- 5 months ago
Profiles of the couples, lawyers, judges, and children caught in divorce proceedings.
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00:00Major funding for Frontline is provided by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.
00:06Additional funding is provided by this station and other public television stations nationwide.
00:12When someone gets mad and they have it for a long time, they have to have a divorce.
00:21Tonight, the fights nobody wins.
00:25Half of all American marriages end in divorce.
00:30Two million more children each year watch their families break up.
00:36And they can become the battleground when their parents go to war.
00:40I've made just as much commitment. I want the rights to go with it.
00:44I want recognition not so much what I'm looking for, but I just want to be able to be there. They're mine.
00:52Tonight on Frontline, Divorce Wars.
01:00From the network of public television stations, a presentation of KCTS Seattle, WNET New York, WPBT Miami, WTVS Detroit, and WGBH Boston.
01:15This is Frontline, with Judy Woodruff.
01:22Good evening.
01:24This is a story that started out to be about children and ended up about adults.
01:30It's about divorce.
01:32In this country, people divorce more readily than almost anywhere else.
01:36As a result, we have more than 60 million children with divorced parents.
01:42And those parents are, in a way, unique.
01:45They're the first generation of adults for whom getting divorced is a fact of life,
01:50but who do so with very little guidance.
01:53With parents who look on and can't offer their experiences,
01:58and with children who watch them struggle with one of life's most painful ordeals.
02:03The program is called Divorce Wars.
02:07It's produced by Sherry Jones and co-produced by Christine Intagliata.
02:19Wilmington, Delaware.
02:21Laurie Paoli is 26 years old.
02:23Her daughter, Tanya, is two and a half.
02:26Matthew is five.
02:27This year, her marriage and their family fell apart.
02:36Mom, will you push me?
02:43Delaware is like the rest of the country.
02:46In the last year here, 5,600 couples met, courted, and married.
02:51More than half that number, 3,000, came to family court to get a divorce.
02:57Susan, lay me.
03:00Every Thursday morning, every week of the year, the fourth floor of family court is filled.
03:05There are more women than men.
03:08Mostly, they are young.
03:09Their average age is 32.
03:11Most of them have children.
03:13We'll put your right hand on the Bible and repeat your full name.
03:16Marie T. Harkins.
03:17Each way the testimony you're about to present to the court in this matter
03:20will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
03:22I hope you got it.
03:23Yes, I did.
03:24Notice you there, please.
03:24You had two children with him, is that correct?
03:27Yes, I did.
03:28And they're in your custody, is that true?
03:30Mm-hmm.
03:30Are you currently pregnant?
03:32No.
03:33It appears the jurisdictional requirements of the court have been satisfied.
03:36It used to be you could end your marriage only if you or your partner
03:39were judged guilty of a marital fault.
03:42That has changed.
03:4449 states now grant what is called a no-fault divorce.
03:47Your marriage is irretrievably broken.
03:49Yes.
03:49Would you explain to the court briefly why you reached that conclusion?
03:55We are no longer in love with each other.
03:58There is no communication between us.
04:02Different things, money situations, about her kids, you know, wanting me to adopt her kids
04:09and stuff.
04:10And I said, let's wait and get the marriage settled first.
04:13And it's just a bunch of different stuff.
04:15The change in the law lowered the decibel level and the bitterness of the adversarial divorce.
04:34It also made it easier.
04:35Every 27 seconds, someone in this country gets a divorce.
04:40It will therefore be the recommendation of this court that a final decree of divorce be
04:44entered upon the expiration of 15 days from today's date.
04:46We had a problem with communication and we just started eating separate lives.
04:50So, this one went one way and one went the other.
04:53Okay, is there any probability of reconciliation?
04:55No.
04:55Okay.
04:56You all right, no further questions.
04:57In appearing the jurisdictional requirements of the court have been satisfied.
05:00Half our marriages now end this way.
05:02Few of us have stopped to measure what that really means.
05:11Michael and Lori Paoli married six months after they met.
05:15She was 20.
05:16He was 22.
05:18She got pregnant with Matthew on their honeymoon.
05:21Tanya was born when Matthew was two.
05:23Five and a half years after they married, Lori filed for divorce.
05:27Michael's reaction was immediate.
05:29Michael had taken the kids and I didn't know where they were.
05:34And he took them, I believe, up to his parents' house in New York or something.
05:39And I didn't know where they were and I had no way of getting them back.
05:42So, I filed emergency custody, which meant that he had to come back.
05:46And I felt that I had no recourse at the time other than to enter into the court system.
05:51I kind of wish I hadn't now, but I think it also helped Michael know that I was serious.
05:59You know, I wasn't playing around.
06:00I wasn't going to take it anymore.
06:02In an emergency hearing, a judge ruled that they share custody of their children until a permanent agreement could be reached.
06:10Lori then filed for sole custody.
06:11And so did Michael, setting the stage for yet another battle in a marriage that had been troubled almost from the start.
06:19I'm not saying it's Michael's fault or my fault, but he does not find me easy to live with.
06:26And I don't find him easy to live with.
06:28And it just was a big shock to me that somebody would have a hard time living with me.
06:34I thought, you know, it would be a lot of fun.
06:37Instead, it was work, work, work.
06:40You know, much of it was a drag, you know.
06:44And plus, we had kids right away, which didn't really help.
06:47I mean, the kids were great and everything, but it was kind of hard to have kids right away and not really get a chance to know each other.
06:53Matthew, it's time to get your pajamas on and get ready for bed.
07:00Can you bring them down here?
07:02Lori had left once before, three years before she finally filed for divorce.
07:08I got a bottle for you. Come on.
07:11We went through this three years ago, and I was the one that filed for an emergency hearing back then.
07:19Marital harm was deserted by her. The kids were with me.
07:21The court shocked the hell out of me, to put it bluntly.
07:25I went down and asked, what do I need to do to protect my kids?
07:28I mean, there's some very extreme circumstances here.
07:34The kids are with me.
07:35I want to make sure that if I leave them with somebody and go to work, I'm not going to come back and they're going to disappear on me.
07:41And I said, well, you've got to file for an emergency hearing.
07:43Well, I filed for an emergency hearing, and what that was was a one-hour hearing where somebody can get up and say whatever they want, nothing substantiated.
07:51And I had a judge make a decision that, hey, you are out of the house.
07:56You pay $50 a week.
07:58You see the kids basically at their whim.
