- 7 months ago
Humans enjoying the suffering of others is as old as the ancient Romans baying for blood when they would send in the lions at the Colosseum. Now though, the mob seems to have moved online. Just as Donald Trump threatens to slam nations that try to regulate the World Wide Web, France is coming to grips with last week's death of 46-year-old online personality Raphaël Graven, who went by the name of Jean Pormanove or JP. He died after 12 days of a marathon livestream where viewers were encouraged to contribute to keep the broadcast going.
We ask about the death of the streamer who earned a living by subjecting himself to verbal and sometimes physical abuse and about the platform where he broadcast: Curaçao-registered, Australian-based Kick, which was founded in 2022 after gaming platform Twitch tightened its moderation. In this case, the antics and abuse had been flagged. Yet after a brief suspension, the channel returned and the show went on. What does this story say about the world we live in? Read moreFrance to sue Australian platform Kick for 'negligence' after livestream death Is it about the profiteers or the otherwise ordinary people – mostly men – who watched, everyone from loners to football stars? Produced by Ilayda Habip, Aurore Laborie, Alessandro Xenos and Charles Wente.
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We ask about the death of the streamer who earned a living by subjecting himself to verbal and sometimes physical abuse and about the platform where he broadcast: Curaçao-registered, Australian-based Kick, which was founded in 2022 after gaming platform Twitch tightened its moderation. In this case, the antics and abuse had been flagged. Yet after a brief suspension, the channel returned and the show went on. What does this story say about the world we live in? Read moreFrance to sue Australian platform Kick for 'negligence' after livestream death Is it about the profiteers or the otherwise ordinary people – mostly men – who watched, everyone from loners to football stars? Produced by Ilayda Habip, Aurore Laborie, Alessandro Xenos and Charles Wente.
Visit our website:
http://www.france24.com
Like us on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English
Follow us on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/France24_en
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NewsTranscript
00:00Humans enjoying the suffering of others as well as old as the ancient Romans
00:06paying for blood when they'd send in the lions at the Colosseum.
00:09Now, though, the mob seems to have moved online.
00:13Just as Donald Trump threatens to slam nations that try to regulate the World Wide Web,
00:18France has come into grips with last week's death of a 46-year-old online personality,
00:24Raphael Graven, who went by the name of Jean Pormanov, J.P.
00:28He died after 12 days of a marathon livestream where viewers were encouraged to contribute to keep the broadcast going.
00:37We'll ask about the death of the streamer who earned a living by subjecting himself to verbal and sometimes physical abuse.
00:43Also, about the platform where he broadcast.
00:47Curaçao-registered Australian-based Kik, founded in 2022 after gaming platform Twitch tightened its moderation.
00:55In this case, the antics and abuse had been flagged already.
01:00Yet, after a brief suspension, the channel returned and the show went on.
01:05What does this story say about the world we live in today?
01:08Is it about the profiteers or the otherwise ordinary people, most of them men,
01:13who watched everyone from loners to football stars?
01:17Today, in the France 24 debate, we're talking about the outrage over the livestream death of Jean Pormanov.
01:26With us, Tech 24 host, Peter O'Brien.
01:29Thanks for being with us.
01:30Hi, François.
01:31Thanks as well to Jessica Galissaire, Senior Policy Researcher at the IT Think Tank Interface.
01:36Welcome to the show.
01:38Thanks for having me.
01:39From Oslo, clinical psychologist Evelyn Lidner, founding president of Human Dignity and Humiliations Studies Association.
01:47Thanks for joining us.
01:50Thank you for having me.
01:52And from Rotterdam, Daniel Trottier, Associate Professor in the Department of Media and Communications at Erasmus University.
01:58Welcome to the show.
02:01You can always, by the way, listen, like and subscribe to the France 24 debate wherever podcasts are streamed.
02:08Yeah, the French state already had a criminal probe open against the two live streamers who would regularly abuse GP.
02:15Now it's announced this Tuesday it's weighing a case against the platforms that host their channel.
02:21Let's begin with a recap by Antonia Kerrigan.
02:24After months of physical violence and humiliation on the Le Locale group's kick channel, 298 hours into a live stream,
02:35one of the group's other members reached for a bottle to throw at Jean Pormanov to wake him up.
02:41But the 46-year-old streamer had died in his sleep.
02:44Authorities have come under fire for failure to prevent the months of violence in plain sight.
02:49The death of Jean Pormanov and the violence he was subjected to are absolutely horrific.
02:56My condolences are with his family and his friends.
03:00Jean Pormanov was humiliated and mistreated for months during live streams on the platform Kik.
03:07The group consisted of Pormanov, a former soldier, Kudu, who has disabilities,
03:12and the two ringleaders, Naruto and Safine.
03:15The latter two came under investigation after website Mediapart shone a light on the channel last December.
03:22They were briefly taken into custody in January.
03:24But after both Pormanov and Kudu refused to undergo medical or psychiatric evaluations
03:30and told investigators they were participating freely in an enterprise Pormanov said was making him up to €6,000 a month,
03:37the streams continued on the platform Kik.
03:40The platform Kik has a reputation as a bit of a Wild West
03:45and also an El Dorado for streamers who no longer have a place on other platforms.
03:54Kik posted to X that they were deeply saddened by Pormanov's death,
03:59promising to cooperate fully with the authorities
04:01and undertake a full overhaul of their French-language content,
04:04also banning the rest of the local group from the platform pending the results of the investigation.
04:11And since we filed that report, Peter O'Brien, we've had a preliminary autopsy,
04:17no sign of physical abuse, but there's still further tests and results to come.
04:23Yeah, that's right.
