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2025 marks 80 years since the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. Among the thousands who perished were two young Malayans, while a third survived to tell the tale. Yet their names remain little known here at home. As we reflect on Merdeka and Malaysia Day, can we reclaim this memory as part of our collective heritage? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Aaron Denison Deivasagayam, Doctoral Student at Hiroshima University in Japan.
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00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:15where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day.
00:202025 marks 80 years since the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. Now among the thousands who perished
00:27there were two young Malaysians while a third survived to tell the tale. Yet their names
00:34remain little known here at home. So as we reflect on Merdeka and Malaysia Day during this period,
00:42can we reclaim this memory as part of our collective heritage? Joining us on the show today
00:48is Erin Dennison Devasagayam who is a doctoral student at Hiroshima University in Japan.
00:55Erin, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. I really appreciate your time
00:58and I'm curious to know from where you're sitting in Hiroshima right now, what have been your
01:05observations about the 80th anniversary? How is that being marked in Japan? Are there conversations
01:13about the significance of the atomic bombings? You know, how it's been, how is it being reflected
01:23on this year? Thank you so much, Melissa. Thank you so much for having me. In terms of the
01:29commemoration, right, of the Hiroshima atomic bombings, this year is special because it's 80 years
01:35and usually how the commemoration begins is there will be a memory, a memorial in front of the
01:46cenotaph for the A-bomb victims. So basically to console the families who are involved in this
01:52tragic incidents. And then the cenotaph is a place where the names of all the A-bomb victims are
02:00officially registered and placed. So this number has increased over the years. So as of May 2025,
02:07the official count of those who were actually exposed to the bombings are at 344,306. So 344,306.
02:17And it does not only include Japanese but also non-Japanese. They not only lost their lives on
02:23the day of the bombing but the number includes A-bomb survivors that lost their lives later either
02:28due to illness or even old age. So the ceremony usually begins in the morning around 8 with the
02:36mayor of Hiroshima and the representative of families of the victims. They'll put their flowers in front
02:45of the cenotaph. And then at 815, the time when the atomic bomb was dropped, the peace bell will be
02:51rung. And everyone offers a minute of silence. And then after that, there will be a peace declaration
03:00offered by the mayor of Hiroshima. And then the Japanese prime minister then presents an address
03:05about the memorial and about Japan's position as a whole. Just to mention that normally foreign
03:16dignitaries are invited to attend. And Malaysia is of course one of those that I invited to attend
03:22the ceremony as well. There was a huge controversy last year because Hiroshima city government
03:29extended an invitation to Israel to attend the ceremony but not Palestine. So because of that
03:36huge chaos last year, what happened this year is that the Hiroshima prefectural government actually
03:42invited all 195 nations and regions including Palestine to attend this year's ceremony. As well as
03:50they have actually bought Russia and Belarus's representative from attending the ceremony but this year
03:56they've allowed it to happen. Just so because it's the 80th year and they want to make sure that the
04:03memory of Hiroshima continues to resonate with many around the world. It was actually a very beautiful
04:09ceremony this year. And it's also usually that's the official ceremony. And then there's also the
04:16unofficial ceremony where there is protest by anti-war activists, anti-nuclear activists that also takes place
04:24on the side. Because a lot of VIPs are there, right? So this is the time for them to also show that
04:33what is their stand on this. The Japanese government could do better in terms of their security policies and things like that.
04:40Well, thank you for bringing that up. Can I get you to elaborate a little bit on that? Given Japan's history as a former imperial power and the context of what's happening around the world today with
04:53Gaza, the genocide in Gaza and many other genocides around the world, I think there are, as you said, there are anti-war protesters at such an important event like the 80th commemoration of the A-bombings. How do we think about that?
05:15Talk to me a little bit about the sentiment in Japan after 80 years of having to reflect and deal with the aftermath of the bombings.
05:24I think the sentiment in Japan is very much sort of, I would say, led or propagated by the survivors of the A-bomb. I think while the Japanese government had a different, have a different stand, but it's the hibakushas or the survivors actually spearhead the conversations about what should be the policy by the Japanese government.
05:50It's interesting that the survivors of the atomic bombings actually acknowledge the atrocities of the Japanese imperial government, which is rare usually, but they also, at the same time, they also do not blame the U.S. for doing what they did.
06:10But at the same time, there are also others that actually felt that, was it, was there a need for the U.S. to drop the bomb because Japan was already on the verge of defeat?
06:19So, was Japan the real target or was it intended to send a message to someone else like the Soviet Union, for example?
