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An exclusive look inside a jury room during deliberations in a criminal trial in Wisconsin.

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00:01Funding for Frontline is provided by this station and other public television stations nationwide
00:07and by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.
00:11Tonight, on Frontline, the first television cameras ever inside a jury.
00:16The man is guilty. Guilty as sin.
00:19I don't care what the law says. Has justice been done?
00:23Twelve ordinary people decide the fate of one man.
00:27The real-life drama of deliberations in a criminal trial.
00:31The final decision is up to you, and more important, you have the power, despite all the technical legality,
00:38to finally believe not guilty.
00:41Tonight, Inside the Jury Room.
00:52From the network of public television stations,
00:55a presentation of KCTS Seattle,
00:58WNET New York,
01:00WPBT Miami,
01:02WTVS Detroit,
01:04and WGBH Boston.
01:06This is Frontline,
01:09with Judy Woodruff.
01:14Good evening.
01:15Last year, for the first time ever on television,
01:18cameras were allowed into the jury room to witness a jury's deliberation.
01:23Tonight, we will rebroadcast our program about that unprecedented access.
01:29It was the result of a three-and-a-half-year-long effort by Frontline producers Steve Hertzberg and Al Levin
01:36to gain access to a jury in order to learn about the process, the psychology, and the group dynamics of this most fundamental part of our legal system.
01:46First, they had to win the cooperation of a judge before they could even begin to try to find a case.
01:53Then, not only did they have to find a case where the prosecution, the defense, and the jurors would all agree to participate,
02:01but also find one in which the principles of law and justice, and not questions of fact, would be debated.
02:08Tonight, in the case of the state of Wisconsin versus Leroy Reed,
02:14you get to watch a dozen strangers become a jury.
02:18Discover their power and debate its use.
02:21Then you yourself may reach a surprising verdict on what it means to be a juror.
02:27Our program is called Inside the Jury Room.
02:30It is produced by Al Levin and Steve Hertzberg.
02:34This is going to be a criminal trial.
02:41The state has accused the defendant Leroy Reed of violating the criminal law
02:46by being a convicted felon in the possession of a firearm.
02:51This jury of seven men and five women will decide the fate of an ex-convict
02:57who is accused of illegally owning a gun.
03:00It will thus be the task of this jury to decide whether the state has proven him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
03:10Leroy Reed, 42, had a clean record since his release from prison nine years ago.
03:15Then he got the notion he could become a private detective, and he went out and bought a gun.
03:21I was looking at TV to get ideas about being an investigator, especially like this one person that comes on TV, this equalizer, you know.
03:40He comes on TV to help people out.
03:47More or less job opportunity.
03:55Well, I'm anxious to get into job opportunity as an investigator, you know.
04:05Reed was prosecuted by the Milwaukee District Attorney's Office, which is cracking down on gun control violations.
04:11D.A. Mike McCann.
04:12I feel strongly about firearms.
04:14We have a policy directing assistant district attorneys to act aggressively in firearms cases.
04:20For that reason, we take this case seriously and every other firearms case very seriously.
04:26I just completed, a month and a half ago, a firearm violation where two officers were slain.
04:32The individual who I prosecuted personally for it was illegally carrying a .22 firearm very similar to the one in this case.
04:40When the officer went to pat him down, he pulled out that firearm and shot to death two city of Milwaukee police officers.
04:49The gun possession charge Reed faced was serious, and by exercising his right to a jury trial, he put his case in the hands of twelve everyday citizens.
04:59This jury, and all juries in criminal cases, stand as a buffer between the accused and the power of the state.
05:07Please rise.
05:15Once inside the jury room, the panel is on its own.
05:18They have been told only to follow the judge's instructions and to reach a unanimous verdict.
05:24Before starting their deliberations, they pick a foreman, a task they perform quickly and casually.
05:31Let's choose a foreperson before we do any reading or whatever.
05:38Unless somebody else wants it, you're it.
05:42I don't care one way or another.
05:44It doesn't matter.
05:45All a foreperson does is puts his name in a document.
05:49During the two-day trial, the jurors were not allowed to discuss the evidence with each other.
05:54Now, for the first time, they are able to talk about a case that had a very unusual beginning.
06:00In his opening statement to the jury, Reid's lawyer, public defender Charles Blaha, made a startling admission that Reid had indeed broken the law.
06:10First thing, I'll tell you right now, right off the top, right before the first witness, Leroy Reid's a convicted felon.
06:17And, on December 7th of last year, eleven months ago, he bought a gun.
06:23I'll tell you that right off the top.
06:25There's going to be no dispute about that.
06:27The second thing I'll tell you, he ought to be acquitted anyway.
06:32Because he never should have been charged in the first place.
06:36The possession charge against Reid came to light only because he himself produced the incriminating evidence.
06:42He had been hanging around the courthouse when a detective asked him for identification.
06:47He produced a sales slip from Spiris Sporting Goods, which had his name on there as Leroy Reid.
06:58Inexplicably, Reid handed over the bill of sale for the gun he had bought.
07:03He was turned over to the sheriff's office.
07:05He told me that he needed the gun because he was taking some kind of a correspondence course as a private investigator.
07:13And he needed the gun to go along with the badge which he had on his person at the time I was talking to him.
07:18When it was learned that Reid had a criminal record, he was told to go home and bring in the gun.
07:23Mr. Reid came into my office and he stated that he had a gun that he wanted to turn over to the sheriff's department detective bureau.