04:23The autopsy has revealed no apparent direct harm done by a third party.
04:29However, that's not to say that he was not the victim of any abuse or any violence, right?
04:36That's not what it means.
04:37They're going to do further studies, toxicological and other medical studies,
04:44to show whether his existing symptoms, for instance, he had thyroid problems,
04:53he also had heart problems.
04:55As these have been reported, whether these were exacerbated in some way.
05:00One of the things he was made to do on stream was ingest potentially toxic material.
05:08So they're still studying the potential medical causes of his death.
05:14What is more surprising in this story, the cruelty inflicted upon him,
05:20or the fact that people paid to keep this marathon live stream going?
05:25I think, as you pointed out in your intro there, perhaps if we look at the history of humanity,
05:30it's not exactly surprising that people will enter a kind of almost cult-like mindset
05:37around violence directed towards people.
05:40Well, it goes back to antiquity.
05:42We have, even in modern technology, phases of this kind of thing happening as soon as each technology comes along, right?
05:51So there was a famous case in the 90s with a Japanese TV show where a guy was sent to the brink of starvation,
05:59and he was trapped live streamed in a similar kind of way and would have to kind of complete certain magazine challenges to even get food sent to him.
06:11And we therefore, then when we had radio, when radio was fairly unregulated,
06:15we used to have the kind of public humiliation that was carried out here.
06:20So you could say it's another example of a kind of people banding around wanting to watch violence inflicted on other people.
06:32However, that doesn't mean it's not shocking.
06:34And to see it happening in such a blatant way, and with such a lack of action taken by the police specifically,
06:43we know that they intervened in the very room or at least the house where these facts were taking place five times in recent months.
06:54We know that they interviewed the victims and the perpetrators of this violence and did not take any sanctions.
07:04So that to me is what's shocking.
07:06Of course, it's shocking to see the kind of violence that we saw, the slappings, hittings,
07:11the fact that he was locked in a boot of a car and driven over speed bumps.
07:17He was shot at with paintball guns.
07:18And a lot of this was for financial, you know, a result of people's donations.
07:24You could donate so that he would clean up other people's crap in the toilets.
07:30You could donate so that he would slap the other poor fellow who was a victim of this,
07:37Kudu, the mentally disabled victim in this case.
07:41It's just shocking.
07:44It's just shocking.
07:44It doesn't make it any less surprising that this happens again and again,
07:49and it doesn't make it any easier to watch and hear about,
07:52even though we know that this kind of stuff has gone on throughout history.
07:56Two of the streamers, as you say, bullied.
07:59Two of the streamers, the bullyers.
08:01The lawyer for one of them, 23-year-old Safin Hamadi, claiming that some of what the viewers saw was in fact scripted,
08:09a bit like pro wrestling.
08:11Once again, we're dealing with videos that I personally don't like, but they had their audience.
08:18It's what's now called trash streaming.
08:20And what works best, according to my clients and the feedback that we received,
08:24because this case is widely discussed,
08:26is that the more violent the content on screen, the better it performed.
08:30These streamers understood that very well.
08:33What was expected of them was violence, and that's why he was the most targeted,
08:37even though they were all sometimes victims of violence.
08:40JP was the one being subjected to such violence, sometimes even announced in advance.
08:44People would send encouragements, even donations,
08:47and the reactions became increasingly widespread.
08:49Jessica Galicia, a work accident, people pointing,
08:57I mean, earlier I went on Telegram where they have these group chats,
09:00and some of them saying, yeah, JP was, you know, paid 6,000 euros a month, they claim.
09:07Or is this something more sorted?
09:10No, I think it's definitely surprising,
09:13and I couldn't agree more with what was just said before,
09:16that the police investigation didn't go actually further,
09:19because, as you said, they intervened four or five times in the house
09:23where the violence was taking place.
09:25And then one of the biggest arguments that is put forward
09:29is that he consented to the violence that was inflicted upon him.
09:33But from what I've read about the case,
09:36apparently in some of the latest streams that he took part in,
09:40it wasn't so clear.
09:42At some point, he was forced to say that if something happens,
09:45it's not the fault of the acts he is being inflicted upon.
09:50So it's, I don't want to investigate, you know, in the place of the police,
09:55but there's, I think, definitely something to be dig in this regard
09:59as to how, what maneuver did he have exactly,
10:06and was it really a free choice, or was he forced in a way?
10:10Because I think in one of the streams, he mentions, like,
10:13he feels like he's trapped and he doesn't have a choice anymore.
10:16So, of course, if they have this kind of hold over him,
10:19and it's his only source of income,
10:23and the other person also was handicapped,
10:26so they, the two bullies, as you call them,
10:29they obviously targeted vulnerable people.
10:33So I think there's, the investigation should tell more about this
10:36in the coming days.
10:37To me, it's not a work accident, definitely.
10:41Evelyn Lindner, what is this about?
10:44Is it about what happened during the live stream,
10:49or is it about the viewers who paid to keep this live stream going?
10:54I think it is a combination.
10:58It comes, two factors come together.
11:03As was said before, we have had experiences of cruelty,
11:11culturally sanctioned cruelty in history.
11:14You are in Paris now, and cats were being burnt alive.
11:19I think those who have studied history do know
11:23that in the 17th century, cats were associated with the devil,
11:29and it was in joy to burn them alive.
11:32And so it was sanctioned cruelty.
11:35And we could say that we are, we can be very thankful
11:38that we as humanity have moved out of that.
11:42What we see now is, you could say,
11:44economically sanctioned cruelty.
11:46And again, we are at a place where we have the responsibility
11:52to move out of that.
11:54You talk about sort of a progress of humanity.