06:26So, this is where I think we can talk about the impact of the atomic bombing on Hiroshima in the global context, because despite having a huge lesson right in front of our eyes, the world seemed to have not learned at all from it.
06:41I mean, a lot of countries continues to be complicit with what's happening in Gaza, what's happening in Lebanon, what's happening as well as in Iran, right?
06:54So, and I think we have to remember that according to Amnesty International, when images of Gaza are placed alongside those of Hiroshima 80 years ago, the perils are striking.
07:04Because like Hiroshima, the devastation in Gaza is catastrophic, with entire families wiped out, children buried under the rubble, hospitals and schools reduced to dust.
07:13It was the same thing that happened eight years ago in Hiroshima, right?
07:17So, once again, I think it is very much crucial for countries and leaders around the world to seriously tweet the experience of the atomic bombings, both in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as a core indicator when making decisions.
07:30And a lot of survivors in Hiroshima, as well as Nagasaki, I mean, I've heard this, they often say that they don't want this to happen.
07:39What happened to them should end with them. And that's why they always use the phrase no more Hiroshima or no more Nagasaki, which means that the usage of nuclear bombs should stop them.
07:48And it shouldn't be continued anywhere around the world.
07:51Well, Aaron, you are in Hiroshima University pursuing your doctorate, your PhD.
07:58Talk to me a little bit about your personal interest and motivation in this moment of history, not just because it is so important being at the 80th anniversary,
08:07but also you are seeking to bring attention to Malaysia's part in this moment of history.
08:16Yeah, so my keen interest in the subject, right, was part when I first visited the Peace Memorial Museum back in 2021.
08:25Wow, it's a long time ago. And while going through the exhibition, right, there was an exhibition of Abdul Razak, who was one of the Malaysian survivors of the atomic bomb.
08:35So after that, I began to participate in some of the activities and workshops organized by the museum in providing foreign residents living in Hiroshima information
08:44and to know more about what was the effect of the atomic bombings.
08:49So and then consequently, I sort of sort of scheduled a one on one session with a second generation A-bomb survivor at the museum by the name of Okamoto-san.
09:01And he told me the story about about his mother, who was a survivor.
09:07But he was very he was a small boy at the time and just remembered bits and pieces of what happened in 1945.
09:15The important thing that he told me that his mother never mentioned anything about his family being an A-bomb survivor due to the fear of facing discrimination,
09:24because that was what the A-bomb survivors faced, because they thought that those who got infected by the radiation,
09:33they could actually be like if you have close contact, the other person could get radiation.
09:40So that was the perception. So that's why a lot of the A-bomb survivors were discriminated.
09:47And some of them actually didn't even mention that they are survivors of the A-bomb.
09:51So that was what they faced at that time.
09:54So and I had a conversation with him, very open conversation with him, and he said the challenges that his family faced.
10:00And then he decided to come up in his 50s, actually late on to tell the story to provide awareness,
10:08despite the stigma and all those things.
10:11And I had a conversation with him about the Malaysian victims.
10:15He knew about it at the back of his head, but not too much in details.
10:21Then I told him that there is a lack of awareness of the issue in Malaysia.
10:26And he told me that, why don't you start providing the awareness, right?
10:30You're already here. I mean, you're going to spend the next your next four years here.
10:33So why not start providing awareness?
10:36Tell the story of how I'm telling my story of my family.
10:40Tell the story of the Malaysian victims back home to your audience in Malaysia.
10:44So that is actually, that's where it all began.
10:47And I started to actually talk about it more.
10:50I really love that.
10:51Well, tell us the story of the Malaysian victims.
10:54The three Malaysian students who were present and two didn't survive the bombings and one made it home.
11:01Tell us their story.
11:03Yeah.
11:04So as we know, during the Japanese occupation of Malaya in 1941 to 1945, the Japanese government aggressively promoted Japanese language education in Malaya as part of their efforts to foster a greater understanding of Japan among Asians.
11:24And then we knew the propaganda of Asians for Asians and all.
11:28So it was part of that sort of narrative.
11:31So they came up with a scholarship called Nampo Tokobetsu Rukakusei Scholarship, where 205 students from Southeast Asia were sent to Japan in August 1943 to become Japanese language teachers.
11:46So out of the 205 students from Southeast Asia, 12 of them were from Malaya.
11:56And the late Nick Yusof, Syed Omar and Abdul Razak were among those 12.
12:00And among the 12 from Malaya, three of them were stationed in Hiroshima University.
12:07Right.
