- 5 months ago
At a House Armed Services Committee hearing before the Congressional recess, Rep. Eugene Vindman (D-VA) criticized Defense Sec. Hegseth’s handling of the Signal group chat scandal earlier this year.
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00:01We will now consider log number 5619 by Mr. Ryan of New York.
00:11For what purpose does the gentleman from New York seek recognition?
00:13Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have an amendment at the desk.
00:15Clerk will please distribute the amendment without objection to reading the amendments dispensed with.
00:19The chair recognizes the gentleman from New York for the purpose of explaining his amendment.
00:23Thank you, Mr. Chair. This amendment is fundamentally and foundationally about accountability.
00:29This is a topic many of us have had to bring up over and over during the first six, seven months of this administration as it relates to the department, but specifically to the secretary.
00:40And to be clear to the American people who may be tuning in to this hearing, what we're talking about here is authorizing over $880 billion of our hard-earned taxpayer dollars,
00:53setting department-wide policy on the largest department in the world, all at the same time that the person in charge of this agency is deeply incompetent
01:04and continues, with chance after chance provided, to take any accountability for a series of grave failures that in any other time in any other administration
01:16would be cause for immediate relief or resignation.
01:21What's happening factually with no spin at the Pentagon, multiple now confirmed leaks of classified information,
01:30starting with a widely understood and recognized leak on signal of information that decisively and definitively was classified,
01:39and, thank God, did not cost lives of American service members, but in many other situations could have,
01:45followed by wave after wave of mass firings at an unprecedented level of competent, committed patriots
01:53to make room for cronies or, in many cases, to leave the seat open at one of the most dangerous and vulnerable times for America in the world,
02:01including, importantly, the very inspectors general, charged in a bipartisan way for decades of precedent to oversee the department
02:12and bring the exact accountability that we're counting on, and finally, and significantly most recently,
02:18since the Secretary was before this committee, a unilateral, unexplained, and incredibly misguided effort
02:26to freeze and stop aid to our allies at a moment where they desperately need it and in direct contradiction
02:34to the President's orders with no explanation to the National Security Advisor or the President himself.
02:41Clearly, the, and it gives me no pleasure to use this term, the mess, the dumpster fire at the Pentagon continues to grow
02:50and Secretary Hegseth continues to put more fuel on it, and by not taking action, we allow that to continue.
02:57And you don't have to take my word for it.
02:58I've shared these quotes before with the committee, but they haven't driven any response from my colleagues,
03:03so I'll share them again.
03:04These are the words of senior appointees from the Secretary.
03:09Quote, total chaos at the Pentagon.
03:12Quote, full-blown meltdown at the Pentagon.
03:15Quote, in short, the building is in disarray under Hegseth's leadership.
03:22These are not Democrats or partisans.
03:25They were political appointees of this administration that said those words after having the dignity
03:30to resign and leave understanding the risk that they were putting the American people in
03:35and the risk to their own reputation, frankly.
03:37But again, in the face of this unprecedented chaos, and specifically the failures around Signal,
03:44to take any accountability, there's been no recognition of these failures.
03:50And the fact that the Secretary came before this distinguished committee
03:55and had so many opportunities to just say, you know what, we got it wrong.
04:03We made a mistake.
04:03Which is what all of us learn in our jobs as representatives,
04:06what all of us who served in uniform learned over and over,
04:09that accountability has to be set by leadership.
04:12There wasn't a millimeter of accountability.
04:14And that is truly pathetic.
04:18This is something that I've thought a lot about,
04:22how to describe what is happening at this place that I love,
04:28at the Department of Defense that I love, that I served under,
04:30that so many of us care about, that so much of us invest so much of our time and energy
04:35into making better.
04:36And the term that I keep coming back to is something I learned when I first got in the Army.
04:41Secretary Hegseth is FUBAR.
04:43That's where we're at.
04:47And we all know, especially in this room, what that means.
04:49So I urge my colleagues to support this amendment, which again is about accountability.
04:54And I'll remind in closing my colleagues what Secretary Hegseth himself said
04:59when he took this role on.
05:02Accountability is back at the Pentagon.
05:05Those were his words.
05:07So why don't we live by them?
05:08And if he won't live by them, this amendment will hold back
05:11the American people's funds until that accountability is provided.
05:17So I thank the chair and yield back.
05:19Gentleman yields back.
05:20Chair now recognizes himself.
05:21Let's be clear.
05:22This amendment is not about accountability.
05:25This amendment is little more than partisan posturing.
05:27The DOD IG is reviewing this matter.
05:31We will get a briefing on that when it's completed.
05:34All this amendment will do is hold funding for the sick-deaf hostage
05:37and undermine his ability to execute his critical responsibilities.
05:40Therefore, I oppose the amendment.
05:42And with that, I recognize the ranking member, Mr. Smith.
05:44Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
05:45I think Mr. Ryan did a great job of explaining the amendment.