11:57We don't burn cats in Paris anymore as a spectator sport.
12:03But is that progress of humanity now perhaps reversing?
12:08Because people watch things that are virtual,
12:11and lines get blurred between what's acceptable and what's not.
12:16Yes, I think what is needed is awareness of humiliation
12:22and how explosive it is, how explosive it has become.
12:28And there is a paradox there.
12:31Human rights ideals of equal dignity
12:33intensify feelings of humiliation.
12:38Many people are not aware of that,
12:40how much feelings of humiliation have become more explosive.
12:44I call feelings of humiliation the nuclear bomb of the emotions.
12:50And you might say, oh, how come that human rights ideals
12:55of equal dignity for all can increase humiliation?
13:00Yes.
13:01If you, and there, it might be now not the time to explain how it happens.
13:07It happens that if you expect to be treated as equal,
13:13as part of a human family where everyone is equal,
13:17and then you are being,
13:18your dignity is being, your equal dignity is being violated,
13:22then the feeling of humiliation is much, much, much more intensive,
13:27more painful than in the past when you could say,
13:31oh, it's nature's order that I'm being mistreated,
13:34or it's God's will or something like that.
13:36So we live in new times where a new awareness of the explosivity
13:42of feelings of humiliation is needed.
13:45It's also mob rule to a certain degree, right?
13:48Because the people who are paying to watch this,
13:51some of them said they were rooting for Jipe,
13:53but most were kind of egging on the acts of humiliation
14:00that we've been talking about.
14:04The internet is made up of so-called communities.
14:07Are these communities, in fact, mobs?
14:13Yes.
14:14It could be called like that.
14:17And again, it is a kind of economically sanctioned
14:23and intensified working out and inciting humiliation.
14:31It's humiliation entrepreneurship, I call it that.
14:35Humiliation entrepreneurship to use the vulnerability of people
14:42and the strength of these feelings.
14:45These feelings are so strong,
14:47and therefore it is so profitable to show them.
14:51So this profitability is being used.
14:54And so it is humiliation entrepreneurship.
15:00And what I see in this case is that this humiliation entrepreneurship
15:05is happening everywhere.
15:07And this case now is kind of the cannery in the coal mine
15:13because we see this kind of humiliation entrepreneurship
15:16more and more everywhere in our societies on all levels.
15:21So this is just one example.
15:23And it is extremely important to, from my point of view,
15:28to learn, to be aware of first the fact that humiliation
15:32is extremely explosive now, the feelings.
15:35Therefore, they are so profitable.
15:37And that our economic interests heighten them further.
15:43And this is, I think, a path that is extremely dangerous for society.
15:47And this particular case is just one case.
15:51So, Daniel Trottier, you just heard there, Evelyn Lindner,
15:55scapegoating is in.
15:57It's a trend.
15:58Why is that such a trend in the digital age?
16:02Yeah, I think just given all the different sort of humiliations
16:10to pick up on this keyword and crises and struggles
16:13that people are facing in any context,
16:16we're looking at this and we're looking for some sort of blame,
16:20someone to hold accountable,
16:22either directly if we're denouncing someone,
16:25but also just to, and I'm not a psychologist,
16:28but just to sort of sublimate those feelings and find an easy target.
16:33So, if we're looking at the 500,000 people who are spectating this,
16:38we can't put ourselves in their heads and speculate what they were going through.
16:43But in a lot of cases, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that many of them,
16:47yeah, were also sort of suffering themselves.
16:50And this, you know, was a way to kind of, yeah, find an appropriate target.
16:56Well, let me ask you about this,
16:57because forensics on who was among those watching
17:00has turned up some startling revelations.
17:03They were past cameos by star footballer Adil Ramy,
17:07Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang, and Bradley Barkola,
17:12the latter two still active footballers,
17:14one for Marseille, the other for Paris Saint-Germain.
17:18Are they, they just see this as entertainment, Daniel Trottier?
17:22I know you're not in their heads, but what does that tell you?
17:25I think this is the exact moment of reckoning
17:30when I would hope that nobody who's watching this live stream
17:35was anticipating or hoping that it would end this way.
17:38But now looking back on it,
17:40whether we're talking about these particular athletes,
17:45any of the other, you know, 499,000 people who are involved,
17:49yeah, have to ask themselves, how did it get to this point?
17:53And why are we deriving enjoyment out of this?
17:57So, yeah, I think we have to acknowledge
18:00that the audience is active in that sense,
18:03that they can either reward or report this kind of footage.
18:08At the same time, people don't always respond rationally
18:11when they're looking at something
18:13that's either upsetting or even traumatizing.
18:16I really recommend people go and check out the great work
18:18that Mediaparte has done on this,
18:20one of the articles they put out.
18:21The news outlet that first blew the whistle.
18:23Yeah, fantastic French investigative outlet.
18:26They put out an article where they interview
18:28some of the regular people who have watched for many years,
18:32Juppé, and have donated to the stream.
18:34And the takeaway that I got from that article is
18:37they are deluded.
18:38They are completely deluded.
18:40It's almost like they're in a cult, right?
18:42They speak along the lines of,
18:43you couldn't possibly understand
18:45unless you're part of the in-group.
18:47And I can only think of these people,
18:50young men, a lot of them,
18:51as perhaps having been bullied themselves.
18:54And this is their way of kind of getting their own back on someone else.
18:57Well, because you watch for hours and hours
19:00and it becomes familiar.
19:02And it feels like,
19:03even though you're not on the other side of the screen,
19:05that you're kind of part of the community,
19:07part of the family even.
19:08Yeah, and I think for most people,
19:11for most of us,
19:12we find it shocking to look at this kind of footages.
