- 1 year ago
'Dying for Sex' executive producers Nikki Boyer and Kim Rosenstock, as well as star Michelle Williams, chat with THR's Seija Rankin to talk all about the FX show during a THR Frontrunners conversation.
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00:00I wasn't holding on, which is weird because I'm really type A and super controlling about things,
00:04but I just felt like I was just letting this beautiful art happen.
00:07And I'm so, I'm just so, there's not a chill bone in my body.
00:12This, by the way, I am not chill at all.
00:14Like, I'm freaking out all the time about this.
00:17So it was an amazing experience.
00:19Nikki, I'm going to start with you since this sort of starts with you.
00:30When you were doing the podcast that this series is based on,
00:34were you getting a lot of people, dare I say, sniffing about for this story?
00:40Or like how much interest were you sort of getting?
00:43And when did the idea of potentially taking a story into another medium start to enter your space?
00:51That's a great question because I haven't thought about that in such a long time.
00:54It was so long ago, right, when Molly and I first started recording.
00:57By the way, thanks for being here, everybody.
00:59I'm so grateful.
01:00Like, I love you all.
01:00And just being together is such a gift.
01:02So thank you for being here.
01:04But when we first started recording,
01:05we had tried to pitch it to some production companies as an idea for a show
01:11because we kind of thought there was something really magical.
01:14And everyone kept saying, this is such a great idea.
01:17And we'd say, great, can you give us some money?
01:19And they were like, this is such a great idea.
01:22So we then just decided to start recording ourselves.
01:26And I think a lot of people were afraid a little bit to dive into death and sex
01:31because, quite frankly, advertisers don't gravitate towards death and sex.
01:36Like, what are the ad sales going to be?
01:37Like, people were thinking that.
01:39And luckily, we paired up with Wondery, which took a beautiful risk
01:44and then helped us bring our recordings into a real limited series.
01:49So it was bumpy.
01:51But the people that were interested were the people that were meant to be in it with us.
01:56I felt like every time we found a new partner along the way,
01:59there was like a spiritual understanding that we were all in this risky storytelling adventure together.
02:05And to that end, Michelle and Kim, I'd ask you, were you at all,
02:10did you have any feelings of being afraid of the death element?
02:14And how did you overcome that?
02:16Or were you instantly comfortable with it and that being why you were the right people?
02:20But kind of what was your, did that,
02:23did you have that experience at all when you heard about the story?
02:25Well, I'll jump in first because I, I, this podcast, this beautiful podcast,
02:32which if you like the show, you have to listen to the podcast because it's, it's absolutely glorious,
02:37came to me through my all really like friend of 20 years, Liz Merriweather,
02:44who I'd worked with on many projects and we'd known each other forever.
02:47And she called me, she had, um, optioned the podcast with,
02:51she had met with Nikki right before the world shut down in March, 2020.
02:54It was the last meeting any of them had in person.
02:57And, um, and she called me and she said, you know, uh, would you,
03:02I know like we're all in a really dark time right now,
03:05but would you want to listen to this podcast?
03:07It's about a woman dying of cancer.
03:09And I was like, I don't think that's what I need right now.
03:13I'm going to watch like the cooking shows and the reality dancing shows like that.
03:16Like, I don't think that's like, that's not the right vibe.
03:19And she was like, but she also has a sexual awakening.
03:21And I was like, Oh, okay.
03:24Yeah.
03:24So give me the link.
03:25And then I listened to it and I was like, yes, it's scary.
03:29Yes.
03:29Death is scary, but actually death ended up being so much more to me than I,
03:37I now think of it in a completely different way because of the podcast,
03:42because of this story.
03:43And so I became less scared of it.
03:46As I kept pushing deeper into it and working on this show.
03:51So that's my answer.
03:54Well, similarly, I mean, when it first, when it came to me,
03:57and this was after your guys' collaboration,
04:01and I think it was a single script.
