- 5 months ago
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00:00And I'm absolutely thrilled that he has joined us this morning. Good morning, Terry.
00:06Good morning, Sardia.
00:07Thank you so much for joining us. This is my co-host, Sean Ward.
00:12Good. Hello, John.
00:13Hello. How are you?
00:15Very well.
00:16Welcome. Welcome to Rise, sir.
00:19Absolutely. And you are, sir. Sir Terence Hardy, wait, which I think being made a sir was a real peak moment for you.
00:30I've read and with good reason. And I'm not always, as everybody knows, I can be very anti-establishment.
00:37But every now and again, I say this person deserved that.
00:40Now, let's give some background to Terry. He's humanitarian. He's an author, hostage negotiator.
00:44And he probably came to your attention when he came to prominence as a hostage himself.
00:50And I think in many people's minds, Terry, you're sort of frozen in time, like on the steps of the plane.
00:58And that's how we remember you. I mean, you were taken hostage for, it was over three years, I think, right?
01:06Well, yes, I was captured in Beirut when I was negotiating for the release of hostages.
01:12And it was five years, almost five, apart from a few weeks, when I was kept in strict solitary confinement for all that time, apart from the last few weeks.
01:25I was chained to the wall, slept on the floor, no natural light, and no one to speak with, no books or papers for about over three years.
01:37So it was fairly austere.
01:40It's extraordinary. And you catalogue that in the first book that you wrote about this experience.
01:48And so for those who don't know, of course, you were the assistant to for the Anglican Communion Affairs to the Archbishop of Canterbury, Robert Runcie.
01:56At the time, you were an envoy for the Church of England.
01:59You had already secured the release of a number of hostages.
02:02So you were definitely experienced in that era, in that area.
02:06But, Terry, what is it like to be chained to a wall and to be deprived of pretty much all your senses?
02:13How do you survive such a thing?
02:16It's not an easy experience, obviously.
02:18But what one has to do is learn to live for the moment, to recognise that you still have life, and that you can live life as fully as possible within the very strict confines of that situation.
02:34I mean, I began...
02:36And what you have to do, really, is to keep your mind alive.
02:39I mean, I began to write in my head.
02:41I mean, the first book I published later on, when I came out of captivity and put it on paper, that was principally written in my head in those years.
02:52Wow.
02:52Taken on trust.
02:54That was the first book, wasn't it?
02:56And that was a book about your experience.
02:57Yes.
02:58That's the one.
02:59Yeah, that's the one.
03:00And that was written in my head.
03:02And then, you know, you have to keep your imagination alive.
03:04I mean, I've never been good at mathematics, but I used to keep my mind going by doing this complicated arithmetic in my head, you know, adding up, subtracting, and so on, just to keep things moving forward.
03:21And then I'd take journeys in my mind.
03:24I'd travel beyond the confines of the cell so that I could use my imagination.
03:31All these things.
03:32So, physical exercise was out of the question, because I was chained by hands and feet for virtually 23 hours and 50 minutes a day.
03:40Oh, that's just awful.
03:43Sean, go on.
03:44My mind is blown, Terry.
03:47Like, yeah.
03:49I mean, to me, that shows the power of the human mind.
03:52Have you always had quite a strong mind?
03:55Well, I think, you know, if someone would say to me before that experience,
04:00where you, you know, you'd never deal with it, I think I would have agreed with them.
04:07But you find when you're in a situation of extremity that you have resources that you didn't know you had.
04:16Right.
04:16And that's true for most people.
04:19Now, the thing is not to give up, to keep hope alive and to maintain hope.
04:25And if you can, I mean, I'll just give a simple little example.
04:29I was in a room, in an upstairs room, locked in this room, with metal shutters in front of the window, so no natural light came in.
04:38And in the morning, when the sun came up, the sun hit the shutters, of course, and there was a small gap.
04:46And a beam of light came into the cell.
04:49And gradually, it illuminated the cell.
04:51And I thought, you know, don't give up.
04:55Light is stronger than darkness.
04:57Keep hope alive.
05:00Wow.
05:00Wish I brightened in the dark.
05:01Little things help you in those situations.
05:04And, of course, I would have been immensely helped if there had been other people around who could give support.
05:10And that didn't come until the last few weeks of captivity, when I was moved in to be with other hostages, because I'd become physically not well.
05:20I was ill at the time.
05:21And then, of course, I was released.
05:24In an interview that I read, I think it was with The Times, you mentioned meeting the man that held you hostage, and that you have no desire for revenge?
05:34No, I went back to see them some years later.
05:39They were surprised to see me.
05:41I bet.
05:43You went to the lion's cage twice, Terry.
05:47But they moved on.
05:48They moved on.
05:49I mean...
05:50But how did you move towards forgiveness?