05:48Just really want to emphasize one point,
05:50and that is the lack of accountability around the mistake that was made
05:54on the signal chat to share sensitive information in advance of an attack.
06:00Yes, the IG is undergoing an investigation,
06:03but let's remember that the Trump administration fired the AG.
06:06So it's an acting IG who has to be aware of the fact that he too can be fired
06:12as he's doing this review.
06:14So what we need is we need the Secretary of Defense himself to say something about this,
06:21to issue some policy as to how he's going to make sure that it doesn't happen again.
06:26And I know at this point, I mean, we've talked about it so much,
06:29but the basic details of this are so unimaginable that if you took out the partisanship
06:34and simply put it in front of any member of this committee,
06:38there would be outrage that this information was shared in the manner that it was shared.
06:42It's not even debatable that this was okay,
06:46even though Secretary Hegseth continues to say that it was perfectly okay.
06:50So what the committee has a right to expect is that they'll tell us how they're not going to do it again
06:56because we are left with the impression that this is standard operating procedure.
07:01And if it is standard operating procedure, it places the lives of service members at risk,
07:08which we should not as a committee be willing to simply accept because of partisan reasons.
07:14We should in a bipartisan way say,
07:16no, this is not the way we're supposed to do this.
07:19Please tell us that you understand that and you're not going to do it again.
07:23Now, there have been several reports about other signal chats
07:26and other information being of a classified nature being shared in a manner that was not secure
07:32that basically emphasized the point that this is a problem that needs to be fixed.
07:38So yes, there are endless partisan arguments to be made around this,
07:42but there's one that isn't partisan.
07:45This shouldn't be happening at the Department of Defense.
07:48And we should all say, even if you don't want to ask for him to resign,
07:51if you want to say, hey, mistakes happen, whatever, fix it.
07:56And let us know how you fixed it so that we can be confident that it's not going to happen again.
08:01That's what this amendment does, and it's why it should be supported.
08:05I yield back.
08:07Gentleman, yield back, Chair, and I recognize Mr. Bindman.
08:09Thank you, Mr. Chair.
08:12Mr. Chair, I'd just like to make one point pretty clear on this,
08:16is that the DOD IG review of this conduct cannot encompass all of the conduct
08:24that took place in SignalGate because DOD IG has no purview, has no jurisdiction over that.
08:30So as we know, the National Security Advisor created that chat.
08:34All of that information, material external to DOD cannot be reviewed by DOD IG.
08:43So by its very nature, that investigation is going to be incomplete.
08:48So I still believe Secretary Hegseth must resign.
08:52He is the least qualified, most experienced, least competent SecDef in our history, and it shows.
08:57He came to the House Armed Services Committee hearing woefully unprepared
09:01and did not have answers to my simple questions.
09:03Further, one of my constituents came up to me at a district event.
09:07She was irate at Secretary Hegseth's actions during SignalGate, and for good reason.
09:12Her son was one of the fighter pilots in the air over Yemen.
09:16Secretary Hegseth undoubtedly put her son's life in danger and certainly the mission at risk.
09:22I asked if he wanted to apologize to this mom, this service member mom,
09:27and the secretary told me point blank, not once but three times, I do not apologize.
09:31These events surrounding SignalGate weren't just a lapse in judgment.
09:36This is a potentially catastrophic failure.
09:39Secretary Hegseth released where and when our forces would be attacking the enemy two hours before they did so.
09:45It's simple and it's sad.
09:46His actions endangered our troops.
09:48There's no need, there's a need to have a full-scale investigation into SignalGate.
09:54As I described, this could not happen with DODIG.
09:58It must happen in the only place possible, which is in Congress.
10:02I represent 72,000 vets and tens of thousands of active duty personnel in the 7th District of Virginia.
10:08They expect me to stand up for them, and that's exactly what I'm going to do.
10:12We need accountability.
10:13With classified leaks and breaches making headlines and foreign adversaries exploiting every digital weakness they can find,
10:25we cannot afford an outdated approach to safeguarding our nation's secrets.
10:30This amendment simply says that we need to get serious about securing our classified information.
10:36It withholds 75% of OSD's operations and maintenance funding until the Secretary of Defense completes a full review of how classified information is handled across guidance, policy, law, and day-to-day practice.
10:50And it requires the Secretary to certify to this committee that DOD has a real enforceable mechanism in place to stop officials from sending classified information over unapproved apps or devices.
11:02This is basic stuff.
11:05A private that hasn't even made it through basic training would know this OPSEC requirement.
11:11But it's never more urgent than today.
11:13I urge my colleagues to support this amendment, and I yield back.
11:16The gentleman yields back.
11:17The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Nebraska.
11:19Mr. Bacon.
11:19Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11:20I agree with some of the sentiments being shared here today.
11:24I think we should be clear what the Secretary did was wrong, and he should have owned up to it.
11:28I think it was a failure.