08:00I was supposed to be guaranteed to see them on Saturday and Sunday and I think part of Monday.
08:05Well, gee, you know, I get calls, can't see them this weekend.
08:08You brought them back sick last week and whatever games they want.
08:11And I was like, hey, I've got no rights here.
08:13The children have watched their parents separate and reconcile and separate again.
08:22In the six months since the last separation, Tanya and Matthew have stayed in the two-bedroom condominium while their parents move in and out every other week.
08:32Neither can afford a place of their own.
08:35Can I use mom's toothbrush, dad?
08:38Yeah, you can use mom's.
08:40I like this one.
08:42I had visions of, you know, us going on a family picnic and him bringing his guitar and me sitting and holding the baby lovingly and smiling at him and him smiling at us.
08:56And, you know, I didn't have visions of the kids trying to kill each other and the family picnics, food getting all dumped on the ground and the guitar getting stepped on.
09:07And, you know, I just thought it would be so much better than it was, you know.
09:17One morning, he spilled panties on the floor.
09:23He sure did all over the floor.
09:25And his sister called him a bad bunny.
09:27Bad bunny.
09:28And PJ said he was sorry.
09:31He did not mean to spill the syrup.
09:33Yeah, he didn't.
09:34I don't serve TV dinners and I don't serve spaghetti, peanut butter and jelly, which is more than I think I can say for what was occurring for him when I was married, but I wasn't responsible for that stuff.
09:47Their sheets are changed regularly, which didn't occur then.
09:49I feel, you know, I think I'm a good parent.
09:53And that's what I want to be looked at as when I walk in there, not as the father.
09:58I don't want her looked at as the mother.
10:00I want it looked at who's the best parent.
10:06At this moment, the Paolis want a judge to make Solomon's decision, what to do with their children.
10:13Their struggle is just beginning.
10:16Family court, can you hold, please?
10:20Okay, Costa finds me.
10:22The number of divorces grew by 4% in Delaware last year.
10:27But the number of people coming here to fight over their kids grew by 25%.
10:32Can I help you?
10:34No-fault divorce may reduce some of the acrimony.
10:37No law can reduce the pain.
10:39And when there are children involved, the conflict does not always end at the moment of divorce.
10:44Modification of the joint custody?
10:46Or do you want to file a contempt of court?
10:47Do you want to force her to take the children?
10:51Or would you rather just have full custody yourself?
10:53I'd rather just have full custody.
10:54And then you want to file modification.
10:56Adam, wait for the door.
10:58Every year in this country, there are 2 million more children of divorce.
11:02There is no way to write laws that guarantee what's best for every one of them.
11:06So each state struggles in different ways to protect the children.
11:10We don't go round up people off the street.
11:13People can divorce, that is, end their marriage, which they are legally required to come to court to do,
11:19without asking us to do anything with regard to custody, child support, alimony, property division.
11:25It's only when they can't reach an agreement that they come in here and they say,
11:31okay, you know, we give up, we can't do it, or he will only do it on, you know, on his terms and I'll only do it on my terms.
11:39It's only then that the court ever steps in.
11:41It is money that brings the greatest number of parents to family court.
11:5010,000 petitions for child support were filed here in the last year alone, more than ever before.
11:55Have you ever filed a petition for child support before?
11:58Nationwide, fewer than half the fathers who owe money for their children pay what they're supposed to.
12:03He's not giving you any money towards house expenses?
12:05No, he says he's not going to give me anything.
12:07Well, right now I'm unemployed. He's been giving me, like, $30 a week, which,
12:13and that buys a case of diapers and a couple gallons of milk, and that's about it.
12:17According to one major study, women suffer a decline of 70% in their standard of living in the first year after a divorce.
12:25Men see a 40% increase.
12:28And nine times out of ten, it's the mother who has custody of the children.
12:33I'll also need pay stubs.
12:35I didn't get my mother's cheddar.
12:36Delaware has taken a pioneering step in dealing with child support.
12:40It uses a formula to figure how much each parent ought to pay.
12:45It's based on the notion that the children come first,
12:47that each parent gets only a minimum for themselves until the needs of their kids are assured.
12:54You're telling me that she can get $147?
12:58Mm-hmm.
12:59Why?
13:00Because that's what the figure shows.
13:02I can't afford that.
13:06According to the formula, this father owes $147 every two weeks for his three children.
13:13What I'm saying is that I'm struggling now.
13:14You know, when I left, she didn't have nothing to pay for.
13:17I bought the furniture.
13:18Everything in that house was paid for.
13:19She goes out and buys 85 cars.
13:21That's the reason why she's stuck now.
13:23You know, why should I have to go through all this stuff for me?
13:25Because she feels as though Eddie needs braces on his teeth.
13:27It's not what I feel.
13:29I can't afford it either.
13:31They want $94 a month.
13:32I don't have it.
13:33I can't even make it.
13:33Yeah, what I'm saying is that $147 a month is too much.
13:35I got a year left on my loan.
13:38Once I pay that off, then I go ahead and get the boy's braces myself.
13:41I can work out something with the doctor.
13:43Are you willing, Rebecca, to come down off the calculation at all?
13:46No.
13:47So you want to stick with the $147 twice a month?
13:49Well, I can't pay that.
13:50You know, I pay day care.
13:51I pay everything.
13:52I just lose my job.
13:53There's no way in hell I can pay $147 every two weeks.
13:56No sense to continue in the argument now, okay?
13:58There's no way.
13:58You're both stuck on your figure.
14:00What I'm going to do, I'm going to set up a date for a court hearing.
14:03And then explain if you have any other questions about the court hearing.
14:05I don't want to keep coming up here.
14:06You think I enjoy coming up here?
14:08You must.
14:08You're the one that initiates all the stuff.
14:11Well, I'll initiate it.
14:11So we have an older alternative.
14:12Well, I'll tell you what, I don't give a shit.
14:13I'll lose my job.
14:14Well, that's up to you.
14:15Well, fine, you won't get nothing.
14:17Believe me, I don't care.
14:19Believe me, that's just...
14:20That's stupid to cut your nose off to spite your face.
14:22Well, I don't give a shit.
14:23I really don't.
14:23Y'all women, that's all y'all women think.
14:25You think you can just drain somebody.
14:26When it happens and you don't have the right to see your kids, then?
14:29I don't give a shit.
14:30Well, we'll see.