07:34And I told him, all right, I'll take you up to the sheriff's department and we'll turn it over.
07:45When Reid turned in the gun, he was immediately arrested and held in jail.
07:50I solemnly swear that the testimony that you are about to give in this trial will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.
07:56I do.
07:57Please state your name, spell your last name.
07:59The defense strategy was simple.
08:01His lawyer put Reid on the stand to show that in trying to find work, he had signed up for a mail order detective course that he'd seen advertised in a magazine.
08:10And then he bought the gun.
08:12The defense attorney wanted the jury to see Reid as a well-intentioned man of limited ability.
08:17Did you have to fill out a form when you bought the gun?
08:20Yes.
08:21What kind of form?
08:23Just the everyday form.
08:25You see where it says date of birth?
08:28Yeah.
08:29You put three.
08:30Yeah, I forgot to put the other.
08:35Now, why did you put three under your date of birth?
08:39I forgot to put the fill in the rest of it.
08:44I'd like you, if you could, to take a look at this part of the form right here, 8B.
08:49Okay?
08:50Okay.
08:51See it there?
08:52Right.
08:53Can you read me the first sentence in that, please?
08:55My reading is kind of difficult.
08:56Well, go ahead.
08:57You'll have a try.
08:58I would have trouble.
08:59That's all right.
09:00Uh...
09:01Yeah, I didn't mind.
09:04Would you like some water?
09:06No, my mind is not kind of heavy for reading.
09:09All right.
09:10Well, do you not want to read it?
09:12No.
09:13No.
09:14Okay.
09:15The only other witness for the defense was a psychologist who said that Reed read at the
09:19second grade level and that he had borderline intelligence.
09:24Not quite within the retarded range, but substantially sub-average compared to the average person or the population as a whole.
09:32At the end of the trial, both sides made their closing arguments.
09:36Assistant District Attorney Douglas Simpson argued that the jurors were obligated to uphold the law, whatever their sympathetic feelings for Leroy Reed.
09:45There's an old saying in the law that ignorance of the law is not a defense.
09:49You indicated that none of you would speculate.
09:52You wouldn't be looking for some sympathetic reason or some conjured-up reason to avoid your responsibility.
10:02That, in fact, the same law applies to everybody.
10:06If there's a statute or if there's a law, as the court gives it to you, you would apply that law to those facts no matter who the person was.
10:16Whether they're short, tall, black, white, none of those kinds of things like race, weight, height.
10:23Mental ability would be a factor in your mind.
10:27A person who has possessed a firearm, with knowledge that they possessed a firearm, while being convicted of a felony, has violated that statute.
10:39The person is guilty.
10:42In his closing argument, Reed's lawyer urged the jury to refuse to follow the law.
10:48The law is being misapplied to these facts.
10:53We've heard all about people getting off on technicalities.
10:57A situation where somebody's getting nailed on technicality.
11:00You have the power, despite all the technical legality, to finally read not guilty.
11:07You're not violating the law by doing this.
11:10You are using the full power given to you by the Constitution and by the laws of the state of Wisconsin.
11:18You know why you have that power?
11:20Because you're not just 12 people of any sort.
11:24You are a jury.
11:25You've been sworn as a jury.
11:27You've heard the testimony and the evidence as a jury.
11:30And as a jury, you're an independent body of citizens from this community.
11:35And you speak with the voice of the community.
11:37You're independent of the judge.
11:39You're independent of the Milwaukee County District Attorney's Office.
11:43And nobody's guilty or not guilty until you say so.
11:50Leroy Reed's fate is now in the hands of the jury.
11:54It is 2 o'clock in the afternoon as the deliberations begin.
11:58There are three elements of the law that must be satisfied if Reed is to be found guilty.
12:04That he was a felon, that he had a gun, and that he knew he had a gun.
12:09If I make a suggestion, rather than...
12:13I know some juries, like Mr. Arvin mentioned, like to take a vote right off the bat.
12:19And I think if we do that, we'll probably end up discussing it anyhow.
12:22So let's just go around the table, discuss the case and your views.
12:27And after everybody's said their piece, we can take a vote on what we think, if that's agreeable to everybody.
12:42Right now, I haven't made up my mind how I'm going to vote.
12:48Okay.
12:49I feel that the defendant is guilty on all three accusations, technically.
12:58But I guess I feel that we should also take into consideration the fact that he does have a reading disability, as well as maybe some other disabilities.
13:09I'm not trying to play on your sympathies or anything, but it is something that I have to consider.
13:15And right now, I haven't determined whether I should deem the defendant guilty or innocent.
13:24I feel that the plaintiff, the city, has found him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the three points that we are to discuss.
13:37The sympathetic point of view would be what his intent was, or what he did not intend to do.
13:44And that's not for us to reason over.
13:47Ours are the three main points which we have to find beyond a reasonable doubt, and I feel that we did.
13:52I really don't know which way to fall on this.
13:57It makes me extremely uneasy, because I think it is a good law, and I think it's an important law.
14:03And there's no question but that this man is a felon, and that there's no question but that he purchased a firearm.
14:12And I'm not sure.
14:17This is something that I want to listen to other people, and I want to talk about and figure out as we go along.
14:24I don't think any of us as citizens have to sit around, regardless of who it is, and say the law is absolutely right because somebody made it for every individual.
14:35I think it's a tough position to be in to say, I am a judge of the law, but I think that's what the jury system is for.
14:46It gives the people a chance in some instances to make some type of statement toward a specific law as applied to a specific case.