05:52How did you get to that point of like...
05:54Well, I mean, I think you have to recognize that forgiveness is always possible, that people do stupid things and bad things.
06:05There are one or two people who are thoroughly and totally evil.
06:09I think there's no doubt about that.
06:12But there are many people who get caught in situations for a whole variety of reasons and just need to be given a new opportunity, a new start.
06:20And in this case, the captors who did employ those techniques of taking hostage at the time, they'd moved on.
06:29They'd moved forward.
06:31And I went to see them.
06:33And I said, you know, well, they said to me, they did apologize, actually.
06:38And they said, well, what can we do?
06:40And I said, I've just come back from the Syrian border.
06:43I've seen the Lebanese border.
06:45I've seen refugees coming over, a cold and hungry.
06:48Can you let me have heating oil for them?
06:52And they said, OK, we'll do it.
06:54Well, now that was a very small gesture.
06:56It's not going to make political, great political changes.
06:59But it was the beginning of a period of reconciliation.
07:03What we need today, I mean, the world is so divided.
07:06We need people who will be reconcilers, who will try and, you know, get across the differences that there are between different cultures, different nations.
07:15And rather than being aggressive all the time, be a little more reconciling.
07:21It doesn't mean to say you condone bad, evil deeds, you don't, you know.
07:26You could be a reconciler.
07:28So, OK.
07:29Sorry, Sonia.
07:30No, not at all.
07:31Go for it.
07:32Clearly, you've inspired Sean this morning.
07:35I should just say, Terry, you've got them jumping up and down in the comments.
07:38People are so happy to see you and talking about so much respect for you and your resilience and your amazing strength and what an incredible individual you are.
07:48Sorry, Sean.
07:49Go on.
07:49No, no.
07:50Yeah.
07:51So that personal journey towards forgiveness, do you think that influenced your approach to reconciliation?
07:56And do you think that ties into the support that you have for individuals like Clive Freeman, who is wrongly convicted?
08:05I've always been concerned all my life with people who are on the margins of life or in difficulty, you know, the homeless and prisoner.
08:15And I've had lots of prisoners over the years.
08:17And, you know, some of the most difficult situations that I face regarding prisoners is when prisoners come forward and claim their innocence and say they're innocent of the crime that's been committed.
08:31And you know full well that everybody who says that cannot be innocent.
08:37They've been convicted by a court of law.
08:39And, you know, but there are some, I mean, I think official statistics are that about 6% of people who are in prison and convicted by a court are actually innocent.
08:54And we've seen that case recently where, you know, Andy Malkinson, who was rejected twice by the Criminal Cases Review Commission, was actually innocent.
09:06And although there was evidence there, which was being sat on for 10 years, that he was, in fact, innocent.
09:14And the Criminal Cases Review Commission turned him down on several occasions.
09:19Now, with Clive, Clive Freeman, Clive Freeman wrote to me years ago.
09:24He was convicted of murder and was given a 13-year tariff.
09:31And that means that he would not be eligible for release until he'd served 13 years.
09:38Well, now he is 23 years beyond that date, beyond 13 years, 23 years.
09:45And the reason he's beyond that date and is not allowed to apply for parole is because he refuses to admit his guilt.
09:55He says, I am not guilty.
09:58I cannot, if he admitted his guilt, he would be eligible for the courses, rehabilitation courses, and therefore be eligible for parole or to be considered for parole.
10:10But he refuses to do that.
10:13And so he served 23 years extra.
10:15Now, that in itself should tell the Criminal Cases Review Commission something.
10:20Now, the evidence is brought to them, and the forensic scientists at the time who conducted the forensic investigation into Clive's case claimed he was murdered.
10:34Now, since then, many, many other forensic scientists...
10:39Nine, nine eminor pathologists, yes.
10:41...have said, you know, this is a wrong diagnosis.
10:45This is a wrong conclusion.
10:47But the forensic scientists at the time will refuse to back down.
10:51And the Criminal Cases Review Commission, who, interestingly enough, have rejected 97% of the 29,000 cases that have been put before them.
11:03Wow.
11:0397% have been rejected.
11:05Well, I think these figures do say there's a case here for investigation.
11:14There's a case we review here.
11:17And really why I'm interested in that is because, simply because of fairness and justice.
11:23And we do know, you know, we do know, as I've said, that innocent people can get convicted.
11:30And this is not a, you know, a bleeding heart plea.
11:33It's not someone that's being, I'm not being over-sentimental about it.
11:37You know, I recognise that, well, you know, I've said it.
11:42What more to say?
11:43Absolutely.
11:44And obviously, this is in relation to the death of Colin Hardy.
11:48And many people, including these eminent pathologists, believe that Mr Hardy, rest in peace, died of a result more likely to be alcohol and drug intake.