14:31Yeah, we will.
14:31Well, they'll hate you.
14:32They won't hate me.
14:33You let them know that.
14:36Kind of this tug and pull between parents where what they do is they use children to debate.
14:42You didn't let me see the kid early enough and therefore I'm not going to pay your support
14:47or I'm going to pay it late.
14:48She says, well, you didn't visit with the kids, so I'm going to bring you in for more money.
14:54Parents use children's issue to batter each other, often long after the divorce,
15:00when they don't have economic issues to tie themselves together in other ways.
15:04We're trying to say to people, kids' issues are separate.
15:09When you file a divorce, that's fine.
15:10You can go do whatever you want, but we're going to break out custody and we're going to break out support
15:15and we're going to make you deal and focus on how this is going to affect your children first.
15:20Is it a reference to a wage attachment?
15:23Do you like that arrangement of meeting at McDonald's as versus coming to the home?
15:29I don't mind.
15:30It doesn't matter to you?
15:32It doesn't matter.
15:33Okay.
15:34So it's all right if he picks you up at McDonald's
15:38and then return you back to McDonald's for your mother to take you home?
15:42Right.
15:43Okay.
15:43Okay.
15:43Well, he gets them at night.
15:49For every holiday.
15:52We went through July 4th and that wasn't considered a holiday.
15:56Remember, I got her 9 to 2.
15:57Okay, my basic worry is Christmas and Easter when I have her there in the morning.
16:03Can I feel all holidays?
16:04Okay.
16:05So what's been the longest that you spent with her, Dad?
16:08Um, the longest one is when we spent the night with him for a week.
16:14For a week?
16:14How did you like that?
16:16It was fun.
16:17It was fun.
16:18It was good.
16:19Seven months and six days after they separate, Laurie and Michael Paoli are granted a divorce.
16:26They still cannot agree on who will have legal custody of their children and take responsibility for the decisions involving them.
16:33Oh, really?
16:33They are pressing ahead with each of their petitions for sole custody.
16:37It's not mandatory.
16:38It's basically a guideline.
16:40Okay.
16:41A starting point.
16:42And today, in their first session with a court mediator on Laurie's petition against Michael for child support,
16:48they're going to get a lesson in the economics of splitting up.
16:51Okay, the very top figures.
16:53Okay, and yours, Laurie, as I said, we use the U to D because your incomes fluctuate from pay to pay.
16:58When you have a salary pay, we just go with that.
17:01Okay, then you deduct a certain amount for self-support.
17:04Okay, 450 is the maximum figure allowable.
17:08And that would normally be...
17:10That's ridiculous.
17:10He earns a little more than $17,000 a year as a mental health administrator.
17:18She works two different jobs to make $13,500.
17:21My understanding is, the end result is, it's written that I would pay support.
17:26And so, therefore, to me, it's assuming that she would have full custody.
17:30No, no, no, not necessarily.
17:32Okay.
17:33Full custody, full custody.
17:34Let me ask you, suppose I had full custody.
17:37If you had full custody, then I assume you would be the one filing for support.
17:40I did file for support.
17:43You each asked for it in your petitions?
17:45Yes, we did.
17:46Mm-hmm.
17:47You filed for support?
17:48You've got to be careful.
17:48Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.
17:52Um, suppose somebody, there was a support agreement, somebody decided to quit work and go to school.
17:57You have to worry about today for the kids.
17:59The kids can't wait for four years for you to graduate and have a better job.
18:02You know, you have to worry about today.
18:04It kind of blows school out, doesn't it?
18:06Well, there's ways to fit it in.
18:09I don't know.
18:09I mean, it's like almost impossible, you know?
18:12It's not easy.
18:14Any time there's a split, you know, there's always sacrifices that have to be made.
18:20Any other questions?
18:21Okay.
18:25Okay.
18:26Thank you very much.
18:27My biggest problem was it was all written as if she was custodial parent.
18:33And maybe it wasn't written that way, but the way it was presented to me, I had problems with that.
18:38I mean, what about the possibility that I wasn't going to be the full custodial parent?
18:43I thought the emphasis was mainly that I would be paying support.
18:46Well, this kind of arrangement makes no allowance for school, and it kind of sticks me in this job forever.
18:54Well, I take exception with that, Lori, is support isn't for you to go to school.
18:58It's to help meet the expenses of the children.
19:01But that would help meet the expenses of the children.
19:04In other words, you've got your degree, okay?
19:06You're able to be up on the mobile.
19:08I'm not.
19:09I don't have my degree.
19:10My degree just miraculously appeared.
19:12I worked full-time on an assembly line, you know, for five years, and it paved my way for a school.
19:17Yeah, but if you stayed home and took care of the kids and took care of the house, you would have had to pay somebody to do that, or you would have had to do it yourself or whatever.
19:24I did pay the bills and all the expenses related to raising the children at that time.
19:28Yeah, but you didn't, you know, if you had kids, okay, and somebody would have had to take care of them, okay, you would have had to pay somebody to do that.
19:37But that doesn't take into consideration what I did during that time.
19:43You see what I'm saying?
19:44In other words, I stayed home and took care of the kids while you got your degree, and now, when it's time for me to go to school...
19:50I don't think that was really realistic in the case.
19:52You started and dropped school two times.
19:54Because I was, I had kids to take care of.
19:57Well, that wasn't, I think, the major...
19:59Nobody ever told me that I was going to have to take care of myself, because really the way it is nowadays, you have to think of yourself first, take care of yourself first, and then maybe marriage will fall into place.
20:16Most of the divorces today are initiated by women.
20:19It is a change brought on by changing roles, and by the promise that in today's workplace, a woman can make it on her own, if she chooses.
20:28In Lori's case, that sometimes means a 60-hour week at two jobs, mostly on the swing shift.
20:35Right now, it's just a matter of, like, bills.
20:38I mean, I'm so in debt, you know.
20:40I owe my lawyer all this money, and, you know, as far as, well, we don't know what we're going to do yet.
20:49You know, as far as the house and everything.
20:51But if I get my own place, hey, that's going to be, like, it's just that astronomical, the cost and everything.
20:59I mean, I probably have to work as much as I am just to be able to afford a place and everything.
21:05And I'm just kind of, like, trying to get ahead a little bit before, you know, before I would have to do that, you know.
21:13Just get some of these bills caught up and, you know, pay off some of these debts and everything.