14:58And, you know, I think there are cases where it's not clear, and I think in this case there's a lot of questions yet to be answered that we need to talk about.
15:07I would be really hard-pressed to say that he was absolutely guilty in light of all the information.
15:16I know all the evidence that has been turned in.
15:19His education level and his ability to even know the law, they might have even told him that he, if someone would have said anyone who is a convicted felon cannot own a firearm,
15:32he still might not have even understood that and still went ahead and purchased a firearm, not even understanding it.
15:38So I would have to lean more towards him not being guilty for those reasons.
15:44I think that the evidence that the state presented to me was, they were really showing me that there's a lot of reasons for doubt here,
15:56that they probably had doubts themselves, because if this was a convicted felon, and they knew he was a convicted felon,
16:03I don't think, if they are living to the letter of the law, that he had any right to ask this man to go home and bring in that weapon.
16:15And on those two judgments alone, I would not convict him.
16:23Technically, the man is guilty, guilty as sin.
16:27But I want to acquit Leroy because I don't think he was fully aware of the rules of parole.
16:36And secondarily, I don't think evicting him of this charge, this violation of law, would do the general public any good.
16:46But I feel that I'm shaky on this ground, and this is, I've been on, this is my fourth jury I've been on.
16:53And I'm willing to go with the majority in this instance because I feel I'm on shaky legal ground.
16:59That's all.
17:00I agree that Mr. Reid is guilty based on the law.
17:08I believe that the law is good.
17:11I believe that the idea that there can be an exception made because of the particular defendant is what we have to deal with here.
17:23I personally would vote him an acquittal at this point.
17:34Anybody that has about a second grade level reading, you wouldn't take a seven-year-old and ask them all these questions and expect them to understand all of them.
17:44Of course, the length of time he's lived, he knows, he's lived out in the world and he knows more than an ordinary seven-year-old would in some areas.
17:55And it's also difficult to know just what he was thinking.
18:01The shame is that he's had to go along so long and not found some way where he could learn a little more.
18:10Maybe his capabilities wouldn't be like everybody else's, but the training hasn't been there.
18:18Something has been lacking, and we can't help that at this moment.
18:24But I'm not ready to give a real decision either.
18:36We have a very philosophical argument on our hands in terms of are we obligated as a jury to follow the letter of the law and find him guilty,
18:47or are we obligated as a jury to use our special level of conscience, as a defense lawyer said, otherwise it could be decided by a computer.
18:59And, you know, as I was thinking about this, I think it comes down to questions like what is a jury and what is a jury for and what is our purpose here?
19:08Because, you know, as other people have said, and, you know, I feel too that even given his mental abilities as being a handicap to him, you know, according to the law, as it's written, he meets the criteria.
19:23Do we rise above that somehow? Is there a place for us to then say, well, even though he meets the law, you know, we cannot in good conscience find him guilty?
19:35Our instructions were to decide whether, beyond a reasonable doubt, is he guilty of this crime.
19:45I think those three elements have been met that, yes, he is guilty of this crime.
19:50All the reasoning that I've heard around the table for each person's decision as to how they're leaning has been speculation,
20:01which we are all instructed not to use speculation.
20:04We have to use the testimony.
20:06And we can't use what we think his mental ability is or what we think he understood or what he didn't understand
20:13or what we think he knows and what he doesn't know.
20:16We can't use that.
20:17We have to use what was brought out, the statements that were made in the courtroom and were allowed.
20:22I think the scope of a jury is to decide guilt and innocence, not to be the presiding judge.
20:29And so I think I have to follow the letter of the law.
20:37After the first round of discussion, it is clear that the jury is struggling with one of the most difficult dilemmas in our legal system,
20:44how to reconcile the jury's obligation to follow the letter of the law with its power to exercise its own sense of right and wrong.
20:52Earlier during the trial with the jury excused, the public defender asked Judge Ralph Adam Fine to instruct the jurors that they had the power to follow their conscience.
21:04The only issue in this case is going to be whether the jury has the power to nullify the law.
21:11And I think a jury is going to wonder if they have that power.
21:14They don't hear it from the court.
21:16If they perhaps hear one counsel say, well, yes, you do have that power.
21:19They hear one counsel say, well, no, you don't have that power.
21:22And I think it's wrong to keep the jury in the dark about the power that they have under the law.
21:26I think we need to know the law in this state recognizes already that the jury may acquit for any reason or no reason whatsoever.
21:42However, to tell them they have that power would be, in my view, an invitation to anarchy
21:50because it would permit juries to make that kind of decision in every case that was presented to them
22:00and would, in effect, in my view, nullify not only the law of the particular case in which such an instruction was given, but nullify all laws.
22:12Unaware of their power to disregard the law, some of the jurors argue that they are obligated to follow the judge's instructions.
22:19I just don't, I think there's entirely too much sympathy for the man, which is what is very hard to rule out.
22:27But we're not here to be sympathetic to him for what may or may not have happened.
22:32It's the three points of the law.
22:34Mr. Reid, to me, is not a violent person, and I'm sure he did not bite his gun with the intent of doing anything violent with it.
22:41He was swayed by a magazine article.
22:43That same person who has a slight, I don't want to call it a mental disorder, but a slight problem that he has could read another article,
22:51and if he has a gun in his house, that could trigger him off into who knows what.
22:54That's why the law is there, why felons cannot own guns.
22:57From what I've heard, I don't think we're giving this man a lot of sympathy.
