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00:00because we're not hanging around such an important this is such an important story
00:05and we're going to give it a little bit of extra time because it's it's so vitally needs it
00:10and I just have my guests connecting for me right now which is wonderful and
00:17good morning Michael
00:23and our other guests are just connecting and here we go Terry is just connecting
00:30and Father Hugh Sinclair as well good morning Father Hugh
00:35just connecting to we have Professor Michael Lawton on the screen we now have Terry Wilcock
00:43good morning can you hear me Terry
00:46don't worry it'll connect we'll get there we will absolutely get there there you go
00:53I just heard a connection that was Terry I think
00:56that's me
00:57good morning Terry how are you doing
00:59very good thank you
01:01good man right there you go that's perfect let's have that and
01:04Father Hugh it will connect I'm I have belief we have a higher order overseeing us here Father
01:12right connecting to audio just just there we go can you there you go can you hear me
01:19I can hear you but you're breaking up a bit
01:23am I
01:24you're okay now
01:25good okay well let me uh let's just uh give it a few more seconds just wait for
01:32Father Hugh to hopefully connect with us
01:35they oh
01:38right well let's just give you some information while we're just waiting for
01:45Father Hugh to connect so as I say this is such a vital story that we're going to give it some
01:51extra time because it's that important the three men have joined me today because there is
01:58oh look Father Hugh is getting a bit oh let's what could he redo for him it seems it should be fine
02:06oh that would be such a pity let me just carry on so the three men have joined me today because
02:13there is a man languishing in a British jail who was languished for 34 plus years and uh there's every
02:21reason to believe that he is absolutely innocent and not only should he be free but he should be
02:28exonerated so we are talking about the 1989 conviction
02:33there you go hello Father Hugh can you hear us
02:38wonderful wonderful not at all I'm so glad that you're with us I've just given a very brief
02:44introduction just saying that the three of you have joined me today because for all for the same
02:49reason and that is Clive Freeman was convicted of a murder in 1989 and there is every reason to
02:57believe not only did he absolutely not do it but that the man who died died of natural causes which
03:03we're going to go into in much greater detail during this conversation but first of all let me introduce
03:09my guests we have Terry Wilcock who met Clive Freeman in prison we have Professor Michael Norton who has
03:17been campaigning against wrongful imprisonment for decades and we have miscarriages of justice
03:23stalwart father Hugh Sinclair who was involved with Birmingham Six Guildford Four and uh and and and more
03:31and is absolutely a supporter of Clive all three men know Clive are in regular communication with Clive
03:39and I think I want to start with you Terry if I may you met Clive in prison yes uh you were serving a
03:48conviction for cannabis which you dispute even to this day and me personally I don't believe anybody
03:54should be serving anything for cannabis but that's a whole other show um and but you met Clive in prison
04:01in Layhill I believe in Gloucester and uh what how did he sort of introduce the issues up that don't all
04:09lifers say they're innocent Terry yes yes I do a lot of them do um but Clive was something different
04:18I I I immediately believed in him and his story after I met him in Layhill prison um and I introduced
04:28him to another inmate a serving prisoner uh called Rohan Pashad who was uh actually a barrister a QC in fact
04:38um I and serving time for uh VAT uh fraud uh between us we agreed to have some meetings in Clive's cell
04:51and uh Rohan Pashad again another supporter believed in him and asked him to get the files from the solicitors
04:59from his current solicitors but boxes eventually turned up and between the three of us we went through every
05:05document page by page uh Rohan found a document which had been concealed for 25 years at the time
05:14which was the first um it was the first conclusion uh cause of death by uh the pathologist for the
05:23crown Richard Sheppard who stated that the cause of death was acute pancreatitis probably alcohol relate
05:32um so then that was a CCRC application which went on for three and a half years it took although he was
05:40given priority because of his health and age time spent in prison uh but that uh was rejected the
05:50disclosure of that document which would have assisted Clive in his defense at the trial um was rejected by
05:58the CCIC unfortunately so basically that's how I met him in the library we used to talk and meet in the
06:06library in the prison and uh and we became uh good friends okay uh can I just ask is there somebody in
06:15one of your rooms because I can hear the movement very clearly it's a dog
06:21oh dogs don't talk to me about dogs please don't talk to me about dogs I have an insane dog
06:28father Hugh you are an absolute stalwart of miscarriages of justice you're in no doubt that Clive
06:35is a miscarriage of justice yes that's true um yes I supported quite a number of um people who were
06:43um claiming they suffered miscarriage of justice I met Clive probably 30 years ago or more not long