21:19Six years ago, there were 700 lawyers in this country who specialized in divorce.
21:27Today, there are almost 12,000.
21:31Michael shopped for his, he says, like he shopped for a car.
21:35And he chose Joel Tenenbaum, one of the busiest divorce lawyers in Delaware.
21:39He's a man with a reputation for winning for his clients and a growing reputation for winning custody battles for fathers.
21:47Michael makes few decisions without him.
21:49How did you make out yesterday?
21:51Um, touch of God.
21:53I didn't sign anything or agree to anything.
21:55I had my main concern was that with the way they presented their support statement, it mainly reflected if the mother has custody.
22:04Basically, where I've left it is that, no, we're not agreeing to what they have at this point in time.
22:08I want to get with you and go over the different alternatives that Leroy and myself are working out and what your recommendations as to them would be.
22:18Okay, fine.
22:19I also need to get with you over the custody agreement issue.
22:23My feeling is, frankly, that this case has, you know, been in existence far too long.
22:33And rather than keep it at the mediation level, unless you feel that there's a chance that there's going to be some sort of agreement,
22:39I'd rather have you tell the mediator to send it upstairs for a hearing.
22:44What I want to do is meet with you on that issue.
22:46Fine, fine.
22:47Five miles from Attorney Tenenbaum's office is another professional whose business grows as the divorce rate grows.
22:56I'll be my mommy, maybe my daddy.
22:59All right.
23:00Now, Heather didn't think of anything to say to me.
23:04It's not my fault.
23:08Mostly, Paula Malone counsels children who are troubled by what's taken place when their parents divorced.
23:13Hey, you.
23:15Well, I think she should talk to me more.
23:17It is an adversarial process, and that's the really unfortunate part of it.
23:22It should be, just as marriage should be, a cooperative process.
23:26It should be a partnership.
23:28But what happens, and it's not the fault of the attorneys,
23:32what happens is that they simply are following the legal constraints under which they operate,
23:38which says that your client hires you, their client hires somebody else, and you both go at each other.
23:45And you try and resolve this dispute.
23:49And sometimes it isn't a dispute.
23:51Sometimes it's an agreement.
23:53And it becomes a dispute because of the input of the attorneys who want to win what they can win for their clients.
24:00I try very hard when I am talking to attorneys to help them see that, yes, nothing is ever the way everybody wants it.
24:13But please, don't make any big losers, because if they make a big loser, if they create a big loser, the process will not end.
24:23There will be anger.
24:24There will be hatred.
24:25There will be hostility.
24:26There will be all of those feelings that come out of losing.
24:29And they will prevent any possible true resolution of this situation.
24:36We are not prepared to go forward and to defend any rule to show cause why she should be held in contempt.
24:43But we're talking about as close to $1,700 worth of arrearages, Your Honor.
24:48And, you know, the court has already ordered that she give us evidence of...
24:53It is one of 1,800 court hearings over child support that will happen here this year.
24:58I don't mean to give Mrs. Bryan a hard time.
25:00And I will happily agree not to press the issue of contempt if I can get some representation from Mr. Hudson...
25:09The father's attorney has filed a petition asking for an increase in the child support the mother pays.
25:15The father has custody of their two sons and wants more money to help cover $80 a week in daycare expenses.
25:21Mr. Bryan, you are president of the cohabitating with someone. Is that correct?
25:27Yes.
25:28And where does she work?
25:30She works at Edge Mart.
25:32How many hours per day will she be working?
25:34I really don't know.
25:36Will she be working every day?
25:37I don't know that.
25:38Your Honor, he's answering the question.
25:40I'm sorry, it's a different question.
25:43Will she be working on Sunday?
25:48I don't know.
25:49Her schedule of work is not important to you?
25:52I didn't say that. She just started the job Monday. I have no way of knowing all about her job in two days.
25:57If she was working from 6 at 9 to 11 at night, she would be available during the day to take care of your kids. Is that correct?
26:04No.
26:05That's not correct?
26:06No.
26:06Why wouldn't she be available during the day if she's living with you?
26:09Because she's not my wife. It's not her responsibility to take care of my kids. It's my responsibility to see to it that my kids are brought up in a proper atmosphere and in a place where they can learn and grow with other children.
26:22And she says, is the woman with whom you're living married to someone else?
26:24I really don't know. As far as I know, I don't know.
26:30I remind you of your own, Mr. Wynum.
26:33I don't know whether her being either married or someone else, but she's living with him would be relevant if it is.
26:39Your Honor, there is no obligation on a person who is not a parent of a child.
26:43It is in hearings like these that you ask the question, is the best interest of a client necessarily the best interest of a child?
26:52No decision is made today.
26:55It could be a month before the winner is announced.
26:59The parents don't have to really like each other because if they really did, they probably wouldn't be the worst thing.
27:26But they need to cooperate with each other.
27:28And if they can put their own, what we've referred to as hidden agendas, put their own upsets, their own angers, their own hostility, their own loss, their own need to blame behind them,
27:39then they may be able to come to a working arrangement which will allow the children to see that even though their parents can't function together as a couple, they can function together as mother and father.
27:54The Paoli's come to Paula Malone's colleague, Jeff Elias Frankel, for private counseling.
28:00They have a choice, to fight it out in court or to find some way to reach an agreement.
28:05Five times they've been scheduled for a final custody hearing.
28:09Five times it's been postponed.
28:12And now, four weeks after their divorce, they have second thoughts.
28:15They came to me divorced and wanting to work on becoming possibly remarried, about working on their relationship.
28:27And the course of that, we uncovered, that they are simultaneously pursuing contested custody.
28:35Which is, they're entering the court system to sort of fight one another about who would have legal custody with regard to the kids.
28:43At the same time, they were coming to me and saying, okay, look, we want to work on putting our relationship together.
28:48That kind of confusion, sort of trying to go north and south at the same time, is not, and that's an extreme example of it, but we all got that.
28:57And, um, so essentially what we've been trying to do is to make the situation a little bit less confusing.
29:05We're getting, there's a lot of things that could occur there.
29:07I mean, my fear would be, all right, fine, I helped her through school.
29:10Then, suppose she turns around and says she wants to break this whole agreement.
29:14You know, yeah, schools cost a lot of money.
29:17And if we hang on to the house, it means I won't be able to get financial aid, for one thing.
29:22So I'd pretty much have to channel, if I'm working part-time, I'm going to have to channel it into paying for school, you know, and it's going to affect how much I can pay.
