- 6 weeks ago
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00:00so there are these two sides the side of the court and the side of the the public and they
00:05both have valid points old people are afraid of taking walks kids are afraid of going out yes
00:10that is happening it is not just fear-mongering that actually happens dogs are beautiful creatures
00:16faithful creatures and they have been with us since like 40 000 years this species was born
00:23out of human touch human relationship human company this is a very special species
00:29the dog species it didn't take birth really in the jungle it was born around us and because of us
00:36if you can understand how dogs took birth you'll also understand what is happening now so if you're
00:42really an animal lover you say you are an animal lover if you're animal lover why are you not
00:46caring about the millions of other species what kind of selective species specific love is this
00:52but i think both are missing the bigger picture climate change is the biggest threat
00:59the mortal threat to animals climate change is the one factor responsible for the maximum misery to
01:06animals let me be blunt and forgive me for that
01:09namaste achare ji
01:14sir i have also the part of bookstall team in kanpur and we do prepare and do some awareness campaign
01:26regarding operation 2030 that covers the part of climate change and veganism is also the subset of that
01:33problem uh so two days back there was a uh directive by supreme court regarding the
01:40stray dog issue of delhi and ncr region so uh when we read that news uh and parallelly there was another
01:51thing that started outpouring on the social media that was basically the emotional outpour by the animal
01:57activist uh vegan activist uh vegan activist uh dog lovers and all that was going on so in that context
02:04i would really uh appreciate or i would really request you to please let me uh help me interpret this
02:11situation in a better way and next part of this question is how is this uh activism or the emotional
02:18activism going on against this on social media justified
02:21first of all you have to
02:32appreciate both the parties principally
02:38involved in the equation the supreme court and the dog lovers the animal activists
02:44both have valid points what where the supreme court is coming from is
02:52the stray dog population in india is close to seven crores now
02:59you add pets to that it's 10 crores and that's a big number
03:06and the number of dog bites cases runs into several millions
03:12thousands the number of rabies deaths runs into several thousands annually
03:22i suppose 15 20 000
03:26per year that's a very large number and rabies as you know cannot be cured once it happens
03:34and you die a very painful death
03:36and even if you do not get rabies the number of dog bite cases they are there are just just too
03:47many to be ignored and that's where the supreme court seems to be coming from
03:51you have to appreciate the position of the court
03:57that this has become a threat to the public at large
04:03that's the position the supreme court is taking and then you look at animal activists dog lovers
04:12and obviously they have a point they are saying dogs have been man's companions since thousands of years
04:23and they live around our settlements our communities and
04:35there is certain bonding between man and dog and suddenly we are saying we'll round
04:44them all up and take them outside and put them in shelters
04:50and we very well know that we don't have that kind of capacity in shelters we also know that
04:59the the estimated investment it would take we probably have not budgeted that
05:07so how is going how's that going to happen and these dogs were roaming the streets free
05:12sometimes also cared for and now you'll pack them up in ill-maintained shelters and
05:20they'll not have food they'll not have freedom and they'll fight among each other they'll bite each other and
05:32there would be transmission of disease and all kinds of ills
05:37you can you can you can just imagine so so the animal activists their point has to be appreciated
05:51however there are nuances that we need to understand when we broaden the picture beyond
05:58the the immediate pain
06:08and the immediate emotional reaction
06:14yes the supreme court is right in saying that dogs have become a problem big problem
06:34and the dog lovers are very right in saying that dogs are not just animals they are community
06:39but please see where it all begins from and then you will understand where we are positioned
06:53some 20 to 40 000 years back
06:59there was this animal that you could call as a wolf
07:05a wolf not really a wolf but related to wolves you could call it
07:13a cousin to wolves
07:19so this animal started coming closer to human settlements
07:27not all members of its species