06:52after he was received into prison having been convicted of this offense um he asked me to do
07:00simple things like contacting people for him and gradually I got to know him and um more the more
07:07I heard him he would talk to me incessantly about his case about the way things had happened and um
07:16he asked me to to help him in in whatever way I could so um I did contact then um on his behalf a
07:24number of forensic scientists and lawyers who were prepared to take up his case and I followed him
07:32through um these 30 years I've followed him most of the prisons in one of a considerable number of
07:39prisons in England over these 30 odd years um and the more I heard the more I saw the more I had
07:47contact with him the more I became convinced that he was certainly a victim of a miscarriage of justice
07:54right and through the cause of that we've probably gone to the CCRC the Criminal Cases Review Commission
08:02four or five times and got knocked back every time despite really the fact that we had a volume of
08:09evidence that contradicted Richard Shepherd's um original um uh his evidence in in in the court um and
08:21um well one is just horrified really at the way the CCR does operate I think because well it doesn't
08:29seem to take on board or do what it was supposed to do up after the May Commission was and called to
08:37set up looking into um injustice cases and um I think he's been a victim not just of what happened in
08:45court but what's happened ever since well this brings us very neatly to Michael so the Crown's case
08:53was um that uh Clive had murdered Alexander Hardy a stranger he'd met in a pub this was supposed to be
09:02part of an insurance scam he'd only met uh Hardy the night before um and the idea was apparently that
09:12there would be a fire and the body would be wrongly identified as Freeman three hundred thousand pound
09:18paid out etc etc Michael just I mean tell us what are your problems with this conviction
09:27well thank you Sonia um I think I've been working on led wrong convictions now for 20 years
09:34and you know when I first started off the criminal case review commission had just been established
09:40and it was established because the Birmingham Six and the Guild for Four cases had been able to reveal
09:45the limitations with the existing criminal appeal system at that time so they needed to be this new
09:50body because the existing legal system didn't actually deal with certain cases if they didn't have
09:56this thing called fresh evidence so people have had a fair trial but then they don't have this new
10:01evidence that wasn't available so they can't overturn their convictions even if they're innocent
10:06right that wasn't considered to be acceptable so this criminal cases review commission was set up
10:12and like Father Sinclair says its brief was to be able to deal with these uh cases that the legal
10:18system couldn't deal with in the interests of truth and justice because it's not acceptable by the
10:24British public for innocent people to languish in prison the problem with the CCRC is though the
10:31when it was established there was a clause and I don't know why this was put in or who it was
10:36put in by but instead of it being independent and being able to investigate electrical convictions
10:43uh independently because it has a budget it has lots of powers to be able to do things if it wants to
10:49but it's hamstrung because it can only refer a case back to the court of appeal if it's deemed to have
10:55a real possibility that it will be overturned so what the CCRC has to do it then has to look at the
11:02criteria of the court of appeal and it has to say well the court of appeal only wants cases where there's
11:08fresh evidence so we're back to square one and the CCRC now just mirrors what the court of appeal does
11:15and so I used to try to help people and make applications to the CCRC with innocence projects
11:22and I've given up that project because case after case after case of the case is being rejected
11:28I was looking at our database this morning and Clive is on our database but I don't know exactly when
11:33Clive contacted us but certainly more than 10 years ago Clive contacted us but we don't have a lot of
11:39information about his case but he kind of jumped off the page at that time because there's people who
11:45were convicted for crimes that they didn't do so there's a murder and the wrong person is convicted
11:51like the Birmingham Six or the Guildford War then there's these other crimes where no crime actually
11:57occurred and I've been writing about I wrote first wrote about that in 2004 and Clive fits into that
12:03category that there's been this this unwillingness by Richard Sheppard the forensic pathologist
12:09to revisit this case despite the fact that there's now a kind of group of nine of the most eminent
12:17forensic pathologists in the world that have all said that uh the Richard Sheppard made a mistake
12:25but the CCRC every time a new report comes in from a new expert they don't think well this is the sixth
12:32one this is the seventh one this is the eighth one this is now nine they just look at them individually
12:37send them to Richard Sheppard right well this is questioning what you said what do you say and he
12:44says I stick by my original findings the case is rejected it's ridiculous it's circular isn't it