19:16But it's also a realization of the communities that are out there.
19:21And for instance,
19:21I just learned two days ago
19:23that some people pay to see some child's sexual abuse material
19:28and for some child to be abducted and raped online.
19:32And some people also pay.
19:33A live stream?
19:34Yeah, and watch these kind of things.
19:36And the kids are being exploited in very poor countries,
19:39sometimes in poor families that don't have,
19:42you know, it's a very critical situation.
19:45And we, as I don't want to say normal people,
19:49but people who find this kind of situation shocking,
19:52we don't realize that all this exists,
19:55but there is an audience for this.
19:57And I think it's tragic, of course,
20:00but at least it's a realization that this is...
20:03And what?
20:03It's because we live in an age where it's easy for people
20:07who are very radical or very deviant
20:11to connect with one another thanks to the internet?
20:15Probably.
20:16I don't want to enter the debate of the question we hear often,
20:20should we blame the real world or the digital world?
20:22But the internet is definitely an enabler
20:25because it connects audiences much faster than it did before.
20:31And yeah, people can talk to each other,
20:34connect more easily,
20:35and things get viral much more faster as well.
20:38And here, I think it was the most viewed channel in France on Kik.
20:42So it tells a lot.
20:44Yeah, live streaming comes from gaming
20:46and improbably long viewer-funded online events,
20:50by the way, are not always nefarious.
20:53Take, for instance, Drive My Bus.
20:56It's a very simple video game
20:58where you pretend to drive a bus across a continent
21:02in real time.
21:03Not very much happens except stopping, I guess, for fuel and food.
21:08Users, in this case, this is one from last year,
21:10were encouraged, you see the number of how much money
21:12has been raised, to cough up, to keep the ride going,
21:16the proceeds going to the Petit Prince charity
21:18that helps sick children, Peter O'Brien.
21:22So, again, these long-format live-streamed events,
21:28a bit akin to when cable news channels
21:32had reality TV shows on all night in the 2000s.
21:37If only people still watched cable news
21:40rather than these live streams,
21:41we'd be doing a lot better business.
21:42But, no, of course, there are millions and millions of people
21:45who watch these streams around the world.
21:46It gives them a sense of belonging.
21:48It makes them feel understood.
21:49They get to watch, maybe they're at work, right,
21:52or at school or something else,
21:53and they want to watch people play a game
21:55that they like and have heard of, right?
21:57Yeah, there are many, many good things
21:59on these channels, right?
22:01Like, Kik is particularly badly regulated.
22:04We know that.
22:04It's emerged as a kind of bit of a toxic alternative
22:08to Twitch because it is so unregulated.
22:10And I should say, by the way,
22:12founded by the co-founders of a gambling website
22:16called Steak.
22:18So, the primary vehicle of Kik,
22:20once it started out,
22:22was to drive more people to gamble
22:24on the website Steak.
22:25So, many red flags there to begin with.
22:28Of course, there are positive communities
22:30on these things.
22:30But also, we should look out
22:32for when these positive aspects
22:33are co-opted by nefarious actors.
22:37So, what did we also see on Jipe's stream?
22:40We saw charitable fundraisers.
22:44So, at points, people could donate
22:46to give money to various charities.
22:47And it legitimizes them,
22:49and it makes them look like they're running,
22:51you know, at first glance,
22:54this is the kind of stuff that's promoted.
22:56And this is...
22:56But it really only took a few hours
22:58to watch to really understand
23:00what was going on.
23:01And the fact that so many average people
23:05don't understand these entire worlds
23:08of streaming and of gaming,
23:10that's what's really worrying.
23:11It's a problem of understanding.
23:12And you saw it there in the transcript
23:13or the clip of the gendarme who came in
23:16and at one point...
23:18They were prank called, right?
23:19Well, so, there were a few different instances.
23:21So, the viewers prank called
23:23so that the gendarmes would show up
23:25and they could get a kick out
23:27of seeing the gendarmes show up
23:28after they were the ones who made the prank call.
23:29That wasn't all of the times.
23:31It's something called SWATing
23:33and it comes from American streaming.
23:35So, the idea is you'd call the SWAT force,
23:37you know, the American armed police,
23:39by pretending there was some sort of,
23:41you know, terrorism or violence going on.
23:43And then they'd knock down the door
23:44and everyone watching could have a big laugh
23:46because the police would come in
23:47and interrupt the stream.
23:48Except for the SWAT team,
23:49which has other things to do.
23:50Right.
23:51So, the police, in this instance,
23:52the French police came in,
23:54you know, didn't knock the door down,
23:55but they went into the room
23:56where they were streaming.
23:57And one of them says, you know,
23:58can you please tell your,
23:59I don't know how to call them,
24:00you know, followers,
24:01that they're being silly,
24:02we've got other things to do.
24:04And even in the way he said that,
24:06it kind of betrays a misunderstanding
24:08among the average people,
24:09people trying to do their jobs,
24:10like the police,
24:12as to what these platforms are
24:14and what kind of thing really goes on on them.
24:16All right, that brings us to the question
24:17of what, how to regulate it.
24:19And there's a legal precedent, by the way,
24:21for shutting down spectacles of abuse
24:23here in France,
24:24even when the abused,
24:26once again, is complicit.
24:281995, a short person lost his case
24:31before the Council of State
24:32to keep his job as the fodder
24:34for so-called dwarf tossing contests.
24:37He insisted it was his livelihood,
24:39but the Council of State,
24:40France's highest administrative court,
24:43ruled that the respect of human dignity
24:45is part of the makeup of public order,
24:49the respect of human dignity
24:52as a legal right that should be enshrined.