29:30It puts in my head right away, well, hey, I could work out this agreement, then she could decide to quit work and go to school and it puts everything out of work.
29:39Yeah, let me interrupt.
29:40Notice how the level of trust that you sort of slowly start to establish all of a sudden can be, what if I'm conned?
29:48It's fragile.
29:49It's real fragile.
29:51It's real fragile.
29:52They don't know that they want to achieve a positive outcome for this.
29:57They're just confused as to really what that is.
29:59Is the positive outcome for me the same as it is for the other person?
30:04Is the same for the children?
30:06They don't know that, and they're struggling with that.
30:08And that's a painful process, per se, in addition to the pain of the loss that they've experienced.
30:13So, yeah, theirs is a very painful circumstance.
30:19Getting the legal divorce is not the end of it.
30:25There is the emotional divorce that has to happen, too.
30:28It's a vulnerable time for the parents as well as the kids.
30:32Their parents are often bound up with one another in cycles of anger and hurt and pain.
30:45What's constantly on the mind of each is the other.
30:48So even though the subject of their legal battle may be their children, that's not always what the fight is about.
31:03Sometimes the only way to stop loving is to hate somebody.
31:08And if they truly hate somebody, then they really feel that that person is not the right person for their children.
31:14So in the heat of that process of divorcing, when that process is escalated by the whole legal structure,
31:29those kinds of feelings come to the fore and are enacted in a public arena.
31:35That is, the custody battles, the support issues, those kinds of things.
31:39You know, if you cloak issues, money issues, in terms of what the children need, it's a more acceptable debate.
31:46It's not, I'm greedy.
31:48It's not, I'm being unreasonable.
31:49It's, I'm doing this for this innocent person who's coming in here.
31:53And so I think people re-channel things in that direction, which is very unfortunate, particularly if kids know what's going on.
32:03You know, the people who pay their child support by handing the check to the child and saying,
32:08you know, here's, I can't take you out for an ice cream because your mom's getting all of my money.
32:14That's real hard for children to understand and to appreciate and not to get involved in the whole battle between parents.
32:21Parents should never feel that their children do not know what's going on.
32:26They may not comprehend.
32:28They may not have the ideas of what's going on, but they can feel it.
32:31What I'm saying is the children are always observing the parents.
32:34They're always knowing what's happening with the parents.
32:38And as the situation heats up, and very often it begins to heat up as we get into the property settlement,
32:46who gets what, who is going to own the house, do we sell the house,
32:50do we divide the house in half, then as the parents start to fight over this issue,
32:58and the lawyers who are involved have to fight for each client.
33:04So the lawyers are going for the jugular, and the parents go for the jugular,
33:08and the children have the ringside seats.
33:10They don't even have to pay for it.
33:11They can be right there.
33:13They can observe, and they see, and then they feel.
33:16And the child wants to be there for the parent.
33:22The child wants to provide what the parent needs at the moment,
33:25knowing that the parent is really suffering.
33:28So that the child then becomes really okay.
33:32And what I see often is that it's after the dust has settled,
33:37after the divorce has been, in a sense, formally completed,
33:43that I begin to see symptomatic behavior in the child,
33:46or that the family begins to see, or the school begins to see symptomatic behavior.
33:50The child has held on, has been okay, as it were, for the parent,
33:55but falls apart, so to speak, later on.
34:00And I think if, at the time, the parent could go beyond their own pain,
34:04and they could say, in some way,
34:06I know this is just as much hell for you as it is for me,
34:10that the child wouldn't be really okay,
34:12that the child would communicate their own pain,
34:15that the child wouldn't be blasé about it.
34:17No child is blasé about the loss of their family, as they know it.
34:22None.
34:22It does not make any difference how many children they've spoken to in their classrooms,
34:26whose parents have been divorced.
34:28Each child feels the trauma very deeply.
34:31Generally, children require, divorce or not divorce, feeling secure.
34:36That the way the world is today is pretty much the way the world is going to be tomorrow.
34:42And that the people who are caring for me today
34:45are the people who will be caring for me tomorrow.
34:48This is extremely difficult to accomplish in a divorce or a separation.
34:54Mommy, I don't understand all about this.
34:58You tell me.
35:00I understand about some, but you tell me.
35:04Well, what don't you understand?
35:06You tell me.
35:08Well, I don't understand.
35:09Well, I understand that when someone gets mad
35:14and they have it for their own time,
35:18they have to have a divorce.
35:20You tell me.
35:21You still mad?
35:22Matthew will talk about the divorce.
35:24He'll say, why is this happening?
35:26I don't like this.
35:28I was concerned about him seeing too many conflicts between us,
35:32too many fights.
35:33But he's five, and kids tend to be, you know, semi-flexible at that age.
35:39They kind of accept, well, this is going to be the way it is for a while.
35:44You did it.
35:46What I've told them, a struggle between two parents
35:49that becomes more and more intense
35:52becomes more and more difficult for the kids to handle.
35:55And that's long and short of it.
35:58In court in which there appears to be a winner and a loser,
36:02there is only an illusion of a winner and a loser.
36:07That's it.
36:08The kids have not won.
36:09The winner has not won.
36:11And the loser has not won.
36:14In Delaware, the family court agrees
36:16that battles between parents are best kept out of the courtroom.
36:20So when a couple files a petition on issues involving their children,
36:24they must come to mediation.
36:26One last chance to compromise.
36:29It is one of only four states in the country where mediation is mandatory.
36:35Mediation is, well, you guys take control in essence.
36:39This is all it is.
36:40You're coming in and you're saying,
36:41we have a divorce, we have children,
36:44we need to resolve issues around our children.
36:47And you're telling me that you're going to take control,
36:50that you want to resolve those issues,
36:51you don't want a judge to resolve it for you.
36:54You're going to come in here...
36:55If they can agree on custody, visitation, and support, it is signed.
36:59It becomes a court order without the courtroom fight.
37:02What are you talking about?
37:03I said, nits, lice.
37:05Down the street we go, you're an unfit mother,
37:08the kids have head lice, you don't keep them clean.
37:10I mean, you know, that's embarrassing.
37:12I live in that neighborhood, and I simply said that
37:14so that he would not have to go through what I went through.
37:17But the sad part about it is she's not telling...
37:20She didn't tell me the way she told you.
37:22You know what I'm saying?