04:03I think it was a single episode.
04:04I hadn't listened to the podcast, but I had this script.
04:07And then I had your guys' letters about like what the podcast meant to you.
04:11And immediately I just thought, well, they're the same kind of weirdo as me.
04:16And I love this.
04:18Like whatever it is that they're talking about and what this is drummed up for them.
04:22This is where I want to go next.
04:25And then I listened to the entire podcast and was obliterated by it, but also mystified by it.
04:33I was like, why am I so moved by this thing?
04:35And now I kind of know what it is.
04:39It has, like you said, it has changed the way that I think about dying.
04:43And it has opened up a possibility that for me, like when, not to get too, I know it's like before noon.
04:49But like, bad news, it's coming for all of us.
04:54And how will I, how will I meet that?
04:56And can I open up a spaciousness to, while in the midst of all of the other things, like I think for Molly, like she wasn't just going to be a diagnosis and a cancer patient.
05:08And she had her mind made up that she was going to continue to be all of the Molly that she could be.
05:14And what an incredible challenge to give to ourselves.
05:18I don't know that I can meet it, but I think about it now.
05:22It's funny, I had actually scribbled down to myself that I was going to end on asking everybody how you thought about death now.
05:29So it's better that we got to it now, because then we'll end on something a little bit lighter perhaps.
05:34But something that stuck out to me, when you said that they had the letters that they sent to you with the script about what it meant,
05:40is that to you something that's normal when people send you scripts or ideas or pitches?
05:45Or was that something unique to Kim and Liz's process with it?
05:53You know, sometimes you'll get letters about what inspired the person to make this the next piece of work in their life.
06:01And, you know, and really I think it's about, like, what is the deeper meaning behind this thing?
06:05It's not just a thing.
06:06It's trying to see how far it can go and how much it can live inside people's hearts and minds
06:12and if it can cause any vibrational shift for an audience member.
06:17And when I read what they were thinking about and what it meant to them, I was like, oh, yeah, that's my next evolution.
06:23Like, that's where I would like to go there.
06:24And I'm sort of, like, just drag me along.
06:27And I want that ride.
06:30We were writing, like, an embarrassing love letter to Michelle.
06:33And we were like, oh, no.
06:35What did it say?
06:36It was, I still have it in my email.
06:38We had a couple drafts and, like, we were like, should we say that?
06:41Because it's Michelle Williams.
06:42Like, we have to sort of seem chill and cool.
06:46But we want to talk to her so badly.
06:49And, you know, we just, I remember we were like, we're just going to put it all out there.
06:56And we talked about having sex and farting at the same time.
06:59And then the miracle was that it's kind of like what Nikki was saying.
07:04Michelle came on the Zoom and instantly it was like, oh, we found another one.
07:08Okay.
07:09Like, another person that, like, just inherently understands this and, like, is already in it without ever having talked about it together.
07:22It's like what you were saying.
07:24The show kind of collected its people as we went along.
07:27And I, I, my, like, woo-woo part of me is like, I do feel like that's a little bit like Molly.
07:34Like, her, her blessing and presence on this.
07:37I know.
07:38But, like, you could feel it.
07:39Like, so.
07:41Also, an interesting lesson, too, that maybe we don't ever have to be chill and cool.
07:46That it's, it's actually, right?
07:47I mean, we, we think that and then what people connect to is just, like, putting yourself out there like that.
07:54It was like, how on earth would we ever get Michelle?
07:57This was like a, we did not think this was going to happen.
08:00Like, you know, it was like, yeah, sure, Meryl Streep will be in this show.
08:03But, like, so, like, we were like, we have to shoot our shot.
08:07Like, we have to do everything we, we can to, to get her on just one Zoom if we could just talk to her.
08:14So, yeah, that was, don't be, don't be chill and cool was the lesson.
08:18Don't be chill and cool.
