English towns
22:40where I'm not convinced
22:42that all the concerns are legitimate
22:43but some of the concerns
22:45are legitimate
22:46whereas he is just following
22:48in the wake of Farage
22:49and I find some of the language
22:52really, really frightening,
22:54really off-putting
22:55and absolutely unsuitable
22:56from a Labour government
22:58and I wish that it was
22:59much more political pushback.
23:00I think John Swinney
23:01is about the only political leader
23:03at the moment
23:03who's getting the tone right
23:05on immigration.
23:07What do you think, David?
23:08Because I know this is something
23:08that you've got quite an interest in
23:10as well
23:11and that you can follow this debate
23:12and you've written a bit about
23:13the situation in Glasgow, for example.
23:14Yeah, I think that's right.
23:18I mean, there is a lot
23:19of misinformation out there.
23:20I mean, we have like
23:21Sandesh Galhani, a Tory MSP,
23:23a FMQ is bringing up
23:25and calling these people
23:27sort of illegal immigrants
23:28and it's not people
23:29who've come here legally to work.
23:31So I do think the SNP
23:33has got a lot of capital
23:34to be seen to be
23:36on the side of immigrants
23:38and refugees.
23:39I think it's fair to say
23:41that Keir Starmer
23:41is the most right-wing
23:43Prime Minister
23:44on immigration
23:45we've had in a long time.
23:46I would put him
23:47in par with some
23:48of the Conservative Prime Ministers
23:50we've seen
23:50over the last few decades
23:52of the rhetoric.
23:53And we talked last week
23:54about Russell Finlay
23:55trying to kind of mimic
23:56reform
23:58and you can't out-reform, reform.
24:00And on this one issue,
24:01Keir Starmer is
24:02kind of tongue-tied on it.
24:04He thinks that this will
24:05stop people
24:06wanting to vote for reform
24:08if he's looking at those
24:08quite drastic polls.
24:10UK-wide.
24:12So I do think
24:13there is space there
24:13for the SNP
24:14to take advantage of that.
24:16And it's not
24:17trying to be opportunistic.
24:19I think it is
24:19a genuine belief
24:21within the SNP.
24:22It has been
24:23for at least 20 years
24:25that they want Scotland
24:26to be a welcoming country.
24:28And people are angry
24:30about some of the
24:31lack of pushback
24:32from Labour on...
24:33I mean, Nigel Farage's speech
24:34the other week
24:36where there was quite
24:37overt racist language
24:39and the Prime Minister's
24:40spokesperson just refused
24:41to criticise any of it.
24:43It's just
24:43the absence of that
24:45is angering a lot of people
24:47and I think there is
24:48something there
24:49for the SNP
24:50to stand
24:50head and shoulders above.
24:54Yeah.
24:54Just finally,
24:55on the kind of election
24:57countdown,
24:58as it were,
24:59we've obviously got
25:00the SNP conference
25:01coming up
25:01in October.
25:03Kat,
25:04how do you think
25:04the party is...
25:06What kind of shape
25:07do you think the party
25:08is in coming
25:09into that conference?
25:10I mean,
25:10do you think
25:10that John Swinney
25:12will be approaching it
25:13with dread
25:14or with a sense of cheer?
25:16How do you think
25:17they stand at the moment?
25:18I'm not sure
25:19John Swinney
25:20ever really feels dread.
25:21He's so sort of
25:22neither up nor down
25:23emotionally.
25:26I think there is
25:27a lot of work
25:28for the party
25:29to be doing.
25:29I don't think
25:30it's going to be
25:30a particularly
25:31easy conference.
25:32They are more worried
25:33behind the scenes
25:34about Labour
25:34than they'll let on.
25:36They're certainly
25:37worried about
25:37the rise of reform
25:38and how to tackle that.
25:39And again,
25:40I keep saying it,
25:41there doesn't really
25:42seem to be
25:42a clear initiative
25:43from any of the parties,
25:44not even the SNP,
25:46about what to do
25:47about reform.
25:48Some of the infighting
25:50behind the scenes
25:50has definitely quieted,
25:52but there's so much
25:53to be discussed
25:54at this conference.
25:55They are looking better
25:56than they have done
25:57certainly since
25:59last conference,
26:01I would say,
26:02to be fair.