23:01I do not think what we are expressing is sympathy at all.
23:04And one other comment, I am not a computer, and I will not accept everything that I'm told for just because I'm told that it is true.
23:13I can't do that as a thinking, breathing human being.
23:16And so other things come into play here for me.
23:20I'll tell you, just to tell me that he's been convicted on these three counts, that's obvious.
23:26We're not arguing that.
23:27We all know that.
23:29Why?
23:30There's more to it than just that.
23:32There has to be.
23:33There has to be more of a purpose for us than just to say, yes, he is.
23:37Bring in the computer.
23:39What if Mr. Reid would have bought a gun and killed some innocent bystander somewhere along the line, and he'd be on this trial for murder?
23:47Then one would be so lenient to say that...
23:50You said, let's not get into speculation.
23:53Oh, yeah, right.
23:54I did, I did.
23:56But you're using speculation to influence your decision.
23:59Okay, I want to speak on that.
24:00I don't think we should.
24:01I think we should stick to the facts.
24:02That's why I brought that up, because I don't think that way.
24:06I think by the facts, and that's the way I think it should be.
24:09I want to try to think by the facts, too.
24:11I mean, I'd like to be a good juror like everyone else.
24:15The law, as I recall, says you have to know that you have a gun.
24:23Now, you and I listen to that sentence, and we go right over that word, no.
24:29Stop.
24:30Do you remember when the...
24:31This is one of those things that made me wince.
24:33It's when the prosecutor...
24:35When you brought the gun, you knew you had been convicted of a felony, right?
24:40No.
24:41I don't know if my question is confusing to you.
24:44Are you aware that we have all already agreed that you did know that?
24:49When I first brought the gun, I didn't know anything about the law.
24:55Okay.
24:56So what you're answering is that you're telling me you were ignorant of the law.
25:00Right.
25:01Okay.
25:02But you knew that you had been convicted of a crime.
25:04No.
25:05You did not know that?
25:06No.
25:07I only know that when I got arrested.
25:09Okay.
25:10You know Mr. Knox?
25:11Right.
25:12Why do you have to go see him?
25:15He's my parole officer.
25:18And the reason you have a parole officer is because you were convicted of a crime, right?
25:24Right.
25:25And you knew Mr. Knox in December of last year, right?
25:30Right.
25:31So you knew December of last year you were convicted of a crime.
25:34Right.
25:35So what's the problem today?
25:38Are you really nervous?
25:39No.
25:40Okay.
25:41Because when you talked to Mr. Butts, you told him, yeah, I was convicted of a crime.
25:45Isn't that what you told him?
25:46No, well, yes, I was convicted of a crime.
25:51That's why I would go to the parole officer each month to see Mr. Knox.
25:57Okay.
25:58So, just to be clear, today you might be a little nervous, but you knew that you were convicted
26:03of a crime.
26:04In fact, you were able to tell Mr. Butts that, right?
26:06Yes, I know what you're talking about.
26:07Yes, I understand what you're talking about now.
26:09He was like this little lost kid, you know, and you wanted to tell him when the bus stops
26:13down the street or something like that.
26:15And that has something to do with his syntax.
26:18His language suggests to me someone who's going through life, looking at reality through
26:24a black screen, and there's this tiny little pinhole in it.
26:28And all he can see through that tiny little pinhole is like a frozen frame, a snapshot.
26:33And he looks at one thing.
26:35And then he looks at another thing.
26:37And then he looks at another thing.
26:39And this is what his syntax is telling me.
26:40Now, he has to know he has a gun.
26:44And I'm having trouble with the word gun, but I'm really having trouble with that word
26:49to know.
26:50But if he was capable and had enough knowledge to find a sporting goods store, to buy a weapon,
26:57to take it home, admitted he had it at home, and through the questions that were asked of
27:02him by the various police officers, sheriff, et cetera, volunteered that information, that he had it at home,
27:11that he did indeed have a gun, and that he had it at home, I believe he knew he had it.
27:14Go ahead.
27:17I'd like to expand upon yours, too, about knowing that he had the gun.
27:21He may have known that, but I'd like to take that to the first point, that he was a known felon.
27:26It was known by maybe everybody that dealt with him.
27:30Except him.
27:31Except him.
27:32And before the poor point he was charged, if you could go back in time, which, again,
27:37is maybe speculation here or whatever, so take it for what it's worth, and you could ask him,
27:42Mr. Reed, are you a felon? What would his answer be? And he would probably come back and say,
27:47what is a felon? I don't even know if you're talking about a bird or a point in law or what.
27:53I wonder if we could find room in the law, for those of us that feel that we need to follow the letter of the law,
28:01that perhaps he didn't, in the full sense of the word, know he was a felon,
28:05and didn't, in the full sense of the word, know that he possessed a firearm.
28:10Because he did show a lot of confusion on that witness stand, and as someone had said,
28:17at one time he had said he was not a felon, and at another time he said that he was a felon,
28:23he becomes confused easily.
28:25I think we're getting too much into psychology of him, and none of us here are trained for that.
28:31We're getting too much into the psychology aspect of this, of what, what, oh, okay.
28:37Oh, then you're the one that should be leading all of this.
28:40Because who are we then to judge that he was thinking this, and he was thinking that,
28:44he didn't know this, and he didn't know that.
28:45Well, believe me, even among psychologists this is going to be a very debatable issue.
28:50You know, I think we're talking about what level did he know it, and, you know, we need to decide what that is.