12:51absolutely ridiculous Terry you made a promise to Clive when you left him in prison that you would do
12:57everything you could to have him cleared exonerated and freed and you sent me a recording this week that
13:07you had made with Clive with his permission in which he talks about what Michael has just referred to the
13:12nine eminent pathologists the importance of us really pushing home that information now was it yourself and
13:21Father Hugh who went and uh and were not confronted probably not that sounds a bit hostile but Richard
13:28Sheppard is that correct yes yeah yeah and what did you give him
13:35sorry Terry um sorry yeah oh sorry yes we we we attended uh one of his shows he's touring the country
13:44promoting a book and he was having uh talks around theaters in the country and me and Father Hugh
13:51and a reporter attended one and we went to the book signing thereafter and uh Father Hugh approached uh
14:00Richard Sheppard and asked him what he thought about uh Clive Freeman's case which by that time had been 33
14:08years and he remembered immediately he said that case has has been on my mind
14:17fresh evidence he said yes I would if it came from a solicitor which we we arranged and then he asked the
14:26uh security to I was removed uh which we left and I I was holding a banner free Clive Freeman uh 35 years in
14:37prison for a murder that never was because we have nine pathologists all eminent pathologists all all
14:44denying Richard Sheppard's conclusion and two in particular uh Crow and Cola American base have done the
14:52study of 2000 similar deaths of what Sheppard said and their conclusion was it's actually impossible
15:00scientifically impossible for this guy to have died the way Richard Sheppard said he did
15:06uh so they joined the over seven in total Professor Mand, Ackland, Milroy, Crane, Karch, Kroll,
15:14Cola, Birch, Knight, some of those are OBEs this is significant I mean 450 years in total experience
15:23and as you point out uh or you pointed out to me rather that uh Clive's tariff was 13 years
15:30and he would be absolutely out by now if he was prepared to have said I'm guilty I did it but he
15:37won't he simply won't say it now let's talk about the other thing that he'd said on that recording
15:43Terry if I may and that was he talked about the bruising um to the back and about how only Richard
15:50Sheppard had apparently seen those photos did I get that correct? Yes on the third autopsy not on the first
15:57or the second or the third in fact the back was examined uh in one of those previous autopsies
16:04and Richard Sheppard said no marks to the back over the nightly so the back was clear at that stage on
16:11the third autopsy after he'd been speaking to the officers dealing with the case he discovered a bruise
16:18in in three places on the back which could have only appeared by having a heavy object placed on the chest
16:26this is uh being contradicted by some of the pathologists and specialists in that field
16:32but yet it still remains uh at one stage he said on a telephone uh interview with the CCRC
16:39he said he discovered the bruises and dissected them we've seen no photos of the bruises we've seen no
16:46photos of any dissection over them on one of the arms was dissected because a bruise was discovered
16:52we've seen photos of that and that's the proper way to deal with this situation by a pathologist but
16:57yet no evidence of any bruising other than what Sheppard said in his fairy of the Birkin Birkin hair
17:06it's it is very very straight father one of the things that you're absolutely aware of is that the
17:12sort of degree of effort it takes in order to be able to overturn these miscarriages of justice if we
17:20were on a a sort of line of naught to ten where are we with Clive in terms of getting closer to
17:28something like that it's very difficult to say actually because um we're living in a fog really
17:36or a situation of real impasse where our only our only way out is through the CCRC it seems to me
17:45and they keep coming up again one of the things they do they say this issue was dealt with at the trial
17:52now if you bring eight other people in who say that's wrong they still say well it was issue that
17:58was dealt with at the trial and therefore you know we're not really going to pay much attention to it
18:05and there's there is another issue in this case which concerns um Clive had an alibi which was never
18:12disproved um he was he was looking for his daughter the night before he left he went to a club in earl's
18:21court um and um he was drunk carrying a suitcase and the doorman um told him that he'd be better off
18:32going across the road to a hotel there and sleep it off so he'd be all right for going off on a plane in
18:39the morning now um the the woman who gave evidence the woman were working in the hotel said quite
18:49simply um yes i signed him in she was treated as a hostile witness by the prosecution who'd called her
18:57actually and um um um she said Clive could have if if he if he had left the hotel he could not have
19:07got back in without being let in by somebody yeah um and there was a big distance between um
19:17the hotel where he was and the flat that he was living in when he was supposed to have carried out this
19:22murder um and everybody's quite clear that he was drunk um 20 years after the event we actually did
19:32we found the dorm through through an advert in a south african wow and i've got his statement here