08:19Nikki, what was the experience like of both watching, we'll talk about Jenny Slate a little bit,
08:26watching someone embody a version of you versus watching Michelle embody a version,
08:31kind of bring back your friend if, if that's what it felt like.
08:35Like, kind of, how did those two things compare to each other?
08:38It, it's, I don't know if I've ever told you this, but there was a moment after shooting
08:46where I said to my husband, like, I'm having some interesting feelings.
08:50Like, I really miss Michelle.
08:53Like, I miss her.
08:54Like, I was so emotional about it.
08:56And he said, well, that's because she's your version of Molly now.
09:00So, I was having these deep, griefy feelings about not being able to see her each day on set
09:05and touch her and look at her face.
09:07And I realized it was, that what was happening was, was that.
09:10So, you're stuck with me now, girl.
09:13Forever.
09:13Right?
09:14So, I just, I think watching this version of dying for sex with Jenny and Michelle
09:23felt like, just selfishly and privately, it felt like a new layer of love and a new layer
09:30of grief and a new layer of expression.
09:33And I was so proud of it.
09:35And I was so deeply moved by how hard and fast they dove into the characters.
09:41So, I just very much was grateful for that.
09:44And there was no judgment.
09:47I wasn't holding on to, well, this was true and this wasn't.
09:49I was so grateful for the colors and the beautiful strokes that Kim and Liz painted with
09:55and the way that she beautifully acted Molly.
09:57And there was, I wasn't holding on, which is weird because I'm really type A and super controlling about things.
10:01But I just felt like I was just letting this beautiful art happen.
10:05And I'm so, I'm just so, there's not a chill bone in my body.
10:10Just by the way, I am not chill at all.
10:12Like, I am freaking out all the time about this.
10:14So, it was an amazing experience.
10:18Yeah.
10:18Do you mind if I ask you what your purse is like?
10:22Is your bag, do you have a capital V bag?
10:24Okay, I do not have a big ass bag filled with a bunch of stuff.
10:28But my husband was like, have you seen the trunk of your car?
10:33And have you seen the desktop of your computer?
10:35And I was like, what are you, oh my God, it's such a mess.
10:37Like, my desktop is, nothing's filed right, nothing has a name.
10:42It's like QQRP.BY.
10:44And he's, what's that?
10:45I'm like, I don't know.
10:45It's just a document.
10:47Open it up if you want to see what it is.
10:49And it's like, this file can't be opened.
10:50And so, Jenny's purse is my computer in my trunk.
10:55Things on the way to Goodwill.
10:56So, there are some, a lot of similarities between the two.
11:00But I do hate Shakespeare, which I thought was hilarious that I was in Shakespeare.
11:05You hate Shakespeare?
11:05I hate Shakespeare.
11:06Isn't that so funny?
11:08So, I actually, I mean, I don't hate it.
11:10I just wouldn't go buy a ticket to see it.
11:13Unless I'm in London, right?
11:15Unless I'm in London.
11:16But, oh my gosh.
11:18Sorry, I need to show that.
11:19I don't think they're getting spicy.
11:21But I did think it was amazing that they made Jenny this Shakespeare-loving actress.
11:25And I was like, that's perfect.
11:26I loved the differences so much.
11:29Almost as much as the similarities, actually.
11:31For some reason, when we shifted the show, at first it was set in L.A.
11:34And then we shifted it to New York once we knew that Michelle was going to be in it.
11:38And it was, for some reason, we were like, well, now Nikki has to do Shakespeare.
11:42Because that's what actors in New York do.
11:45And that is not true at all.
11:47But, like, it felt like it felt right.
11:50But Nikki is, like, just to say, like, Liz and I had her trust and, like, her generosity.
11:57The way that Nikki was with this story, which is so deeply personal and real for her.
12:04And still grief is coursing through her.
12:08Like, the way that she would just get on the phone with us at any moment and mine pain, like, painful experiences from her life.
12:17Just to give us details for scenes and, like, anything we needed.