28:57The hang-up seems to be in the word, did he know. He knew he had to register it, which he did.
29:03He knew he had to have a permit for it. So on one hand you're saying, well, he knew this and he knew that,
29:09but he didn't know he had the gun. I mean, I think you're kind of splitting up the nose on it.
29:13You're willing to say, he knows this, but he doesn't know that.
29:17I don't think we should decide his intent or his, you know, what he understood
29:26and what he couldn't understand and everything.
29:28I think that's, although some of you are experts in your respective fields,
29:34and I can appreciate that, but I don't, I think that's beyond our scope.
29:40But I think we have more capabilities than to say, one, two, three.
29:44These are met on a very simple level, cut and dried, guilty.
29:47I don't think that we as jurors, that is necessarily our role.
29:53We are here to do more than that.
29:55I'm trying to decide in my own mind, has justice been done here?
29:59I don't care what the law says. Has justice been done?
30:03And in my mind, I'm still trying to decide that.
30:06And that's my basic point. That's what we're here to do.
30:09It's not to just say the law says this, the judge says that,
30:12but I don't think that's what he means.
30:14And you can say I'm speculating, but I think there's a purpose for us
30:17beyond just saying that he met the criteria or not.
30:22Why don't we tear off a little piece of paper,
30:25write down a decision one way or another, think about it for a few minutes,
30:28and write down whether you think he's guilty or not guilty.
30:32So you can open them and, you know, fold them in half, whatever.
30:35You can open them and I'll keep the score here,
30:37and then we'll know where we stand and we'll argue it from there.
30:41One says guilty.
30:50Not guilty.
30:52Oh.
30:54Guilty.
30:59Not guilty.
31:02The jury's first ballot comes one hour, four minutes into the deliberations.
31:07The count, three votes guilty, nine not guilty.
31:11Not guilty.
31:12But one quickly reconsiders.
31:14Like I said, I feel I'm on shaky ground here.
31:17And I'm willing to go with the majority because I'm not strong on my stance.
31:25So this is the one time I need help.
31:29Okay, there's a couple of things I want to say.
31:32I look at the defendant and I think, is he a threat to society?
31:38And if what we decide here, if we decide if he's guilty, is that just?
31:44And if he is dangerous, the society, why would the detective tell him,
31:50allow him to bring the gun in, transport it on a public bus, you know,
31:55and ask him and request for him to bring it down to his office?
32:01If he felt that he was a dangerous felon.
32:04I must admit that puzzled me too.
32:06I don't think that's a question if he's a danger to anyone.
32:09I'm having a lot of trouble with that larger frame too.
32:12I'm starting to ask some of these bigger questions about where is justice?
32:17Who is being served?
32:18Even why was this case brought?
32:20Okay, I'm having a lot of trouble with that.
32:22I agree with you.
32:23But in a sense, let's not divorce the two.
32:26I mean, I can see this man who is, in some part of his mind,
32:32he's thinking, I want to be useful.
32:33I want to be productive.
32:34I want to have a social role.
32:35I want to be a contributing person.
32:37I want to do the right thing.
32:38Dammit, I want to be somebody.
32:40And all of a sudden, detective.
32:42And that becomes something, if I am a detective, I can be somebody.
32:46Okay, so what does he do?
32:47He sets out, you know, what are the conditions or qualifications
32:51or requirements for becoming a detective?
32:53Lo and behold, one of them is having a gun.
32:55So in this particular case, gun means qualification for becoming detective.
32:59And the whole thing is encircled by magazine article.
33:02So gun is something that's being imposed by a piece of fiction or an article.
33:11And, you know.
33:12I can understand a little bit now what you're saying.
33:15Was gun a picture on that page or was gun something that you physically used to fire around?
33:21But the book didn't tell him go to Spears on 7102 West Capitol Drive and buy one.
33:26He knew right where to go.
33:27He knew right where he was going for.
33:28He had to look at the paper.
33:30And for all we know, he had to see a picture on the paper, too.
33:33That's what I'm saying.
33:34He knew what to do.
33:35Well, now, wait a minute.
33:36Wait a minute.
33:37He knew how to recognize a detective.
33:38And then at this point, there might be just a picture association between a picture in a newspaper or a phone book or whatever it was that he looked up Spears.
33:45On the basis of the testimony, I have to disagree.
33:47I mean, maybe, correct me.
33:48But my recollection is two things.
33:51That the global detective course, I'd like to find a deep pit to throw that into.
34:01I know.
34:02It gets pathetic after it's comic.
34:04Okay.
34:05I think the global detective course, it gave its warnings.
34:09But I think one of the things they said was, you've got to get your, you know, you've got to get your requirements for being a detective.
34:16And I think the global detective course said one of the requirements is a gun.
34:19Leroy, why'd you get the gun?
34:21The gun is a part of the course.
34:23Where in the course does it say that you need to have a gun?
34:29It's the application.
34:30It's the app.
34:31It's a section there which shows where guns is, where you purchase guns.
34:38Was the gun that you bought the only gun that you looked at?
34:41Yes.
34:42You didn't look at any other.
34:44Oh, well, I looked at other guns, too.
34:46What other kinds of guns?
34:48It was an old antique gun.
34:51Did you like that one?
34:52Yes, it was pretty sharp.
34:54Why did you like it?
34:56It was pretty nice.
34:59Did you buy it?
35:01No.
35:02Why not?
35:03I had no cause to.
35:05He goes to the antique gun.