37:23When I came to the door, it was that, you know,
37:27I found nits in his hair, right?
37:30As if it's your fault.
37:30And if I see him on his child, I'm calling you.
37:34So I get mad and my mouth starts to get a little nasty,
37:36and I start to get downgraded.
37:39I'm it, I've got a dirty mouth when it comes time.
37:42If you know where the buttons are,
37:43you can either decide to turn off all buttons
37:45and communicate as two people,
37:47or you can decide to keep playing the button push-up thing.
37:49Yeah.
37:50And like we said before, and I'm going to say it again,
37:52if everything worked out well in your marriage
37:54or even worked out well in your divorce,
37:55you wouldn't be here.
37:57But the fact is you're having rough spots,
37:59and that's why you have to come here.
38:00Well, so everything's all over except for this little bit.
38:02You know, another thing you want me to do
38:04is you want me to take a...
38:04When a judge comes and tells you what to do,
38:06you have not necessarily made a commitment to that.
38:09You've put yourself at his mercy,
38:10and that's what happens.
38:12You get this decision handed down.
38:14A lot of times in mediation,
38:16both parties come out happy.
38:18Not 100% content, but comfortable.
38:22They can live with what they've decided.
38:24It is filling maybe the top five in their needs.
38:28When you come out of court, there ain't no guarantees.
38:30When you come out of court, you've got a winner and a loser.
38:32When you come out of mediation,
38:34you can have two winners.
38:35I mean, we're already a part-time parent.
38:37They've been separated for a year.
38:39Each has petitioned for sole custody
38:41of their four-year-old son, Justin.
38:42Our relationship has deteriorated to such a point
38:45that I really don't want to even be around her.
38:47So it is unlikely that I would visit with him over at her place.
38:51So I just think the best arrangement is,
38:55at least for the time being...
38:56Justin moves back and forth between their homes every two days.
39:01The mother wants him three weeks out of every four.
39:03They both want to fight it out in court.
39:05Neither would be here if they weren't required to.
39:08I don't know if I could see it if I lived halfway across the country,
39:10but I live right here in town.
39:11There's no reason why I shouldn't have access to my child
39:13on a more regular basis.
39:15Okay, and then that goes vice versa for the father.
39:18I don't know what his feelings are.
39:20Okay, but I know that...
39:21For the most part, since Justin's been a child,
39:25I have been what I consider the primary parent.
39:27I've made all his decisions as to where he goes to school.
39:30I provide his clothing.
39:32You know, all of a sudden, because of this divorce now,
39:35he's trying to make it sound like, you know,
39:37he's being neglected as a father.
39:38But I don't think that he's proven up until this point
39:41that he's really had any concern about the child.
39:43I have always taken care of my kid, you know.
39:47And don't put that stuff about, you know,
39:48you always buy his clothes.
39:50And that's not true, Terry.
39:52You might buy some clothes for him, but I buy also.
39:55Since when?
39:55You didn't start buying them until he started coming to your house.
39:58But we're really concentrating on,
40:00what about from here on?
40:02You know, you have some years ahead of you.
40:06Okay, now, Jason is fourth.
40:08Justin is fourth, right?
40:10So you have 14 more years.
40:12You have 14 more years.
40:13You have more years ahead of you than behind you.
40:16Exactly, I agree.
40:17You know, and there's a possibility.
40:20I don't know whether there will be,
40:21but there is a possibility for change
40:24if the both of you make the changes.
40:26I don't see how.
40:28I'm sorry, you know.
40:29I think we're both very too stubborn.
40:32People that, you know,
40:33he feels one way about a situation,
40:35and I feel one way, and I, you know.
40:37I don't, I, obviously,
40:39we can't even get together to discuss this matter.
40:42I think she would find,
40:43I think she would find that I'm a very reasonable person
40:46when it comes to my, my child.
40:48I just won't let her steamroller me,
40:49you know, in regards to him.
40:51Nor are you.
40:52I'm not going to let you intimidate me
40:54into not fighting for the custody of my child either.
40:56Well, you know, you have every right to fight,
40:58you know.
40:59But, but remember this,
41:00I'll go to the wall too.
41:01Good.
41:02Then we'll have to do that.
41:04And is this going to the wall
41:06will be until the child gets 18?
41:09No.
41:10I mean, what is it that you feel
41:11that a judge is going to be able to do
41:13that the both of you cannot do?
41:16I want the judge to decide
41:17who he's going to stay with.
41:20And do you feel that
41:22it's causing any more hardship on Justin,
41:26or is something that Justin has been able to address?
41:28I really don't think so.
41:30I think, I think he's a happy child.
41:32I think he's a very happy child.
41:33I think he loves both parents.
41:38I think he wants to be with both parents.
41:40And this is the best possible way, I think.
41:43Unless, unless she has another...
41:47I just think it'd be kind of rough on him.
41:51I think, you know.
41:53I don't know.
41:54I really don't know.
41:54I guess something maybe could be tried for,
41:57for a small, for a trial period, say.
42:01Let me ask the both of you something.
42:02Do you want to see how the trial arrangement
42:05would be, like, for two months?
42:07And see how it works out,
42:09and see how Justin adjusts?
42:10I think it would be a good idea.
42:15Can I think about it?
42:17Okay.
42:18They decide to come back for another session.
42:20Let me think about it.
42:22Seventy percent of those who go through mediation
42:24eventually reach an agreement.
42:27You all will be able to negotiate many of them.
42:30It has been nine months.
42:32It doesn't make sense to bind you.
42:32And in therapy, the Paoli's have begun to back away
42:35from fighting over custody.
42:37They've begun to consider the possibility
42:39that they might work something out together.
42:42I was starting to think, well,
42:44maybe I'm just being, you know, pressured into it
42:48because I'm a woman.
42:49And I was worried what my parents would think.
42:53Well, you don't really love your kids
42:54unless you want to have sole custody.
42:56But I was thinking, well, actually,
42:58ideally this is what I wanted to happen
43:00when we were married
43:01was him to take more of a responsibility
43:03with the kids
43:04and him to do things with them
43:06without me initiating everything
43:08and giving me a break once in a while.
43:11And so I got to thinking about it more and more.
43:17And I got to thinking that maybe
43:19the way we were all looking at it
43:21was a little bit wrong.
43:23I really want to do what's best.
43:26A big part of me would like to see us work it out.