19:40he signed an affidavit in front of them but we put that into and they they didn't even bother with
19:46that because they said again the issue of the alibi had been dealt with at the trial it was almost
19:51a foregone conclusion i should say this will be the first of many occasions that we will visit this
19:56story and as we go deeper into the story it will become apparent that there are other issues going on
20:02in the background of a political nature yes and i think that's important just to touch upon that now
20:09so that our viewers can be absolutely aware that this because there'll be people scratching their heads
20:14going well it doesn't make sense nine eminent pathologists an alibi it doesn't make sense
20:19well it does make sense if there's other things where strings are being pulled that's when it does
20:23make sense and one of the things you're absolutely aware of father hugh is the sheer effort that clive
20:30has gone to in order to be able to have his voice heard tell us some about that but it is incredible
20:36really i mean he's had 30 years and this thing has been in his head and in his heart all the way through
20:41particularly he wanted to um clear his name for the sake of his mum and other members of the family
20:49he has no family in this country so he's really on his own and he has an encyclopedic knowledge of this
20:58case you know he can quote chapter and verse from the paperwork and i think it's very difficult for
21:06anyone to actually catch you never jump to catch him out if i put it that way um he lives day by day
21:14with this case he prays about it he's a man of prayer um and there are times you know you can imagine
21:24every time he lost in the criminal cases review commission it was a complete
21:30knocking down really his hopes would be built up when the papers went in we'd wait for years for
21:36answers and then nothing and it it's a tremendous spirit maybe it's something about the south african
21:44character i think he just right is determined right and um well one just becomes more and more convinced
21:53by the way he speaks about this that um it's all wrong well and the thing is michael i'm i i'm sure
22:01you've had a similar experience but my experience is when somebody's innocent they can't stop telling
22:05you they're innocent right yeah and he will talk to anybody who listens right good good and that's
22:14what we want sorry michael i was just going to say that if anybody wants to um get a kind of
22:20comprehensive understanding of of clive freeman's uh applications to the criminal case review commission
22:27and what's being asked of the ccrc and what their response is there's an article on ccrc watch website
22:35so you've just got ccrc watch clive freeman into google the article will come up and i think anybody who
22:40reads that with an open mind will be saying clive freeman shouldn't be in prison should never have been
22:46charged with any offense no crime actually happened but you see this is about clive freeman but we
22:53produced we've i've been trying to reform the ccrc because of uh innocent people in prison but as i
23:00said for 20 years and uh we produced a dossier of cases about 10 years ago and then we had 44 cases
23:09of people convicted of murder child sexual offense terrorist offenses all kinds of other offenses
23:16that have been rejected by the ccrc not because they're not innocent but because the ccrc say they
23:22didn't have new evidence of their innocence so as father sinclair says they say the court's already
23:28dealt with that point we don't care if you're innocent and what i always find interesting is
23:33you get a lot of commentators about the criminal justice system in this country very eminent people
23:38and they point fingers around the world like oh if you go to america they have a worse criminal
23:43justice system than us if you go to these other countries they have a worse criminal justice than us
23:48and they say oh in america you know if you've had a fair trial it doesn't matter if you're innocent
23:53in prison right you say to them do you not understand that there are people in prison in
23:58this country we're languishing in prison we've got evidence of their innocence like clive freeman
24:03and and nobody seems to even know about their cases and everybody still thinks we have the best
24:09criminal justice system in the world and so we we need people to get behind this case we need people to
24:16read about this case and we need people to join the campaign for the ccrc to be reformed or replaced
24:23because we need a body that can help innocent people trapped in prison yeah absolutely and i
24:29completely agree with that that not enough people do know about this case this is very new to a lot
24:34of our viewers because i put out a tweet yesterday saying we were covering it and i received emails
24:39saying never heard about that case but i'm just reading about it now and i want to thank aaron for
24:44bringing us all together today who's worked fastidiously to make sure that we're all here today
24:50talking about this situation now terry there is another reason why time is absolutely imperative
24:56that we act regarding clive and that is i believe he's 78 now and he's not well is he no he's got cancer
25:04uh he's had a he's had a prognosis which he doesn't discuss but he said it's not good terry
25:12um he's frailing his voice when i speak to him on the telephones gets worse by the week he's out of