11:58I think highly likely there was no crime whatsoever.
12:01But as you say, Terry, quite rightly, and that is, well, Clive, first of all, has said he is not leaving prison unless he's exonerated.
12:10Right?
12:10That's right.
12:11Which is a huge statement to make, isn't it?
12:13Because some people would say, oh, just admit it and get out and enjoy the rest of your life.
12:18But it is, you have to have some honour in this life, don't you?
12:23You have to have some integrity when you do.
12:26And I do know a case.
12:27I mean, I'm actually, interestingly enough, working with another case at the moment of someone who I think fairly sure was innocent.
12:37But because, again, because of this particular form of legislation, he said, well, I'm going to admit it and get out.
12:46And, of course, soon as he admitted it, he was admitted to the course and he was released.
12:51Wow.
12:52Terrible.
12:53You see, that's how it works.
12:55I did not know that.
12:56Yeah, it's an insane situation.
12:59Terry, I've heard you say, and I think this is really the question that needs to be asked, and that is, what is actually gained by keeping Clive Freeman inside at this stage?
13:10Well, nothing is gained, nothing at all.
13:13In fact, I mean, it's probably costing the taxpayer something like over $35,000 a year just to keep him there, roughly the cost of what it used to be, the cost anyway, for keeping a prisoner in jail.
13:28There's no reason.
13:29And also, as I understand it, Clive Freeman now is pretty ill.
13:34He's not well.
13:35Yes.
13:36He's not well.
13:36I mean, simple compassion would say, enough, enough, let this man go.
13:44But there we are.
13:45We've, you know, the rules are rules, legislation is legislation.
13:49Somehow we've got to move this forward and get the Criminal Cases Commission, Review Commission.
13:55I think probably that whole body needs looking at again.
13:58Yes, absolutely.
14:00And I can't think of a finer person than yourself to lead the charge.
14:03I mean, Terry, I mean, not that I want to point out the fact that you're 85.
14:09I mean, Terry, you look a good 20 years younger.
14:13And I think this is in part due to the incredibly rich life that you've led, because your life has been very much spent in service to other people.
14:24And that has an impact.
14:27Well, I suppose, yeah, I'm still pretty busy.
14:31I mean, there's work with the homeless, with an organisation called Emmaus, not a religious organisation, a secular organisation.
14:40I mean, we started that 30 years ago when I came out of captivity in Cambridge with a port-a-cabin and nothing else, really.
14:49And now we have 30 communities across the UK.
14:53That's amazing.
14:54Wow.
14:54With enabling homeless, formerly homeless people, to get back into life and get back into full living.
15:03And then, of course, there's work with Hostage International, which is going well, where we give support to hostage families.
15:12And right after this call, I've got a call with someone who's being held in a foreign country, I won't say where.
15:21But through the he's been held in what is called arbitrary detention is in prison.
15:27And because of the facilities made available by his government, he's able to speak with me every two weeks.
15:36He's totally innocent of any crime, but he's just been held because of a dispute with his company.
15:43And he's there.
15:44He's been there for three years.
15:46And I speak with him every two weeks to try and enable him to keep his hope alive.
15:52And that will take place immediately.
15:54I'll put this and finish this conversation with you.
15:58And so there are a whole host of other people, you know, with whom we're working.
16:03We have a very good little, this is Hostage International, again, which I co-founded some 20 odd years ago.
16:10So there's a lot going on, and I don't think I'm about ready to retire yet.
16:18I said I'll probably retire in five years' time when I'm 90.
16:22Oh, that sounds fantastic.
16:24Yours is a life well spent.
16:26I mean, that is the reality.
16:28Yours is a life well spent.
16:29I think we can all learn from you.
16:30Even I can even tell the affection that people hold you with.
16:37The comments are really clear.
16:38Let me read some of them.
16:41Amazing man.
16:41I mean, I keep seeing that already.
16:45Right.
16:46Catherine says, Terry can live life without any.
16:49So many coming in, Terry.
16:50They're leaping in front of my eyes.
16:52Sorry, Catherine.
16:53Terry can live.
16:55Guys, I'm so sorry.
16:57If I can just grab this, I'll try.
16:59Terry can live life without anything holding him down mentally because he doesn't allow the trauma to continue to dwell.
17:05And forgiveness, in some cases, is a must to healing.
17:09Is that a reality for you, that you had to forgive in order to be able to heal?
17:13Because five years where you are in such a place that you were, that takes a lot of forgiveness to be able to go back.
17:21Well, no, I think the answer to that is this.
17:23I certainly don't regard myself as a victim.
17:26I put myself in that situation.
17:28No one put me there.
17:30It was my responsibility.
17:32You know, I knew the danger.
17:34I knew the fact that I could be captured.
17:36I went back because I'd been given the promise that the hostages were sick and one was about to die.