24:58Your thoughts on that, Evelyn Lindner?
25:01Yes, I'm all for that.
25:04I think this is what is needed
25:05because at the moment,
25:08I think we have economic systems
25:10systems that are not dignity,
25:16that don't prioritize dignity.
25:18And this is what we need very, very easily.
25:21We need, we cannot regulate
25:23against this profit motive.
25:26We cannot regulate against it.
25:28At the moment, I think it's too strong.
25:31And just the regulations always are too late
25:34and too little.
25:35And there will always be loopholes
25:37because there is so much money
25:39to be made there.
25:41So the regulations will never be enough.
25:44And it's not just in the case
25:45of digital humiliation or whatever.
25:49It's all over in our societies.
25:52So the only way is really
25:54to make economic systems
25:55that prioritize the respect
25:58for human dignity.
25:59Not just for human dignity,
26:01the dignity for all living beings.
26:02That link between human dignity,
26:05again, in that 1995 ruling,
26:07and public order.
26:09Can you explain that to us?
26:10It depends on what you mean
26:16by public order and human dignity.
26:19You have, basically,
26:21you have two groups of people.
26:24Some people would say
26:25humiliation is needed
26:27to make public order.
26:30In the past, we had that.
26:32Humiliation was routinely employed
26:34to keep hierarchical societies stable
26:38and in place.
26:39So we live now,
26:41this is what I meant by the way
26:45that human rights ideals
26:48of equal dignity
26:49revolutionize our thinking.
26:52Now, you and I and all of us,
26:54we would think,
26:55no, routine humiliation
26:56is not a way
26:58to stabilize hierarchies.
27:00No, we want different kinds of societies
27:04where equal dignity
27:06is respected,
27:08where dignity is defined
27:10as equal dignity for all.
27:12So this is the transition
27:14in which we live globally.
27:17In all societies,
27:19we live in this transition.
27:20And this is a transition
27:22that has pitfalls
27:23pitfalls and humiliation
27:24is one of the big,
27:25big pitfalls there.
27:28Daniel Trottier,
27:29is it mission impossible
27:30to uphold that respect
27:34for dignity when you're online?
27:37Things like the WhatsApp,
27:39when you're in a chat group,
27:40there's always in and out behavior.
27:43It's always about who's in
27:45and who's out very quickly.
27:49How do you codify
27:50this human dignity?
27:53Yeah, I think
27:56if you were to ban
27:57a platform like Kik
27:59and then GP couldn't get
28:01his 6,000 euros a month
28:03and you sort of do away
28:04with that sense of duress,
28:05you also have to ensure
28:07that people have access
28:09to dignity
28:09in a much more general sense
28:11so that they're not forced
28:12to do this.
28:14I think in terms of the online,
28:16you know, spaces like WhatsApp
28:18and otherwise,
28:19yeah, you have in groups
28:21and out groups,
28:22you have exclusion,
28:23you have shaming,
28:24sometimes for good reason
28:25against things like animal cruelty,
28:27against child sexual abuse.
28:30But I think when we look
28:31at this case,
28:33we have to ensure
28:34that we can look back
28:35on this as a low point
28:37in platform,
28:39yeah, development.
28:41So now that the cat
28:44is out of the proverbial bag,
28:45this is out of the dark web,
28:46I don't want to focus too much
28:48on, you know,
28:49the person himself,
28:51but on this case
28:52as something that,
28:53you know,
28:54we're able to teach
28:55and prepare people
28:56how to, yeah,
28:57how to react
28:58when they see,
28:59yeah, cases like this.
29:02And by the way,
29:02here in France,
29:03there's still an argument
29:04over whether authorities
29:06can react.
29:06The head of the French
29:08broadcast and online regulator
29:10on Sunday
29:10claimed that the ARCOM,
29:13that's our equivalent
29:15of Ofcom or the FCC,
29:18did not have the authority
29:19to block
29:20Jean Pormenave's online channel
29:22because the channel
29:23was hosted
29:23by an Australian platform
29:24which has no representation
29:26in France.
29:27Now though,
29:28this Tuesday,
29:29the digital affairs minister
29:30saying she'll be going
29:31after Kik
29:32for, quote,
29:33breaching the French law
29:34and digital trust.
29:38I believe Kik
29:39did not do everything
29:40in its power
29:40to stop the spread
29:41of dangerous content.
29:43So we're going ahead
29:44with this legal action
29:45and we will make sure
29:46all the services involved
29:48fulfill their duties
29:49as quickly as possible.
29:50As you know,
29:51an investigation is underway
29:52and we're monitoring
29:53the situation very closely.
29:58But Jessica Gelliser,
30:00we're sitting in France,
30:01Kik is in Australia.
30:03Is that just an empty promise
30:05by a politician
30:06we just heard?
30:07It depends on
30:08which authorities
30:09exactly go after Kik
30:11and what,
30:12if it's a court prosecution.
30:15I think things have a chance
30:17of going forward.
30:18As to does ARCOM
30:20has competence over this,
30:22no.
30:23The president of ARCOM
30:24is right when he says
30:26that the platform
30:27is hosted in Australia
30:28and according to
30:29the Digital Services Act,
30:30which puts obligations
30:32on platforms.
30:33This is Europe's
30:34online regulation.
30:35At EU level,
30:36the GSA,
30:38it's not one
30:40of the biggest platforms
30:41so it's not overseen
30:42by the European Commission.
30:44And so France
30:46doesn't have
30:46either competence over it
30:48because it's not
30:48hosted in France.
30:49But they were supposed
30:50to appoint a legal representative
30:52in one of the EU member states.