07:30but those members that were a little more calm by temperament less aggressive a little friendlier
07:45a little more docile they started coming close to the peripheries of human settlements
07:53why because they would get food they would get food they would get food there
08:03and humans
08:08didn't
08:11object to that
08:15humans in fact
08:17probably to some extent
08:19humans in fact
08:19supported
08:20supported promoted that why
08:23because these animals
08:25would form some kind of a ring
08:28an external boundary
08:31and protect them from other animals
08:35and also warn them
08:38of impending attacks or threats
08:40and the process continued and this wolf-like animal
08:54even today if you see you the name for our common dog here the pet or the is
09:02canis familiaris
09:05and that for the
09:08modern wolf is canis lupus
09:11so they come
09:13from the same family
09:19and then this
09:22this wolf-like creature that came close to humans
09:27it started breeding
09:29evolution was at play
09:32only those members stayed close to humans
09:37that were
09:39calm
09:39more calm
09:42had a milder temperament
09:45only those
09:47and
09:48after every successive generation
09:52the
09:54characteristics
09:55effects of this animal
10:00kept changing by a little
10:03it started wagging its tail
10:05which wolves don't do
10:09it started
10:12losing its weight
10:13and size
10:14over thousands of years
10:20looking remarkably different from wolves
10:27and it became adept
10:29at mingling with human beings
10:33so it developed the ability to read human emotions
10:37and it came to be known as dog
10:43dog
10:45so in some sense
10:47this species was born out of
10:51of human touch
10:54human relationship
10:55human company
10:57this is a very special species
10:59the dog species
11:00it didn't take birth really in the jungle
11:06it was born
11:07around us
11:08and because of us
11:11one important thing that it provided was
11:14scavenging services
11:15so all the rubbish that you would throw at it
11:20it would
11:21clean it up
11:23there was no manufacturing then
11:24no industrial goods
11:27there was only organic waste
11:29and most of that organic waste
11:31would be cleaned up by
11:33the dog species
11:36so dog became
11:38a very close companion of
11:40human beings
11:42that's how dogs were born
11:44you could say
11:45if you can understand how dogs took birth
11:48you will also understand what is happening now
11:54and so dogs became
11:56part of human community
11:58human folklore
12:00our tales
12:02and our homes
12:08and then
12:10came cities
12:15and not much changed
12:17because
12:20dogs came
12:23firstly
12:25to eat from man
12:30and the first cities
12:33they had a lot of dumping spots
12:37and public garbage
12:40so the scene didn't change much for dogs
12:47their principal relationship with man
12:50was based on availability of food near the man
12:53right
12:54that's how the wolf came to man
12:56right
12:58the wolf had to run around and hunt
13:00and said no it's better to go near these people
13:02people
13:03they eat
13:05and they throw the waste
13:07the offal the remains
13:08and i can have all that
13:09and i can just sit there and guard them
13:11and they seem to be happy with it
13:13it's a deal
13:15and the deal
13:17remained
13:18because even in cities
13:20and of course in villages
13:21man was still throwing around enough stuff for the dog to survive
13:28and the dog in turn was providing services
13:32like guarding homes or sometimes acting as a guide
13:35and night watch man
13:36a lot of things
13:37the dog was not useless
13:42the dog was being put to work
13:47the dog became part of the way
13:51we lived and also the way we walked
13:54the dogs were included in our professions our vocations
13:57so all that continued but the fundamental thing was availability
14:01of dumped food
14:09fast forward to the 1960s 70s 80s places like europe japan
14:20canada us
14:27availability of waste
14:29waste in urban places
14:36reduced dramatically
14:42because of cleanliness
14:45and because of door to door collection of waste
14:50you don't have to pile it up somewhere
14:52and even if you are dumping the waste somewhere
14:55it is in a secured bin
14:58that dogs cannot enter
15:01and some vehicle will come and take the whole thing away
15:03and and dogs
15:05and the urban dogs population
15:08it
15:09it greatly reduced
15:13because there was
15:15no food to eat
15:15and that is the situation
15:17in europe and japan
15:19and that is the
15:22that is how the
15:24trajectory of dog population
15:27responds to the
15:29trajectory of urbanization
15:34the more a place urbanizes
15:36the more the
15:38free-ranging dog population diminishes
15:41the stray dogs that is
15:46for the simple reason that there is no food for them to eat
15:51catered colonies secured societies
15:53prosperous neighborhoods where there is a lot of money
16:01those people like cleanliness and where there is cleanliness there can be no dogs