43:29I mean, I get the strong impression from her now
43:31that she'd like to see a reconciliation.
43:34But I kind of try to weigh that
43:36and try to weigh what I think
43:38is in the best interest of the kids,
43:40because the reasons that she gives me right now
43:42I think are more for herself.
43:44It's kind of like, well, you know,
43:46I like the idea of the agreement we worked out
43:49because that means that I can keep both my jobs,
43:52that I can go ahead and buy a new car,
43:54that, you know,
43:55and those aren't the reasons to me
43:58for working out an agreement.
44:01I'm being good, Mom.
44:03Yes, you are.
44:04You're being very good.
44:05Are you sad?
44:06No, I'm not sad.
44:08I'm happy.
44:11I'm happy.
44:12Are you happy?
44:15I want you to be a good boy this week, okay?
44:18Maybe.
44:19No, definitely be a good boy.
44:21She has a second job that pays more now,
44:24but it requires her to live in another town
44:26part of each week.
44:27You're not sad I'm going, are you?
44:29So, in yet another change for the kids,
44:33she and Michael now move in and out
44:35every three and a half days.
44:38Well, I don't know if I am or not.
44:42Well, I am.
44:44No, I'm happy.
44:46You're happy that I'm going to work?
44:48Yeah.
44:49Now can I go outside?
44:50I'm still really trying to keep an open mind.
44:55Last week was really, yeah, I'll settle out of court,
44:59work out a joint custody arrangement.
45:02Part of this was saying, okay, that'll, first of all,
45:04take the impending court situation away from us.
45:07It will allow us time to really work out something,
45:11see what works.
45:11If it doesn't work, well, then we can always resolve it in court.
45:14Um, then I kind of got a loop dropped into it
45:20where I was told by my attorney
45:23that he thinks I have a very good shot at full custody
45:26and would not, uh, recommend I go to mediation.
45:32I thought that, well, joint custody was satisfying,
45:35but talking about sole custody,
45:36I think a lot of it's the pressure
45:38that's put on him by his parents.
45:40They had, they have a son that was married before,
45:43and he got divorced,
45:46and their daughter-in-law took the girl,
45:49and they didn't see her for 11 years.
45:52Even the families, you know, exert a lot of pressure.
45:55Um, there's distinct lies.
45:57Lori's catching pressure from hers
45:58because she's friendly with him.
45:59I'm catching a lot of heat from mine.
46:00Like, hey, what are you doing?
46:02Their attitude is go for the juggler.
46:04I mean, go for full custody.
46:06You know, you need that piece of paper to feel secure.
46:08So they're pushing him, and plus,
46:11I guess as Lori was pushing it,
46:13I don't really know his other reasons.
46:15I think he, I think he wants to prove
46:18that he, he would be a good parent, you know,
46:20and that he, that he can do it.
46:24I feel, you know, I've made just as much commitment,
46:28and, you know, I want, I want the rights to go with it,
46:32and I want the recognition,
46:34not so much as what I'm looking for,
46:35but I just want to be able to be their, their mind.
46:38You want custody of the children,
46:43and you want to stay in the house.
46:44She wants custody of the children,
46:46and from what I understand,
46:46she wants to stay in the house.
46:48The court, in its decision,
46:51will first want to determine
46:53who is awarded custody,
46:55under what terms and under circumstances,
46:57before it determines what, what to do with the house.
47:00Personally, I want the house.
47:02Michael has now paid $4,500 in attorney's fees,
47:06nearly a quarter of his yearly salary.
47:09The thing that actually blows my mind in this situation
47:11is that while the two of you are discussing this,
47:14your wife still had,
47:15and this marvelous trust that's going on,
47:17and this marvelous cooperation that's coming on,
47:20A, you're getting a divorce,
47:21B, you're going, you've gotten a divorce,
47:22B, you're going through a property division hearing,
47:24and C, your wife has filed a petition for custody in this case,
47:27alleging you're something of a cross
47:29between Attila the Hun and Jack the Ripper, right?
47:34You've shared with me a long list of reasons
47:37why your wife is unable and incapable
47:40of meeting the children's needs.
47:43Basically, I've looked at these last six weeks
47:45as a period of me evaluating
47:48how plausible it is
47:51to have a co-parenting situation with Lori.
47:53What I have seen to date
47:56is maybe I'm doing 90% of the co-parenting
48:03to her 10%,
48:04and basically, I feel I'm doing it all.
48:09If I'm going to be doing it all,
48:11then I want it all.
48:17I had no idea that was going to go this way,
48:20and it seems to get more complicated
48:24every time I turn around.
48:27You feel like you're in a maze.
48:31So I just, I had no idea
48:33it was just going to be this crazy.
48:37It's hard, you know.
48:40And being married is really hard,
48:42but being divorced is harder.
48:43So, you know, that's the way I feel about it.
48:48You know.
48:51Climb on up, Matthew.
48:53I kind of really see a lot of my life
48:55still revolving around Matthew and Tanya.
48:57That's where I really grieved a lot.
48:59It's divorce.
49:00It's like, gosh, am I going to be there
49:02when my daughter's going to her first prom
49:06and watch Matthew play his first baseball game?
49:09I mean, that's what really hurt.
49:12You know, it went through that.
49:12Am I going to be there?
49:13Am I going to be available?
49:15Is he going to, you know, know who I am?
49:18And that's, you know, what it was all about to me.
49:21That's what, you know, so much of the fight,
49:23you know, war was if I have to go
49:25for sole custody to get that,
49:27then that's what I'll do.
49:28Good night.
49:30Good night.
49:31Good night, sweetheart.
49:32Good night.
49:33It's now, you know, one, two, three.
49:39You just simply say,
49:41this isn't working, I don't want anymore,
49:43rather than having to try to work things out.
49:46You have two consenting adults
49:47and you end the relationship.
49:49That's it.
49:50They don't ever have to see each other again.
49:51If you have children, you may be able to divorce,
49:54but you can't end your role as parents.
49:57I've had people come to me and say,
50:00if I knew I was giving up 18 years of memories,
50:03I never would have divorced that man.
50:06If I knew what the emotional implication
50:09of this decision really was,
50:12I would not have followed that impulse.
50:14I would have tried to work it out.
50:16That's the unfair aspect of the divorcing process,
50:20which we do not as a society provide.
50:23That should be the hard part.
50:25I think that investigation,
50:28both internally and of the marriage itself.