35:07Why?
35:08Because it looks cool.
35:09This thing looks neat.
35:10Hey, it's, you know, it's like a.
35:11Sharp.
35:12Sorry?
35:13Sharp.
35:14He said it was sharp.
35:15I mean, imagine flashing this to the girls or the guys or something like that.
35:18I mean, so.
35:20That's not Leroy, no.
35:22All right.
35:23That's not Leroy.
35:24Did you find out something about me about that comment?
35:29In any case, but it corroborates the notion that he's purchasing a visual image, not what
35:36you and I are going to do with gun.
35:39He knew enough to go from his global course to go to the newspaper to go to the store.
35:47It's not like I went to global and they gave it to me.
35:51He knew enough to make the steps along the way.
35:53He knew to get one.
35:54He knew how to look one up and find it.
35:56He knew where to go and get it.
35:57I say something right here.
35:59I don't think he knew he was breaking the law because he wouldn't have bought the gun
36:03in the store.
36:04He would have bought it off the street somewhere.
36:06Okay.
36:07That's all I wanted to have.
36:08Y'all can go ahead with whatever you were saying.
36:10I don't know how long we're going to stay on that first point.
36:13The thing that I'd like to address is, did he know he was a felon with the possession
36:17of a gun?
36:18In my mind, I have a huge reasonable doubt that he knew he was a felon because he was very
36:26cooperative.
36:27He was the one.
36:29He wasn't trying to hide number one thing.
36:33He wanted to do everything that was right.
36:36And he was willing.
36:37He was the one that was willing to bring his gun.
36:40He offered everything.
36:42Isn't even important in deciding our case, because it's agreed upon by all parties that
36:49he was a felon.
36:51They're not arguing whether he knew it or not.
36:53They're arguing whether he was.
36:55And that's the element.
36:56The element isn't that he realized he was a felon or not.
37:00The third element on there states that he was or wasn't.
37:03And it was agreed that he was.
37:06So our basic argument has to be on the first two points.
37:09I think it's the collective, we the people, that has to be considered along with the letter
37:17of the law.
37:18After two hours of discussion, the position of each juror is clear.
37:22The majority tries to persuade the two holdouts that justice requires a vote to acquit.
37:28The foreman calls for a second ballot.
37:31Not guilty.
37:35Not guilty.
37:38One person still feels guilty.
37:42I feel that we're going much too far into his psychological state that most of us are not qualified
37:51to do.
37:52We're picking apart words out of this, words out of that.
37:55I could come down and put something down on his table and say, this is orange.
37:59And I feel some of the people are going to tell me, no, it isn't.
38:01It's a mixture of red and yellow.
38:04Who's right?
38:06I think we're going way too deep into his psychological thoughts.
38:12We're guessing at what he was thinking.
38:14We're guessing at what he knew.
38:15We're guessing at what he didn't know.
38:17No, I changed my mind.
38:18I have something to say.
38:20I came into this room saying the same thing.
38:22Yes, the three points were met on face value.
38:25And he's guilty.
38:27And now those first two points, you could define them.
38:34You know, it says that he had to know that he possessed a gun.
38:41He might have knew he possessed a piece of his course.
38:45And when you brought that up, and it made me think, and maybe he just was simply following
38:51instructions, had no relationship like you or I or anybody else does in this room between
38:58a gun and bang bang.
39:01You know, I'm sure at his age he's watched plenty of TV, being whatever.
39:08You see detective movies and shows on TV, and every detective has a gun.
39:13His detective book, he's now going to be a detective.
39:16I'm going to be a stand-up citizen and be a detective.
39:19He's going to be a detective.
39:20He's going to be a detective.
39:21He's going to be a detective.
39:22He says something about a gun.
39:23He's going to do everything he can to do it right.
39:24And did he really know what he was doing or the consequences?
39:29Did he know that, you know, a gun was purchased or did he purchase an item of his course?
39:38So that's my reason for changing my mind.
39:41It appears to me that your decision that this man is guilty is very important and complete
39:46in your mind.
39:47And share more of that with us, if you will.
39:51I can't, I don't have the education and the training to put myself into your class as
39:57far as being able to understand the human mind and how it works and what people think.
40:01And I don't think that's why we're here.
40:05It sounds very cold and simplistic to look at three reasons and say, yes, they meant
40:10this, this, and this.
40:12The whole case seems like it's, it doesn't belong here, first off.
40:17But...
40:18Do you think there is ever a case where there could be an exception made?
40:25Do you think there is ever a case where exceptions can be made?
40:30Sure.
40:31This man, in all good will, brought this gun in, gave it to the police, you know.
40:38They asked him to.
40:39He did it.
40:40I don't think he understood that he was a felon.
40:43I don't think he understood the significance of a gun.
40:45He didn't understand so many things.
40:47But when somebody told him, this is wrong, please bring this in.
40:50He did it right away.
40:52I don't think that there are grounds to convict this man on for his good intentions.
40:57I mean, there's got to be exceptions somewhere.
41:00And I, deep inside, believe there's an exception in this case.
41:04You're saying that he didn't maybe realize that he owned a gun.
41:07Well, you're saying he knew enough that he was going to take the course.
41:11He knew enough he wanted a badge.
41:12He knew enough this and he knew enough that.
41:14He knew to go to the sheriff's department.
41:16He knew enough to get the permit.
41:18He knew enough to register.
41:19But also, he didn't know enough that he was owning a gun.