12:21At the same time, totally giving us the freedom to make this show its own thing.
12:26And to build out these characters to create new stories.
12:32And it was not a biopic, you know.
12:34And we always, the fact that we had Nikki is what allowed us to do that.
12:38Because not everyone would have been this.
12:42It's very rare to have this kind of generosity and collaboration from someone who, like, has already made it.
12:50And knows what it is and literally lived it.
12:52Like, she could have been fact-checking us the whole way through.
12:55And never, never, not even once.
12:58It was beautiful.
12:59The only time is I think I made your boyfriend's name your brother's name.
13:03And I was like, that's creepy.
13:04You were like, can you change that name?
13:06And I was like, yeah, no problem.
13:07I understood.
13:09Michelle, how would you describe the vibe on set?
13:12I'm curious about kind of the mixture of, like, joy and sadness and heaviness and laughter that was in the show.
13:19And how that kind of, in those heavier scenes, what it was like.
13:23And just kind of how you guys all moved through the emotions of what you were playing.
13:29Well, I think underlying everything when you are, well, underlying everything are two things.
13:36I think really what you know that what you're there to do is build a bonfire and around the love that these two women shared and to let everybody else experience that warmth.
13:48So, like, that's a guiding principle.
13:49And the other guiding principle is we feel so honored to go to work and to have this material to work with.
14:01So, underneath the things that, yes, on the day-to-day level they might feel like, oh, I feel vulnerable or I feel sad or I feel emotional or I feel whatever feelings I'm having.
14:11But the real base layer of that is expressing the friendship between these two women and the gratitude to have this material.
14:23So, that is really, like, what suffuses and tempers the emotionality of it.
14:28Something that really struck me when you mentioned that you had written the show to be in L.A.
14:33And then Michelle came on board and so you changed it to New York.
14:37And is that the kind of, because it also is really striking to me that this show is made by so many women.
14:43And I assume that you did that because your family, your home life needed you to be in New York.
14:48And is that, that probably came to you like, oh, duh, of course we'll do that.
14:52But, like, I don't know, that still feels like such a, something that wouldn't necessarily always be the answer or be easy to do or be what you're offered in a job.
15:02But correct me if I'm, if I'm wrong, if that's.
15:05Yeah, I think it was a lot of moms making this show.
15:09And actually a lot of moms of daughters, which I think was a big, really interesting thing.
15:14Because a lot of the show is about, like, this woman who is trying to heal herself and put herself back together with, with her child self.
15:22Who was the last time she inhabited her body and felt joy and felt confidence and felt, like, truly alive.
15:28So, we all have these, like, little girls running around.
15:32And, you know, I think, I think it's, I will just say it's amazing to make shows with fellow moms.
15:39And, like, there are things that you normally would have to ask for that you don't feel at all weird asking for.
15:44And I think Michelle set such a beautiful tone in that regard as number one on the call sheet, an EP, the star of the show.
15:55Also a really just caring, giving person who's constantly aware of the parents on, on, in the process and what they need.
16:04And, and yes, we moved the show to New York because of what, what Michelle's family needed.
16:08And then, along the way, we took care of everybody else's families.
16:12Like, that, it was, but it starts from the top.
16:15And, you know, I think it's such a gift.
16:16I was, like, I was able to bring my daughter to set.
16:20And because, because our producer, who's also a mom, found a way for me to have a babysitter there the whole time.
16:26Our director, Shannon, her daughter was also there with a babysitter.
16:29These girls were on set.
16:31Watch, like, this doesn't normally happen.
16:33This has to happen if, this only happens when, like, you know, you have the right people involved.
16:37And I credit Michelle with, she, she set up a beautiful playroom.
16:41We made an Ikea room.
16:44One day I went up there and every day it said, well, it was, like, the most beautiful preschool.
16:49Every day it said, welcome to whichever children happened to be there.
16:52Their names were on the board.