25:19breath he has to walk from one wing to another to get to the phone uh he's struggling he's very very
25:26ill very ill indeed um i'm just touching on the uh hotel situation i know it's evidence and we're not
25:33on a trial here we're not this is not a trial today we haven't got the time for that but we
25:37might discuss evidence in another show which will be interesting because monica barber was the
25:43receptionist the chavea hotel was a hotel i visited that i i took pictures of it i looked it was locked up
25:51i looked through the door the desk was directly feet away from the door from the entrance where
25:58monica barber sat that night she didn't see clive leave or return he was sleeping he was sleeping when
26:04this guy died at the other side of london right and there was one of a witness quickly david taylor's
26:11was an eyewitness who said he's seen clive enter the flat whether whether where hardy died that night
26:19uh i think it was nine years later he couldn't live with himself he retracted his evidence and
26:24wrote to the authorities and said that he uh he was coasting to saying it or he you know it didn't
26:31it didn't see him he actually didn't see him but that's all evidence we can discuss the prosecution
26:36and the ccrc say well there's circumstantial evidence and even if it didn't uh we disregard
26:43shepherd's evidence there's circumstantial evidence to say that he could have also done it
26:48uh and that's what the judge said too but the fact of the matter is there was no murder
26:54so the circumstantial evidence goes out the window the guy died of alcohol and drugs
27:00um that's that's that's the case as we see it right and there was lots of information that didn't
27:06add up i think they'd said that um uh that he was homeless and in fact he wasn't homeless
27:12at all um he i think he had a property he lived in a flat in brixton as one example so there's lots of
27:18details that didn't really add up which i'm sure father hugh having gone through various miscarriages
27:24of justice it must feel a bit like banging your head against a brick wall because we hear from michael
27:30that the whole ccrc process is just circular it is just so incredibly frustrating and the whole
27:37criminal justice system needs a review and so i mean what can we do as people watching this now
27:44because people will feel helpless they're hearing what you're saying where there's clearly an issue
27:49i only had to do a cursory glance of this case to realize there was an issue with it without having to
27:54do the deep dive that all three of you have done so father what can we do to raise awareness to this
28:00situation well i think have access through programs like yours and any other way in which we can um
28:09maybe um spread the news really um i've always thought one thing i'd like to find out was it happened
28:17in one of the other cases i knew about to find out what it was that the jury accepted to convict him in
28:24the first place right is there any jurors who listen to your program very interesting to find out
28:30because uh i think it might it might raise other issues um and um yes i think we just keep plugging
28:39away doing whatever we can i'd say certainly for terry um and myself too this case is in our heads and in
28:49our hearts every day i mean it doesn't go away clive already me maybe two or three times a week
28:55really that that that many i mean when i heard his voice on that recording i just i could hear the
29:02vulnerability because and we discussed this when we'd all had a sort of you know a test and a chat
29:08earlier this week and one of the things that i said was how do you get through that that how do you get
29:15through it and i think i said how do you get through the day and i think michael said actually
29:20no for these prisoners it's about getting through the next minute was that you said that to me michael
29:26yeah i mean it's a question that we always ask people who spent a long time in prison and i've met
29:31men who spent 25 35 years in prison and i say that to them i say is it just about getting through the day
29:37and they just look at me and go the day sometimes you're just trying to get through the next minute
29:44and and they kind of on the surface you know they try and put a front on but the research shows that
29:51that people are going to prison who actually did the crime that they went into prison for every day
29:56in prison is a closer time it's you know another day closer to being released but the research by
30:03oxford university is that uh every day an innocent person spends in prison the harm of that wrongful
30:09conviction gets worse and there's no end in sight for people like clive because he won't say he did it
30:17so a lot of these the way that you get out of prison is you've got to do offending behavior courses
30:24your offending behavior courses are tailored to the crime that you're in prison for
30:28and some of these uh any behavior courses require you to admit you are guilt because
30:35you people want to see remorse right prisoners maintaining innocence can't admit their guilt
30:40because they only give up their chances of ever overturning their convictions on appeal right
30:45so they're literally trapped in prison nobody knows about them and we don't realize it in this
30:51country you know we have people who are given a 13-year tariff and they're still in prison after 35 years