16:05because they will get nothing to eat
16:07simple reason
16:10and dogs came to human beings
16:12in the first place just to
16:15eat
16:15and now that relationship cannot exist because in urban areas by definition it will be very difficult
16:25for stray dogs to survive
16:28and that's what has happened
16:31you go to european capitals or tokyo you won't find any street dogs really
16:38but does that mean that those places don't have dogs they do have dogs
16:41but as pets millions of dogs as pets
16:47millions of dogs
16:51also because the more you urbanize
16:55the more the family size reduces the more the family size reduces the more the family size reduces
16:59the more people feel like keeping pets for company
17:03are you getting it
17:09and the same thing is bound to happen in india as well you cannot stop that
17:15you cannot stop that
17:18also as we know there were mass sterilization programs there
17:26the dogs were not necessarily
17:30chased away to shelters
17:33they were taken away
17:38vaccinated sterilized
17:40and left to their original areas
17:42and once
17:44they are incapable of breeding you find the populations
17:50of the dogs starts declining over a few years and that will happen right
17:55the dogs can be left there but now they can no longer have offsprings
18:00and that's what happens the dog populations in urban areas are bound to reduce
18:07but they will continue in in the peri urban areas near slaughterhouses in the semi-urban areas or in the rural areas there they'll continue
18:20and they'll continue there too only as long as those places don't get sufficiently developed
18:26even those places as they keep developing it will be difficult for dogs because dogs need garbage
18:34stray dogs stray dogs stray dogs need garbage
18:39if a village becomes totally clean it will also become inhospitable to dogs more or less
18:47and the dog population is bound to dwindle
18:51that has happened in all places that have developed that will happen in india as well
18:57are you kidding it so there are only two options then for stray dogs
19:07either integration or extinction
19:14integration into the family
19:18or extinction from the road we are not talking of extinction of dog species
19:23we are talking of extinction of stray dogs
19:29being on the roads as a lifestyle for dogs that will go extinct
19:37you go to a developed place and you will not suddenly find a dog in the middle of road
19:42that does not happen or for that matter a cow or a buffalo you will not find that there
19:49so there has to be either integration or extinction
19:54no no no what does integration mean
19:59they'll have to be adopted
20:01that's a simple solution
20:04that's a simple solution if you if you love dogs adopt them
20:10otherwise
20:14you see no activism
20:17can succeed against historical forces
20:21maybe you can succeed against a particular court order
20:28but you cannot stop the march of history
20:31time is all powerful
20:35and there are certain patterns in time that you cannot resist
20:41with urbanization it will become difficult for dogs
20:43it had become difficult for dogs at other places it will become difficult for dogs
20:47in india also and that's what you see unfolding in delhi ncr
20:53and you cannot stop that the only way to stop that is integration
20:57and integration means
21:01put your money where your mouth is
21:04let dogs into your homes if you really love dogs
21:09adopt them bring them in open your gates
21:13open your gates
21:19you cannot say the dog will remain on the street
21:22if the dog will remain on the street see please understand
21:26we are living in the age of climate change and not just climate change
21:31the cities have local hot spots
21:33and we are talking of roads of cement and asphalt and
21:44it's hot
21:47you know when when when there are summers dogs love to dig into the soil
21:53and the more a space gets urbanized the more it also gets cemented
21:58the more the temperatures rise
22:05you cannot just wish dogs to be around
22:10in urban spaces that is very very impractical you cannot wish them to be
22:14around but yes they can be inside they cannot be around but they can be inside
22:22and when they are inside then you take due responsibility and due care
22:31right because it is not just rabies there are several other
22:35infections right related to dogs
22:41and it is not just that human beings suffer because of dogs dogs to suffer
22:45they are eating your waste obviously that's not a welcome situation
22:57look at how they they live look at how they get crushed under the wheels
23:05look at how
23:08they are they are beaten up
23:09and look at how they fall ill and die that's not a welcome situation
23:20so if we are imagining that we can have dogs around
23:26that's not going to happen history does not support that
23:30you are thinking of utopia that will not materialize dogs can never be around