30:54A few days ago,
30:56they said they appointed
30:58one in Malta.
30:59But apparently,
31:00when asked,
31:01the Maltese authorities
31:02said they never received
31:04such a notification.
31:06So it's a bit blurry
31:07for now
31:08as to who is responsible
31:09and whether they actually
31:11have a legal representative.
31:12And if there is none,
31:13if there's none in Malta
31:14or anywhere else
31:15in the 27,
31:16what do we do?
31:17What do the French authorities do?
31:18Then I guess
31:19they're in breach
31:20of the GSA for a start.
31:22And so perhaps
31:22the EU can act also
31:24on this level.
31:25But the French authorities,
31:27to me,
31:27it could only go forward
31:28if it's some kind
31:29of legal action
31:30in breach of the French law,
31:32not the GSA.
31:33And the Supreme Court
31:34in Paris
31:34has opened their own investigation,
31:36which tells me
31:36that they've looked
31:37at the footage finally
31:38and decided that it's
31:39worthy of investigating.
31:40Because let's be honest,
31:43when you see the footage,
31:44you think the police,
31:45the justice system
31:46can and should deal with this.
31:48For some reason,
31:49the Nice prosecutors
31:49didn't get around
31:51to acting before
31:52Jipe died.
31:53But hopefully,
31:55there could be
31:55some justice.
31:56Despite there being,
31:57again,
31:57an open criminal investigation.
31:59And this brings us
31:59to what you alluded to earlier.
32:01If you follow the money,
32:02it goes far,
32:04well, very far.
32:05Kik itself doesn't make
32:07a lot of money,
32:07it claims.
32:08But it helps promote
32:09its parent company
32:10that Peter was referring to,
32:11Stake,
32:12founded by 29-year-old
32:13Australian Ed Craven
32:15and 30-year-old
32:16Iranian-American
32:17Bijan Tehrani.
32:18They met,
32:19well,
32:19online gaming
32:20a decade ago.
32:21They met
32:22and they built
32:24an online gambling site
32:25that uses crypto
32:27and counts among
32:29its ambassadors
32:29the likes of
32:30Canadian rapper
32:31Drake
32:31and masculinist streamer
32:34Aidan Ross.
32:36What does this tell you,
32:38Peter?
32:38What it tells you,
32:38if you need to get any,
32:40if maybe you're an investigator
32:41out there,
32:41you want to,
32:42you know,
32:42dig up something juicy
32:43on any potentially
32:44dodgy companies,
32:45just look at who's
32:46sponsoring F1 each year.
32:48You know,
32:49we saw their
32:49Kik Sauber team.
32:51Stake is a big partner
32:53as well.
32:54No, but...
32:54And we showed
32:55that front page of Forbes.
32:56They didn't seem
32:57to be dissing
32:58the co-founders.
32:59They seem to be
33:00hailing them
33:01as a success story.
33:02Yeah.
33:02I mean,
33:03and also the fact
33:03that Drake
33:04and Aidan Ross
33:05are now,
33:05have now offered
33:06so kindly
33:07to sponsor the,
33:08sponsor the funeral
33:09of Juppé
33:09leaves a bit
33:11of a bitter taste
33:11in the mouth
33:12when you know
33:13that Drake
33:13is a stakeholder
33:14in Kik.
33:15So,
33:15I mean,
33:16the whole thing
33:16is just reputation
33:17management,
33:18isn't it?
33:20Reputation management.
33:21Your thoughts on this?
33:22Daniel Trottier,
33:23how strong a case
33:25can the French build
33:26and what is it
33:27about this link
33:28between this platform,
33:31crypto,
33:33gambling?
33:36I could speculate
33:37that a lot of the people
33:39watching this
33:40probably blew a lot
33:41of money
33:42on crypto
33:43and gambling
33:44and were deriving
33:45some enjoyment
33:46from this,
33:46but I think
33:47just though,
33:48yeah,
33:49the magnitude
33:49in terms of
33:50the amount
33:50of viewers,
33:52the amount
33:53of months
33:53that this went
33:54on and the outcome
33:55means that,
33:57yeah,
33:57I think regardless
33:58of legal frameworks
34:00or what's permitted,
34:01I think,
34:02yeah,
34:02the French authorities
34:03really need to
34:05deliver a message
34:06in terms of,
34:07yeah,
34:07this was a low point
34:08and it should remain
34:09a low point
34:10and,
34:11you know,
34:12not starting a precedent.
34:13Now,
34:14while the French
34:15tried to build a case
34:16against the platform
34:17domiciled
34:17on the other side
34:18of the planet,
34:19the President
34:20of the United States
34:21on Monday
34:21put out a post
34:22on his social medium,
34:24Truth Social,
34:26in which he said
34:27he put all countries
34:28with digital taxes,
34:31legislation,
34:31rules,
34:32or regulations
34:33on notice
34:34that unless
34:36they're removed,
34:36I will impose
34:37substantial additional
34:39tariffs
34:39and institute
34:40export restrictions
34:41on our highly
34:42protected technology
34:43and chips,
34:44show respect
34:45to America
34:46and our amazing
34:46tech companies,
34:47or consider
34:48the consequences,
34:50exclamation point.
34:52Jessica Gadiser,
34:55Europe,
34:55which needs
34:55the United States
34:57to not drop
34:58its support
34:59for Ukraine,
35:00we've seen
35:02that they've
35:03already made
35:04a lot of concessions
35:05when it comes
35:06to already
35:07trade negotiations.
35:10Is the DSA
35:11in danger?
35:11Is it under threat?
35:13I don't think so.