12:08So Nick Yusof and Syed Omar were 17 at the time, while Abdul Razak was 19.
12:14So really young.
12:15And then after completing the two years of Japanese preparatory training in Tokyo, all three of them together with other 17 other foreign students enrolled at Hiroshima University.
12:30And by August 1945, they have been in Hiroshima for about nine months already.
12:37And so on the morning of the 6th of August 1945, Abdul Razak, who was a sole survivor, had lectures in the university while Nick Yusof and Syed Omar were at the dormitory.
12:51So they didn't have classes on the day.
12:53Right.
12:54So they were about 500 meters away from the epicenter.
13:01While the, so Syed Omar and Nick Yusof were 500 meters away, while Abdul Razak was 1.5 kilometers away from where the bomb dropped.
13:11Right.
13:12So at 8.15, when the bomb was dropped and released over Hiroshima, it basically dropped very close to their dormitory.
13:23So Nick Yusof survived the initial class and was said, so one of the books said that he crawled out of the rubble and tried to make his way to Tokyo.
13:33So at that time, everyone wants the bomb dropped.
13:35Everyone wanted to get out of Hiroshima.
13:37Right.
13:38And go to Tokyo.
13:39Right.
13:40To the capital.
13:41To maybe, of course, go back home.
13:42Right.
13:43But then despite Nick Yusof being able to survive the initial class, he was caught in the fire and he suffered heavy burns and succumbed to his death in August 1945 as a result of the radiation as well.
13:58So his body was among the thousands that were collected and taken to a crematorium at a nearby temple.
14:04So he was identified by the name on found on the clothing.
14:07So they have a name tag.
14:08Right.
14:09So everyone that were sort of lifted up to be cremated had a name tag.
14:14So after the cremation, the ashes is just put together with the names attached to them.
14:19So and his cremated body was gathered and bathed, according to Islamic burial rights by a few Muslim locals, and was later buried at Kozenji time.
14:33At Kozenji temple.
14:34So in a Buddhist temple.
14:36So he is now placed and buried and taken care of at a Buddhist temple in Kozenji in Hiroshima.
14:43Said Omar, on the other hand, he also survived the initial blast and tried to make it and tried to make his way to Tokyo as well.
14:51But again, the radiation got to him.
14:54He stayed behind in a hospital in Kyoto to be treated.
14:58So apparently his flesh cracked and fell apart.
15:01And despite the doctor, Dr. Hajima was one of the doctors that actually tried to save him by transfusing his own blood.
15:09But then despite that, he soon passed away in September 1945.
15:14So after a month.
15:15And he is now laid at the cemetery in Enkoji temple in Kyoto.
15:20So that's the story about the two victims of the Hiroshima bomb.
15:25All right.
15:26Well, we'll come to the survivor, Abdurraza, a little later.
15:30But can I ask you, how did you find all this information about them?
15:35Are records kept well about the victims of the bombings?
15:40How did you, how were you able to track what happened to them and where they were finally laid to rest?
15:46So this was a challenge.
15:47This was a really huge challenge because one of them, one, most of it were in Japanese.
15:53Right.
15:54And it's very good that there's this one person called Aoki Keiko.
16:01So she is also a survivor.
16:03And she actually wrote a book, a very short children's book, actually, about the story of Nick Yusuf.
16:11And the way she wrote the book is that Nick Yusuf is actually narrating the story.
16:16So hi, me and my friends, Omar and Raza came to Hiroshima.
16:20We studied, we sang Rasasayang every day.
16:22So it was a really a nice book for children's.
16:26And I have three copy of those books, actually.
16:29And when I come back, I will donate it to the to the library.
16:32So so that so that was one of the first books that I collected information from.
16:38And then later on, I started speaking to more survivors who actually knew about.
16:44So there are survivors who actually do a lot of research about foreign residents who were affected by the atomic bombings,
16:53like the Koreans, the Chinese, Malaysians.
16:56So a lot of them, these are all volunteers, actually.
16:59Right.
17:00Wow.
17:01So these are all volunteers to actually test the work.
17:03That's one.
17:04Second is Hiroshima University.
17:07Every year on the 6th of August, we actually attend Nick Yusuf, Nick Yusuf's memorial at Kozenji Temple.
17:16So a month before all the Malaysian students in Hiroshima University will get an email.
17:20So as usual, are you guys interested in attending the memorial of Nick Yusuf at Kozenji Temple?
17:26So they usually give us, provide us with transport because from the university, it takes about two hours to go to the temple.
17:35So we are actually the VIPs on that day because everyone will be waiting for our arrival before they actually start the memorial service.