26:02But I don't think
26:04there's anxiety
26:05from John Swinney.
26:06I'm not sure
26:06he's completely
26:07looking forward to it,
26:08but I don't think
26:09it's going to be chaotic,
26:12which is not good
26:12from a journalist
26:13point of view.
26:14But there's a lot
26:16of really meaty
26:17discussions to be had
26:18in the run-up
26:18to the election.
26:20Yeah, I always,
26:21I don't want to
26:21put a dampener
26:23on this already,
26:24but I always think
26:25that conferences
26:25are overplayed
26:26by journalists
26:27in the sense
26:27that there's always
26:28a kind of sense
26:28that, oh,
26:29this is going to be
26:30the conference
26:30where rows break out
26:31into the open,
26:32that people are
26:33going to be challenging
26:33John Swinney over
26:34independence.
26:34I just don't think
26:35it has really
26:37in the past
26:37ever worked out
26:38that dramatically,
26:39but who knows
26:40this time around.
26:41David, I did want
26:42to finish off
26:42by asking you
26:43how you thought
26:44Ross Greer's
26:45first FMQs
26:46as a Scottish Green
26:47co-leader went.
26:49You followed
26:49the Green Leadership
26:50Conference quite closely.
26:52Ross Greer
26:52has seen as quite
26:53a decent
26:54parliamentary performer.
26:55How did you think
26:56it went for him?
26:59Yeah, I think
27:00it was quite a textbook
27:01Ross Greer performance.
27:02He kind of hit
27:03his greatest hits.
27:04He mentioned
27:04council tax reform,
27:06tax the rich.
27:07Yeah, I think
27:08he'll be quite pleased
27:09with the kind of
27:10message he got across.
27:11The election on Friday
27:12saw him and
27:13Julian Mackay
27:14become the new leaders,
27:16although only about
27:1712 or 13%
27:18of Green members
27:19voted for
27:20or voted at all.
27:21So that is a problem
27:23for the Greens.
27:24But if they look
27:25ahead to the election,
27:26they are
27:26due to pick up seats.
27:28It's a positive thing
27:29for them.
27:30They'll be quite
27:31looking forward
27:32to going into that election.
27:34I thought
27:34Ross Greer's first
27:35FMQs was what
27:36you'd expect.
27:37He picked the issues
27:38that matter to him
27:38and that he's been
27:39kind of banging on
27:40about for quite some time
27:42and not getting
27:43really much of a response
27:44from the Scottish
27:46government.
27:46We all know
27:47he's quite close
27:48to John Swinney,
27:49but it would be
27:51interesting to see
27:51how that kind of
27:52relationship develops
27:53over the next
27:54few weeks
27:54if he is trying
27:56to get good answers
27:56from him.
27:57In the lead up
27:58to the election,
27:58it might become
27:59a bit more hostile
28:00and a bit more
28:00aggro between
28:02the two parties,
28:02but we'll just have
28:03to wait and see
28:04what happens
28:05after the election.
28:06The Greens
28:06could play an
28:07important part
28:07in their government
28:10next year,
28:11maybe not the
28:11Butte House
28:12agreement again,
28:13but they could
28:13definitely be
28:14propping up
28:14an SNP government
28:15if the numbers work.
28:17So it would be
28:17interesting to see
28:18how that dynamic
28:19plays out.
28:20Yeah,
28:22I thought the
28:22Green leadership
28:23election,
28:24the turnout
28:24was astonishingly
28:25low among their
28:26members.
28:26I mean,
28:27it basically
28:27worked out
28:28about 4%
28:29of the membership
28:30backing Ross Greer
28:31and Gillian
28:33Mackay to be
28:33co-leaders,
28:34which is just
28:35crazy.
28:36If I was them,
28:37I'd be massively
28:38concerned about that
28:38and I'm sure they are.
28:40Well,
28:40that's all we've got
28:41time for this week.
28:42Please stay tuned
28:43to the Scotsman's
28:44website for all the
28:44latest news,
28:45comment and analysis
28:46and we'll be
28:47back at the same
28:48time next week
28:48when I'm sure
28:49there'll be lots
28:49more happening
28:50in Holyrood.
28:51Thank you very
28:52much for listening.
28:55The Steamy,
28:56a politics podcast
28:57from the Scotsman.
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