16:53I don't know who figured that out.
16:54But, like, Michelle just made that happen.
16:56And so, again, she's incredible in the ways that we all know, but, like, as an actor, but just as a human being and as the leader of this show, like, of this cast.
17:07Like, I mean, an incredible person.
17:10Just a wonderful human.
17:11Sorry.
17:13Yeah.
17:16And when one person does that, it allows the next person to do it.
17:19Like, you have to see someone doing that to know that you can do that and what you can ask for.
17:24Yeah.
17:24Michelle, and, of course, if there's anything you want to react to in Kim's.
17:28But I wanted to know, too, like, did you see people doing that when you were younger in your career?
17:33Like, kind of what are you modeling yourself as, as number one on the call sheet, as a producer, as you become powerful enough to make these changes?
17:43I remember when I was making this movie, The Great and Powerful Oz, and Sam Raimi was the director.
17:50And every time my daughter would come to set, he would say, stop, stop, stop, everyone.
17:54Here is our most special and honored visitor.
17:59And then he had her sit next to him.
18:02She had her own chair.
18:03And it was right at his monitor, like, at the director's monitor.
18:06And she would watch takes with him and talk to him about them.
18:11And then one time he told me this story that, like, one time he was getting, like, sort of upset or frustrated with something.
18:17And he felt this little tiny hand reach out and touch his arm.
18:22And he was like, oh, she really, I really needed her there in that moment.
18:26And there she was.
18:28So I'd had, like, little examples of that, like, where, and, you know, that was an amazing movie to be on, too,
18:32because, like, there was a costume department.
18:33And they made her, like, a skirt that matched mine and, like, a tiara that matched mine.
18:37So I'd seen a little, like, things like that.
18:40And then I've, my husband makes, my husband and I made this show, Fosse Verdon, together.
18:51And I saw how he opened up space to allow people to do their best work,
18:55a really safe, exuberant, harmonious environment full of, full of yes.
19:01And when we started on this job and I realized, oh, my God, I'm number one on the call sheet?
19:14Oh, okay, it's up to me.
19:16Oh, okay.
19:19Take a deep breath.
19:20Grow up and make the thing, try, be a part of making the thing the way that you want it to be.
19:29And find that extra energy that isn't just going straight into your work.
19:34Find that extra energy to spread about the workplace and just, and think, what would be good?
19:39What would be good?
19:40And then ask and then be a part of making the yes happen.
19:44So it was really, it was very, it was really exciting for me because it was a new experience for me.
19:52And I got, and, and, and also, you know, when you look around and you see so many women,
19:56you're like, okay, we have got to, if they're going to give us this opportunity,
20:01and it's a show about women, directed, produced, written, starring,
20:05maybe we, we can rewrite some of these rules here.
20:10Woo!
20:10To that, and I do remember Jenny saying, I believe the direct quote was,
20:19it seemed like there was also always an ice cream truck there.
20:23We know food is central.
20:25We know what makes us happy.
20:28And it's honestly having something nice to eat to look forward to.
20:32So much of this show is about taking care of people.
20:36And I think that, again, just filtered into the whole process.
20:41How can we keep taking care of, of each other?
20:44Also, the show goes to a lot of dark, really hard, really painful, really sad places.
20:50And, and so how do you keep joy in, in the air?
20:56Like, how do we, how do you get through the day?
20:58You know, Liz and I read all of these books about sexual trauma and about the people that work,
21:04do the hard work of, like, the doctors that work with patients and, like, hear these horrible things.
21:10And it's like, how do they get through at the end of the day?
21:13Those doctors, and it's always, like, comes back to connection.
21:16Friends and family laughing, joy, finding those moments at the end of their days.
21:21And, like, I think we needed to take care.
21:24We knew, everyone knew, like, that we needed to keep that in mind throughout the process.
21:29Because it's, in order to ask people to go to these really dark, sit in very painful areas, like, thematically and emotionally.