30:58and so you know we're going to have a public event in the spring next year and we want more and more
31:03people because if you look at the history of criminal justice system we form in this country
31:08whether it be the court of appeal the abolition of capital punishment the setting of the ccrc
31:13the introduction of the crown prosecution service all of these things were when there was a public
31:19crisis of confidence in the existing criminal justice system because of miscarriage of justice cases
31:25so this is why i try to highlight these cases like clives because anybody who looks at that case
31:31will say the ccrc isn't working as it should be working and we need that groundswell of of public crisis of
31:39confidence in the existing system so that we can actually get it reformed or replaced absolutely
31:45michael i should say to our viewers we'll be returning to talk about another case which is of
31:49great interest to us and again we feel is absolutely failed by the ccrc which is obviously the the the
31:55criminal review body and that is the case of jeremy bamber and uh so just to be in prison for such a
32:02lengthy period of time terry what is it absolutely vital that our viewers understand about this unsafe
32:10conviction well we have to understand that and that a guy's lost his life for something he didn't do for
32:18something what never actually happen we have to think about him laid in that cell day after day
32:24night after night uh losing his wife to cancer losing his father losing his mother losing friends
32:31relatives all died now and he made a promise to uh or his wife that uh that he wouldn't leave prison uh
32:40unless he was exonerated and a free man and he's kept to that promise despite serving 20 years more than
32:47what he he could have done and had he admitted it um touching on uh what uh father you said regarding
32:55the jury what they seen and what they heard just quickly because i know clive would want me to mention
33:00this uh professor man had 40 years experience he was the pathologist for the defense he stated the facts
33:08he stated that he thought that death was due to alcohol and drugs exactly what shepherd uh conclusion
33:16war on his first uh opinion which he concealed um and uh he gave a fiat theoretical uh show
33:24to the jury the warden sat beside clive said that guy should be in hollywood he was throwing his arms around
33:31raising his voice and uh saying that he'd learned this uh technique in the forces we've got
33:38ex uh gray scouts i think four or five of them have brought statements to say there was never trained in the
33:44the birkins and that's a silent killing what uh shepherd described uh and mr mann professor mann
33:52was 40 years experience shepherds was at that time was two years experience uh but he sweared the jury
34:00with his act i didn't realize that he'd had such little experience at that uh two years that's very
34:09interesting i should point out obviously if you hadn't already picked up clive wasn't originally from
34:13the uk was he born in radicia is that correct yes that's correct right so that's you know i mean all
34:20of this stuff is so vital as i say please see this as an introduction into the case because there's so
34:25much more to explore which is why i wanted to give it a bit more time today father hugh what is it that
34:30you feel is absolutely vital that our viewers know about this case in order to get behind it
34:36that clive's innocent that's that's the bottom line you know um and um i've always said that
34:47the fact that the law makes mistakes we should accept because it's not an exact science our big problem is
34:55that we take so long and we're so obstructively in trying to put the wrongs right right it's the system
35:03that's wrong and it needs to be changed and so i think supporting things like what michael has been
35:11talking about um is important that people educate themselves about the realities of our legal system
35:20and the way it operates absolutely because people just get demonized and then obviously they get
35:26demonized in the media and they're monsters and then that's it and then the whole public
35:30you know have these attitudes towards them and you have to almost penetrate all that you have to
35:35remove all those obstacles of what people think about a character before you can even get them
35:40through to the other side to where the real evidence is michael give us a sort of takeaway message
35:45about what we need to know well you know i mean in in the 20 years that i've been working on
35:52wrongful convictions i think that you know when you talk about the harmful consequences to innocent
35:58victims of wrongful convictions once they've overturned their cases um you know it's quite a
36:03difficult it's a difficult cell while while they're in prison people just want to kind of hang on to the
36:08belief that they are guilty when they come out of prison innocent we have netflix programs about them
36:13everybody watches them everybody says you know oh my god i heard about this innocent person in prison
36:19but the case then has already been overturned and they don't realize there's other people in prison
36:24one of the things that i've been doing to try to get the british public more concerned about
36:29wrongful convictions is to say well if you don't care about innocent people in prison you need to
36:36consider this and this doesn't apply in clive freeman's case obviously but if you're thinking about a