35:14From the previous
35:15negotiations,
35:16what comes out of it
35:17is that it's not
35:19up for negotiation,
35:20and I think
35:21it's actually
35:21a very good test
35:23for the EU
35:24at the moment
35:25to see
35:26if it actually
35:27has the means
35:27to uphold
35:28its own rules
35:29that you just adopted.
35:30The DSA
35:31is two years old.
35:32It's been enforced
35:33since just over
35:34a year and a half.
35:35So I would like
35:37at least to see
35:38a strong stance
35:38from the EU,
35:40and when Donald Trump
35:41says we'll impose
35:43tariffs or we will
35:44put restrictions
35:45on visas
35:45for the EU officials
35:46that are in charge
35:48of this regulation,
35:50the EU should be
35:51in a position
35:51to say,
35:52so what?
35:53They should be,
35:54but will they?
35:56It's a complex
35:57situation because
35:57it's mixed with
35:58all the political
35:59and geopolitical tensions,
36:01and so it's
36:02a much broader topic,
36:03and I think
36:04the problem here
36:05is the dependence
36:05from the EU
36:06on the US,
36:08and so I think
36:09if we want to be able
36:10to stand up
36:11to the US
36:12at some point,
36:13it will take
36:14years and years,
36:15but Europe
36:16needs to be independent
36:17from the United States,
36:19including defense-wise,
36:22because I think
36:24it's one of the first time
36:25that this tech policy
36:27is up for negotiations
36:29because we're not independent,
36:32so it's a huge problem.
36:34Daniel Trottier,
36:35the whole panel
36:36is unanimous here
36:37that this is something
36:39that's glaringly wrong,
36:41that this live stream
36:43was able to happen.
36:45There are prosecutors
36:47trying to do something
36:48about it
36:48under public pressure.
36:49again,
36:51will Donald Trump
36:53save the day
36:53for Kik
36:54by saying,
36:55don't you dare
36:56try to go after,
36:58try to go for
36:58more tech regulation?
37:01I mean,
37:02this extended period
37:03of abuse
37:04is indefensible.
37:05I don't even think
37:05Donald Trump
37:06could spin it
37:08in a way
37:08that would make it
37:09the least bit palatable,
37:10or, yeah,
37:11I mean,
37:11certainly not him.
37:13Peter O'Brien.
37:15Do I think
37:15Trump will defend Kik?
37:16No,
37:17it's not an American.
37:18No, not Kik itself,
37:19but the idea
37:20will Trump
37:22double down
37:23against
37:24any attempts
37:25to put a legal framework
37:27on this?
37:27Yeah,
37:28but also,
37:28you've got to remember
37:29he is under,
37:30he will be under pressure
37:31from his allies,
37:33the tech bosses
37:33in the US
37:34who are harmed
37:35by sanctions
37:36on European technology users
37:38because guess what?
37:39They're using American tech,
37:40so if you make it
37:41more difficult
37:42for them to use
37:43American technology services,
37:45American technology companies
37:46are going to be harmed.
37:48All right,
37:48and at this point
37:49in time,
37:50there's always going
37:51to be some other platform.
37:54In the case of Kik,
37:55it's because the regulation
37:57came to Twitch,
37:58the popular online gaming site.
38:01So,
38:01is it always a losing battle
38:04or are we finally
38:05beginning to understand,
38:07the panel here
38:09has talked about
38:09how authorities
38:10didn't quite understand
38:11what they were up against
38:12in the case of GP.
38:13are they beginning
38:15to grasp it?
38:16Will it become
38:17easier to regulate?
38:18I think what's interesting
38:20is that this happened
38:21in France.
38:22We don't speak enough
38:24about regulation
38:24of these platforms
38:25and languages
38:26other than English
38:27and it's very telling
38:28that we've had this happen
38:30on a Australian,
38:34so, you know,
38:35primarily English language platform,
38:36but in French
38:37where Kik itself
38:39has admitted
38:40they weren't doing enough
38:41to oversee
38:42what was going on
38:43in French.
38:44I think this happens
38:46time and time again
38:47where niche alternatives
38:49to mainstream platforms,
38:50you know,
38:51run into scandals
38:52in languages
38:53other than English
38:53and it's just another reason
38:55why we should be looking
38:56at tech stories
38:57not just in America
38:59but here in Europe
39:00even though I'm at risk
39:01of plugging
39:01our work
39:03here at France 24
39:04but I do think
39:06it's time the world
39:07paid a bit more notice
39:08as to what goes on
39:09outside of the US.
39:11And there are
39:12deeper questions,
39:14Evelyn Linder,
39:14that are being asked
39:16the numbers of hours
39:18that we spend
39:19scrolling,
39:21attempts by
39:22countries like Australia
39:24to ban social media
39:27for people
39:28under the age of 16,
39:30the fact that
39:31on Twitch itself
39:32there was a study
39:33that came out
39:34last year
39:34that showed
39:35that nearly half
39:36the people
39:36who are on it
39:38suffer from
39:38they say
39:39from increased loneliness.
39:41Again,
39:42it's been now
39:44more than
39:46nearly two decades
39:47that these social media
39:48have become mainstream.
39:50Are we beginning
39:51to tackle
39:51these issues
39:52of how it's affecting
39:54our psyche?
39:57I think
39:58the loneliness epidemic
40:01that we have
40:03in Western
40:03individualistic
40:06societies,
40:07this loneliness
40:08epidemic
40:09would be there
40:11also without
40:11the digital world
40:13and the digital world
40:14is a rescue
40:16for lonely people.
40:18And again,
40:20it's the economic systems
40:23that do that to us
40:26and we need
40:28global action.
40:29As you discussed,
40:30you said,
40:31what can France do?