23:35at least not for long maybe for 10 20 years you can somehow afford that not much beyond that
23:46you'll have to bring dogs inside if you're really sincere
23:51if you're really sincere don't just protest on the roads bring the dogs inside
23:55you leave the dogs on the roads just feeding them won't help it's not just food that an organism needs
24:13and if you are feeding them and leaving them there what about the public nuisance
24:16yes it is true that dog bites occur yes it is true that people are afraid of taking walks in the dark
24:29for the fear of being chased by packs of dogs yes it is true that there are cyclists and bikers and
24:36pedestrians who get chased by dogs and then the bikers meet accidents and then there are deaths yes
24:42that happens and obviously in all those things the poor dog also gets killed
24:49so leaving dogs around in an urban environment is not a good idea
24:58old people are afraid of taking walks kids are afraid of going out yes that is happening
25:03that is not just fear-mongering that actually happens
25:12the dogs are beautiful creatures faithful creatures and they have been with us since like 40 000 years
25:25they are great as pets
25:29i know for sure
25:33i've had dogs i've had several animals
25:38dogs are one of the smartest
25:42and emotionally very responsive
25:48bring them in that's the only way
25:54that's the way of all developed world that's the way of history
26:00are you getting it
26:01right now the whole debate and the outrage around it
26:14is centered on street dogs
26:19let the dog remain not as a street dog
26:23let the dog remain not as a stray dog only then the dog can survive otherwise the dog
26:33will be will be wiped out from at least the urban environment
26:38now let me come to another aspect of the whole thing
26:51yes it is obviously beautiful when we see our species caring for another species
26:57and it is also understandable that care
27:05will first touch those who are around us the nearest to us
27:11if you are a caring person a responsible person a compassionate person
27:15it is natural that your compassion will first touch the beings who are around you physically around you
27:27especially the nearest to you so it is all right to have compassion for dogs
27:33is it beautiful to care for other species yes
27:39but why care for just one species
27:45we all know dogs are lovely
27:46but let's also beyond the emotion put things in perspective
27:57in india alone we said we have 10 crore dogs
28:02that's a lot dogs are not in danger of mortal extinction
28:08and on the other hand in india itself we have
28:10100 species at least of animals and birds
28:16that are either critically endangered or endangered or vulnerable
28:21and we don't talk of them
28:27this
28:30obsession
28:32with just a few species is the bane
28:37of the animal world
28:39world
28:40you know how far this obsession
28:44has taken us
28:5096 percent of all animal biomass
28:54which is the weight of all animals 96 percent
28:58of those of that biomass
29:00comes from just a few
29:03species that we have domesticated
29:058 or 10 species
29:098 or 10 species contribute to 96 percent of the biomass
29:15of the animal kingdom
29:16and the remaining millions of species contribute just 4 percent of the mass
29:23because we care only for those species that are around us
29:26and those species have proliferated
29:31dogs, cats, chicken, buffaloes, cows, sheep, camel, pigs
29:39these species have become so numerous so numerous
29:46that they have encroached upon the rights of the entire animal kingdom
29:54food is being grown to feed these species
29:56species and food is being grown
30:00by hacking down jungles where the other species live
30:04so because these few species are useful to human beings
30:10just as dogs are useful to human beings
30:12so there are some seven eight other species that are useful to human beings in various ways
30:16mostly as food actually
30:19because these seven eight species are useful to us
30:22so we have artificially bloated their population
30:27to an extent that they are now 96 percent of the animal kingdom by mass
30:35and we care only for these few species
30:37if you go to a vet
30:40and you say
30:43i want to bring a zebra to you
30:45he will not know what to do with it
30:46because even our veterinary sciences have taken care of only the animals
30:54that are of use to us
30:56so we have medicines
30:58for cattle
30:59for cats
31:00for dogs
31:03and that's about all
31:06for chicken
31:07and that's it
31:10that's it
31:12other animals we don't care for
31:14so if you're really an animal lover
31:17you say you are an animal lover
31:18if you're animal lover
31:19why are you not caring about the millions of other species
31:23what kind of selective
31:26species specific love is this
31:33what kind of love is this
31:34so on one hand
31:36it is heartwarming to see