41:22You're taking things that favor you to say he knew this, but when it's something that
41:28you disagree with, oh, he didn't know that.
41:31And he really couldn't logic this and he couldn't logic that.
41:33And I don't think it's up to us to determine what his mind is working on.
41:38I think this is a good law.
41:40And I don't want to say or do anything that suggests that I don't take that law seriously.
41:46So, I mean, I want to do my civic duty.
41:49I've got a lot of other things to do.
41:50I come down to the courthouse and the DA gives me this.
41:56And in spite of this awesome room and these very serious people and in spite of their
42:04lovely dog and pony show with the legal rigmarole, I'm sort of sitting to myself thinking,
42:09this is Mickey Mouse.
42:11I mean, I really don't feel that this is a justified expenditure of my time and attention
42:23as a juror.
42:25And we were asking the question, well, what about, you know, the larger issues?
42:30What about justice?
42:31And justice is one of the things we're expected to be meeting out in this case.
42:36What about sending a message?
42:38And I'm thinking of a message I'd like to send the DA's office.
42:42Believe me, I would love to send them a message.
42:45And the message would be, dammit to hell, I'm afraid to walk to my car in the parking lot.
42:51I've got, you know, women students who are being mugged, who are being beaten, who are being raped.
42:58The same thing is happening to my male students.
43:00They're being mugged.
43:01And you give me, you give me Leroy.
43:06And I feel like saying, guys, guys, you're doing a hell of a job.
43:13I mean, he walks into the police department.
43:18He gives them, you know, the incriminating evidence.
43:21He gives them a confession.
43:23He gives them, you know, the gun.
43:25He gives them everything.
43:26I mean, I'm sitting there.
43:28I'm a young DA.
43:30And I'm a little hungry.
43:33I'm a little hungry.
43:35And I look at this guy, Leroy, and I think, you know, maybe I got me an easy kill here.
43:41What I'm saying is this trial shouldn't even have been brought about, which...
43:45Yeah.
43:46Right.
43:47I believe that.
43:48I think that's...
43:49I think probably 12 of us agree on that.
43:51I don't want to send a message over to the DA's office, sort of patting him on top of the head and say,
43:56Bring me some jaywalkers next time.
43:58We'll really get them.
44:01Really, Leroy Reed has had enough punishment, if you will, for what he did that was so wrong.
44:09And, you know, how long do we beat this thing?
44:17Between his arrest and between his days in court now, an awful lot must have happened to it.
44:23It's like, okay, so now he knows not to do that again.
44:27You know, that's God.
44:28Can he comprehend that?
44:30He can't.
44:31You come in with a not guilty, and Leroy's gonna be out on the street, which he should be,
44:35because he's not a harm to anyone.
44:37But what help is he going to get?
44:39What message did he give Leroy?
44:41He's probably not even gonna know what day it is tomorrow.
44:44The message we gave Leroy is that justice can be had.
44:47Can you find doubt in your mind that these three criteria apply?
44:52I don't find doubt with that.
44:55I think with all the things that Leroy has done, he knew...
45:01You say that he was following instructions.
45:04That's making him look...
45:07I don't know how...
45:08Yeah, I don't want to call him stupid, but it makes him look like a dog.
45:11Leroy, do this, Leroy, do that.
45:13Leroy, you don't know anything.
45:14And I don't think Leroy was like that.
45:16Leroy knew enough to take a bus here.
45:18He could do this, he could do that.
45:19Many things on his own that he did not have to be told what to do.
45:22I know that in terms of the literal years, this man's what, 42?
45:27Yes.
45:28But you know, you step inside that head, and you're inside the head of a six or seven year old.
45:32Now, I don't know how you feel about watching a cognitive seven year old get caught up in this legal mechanism and just watch with this exquisitely agonizing thoroughness as it sort of puts him through the entire mill.
45:51That's why I said earlier, I mean, as this thing went on, I found myself wincing.
45:56It was like watching a grown man beat a child, and I'm supposed to be sitting there applauding for the DA.
46:01And something in my guts is saying, this is grotesque.
46:06I mean, the guy comes in, he supplies everything, and then we catch him in this mechanism.
46:11It's like something out of Kafka.
46:14I think that there's a lot of consensus that this whole thing was grotesque and unreasonable.
46:19I think you agree to that too, but you have, your difficulty, if I read you right, is in applying this law and, you know, in following the law on a very concrete level.
46:34I look at it very basic.
46:37And I would, I will not hold out to hold up 11 people that are very strong in their feelings.
46:44I would, I will change and vote along with you to make it a unanimous vote, but I will never feel right about it.
46:51I feel it was pushed by the jury on psychological and other feelings that I would not agree with.
47:03But I will go along with the unanimous verdict.
47:07Is there something we could talk about?
47:09Well, we can vote right now.
47:10No?
47:11We can vote right now.
47:12No?
47:13No, we're not ready yet.
47:14No?
47:15No, we're not ready yet.
47:16No?
47:17Yeah, I don't do that.
47:18I want to make you feel better.
47:19Okay, fine.
47:20I'll work.
47:21Wait a minute, wait a minute.
47:22This is important.
47:24This is important.
47:25I probably look at it too basic, one, two, three.
47:31But I just, when you get to the reasonable doubt, I don't, I don't feel that there is.
47:39I think because of this trial, if there's any way that Leroy gets any kind of help, I'll feel good about it.
47:49I found myself feeling real down last night.
47:54I was aware of the weight that's on each one of us as a juror.