50:31Some people work harder at the divorce
50:33than they do at the marriage.
50:35I think the thing to keep in mind about the Piolis
50:38is that they've had to take a look at themselves
50:41and a look at their kids.
50:44And some of the decisions which they've made earlier on,
50:47they now have to deal with the consequences of.
50:50The sense in which the two of them
50:52are in fact really going to be interdependent
50:54has become real.
50:57And what you get to learn when you get divorced
50:58is it doesn't get done with.
51:00I mean, part of it gets done with,
51:02but part of it goes on.
51:07My fears for the children
51:08are that the kids are going to get caught into it,
51:11that they're going to be brought into it,
51:13and they're going to have the psychological experience
51:15that they have to choose
51:18and that they can't be right,
51:22that if they love their mom,
51:24they're wrong in their dad's eyes,
51:25and if they love their dad,
51:26they're wrong in their mom's eyes.
51:28And that's not tolerable.
51:31Kids of divorce,
51:32when the divorce has never been really
51:34psychologically accomplished,
51:37have real difficulties
51:38establishing other relationships.
51:39And there's the cycle again.
51:55Ten months and 20 days
51:56after they separated,
51:58Michael and Laurie agree once again
52:00to stay out of court
52:01to figure out together
52:03how sharing custody of Matthew and Tanya
52:05could work.
52:06At this moment,
52:12it is up to them
52:12and to them alone.
52:16Parents show their children
52:17what marriage and a family is.
52:22They show them
52:23what a divorce is, too.
52:25Well, weren't we going to change that
52:27to say less than 72 hours
52:34require notification?
52:36The whole intent of this agreement
52:37is whether or not
52:38can we trust each other?
52:39Can you and I decide?
52:40Then why do you need consent here?
52:42Why do you even put that in there?
52:44Because I think
52:45it's more a question of courtesy.
52:48I'm going to give you the courtesy.
52:50Does the notification cover that?
52:53It does for the shorter trips,
52:55but I think for a lengthier trip,
52:58you know,
52:59I may have concerns
53:00about some things.
53:01And if you can't abide
53:03by certain aspects
53:04of the agreement,
53:05then I've got to question
53:06how valid your word is
53:08or your signature
53:08is going to be
53:09on any aspect of the agreement.
53:10I'm not saying that
53:11I won't abide by it.
53:13I'm just saying
53:13I don't know
53:14why written consent
53:16has to be given.
53:18I don't know.
53:18It's just that I
53:19resent being told
53:20what I can and can't do
53:22with the kids
53:22when it's my time.
53:23Well, see,
53:24the problem I have,
53:25though,
53:25if that's the attitude
53:25you're going to take
53:26about the agreement,
53:27I mean,
53:27I'm not...
53:28How serious are you taking this?
53:29I feel like I'm bending
53:30as far as I can
53:31with a lot of this stuff.
53:33Really put off
53:34by that kind of perception.
53:36I don't think
53:36that's the attitude
53:37I've taken at all.
53:38I think I've...
53:40I'm not making
53:40an impersonal path
53:42on your life.
53:42I'm just raising this issue.
53:44I'm saying it could be...
53:45A reminder,
53:50this report was done
53:51in Delaware,
53:52a state that's
53:53in the forefront
53:54of new approaches
53:55to help people
53:56deal with divorce.
53:58Only three other states
53:59have mandatory mediation.
54:01Some others
54:02are trying to establish it,
54:04but many legislatures
54:05are uncomfortable
54:06about making mediation
54:07a mandatory requirement.
54:10However,
54:10there is one issue
54:11where they all
54:12have to agree.
54:13Child support.
54:15Only one family
54:16in four
54:17receives the full amount
54:18of court-ordered support.
54:20And now,
54:21a new federal law
54:22says that all states
54:24must withhold wages
54:25from delinquent parents
54:26and set aside
54:28their tax refunds.
54:30After all,
54:31it's for the sake
54:31of the children.
54:34Next time on Frontline,
54:36the story
54:36of a third-grade class
54:38which was taught
54:39a dramatic lesson
54:40about the meaning
54:41of discrimination.
54:42It changed their lives.
54:44How are black people
54:45treated?
54:46How are Indians treated?
54:47How are people
54:48who are of a different color
54:49than we are treated?
54:51They don't get anything
54:54in this world.
54:55Why is that?
54:56Because they're
54:57different colors.
54:58You think you know
54:59how it would feel
55:00to be judged
55:00by the color of your skin?
55:02Yeah.
55:02Do you think you do?
55:03No, I don't think
55:05you would know
55:06how that felt
55:06unless you had
55:07been through it,
55:08would you?
55:09How many in here
55:10have blue eyes?
55:12Okay.
55:13How many in here
55:13have brown eyes?
55:16It might be interesting
55:17to judge people today
55:18by the color
55:19of their eyes.
55:21The program is called
55:23A Class Divided.
55:25Next time on Frontline.
55:27I'm Judy Woodruff.
55:28Good night.
55:29Stay tuned for
55:38Amos and Andy
55:39Anatomy of a Controversy.
55:42Did Amos and Andy
55:42stereotype blacks
55:44or was it
55:44a groundbreaking pioneer?
55:46Twenty years after
55:47its last broadcast,
55:48the question is still
55:49a matter of debate
55:50as you'll find out
55:51next.
55:59A Class Divided.
56:29For a transcript
56:45of this program,
56:46please send $4
56:47to Frontline,
56:49Box 322,
56:50Boston, Massachusetts,
56:5202134.
56:55Frontline is produced
56:57for the documentary
56:57consortium by WGBH
56:59Boston, which is
57:01solely responsible
57:01for its content.
57:04Major funding
57:04for Frontline
57:05was provided by
57:06the Corporation
57:07for Public Broadcasting.
57:09Additional funding
57:10was provided by
57:11this station
57:11and other public
57:12television stations
57:13nationwide.
57:16Schools, colleges,
57:17and other organizations
57:18interested in purchasing
57:20or renting
57:20videocassettes
57:21of this program
57:22may call
57:23800-424-7963
57:26or write
57:27PBS Video,
57:29Post Office Box
57:308092,
57:31Washington, D.C.
57:3320024.
57:34.
57:34.
57:34.
57:36.
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57:38.
57:39.
57:40.
57:41.
57:42.
57:43.
57:44.
57:45.
57:46.
57:47.
57:48.
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