40:33France being dependent
40:34on the US,
40:35the US will change
40:37someday
40:38and France
40:39can go
40:40in,
40:42be a model.
40:44I think
40:45we all,
40:46we need to
40:47hold
40:49human dignity
40:50and the dignity
40:51of all living beings
40:52as a beacon
40:53for the future
40:56to hold it
40:57as much
40:58as we can.
40:59And this would
41:00also answer
41:01to the loneliness
41:02epidemic.
41:04The loneliness
41:05epidemic,
41:06there is this element,
41:08Daniel Trottier,
41:09though,
41:09of the fact
41:11that you get
41:12drawn in
41:13to the virtual world.
41:15If you're
41:16lonely
41:17or vulnerable,
41:19you're
41:19easier prey.
41:22Absolutely.
41:24We can talk
41:25about these
41:25live streams,
41:26podcasts,
41:27et cetera,
41:27as windows
41:28to the world
41:29or as friendship
41:30simulations.
41:32So you have
41:33to kind of focus
41:33on the content
41:34itself,
41:35the effect
41:35it has on us,
41:36the dopamine hit,
41:37but you also
41:38have to step
41:38back and think
41:40about the
41:41kind of circumstances
41:42that lead people
41:43to be in front
41:44of these screens,
41:44to scroll
41:45through this content
41:46on such a
41:48multi-hour
41:50per day basis.
41:51So if you pull
41:52the thread,
41:53you see it's
41:53a much bigger
41:54problem.
41:54We talked about
41:55the loneliness
41:56epidemic,
41:57Donald Trump,
41:58trade wars.
41:59It's obviously
42:00a much bigger
42:01issue.
42:02Jessica Galissaire,
42:04which is it?
42:05Is it a window
42:06on the world
42:07or is it a
42:08friendship simulator,
42:09as Daniel was saying?
42:12It's a very hard
42:14question to answer.
42:16It's obviously both.
42:17But I think
42:18at some point,
42:19we will definitely
42:19need to tackle
42:20the issue
42:21of the business
42:22models of these
42:23platforms.
42:23Same goes for
42:24the social media
42:25platforms.
42:26It's the attention
42:27economy that
42:28builds on views,
42:30the number of views
42:30that you make,
42:31and the ad tech
42:32system as well.
42:33And this is something
42:34that we want to
42:35actually research
42:37with one of my
42:38colleagues.
42:38So I think
42:39the GSA
42:40is already
42:41quite
42:42progress
42:44in trying to
42:45regulate these
42:46platforms.
42:46But yeah,
42:47there's definitely
42:48some next steps
42:49to be undertaken
42:50and the GSA
42:51itself will be
42:52reviewed next year.
42:54So there's
42:54room for improvement.
42:56Next week
42:57here in France,
42:58school starts
42:58and they're going
42:59to try to curb
43:00phones in middle
43:02schools,
43:03ban them in fact,
43:05trying to make
43:06it a blanket ban.
43:09Is this the
43:09right conversation
43:10that we have
43:11to protect children?
43:12or is it
43:13the whole
43:14of the population
43:14the way Daniel
43:15was saying,
43:16how everybody's
43:18an addict
43:19for those
43:20dopamines?
43:21I think
43:21there definitely
43:22should be
43:23a specific
43:23focus on
43:24children because
43:25I'm not a
43:26psychologist,
43:27but research
43:28shows that
43:29their brain
43:30is not fully
43:30formed yet.
43:31So obviously
43:32this attention
43:33economy doesn't
43:34have the same
43:34impact it has
43:35on us adults.
43:37But you're
43:38right when you
43:38say that everyone
43:40should be protected
43:41from being
43:43exposed to
43:45illegal content
43:45or being
43:46addicted to
43:47watching live
43:48streams.
43:50So yeah,
43:50I think it's
43:50not just kids.
43:52There should be
43:52a specific
43:53focus on kids,
43:54but it concerns
43:55everyone.
43:55And so we
43:56also need more
43:57awareness raising
43:58from civil society
44:00organizations,
44:01from governments,
44:02from the regulators
44:03themselves.
44:04I know it's
44:05easier in some
44:06countries than
44:06in some others.
44:07In France,
44:08we have the chance
44:09of having
44:09ARCOM,
44:10which is one
44:11of the biggest
44:12regulators.
44:13It's not huge,
44:14but it's one
44:15of the biggest
44:15in the EU.
44:16And imagine
44:17in Belgium
44:17or some other
44:18small countries,
44:19it's even more
44:20complicated for them.
44:22Yeah, and they're
44:22not exactly huge
44:23as you say.
44:24I mean, they
44:24received 112,000
44:26complaints about
44:28KIC and
44:29JPE last year.
44:31They have a
44:32total of two
44:33to four people
44:34working through
44:35these complaints.
44:36That gives you
44:37a sense of the
44:38scale.
44:38And they're one
44:38of the bigger
44:39regulators.
44:39before we
44:41even start
44:42to talk
44:42about new
44:43regulations,
44:45that shows
44:46the lack
44:47of resources
44:47that we can
44:48actually,
44:49as a country
44:49that's struggling
44:50for finances,
44:51that we can
44:52afford to give
44:53towards this
44:54kind of thing.
44:55Peter O'Brien,
44:55I want to thank
44:55you so much.
44:56I want to thank
44:56Jessica Galissaire,
44:58Evelyn Linder for
44:59joining us from
45:00Oslo,
45:00Daniel Trottier in
45:01Rotterdam.
45:03Thank you for
45:04being here in the
45:05France 24 debate.
45:06There's more
45:06on this topic
45:07on our website
45:07france24.com.
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