17:42So because Nick Yusuf is considered like a super alumni for us.
17:47Right.
17:48So it's a very beautiful ceremony because the Buddhist priest that actually does the prayers, it's his second generation.
17:57So his father did the prayers for Nick Yusuf in the 60s.
18:01And then now he's doing it.
18:03And he said he will later pass it to his son, who is also a monk, who will be doing the prayers of Nick Yusuf's memorial every year.
18:10So usually it starts with the Buddhist chanting to bless the souls of Nick Yusuf as well as all the rest of the souls in that vicinity.
18:23And then normally a Malaysian student, this year was Mr. Nabil, who led the Talil prayers for Nick Yusuf.
18:31And then after that, we will just listen to a sort of like a short note by the Buddhist monk who will tell us about how Nick Yusuf is a very important part of their family, important part of the temple community.
18:47They are also volunteers that actually clean his, you know, grave every year.
18:53So it's a, it's a very, for me, it was a very, very touching moment.
18:57Every year is a touching moment because for, I mean, for a foreign, I mean, for me, it's just for a foreign person to actually do that.
19:06Right. And for me, it's also the sad thing that we don't talk about this whole, about this in Malaysia, but to see this happening like in Japan and how they actually take care of Nick Yusuf and his remains.
19:18It's a very touching feeling every day.
19:22There seems to be so much respect and care and consideration given to those who perished in the bombings.
19:30Can I, can I ask you why, Aaron, you think that we don't seem to know?
19:34I mean, in Malaysia, I, I, I speak for myself, but I'm sure there are many others like me who may not even realise there were Malaysian victims of the e-bom in Hiroshima.
19:44Why do you think this is a chapter missing or a gap in our, our collective consciousness, our collective history?
19:53I think it's because there is sensitivity, because it's sort of, so these, the victims of the a-bomb, atomic bombings in Malaysia is very much associated with the Japanese occupation, right? In Malaya.
20:08Um, because a lot of people ask how, why were they, how did they get the scholarship to study while the fellow Malaysians were sort of persecuted in Malaya.
20:20Um, but then, but that does not mean that we should not be remembering them as victims, uh, of atomic bombing, uh, because at the end of the day, they are local Malaysians or at least Malaysians then.
20:32Um, and they were such young boys that lost their lives at a very early age, especially in the case of Nick Yusuf and Syed Omar.
20:39Um, I think it's also important to understand that them pursuing their studies then should not be equated with how we currently get our scholarships in modern times, you know, because they were studying during the times of war.
20:54Right. And as the war got worse, uh, they had less food. They were also struggling themselves.
20:59Right. So there's a, there's an excerpt in a book published by, uh, Aoki Keiko on Nick Yusuf, right? That I mentioned earlier that documented how, um, Nick Yusuf, Syed Omar and Abdul Razak felt lonely as the war got worse and they were missing their families.
21:14So we have to remember that these boys were young teenagers who were far away from their families.
21:20And eventually the two of them lost their, their lives. Right. So I think their story, their story should serve as an important lesson, uh, that many people, especially Malaysians should be taking away.
21:32Um, I think this, uh, seminal moment of history serves as an important reminder, uh, that we have a direct relation in regards to the atomic bombings in Hiroshima,
21:42because it's no longer just about, oh, okay. Yeah. The atomic bomb was dropped in Hiroshima. Oh, it's just not that at all. I mean, now it affects us. Right.
21:52It's no longer just a case, um, of something that happened in a foreign country. Right. Uh, because we have two victims and one survivor from the A-bomb.
22:03Well, right. And actually, before we forget about the survivor, yeah, sorry. Yeah. Please continue.
22:08And that, I think, I think that narrative should be normalized. Um, and the dropping of the atomic bomb of Hiroshima isn't just another historical event, uh, but it's an event that took the lives,
22:18you have to remember, took the lives of two Malaysians or Malaysians. And it's about time we raise, we raise awareness about them, um, in addition to adding this piece of history in our collective memories.
22:29Yeah, for sure. Um, let, let's, let's learn more about Abdul Razak, Abdul Hamid, the survivor. What do you know of him?
22:36Okay. Well, Abdul Razak, um, or Razak Sensei, they call him, um, has been a very important person, actually, um, which you, everyone will be quite surprised.
22:48Um, so he survived the bombings with burns and bruises, uh, managed to make his way to Tokyo, uh, from Hiroshima. Um, so his journey took about 20 days from Hiroshima to Tokyo.