17:43And I said to myself, well, if I if that man dies and I haven't got the courage of my conviction to go and see him, I'm going to have to live with my conscience for the rest of my life.
17:56Because there's a personal motive in it, you know, I'm sick of myself as well.
18:02And so, you know, I have no reason to blame other people.
18:08And if you take a decision, you take your own responsibility for it.
18:13And if things go wrong, well, you don't blame others.
18:16It's my my responsibility.
18:18Wow.
18:19A rare man of principle, says Luggerbugs.
18:21Awakened being, says I remember praying for Terry when I was a child and the other captives that they would be rescued.
18:29Terry, I am not overstating this when I say that you did actually inspire me in terms of my campaigning, because I just felt that you were a true humanitarian.
18:39And I still absolutely believe that.
18:41And I completely take my hat off to you.
18:44Catherine says, well done, Terry.
18:45Very brave man for the sake of humanity.
18:47So humble, says Trudy.
18:49Absolutely.
18:50And I think that's the other.
18:51You're very human, very down to earth.
18:53Go on, Sean.
18:54I agree.
18:54So you mentioned hope before and how important it is that, you know.
18:59Especially in these sorts of times.
19:01So I think everybody right now feels that they've been held hostage or captive on the planet because of like the last three years with COVID and stuff.
19:10And we were all kind of locked in our houses and a lot of people have struggled.
19:14So what lessons and insights can you give from your experience that can help people that are struggling now?
19:21Well, it's interesting you say that because I was with friends yesterday and I was saying, you know, I don't wonder if it's old age.
19:29Or what it is.
19:30But I feel there's greater anxiety at the moment.
19:35You know, I feel greater anxiety.
19:37And my friend said, yes, we also.
19:41And I think there are lots of people like that who are anxious about the situation.
19:46You know, they're anxious about what the effects of climate change.
19:50They're anxious about rising costs.
19:52They're anxious about how they're going to meet the budget and so on.
19:57And an awful lot of the whole pressure is on people at the moment.
20:03Well, I mean, there's no simple one answer to that.
20:08I mean, first of all, you have to be a little bit reconciled with yourself.
20:12You have to admit that we do live in uncertain times.
20:17There's no such thing as absolute certainty.
20:20Right.
20:20And somehow begin to try and say, the area that I can affect for good, let me try and do that.
20:30Let me try and act in some way positively by being not just campaigning, but by being more of a human being, more of a human being, more of a compassionate person to other people, to listen to other people.
20:46Somehow to enrich your own life by enabling and serving other people.
20:52You can do that.
20:54I mean, this is a that's a very simple and probably an over naive way of approaching it.
20:59Hardly naive.
21:00Not at all.
21:01Because you've seen the big picture.
21:02You've seen the big picture, Terry.
21:03I take it.
21:04I take absolutely what you're saying there.
21:06I absolutely do.
21:07I'm so grateful to you joining us this morning, not only to give us a little bit of insight into your incredibly rich background,
21:14which, as I say, you've captured in the book, Taken on Trust, but also in support of Clive Freeman.
21:19We will be putting a link to Clive's petition in the in the show notes afterwards.
21:27But so, Terry, I mean, there's no stopping you really, is there?
21:30That's the reality.
21:31And when you say that, that's overly naive.
21:33I don't think it is.
21:34I actually think that you've been very fortunate, oddly enough, to have.
21:39You've got the big picture.
21:40You've got the big picture in your lifetime.
21:42Well, can I just say thanks to those people who've written in, just to say nice things that's nice of you.
21:50Remember, I'm a human being full of my own fault, so there's no one's perfect.
21:54But also, if you want to have a look about Clive Freeman's case, just Google him.
22:01Put him on the web or whatever.
22:03And a whole host of information will come up and you'll be able to follow that through.
22:08And thanks for all your interest and support.
22:10Pleasure.
22:11Trudy says, much love to you, Terry, and thank you for all you continue to do.
22:16Absolutely.
22:17Everybody.
22:18So, Terry, wait.
22:18Take good care of yourself, Terry.
22:20God bless you.
22:21Bye-bye.
22:21Lovely to see you this morning.
22:22Thank you, Terry.
22:23Have a lovely week.
22:24Lovely to talk to Terry this morning.
22:26And it's odd, Sean, because you know what I'm like about sirs and all that sort of stuff, right?
22:32I don't do that kind of stuff, right?
22:34But every now and again, I go...
22:36Night, Tim.
22:37Yeah.
22:38Every now and again.
22:39And Terry, wait, is one of them.
22:41Beautiful human.
22:42Respect in abundance, Terry, says Michelle.
22:44Thank you, Terry, for all you've done for humanity, says London lady.
22:48Love that.
22:48I mean, that is actually somebody who's literally walked the talk.
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