47:59And I thought, hey, this guy's guilty.
48:03Is there some way out of him being a judge guilty by us?
48:14Could I live with by writing guilty for this particular person?
48:21Boy, I mashed around with that for a while.
48:25And I said, if there's any justice really, it's in drawing attention to this man's personal situation and limitations.
48:35Getting rid of the firearm is okay, too.
48:41But judging him not guilty, then I can believe in jury.
48:48I mean, that's where I find myself.
48:52Let's say we take a vote.
48:54Let's say we take a vote.
48:57Do you feel better, worse?
49:00You know, I think we have to really consider how you feel.
49:04No, no, no.
49:05But he, you know, he said that he would vote guilty even though he would feel bad.
49:11And wouldn't, you know, and I don't feel good about that.
49:14I want, I have a hard time thinking that this man should go through his life feeling I'm guilty.
49:22Do you think that he was, that he was able to understand that he was a, keep these two, that he was able to keep these two thoughts and link them together at the same time when he bought the firearm that he was a convicted felon and that he was not supposed to own a firearm?
49:39Do you think he was able, do you think he had the mental capacity to understand the ramifications of that?
49:45I think he knows that he was a felon.
49:49And I think he knew that he bought the firearm.
49:52The possibility of the two together would be the weakest point for me.
49:57Okay.
49:58I think everyone is having a bit of a problem with that.
50:01Yeah.
50:02Let's say we take a vote on it.
50:04Rather than beat a dead horse here.
50:09Not guilty.
50:10After two hours and 28 minutes, the jurors have found their own path to a verdict.
50:15Their decision combines reasonable doubt with their feeling that the law should not be enforced in this case.
50:22I still think it's the strength of the jury system because if you do have that, if you just have legal professionals, no matter what level they're at deciding this case, I think it would have come up with a different verdict.
50:33And I wouldn't have felt right about that.
50:36The power of a jury to go its own way is inherent in our legal system.
50:41Some fear that this power can be abused and work against justice.
50:46This may happen if jurors ignore evidence and allow racial or class prejudice to determine their verdicts.
50:52But so-called runaway juries have played an important role in our history.
50:58They defied the fugitive slave laws and later helped overturn prohibition.
51:05Our game isn't done when we leave this.
51:08Today, in some political sanctuary and marijuana cases, defense attorneys are asking jurors to ignore the letter of the law and follow their conscience.
51:17To do so is not easy, as this jury discovered.
51:21We're going to go outside that door and...
51:28Well, but you can bet on two things.
51:32I mean, in the eyes of the defense council, we are going to be geniuses, saints, you know, roll out the red carpet.
51:39In the eyes of the DA, we're going to be a bunch of dupes, lackeys, I mean, sentimental, bleeding heart, whatever.
51:48So, you're not delivered from the ambiguity.
51:52I mean, he really was right.
51:54You're standing there.
51:55You've got a lot of things going on.
51:57You're not really sure.
51:59You've got to make a decision.
52:01And it's hard.
52:02And you've got to live with it.
52:05All right.
52:07Every year, some five million Americans serve as jurors and play a vital role in our system of government.
52:14At a time when there seems to be doubt about the individual's ability to influence the law, the verdicts of ordinary citizens are vital indicators of community values.
52:25Sir, has the jury reached a verdict?
52:27Yes, it has.
52:28Could you hand the verdict for him to the ballot?
52:30In the case of Leroy Reed, an independent-minded jury helped a man who faced long odds find justice.
52:38Case number L0855, state of Wisconsin, plaintiff versus Leroy Reed defendant.
52:44We, the jury, find the defendant, Leroy Reed, not guilty.
52:48Signed by the foreman, James R. Pepper.
52:54All right.
52:58You, ladies and gentlemen, as representatives of the community, bringing with you the conscience of the community into this courthouse has spoken.
53:08And in a very real sense, folks, you are the last bastion, the last vestige of citizen control over a most important governmental function.
53:17And in this country, unlike countries all over the world that we read about in the paper or see on television, you cannot be picked up off of the street and locked away without having a court of law and a jury of citizens pass on a charge.
53:35That is the keystone of our freedoms.
53:38And in my view, is the reason we are a free people.
53:42And I'd like to thank you so, so very much.
53:46Court's adjourned.
53:49The power of a jury to rise above the law is an established principle in our legal system.
54:10And juries are always challenging and changing the course of the law.
54:15But there are also some changes happening to our jury system.
54:19In civil cases, large jury awards and liability suits have prompted those affected, like doctors, manufacturers, and most importantly, insurance companies,
54:31to lobby for laws to limit the kinds of cases juries can hear and the amount of money they can award for damages.
54:38In criminal cases, like Leroy Reed's, however, the right to a jury trial is secure, although some states have decided to use six-person juries and have dropped the requirement for a unanimous verdict.
54:53As for Leroy Reed, although the odds seemed against him, because of a jury, he found justice.
55:00Please join us again for Frontline.
55:04I'm Judy Woodruff.
55:05Good night.
55:06If you're hurt in an operating room, should you take your case to the courtroom?
55:11Who saw this autopsy?
55:12You're a neurologist.
55:13The only protection that the patients have is the malpractice lawyer.
55:18Patients are aware of the malpractice crisis, and patients will ask you straight off, are you doing this because you're concerned about my suing you?
55:25If something goes wrong, I'm screwed.
55:29Should you sue the doctor?
55:31Next time on Frontline.
55:59I'm Judy Woodruff.
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