31:38human beings coming out for other species
31:41but then one
31:42feels like wondering
31:43why only one species
31:47do you know the rate of species extinction
31:50hundreds of species are going extinct every day
31:55hundreds or maybe thousands
31:57and this rate of extinction
32:00is 10 to 100 times greater than the natural rate
32:03so we are killing them
32:05so on one hand we are killing hundreds of species
32:08every day killing
32:09not not killing not killing
32:11wiping out
32:12making them extinct
32:14on the one hand we are wiping out
32:17hundreds of species every day
32:19on the other hand
32:20all our affection
32:21is reserved only for the few species
32:24that are of use to us
32:25what kind of selfishness is this
32:32if you are an animal lover
32:33i'll want you to be vocal
32:35about the millions of species
32:37but instead you are focusing only on
32:39those two
32:39these two three four
32:40these two three four i also
32:42care about
32:43yes obviously
32:45but not only these two three four
32:53are you getting it
32:59the climate change
33:00climate change
33:02is the biggest threat
33:05the mortal threat
33:06to animals
33:11climate change is the one
33:13factor responsible for the maximum misery to animals
33:20climate change and deforestation together
33:22and climate change and deforestation are both linked to each other
33:24if i am really an animal lover
33:28if i'm honest
33:30then the first thing i'll speak about
33:33is climate change
33:34but instead we find
33:36people calling themselves dog lovers
33:37and focusing only on dogs
33:39and having nothing to do with the climate
33:41in fact they'll feed their dogs
33:46several kinds of packaged foods
33:49dogs as pets
33:52packaged foods
33:54that are manufactured at the cost of the climate
33:59so basically in keeping one animal of one species alive
34:04you are bringing
34:06untold and deep misery
34:08to hundreds of
34:10members of hundreds of other species
34:13now what kind of animal love is this
34:17feeding chicken to dog
34:21feeding fish to cat
34:24let me be blunt
34:27and forgive me for that
34:29calling yourself an animal lover or an animal activist
34:34and not having climate at the very top of your agenda
34:38is sheer hypocrisy
34:43rescuing one or two or five or fifty animals
34:47is a wonderful thing
34:49but if we love to rescue two five fifty animals
34:55why doesn't our heart bleed
34:58for the crores of animals we are slaughtering every day
35:01and not just slaughtering
35:02making extinct forever every day
35:07how are these two things compatible
35:13one dog we want to rescue
35:14and i'm glad we rescue that dog
35:16when you are rescuing that dog
35:18i too will come to lend a helping hand
35:19wonderful
35:21but even as you rescue that dog
35:23you are silent when it comes
35:27to the millions of deaths happening daily
35:31what kind of animal love is this
35:32so there are these two sides
35:45the side of the court and the side of the
35:49the public
35:49and they both have valid points
35:57but i think
36:01both are missing the bigger picture
36:09what the supreme court is proposing is
36:13not very practical from what i could gather
36:15you take away dogs from a place
36:23obviously you have not taken away dogs from
36:26its neighboring place right
36:29you will take away assuming you take away dogs
36:33from ncr
36:34but ncr has a boundary
36:37and you haven't taken away dogs that lie outside that boundary
36:40the moment you take away dogs from ncr
36:42dogs from outside the boundary
36:44will eagerly come in to fill up the vacuum
36:49because dogs are territorial
36:51which means that territory was
36:54earlier not available to the dogs outside the boundary
36:57now they'll happily
36:59come over
37:02and breed
37:03and in no time will you find that the dog population is
37:07back to where it started from
37:09so this this sounds impractical also inhumane
37:17i just cannot calmly visualize
37:20dogs all crowded together
37:24in some kind of a dog shelter
37:27and i don't know what measures we have to ensure
37:30the the welfare of the dogs there
37:34so so i cannot
37:39accept that it's going to be a pleasant experience for the poor animals there
37:45so the supreme court position suffers from these flaws in my opinion
37:49and what the animal activists are doing
37:54i think it is more reaction than compassion
38:01because compassion includes wisdom
38:04compassion cannot be
38:07person specific or species specific
38:09if you have compassion then you will let it radiate out to everyone
38:24yeah that's what i have to say in this
38:27where's the questioner
38:36right the questioner recently dropped out because of some network issues trying to get him back
38:42maybe
38:44he's gone to fetch some stray
38:47i said i said open your gates and doors and bring them in
38:57in
39:00in
39:00in
39:02in
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