21:38Especially, you know, Michelle and Jenny, who were there, literally in almost every scene.
21:44So, but often they were the source of the ice cream trucks.
21:48Like, so it was like, again, they're doing everything.
21:51It was amazing.
21:51I don't know where these ice cream trucks are coming from.
21:52Maybe Jenny didn't get the ice cream truck, but she did other things.
21:56Maybe, I think Michelle got, you definitely got a lot of, you got a lot of trucks.
22:01There were definitely tacos, pizzas from Michelle.
22:04Very important.
22:06I wanted to ask you too, Nikki.
22:10As Michelle and Kim talked a little bit about how the show made them think about dying differently,
22:16I'm wondering if for you, the experience, the unique experience of making this show and then maybe even watching the episodes back made you think about anything differently that you hadn't already in this, what I imagine has been a long process of being immersed in this topic and material.
22:34That's, it gave me more depth to Molly.
22:40Like I got, like when you're going through grief and you're in the hospital, you're kind of on autopilot a little bit.
22:44You're just kind of one foot in front of the other and doing what you need to do.
22:47And in this process of watching the podcast be released, watching the show be shot, getting in dailies and watching the show, each one gave me a different level of new grief.
22:58Like I, I just knew when there was a first, like I'm getting the first script, I'm getting the first day, I get to watch the first raw cut of episode one.
23:08There was a new level of grief.
23:10And one thing that I've learned is that the grief is just like love just coming out, right?
23:18It's just, uh, it's lost, but it's really an expression of love.
23:22So I just felt so happy and grateful to get new layers of grief because when people pass, we kind of just keep going on without them and we have a holiday or a moment or a picture.
23:35But I keep getting these new ripples of grief and love of Molly and I've never experienced that.
23:42I've never loved someone so deeply.
23:44I've never fallen in love with someone more after they've been gone.
23:49Like this is a very unique experience that I've gotten to do and I, that is not lost on me.
23:54So I'm just really forced to be super present now.
23:57I feel like in moments, like I'm so taking you in, in this moment, like I will not forget this, right?
24:03Like I won't forget this moment.
24:05And so it causes me to kind of, every time something cool is happening, I stop and I soak it in and I look and I take little snapshots.
24:15So it's enhanced my life deeply.
24:19You're going to get such good snapshots when you go to the big awards show.
24:22So I'm, I'm going to end us on asking about, selfishly, my favorite scene from the series, which is, and I won't really spoil it if there's anyone who hasn't seen to the end, but there's a moment where you dance to the song Heart and Soul.
24:37Um, and I, and I instantly like added it onto my Spotify and it absolutely will be showing up in my wrapped at the end of the year.
24:47But I just wanted to ask about, I don't know, there's something about like dancing scenes, how you picked that song, just like what your memories are of this kind of, yeah, just getting to like be so free on screen and dance to this like incredible eighties.
25:01I think it's eighties song.
25:04Well, it's funny, you know, so much of this show is feels like it's about the way that we grew up in the eighties.
25:13And so we were, I think it was Shannon had said, oh, we're looking for a song for the rally.
25:20Remember the moment.
25:21And I said, it's Heart and Soul, T-Pow.
25:23Michelle literally was there doing another scene and somehow had her phone out and was like, play.
25:28It's my jam.
25:29Okay.
25:29That's, that's, that's my song.
25:31That's my like, Michelle chose that song.
25:33That's me driving in the minivan, just like jamming out with Heart and Soul.
25:37So the dance, it came easily.
25:38It's like something you're like, I always, I'm actually always doing this.
25:41Yes.
25:42So we'll just capture it on camera this time.
25:44Perfect.
25:44Um, well, thank you guys so much for, for chatting and for making this show and for being so generous with your thoughts on it.
25:50Um, I'm sure everybody appreciates it.
25:52So thank you for joining us, everybody.
25:54Thank you for being here.