36:41kind of more kind of general kind of murder conviction where somebody's in prison for 20 30 years
36:47saying they didn't do it what it means is that the real murderer is at liberty with the potential
36:53and reality to commit further crimes and the research in the united states on the first 150
37:00dna exonerations by the innocence project showed that because they just they were able to identify
37:07in the first 150 dna exonerations who the real rapist and murderer was so then they looked into their
37:15criminal histories while they were at wrongful liberty and they found out that these people
37:21had committed another 36 murders another 30 odd rapes and loads of other serious offenses so
37:28innocent people in prison if you don't care about them well that's okay but you need to care about
37:34yourself right to know that people are out there who have actually done the murders and the crimes that
37:41other people are in prison for still walking around so it's not that we're do-gooders and want to
37:46believe that right they're innocent right it's not that we believe people i've written an awful lot
37:52about the reasons why people say they're innocent when they're not and we just only focus on cases like
37:58clives where there's all of this evidence that totally discredits any reason why they're in prison at
38:05all and so you know we want people to follow up from watching this uh this channel and watching this
38:11these interviews and do some research for yourself yeah contact me contact father you
38:17contact terror and join the campaign to try to make life for a man's case opened up again
38:23and where can we join that campaign well write an email to empowering the innocent and we'll start to
38:29liaise it from there right yeah we'll get a petition going if we get enough people writing in
38:35and we'll organize public meetings and we'll just keep this going yeah it makes absolutely no sense
38:42this conviction makes no sense and the reason why obviously michael is saying it doesn't apply in this
38:47case is because there's every reason to believe sadly that the man in question died through natural
38:52causes direct well if you can call drink and drugs natural causes but the point is it wasn't a murder
38:59just to finish i mean i've just written an article and you know i believed for many many years that
39:06if we just did the right kind of applications to the criminal case review commission surely it would
39:13actually refer those cases and i've just written this article that says that there's this adage that says
39:19if the evidence doesn't fit the theory you need to change the theory so in the first few years of the
39:24the ccrc okay you give it you're going to give it a bit of a chance but after 25 years of the criminal
39:30cases review commission all the evidence that we have and all the cases that are stacking up the
39:35theory needs to be changed and the theory that the ccrc exists to help innocent people in prison
39:41needs to be replaced with the theory that the ccrc is settled to render wrongful convictions invisible
39:48and to stop them public coming to public attention that's that's the evidence that we can see with
39:55all of these cases and none better than clive freedom i was just going to say what a stunning legacy
40:01it would be if we if we're able to find any silver lining at all for this awful what appears to be
40:08unquestionably a miscarriage of justice if there's any silver lining is that clive's case may be the hinge
40:14which changes the system and please god may that happen i want to thank you all very much
40:20for joining us this morning as i say this is a continuing conversation for us everybody please
40:25check this out clive freeman absolutely to believe to be one of our longest serving miscarriage of
40:33justice prisoners in the uk i want to thank terry wilcock for joining us father hugh sinclair and professor
40:41uh uh sorry i've just suddenly forgotten your name michael i was just going to call you paul
40:45and professor michael norton thank you all so very much for everything you're doing because i tell you
40:51what there but for the grace of god go any of us and if any of us are in that position i want to know
40:57that there are people like you out here who are still fighting for us and being a voice so thank you
41:02so much take good care of yourself and once again aaron thank you so much for making all this possible
41:07take care to tonya can i just say thank you for having the courage to take this on and put it
41:13before the people because um it's been a long time coming but maybe now we can we can move things on
41:21god willing but thank you for you yes and those of you who do pray pray for clive and in fact for
41:29alexander hardy the man who done absolutely and that and that's the thing is that absolutely by clearing
41:36clive that's no reflection on alexander at all at all but i'm sure that even a dead man would want
41:44the truth to be known uh you know i'm sure of that so take good care of yourself and thank you very
41:50much for joining us this morning everybody free clive freeman take good care thank you very much
41:55god bless bye this is see you see these miscarriages of justice it it's horrendous and especially when
42:02you're dealing with such a system as the ccrc um which is fairly heinous frankly not helpful
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