23:00Um, and upon, upon arrival in Tokyo, he was given a complete medical checkup and was told that he had a low white blood cell count.
23:09cell count. So he needed to a whole month to actually, uh, have injections in Tokyo to keep his white blood cells up stable.
23:18And then after three months, Abdul Razak, um, was called for a meeting with the occupying US Army.
23:25Then, uh, he was given two choices, whether he would want to continue his studies without a scholarship or go home.
23:31So, of course, he decided to return home. So, as he returned home, uh, he attended the Sultan Idris Training College, um, and qualified as a teacher in BM, Bahasa Melayu.
23:43Um, and despite being a BM teacher, um, he wanted to make sure that he didn't forget his Japanese language.
23:52So, what he did was he offered to teach the staff, staff at the Japanese Embassy, Bahasa Malaysia.
23:58So, he could also practice his Japanese, right?
24:02So, Abdul Razak later, uh, joined a Japanese school as a lecturer.
24:06And soon in 1982, this was the important one.
24:10He was actually entrusted with the task of leading the educational portfolio of Malaysia's Lukis policy by then Prime Minister Dr. Mahathir.
24:19And after the announcement of the Lukis policy, he was appointed the program head of the Japanese language intensive course in UITM.
24:27And this intensive course actually prepares Malaysian students with the Japanese language before they pursue their studies in Japan.
24:35So, he's an important person in, actually, our foreign policy, especially towards Japan.
24:40And he has continued his, I mean, before his death in July 2013 at the age of 88, he has served Malaysian-Japan relations so well, actually. So, yeah.
24:54Well, I'm so glad that you've brought this story to us, especially during this time when we should be thinking about people who have been so much part of the fabric of our history.
25:05How do you talk about this to young people of a younger generation who, uh, for whom the bombings feel so distant?
25:14It's a chapter in a textbook, you know, as you said, it happened so far away in a distant land.
25:20How do you talk to them to make sure that, um, not only do we learn the lessons from that time, but also, um, we continue on this.
25:32We, we don't forget, we, uh, continue on remembering the people who lost their lives, particularly those of our own, um, countrymen.
25:41Yeah, I think first there needs to be, um, I think there are stories, I think needs to be institutionalized first.
25:49Um, I think in a sense that the coverage of the Malaysian victims of the Hiroshima bombings, uh, should be included in detail in our history textbooks.
25:59Um, it is important that we now add these pieces of information in our textbooks.
26:05Well, I acknowledge that there is a small section actually in our form four history textbook that talks about Abdul Razak.
26:12It's so small that you might not even realize that it's actually there.
26:17So it's treated like an additional info, like, oh, info tambahan, this, you know, it's not, I think that should not be the case.
26:24It should be part of the core syllabus, right? When we talk about, um, Japanese occupation in Malaya and we had victims of the bombings, right?
26:34So, so that's Abdul Razak. So there's a small mention about him, but then again, there's no mention of Nick Yusof and Said Omar, uh, in our history textbooks.
26:43So their stories should be added, uh, in our history textbooks. So that's one. Second, um, well, okay, this is a bit, this might be uncomfortable for some people.
26:54But I think they should take it as a constructive criticism. Uh, because one thing that's disappointing sometimes is that when we Malaysians in Hiroshima attend the memorial of Nick Yusof,
27:04there are usually no representatives from the Malaysian embassy in Japan. So they come for the main, the overall memorial of the bombings, but they don't take their time to come to Nick Yusof's grave.
27:17Right. So I think that will make a difference in ensuring that the memories of these Malaysians live on. Um, I believe that they should set some time to come for the memorial because it's held every year on the same date at the same time.
27:31So they could actually schedule it, um, in and send a representative from the embassy to, to actually, for me is for them to, they need to show that the Malaysian government, all the Malaysian representatives are serious about this as well.
27:45Yeah. Because the, the monks, the temple committees, the volunteers are all, all taking their effort to actually organize this memorial service every year for Nick Yusof.
27:55So the least that we could do is we could send an official to attend it as well. And number three, I think the Malaysian government maybe should consider be doing a memorial in Malaysia.
28:06I think to recognize them. Um, so they should be recognized as victims of a deadly war, World War II. Um, because by doing this, at least Malaysians would remember their names, narratives and their stories.
28:17Right. Aaron, thank you so much for telling us their stories and for bringing them to our attention, bringing them home essentially during this time. I appreciate your time and your, um, attention and insight into this. I appreciate it. Thank you.
28:32Thank you so much. That's all the time we have for you on this episode of Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching and good night.
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