11:29But withholding money to the Pentagon, to the OSD, at a time we have a war in Ukraine, we've got to create better deterrence for Taiwan, we still have tremendous hot spots in the Middle East with Iran, and this isn't the time to cut funding to the Pentagon is my point.
11:48I think there's other ways that we could make the sense of this committee known without hobbling the Pentagon's ability to operate when it's needed right now to do so.
11:58So if there's other ways to share our concerns about what the Secretary of Defense did, I'm in.
12:05But I think this is not the appropriate way to do so.
12:07I yield.
12:08Gentleman yields back.
12:09Chairman, I recognize the gentleman from Colorado.
12:10Mr. Crowe.
12:12Thank you, Chairman.
12:13Chairman, I support Mr. Ryan's amendment for the simple reason, as he so eloquently stated, that military leadership is about leadership by example.
12:23You know, we learn from the first day of boot camp that it matters far less what you say and far more what you do, and it's that example that spreads throughout the ranks, that instills a sense of accountability and professionalism.
12:38And it's just so wrong to me that at the very top within the Department of Defense, the Secretary himself is unwilling to take accountability for a massive security breach, a security breach that if a private, if a sergeant, if a major, or if a general had done, would have ultimately and immediately resulted in the discharge from a position, other adverse action.
13:07And yet, at the top, there is no accountability.
13:10And to my colleagues' concern about other options, because some of my colleagues have rightfully agreed with us that this was unacceptable and needs to be fixed and have proposed other options, we have tried other options.
13:23And the ability to fence off funding is a tool of last resort for this committee.
13:28When they're not responding, when they're not coming forth for accountability, when we're not getting traction in other ways, as is the case here, the fencing of funds is the tool that this committee has and has used repeatedly in the past to get that traction and to get action.
13:46And, you know, there are bipartisan examples of this committee and the people that I work with, my Republican colleagues, are joining with us under the last administration to push for fixes.
13:57May I remind my colleagues that when there was an issue and the prior Secretary of Defense was hospitalized and there was a succession of command issue and things weren't done the way they were supposed to be done,
14:08that in a bipartisan way we stood up and said, you know, that was unacceptable and it should be fixed and we pushed back and the administration and the department actually fixed it, it resulted in changes of policy, it resulted in things being done differently now when there's a hospitalization of a cabinet official and there's now notification, there are now checks in place.
14:29That is the way this should work. If there are mistakes or problems, we should come together and say, it's not okay and it needs to be fixed. In this case, there has been no accountability, there have been no fixes.
14:42So I just strongly urge my colleagues to join with us. And again, I would do this regardless of who's sitting in the White House, regardless of who's sitting in the chair at DOD, and I in fact have.
14:56Join with us to do the right thing to make sure that accountability exists at the top, so that all of our service members can see that we are serious about our work. I yield back.
15:07The gentleman yields back, Chair, and I recognize the gentleman from Georgia, Dr. McCormick.
15:11Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think it's somewhat laughable to talk about accountability after the last administration.
15:18When we saw what happened in things overseas, things that are very applicable to my career in Afghanistan, watching the withdrawal, watching the lack of accountability, watching what a $2 trillion and 20-year investment happened, and now talk about accountability.
15:35Let's talk about accountability. We just had a major operation in Iran.
15:39Did anybody hear anything about what was going to happen in Iran before that? Of course not. Results matter.
15:50They talk about the disqualifications of Mr. Hegseth as Secretary. Results matter. Recruiting's up. The military's better off.
15:59We're actually mission-focused instead of focused on what type of person is recruited. We're only looking for warriors.
16:06Results matter.
16:09Results matter. When we have this ridiculous debate over accountability while an IG is investigating and hasn't come up with results, and we're talking about cutting funds before we even know what the results of the investigation is, this is not about accountability.
16:22This is about politicization.
16:24This is about grandstanding and pretending like it has anything to do with mission execution, which I would make an argument, since we had this administration in place, we have done an exceptional job.
16:35Not only with the attack on the Houthis, and you can say there's mistakes made, of course. We learn from those mistakes. We do investigations on purpose. That is accountability, but ultimately, we're about mission accomplishment and results.
16:51With that said, I think this has been the most effective administration in a very long time, and I think this is a ridiculous attempt to embarrass the Secretary, and therefore, I urge my colleagues to vote no.
17:05Gentleman yields back here, and I recognize the gentlelady from New Jersey, Ms. Sherrill.
17:10Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
17:28So, you know, I think it's very concerning to hear from the other side of the aisle that there isn't a focus on accountability, that there shouldn't be any accountability, and I will tell you, especially when it comes to national security, that can never be the case.
17:45I learned early how to properly handle classified information when I was a teenager at the Naval Academy.
17:52I used that knowledge again as I was a Russian policy officer in the Navy, so I'll start with the obvious.
17:58If Secretary Hegseth believed a word he said about turning our military into a meritocracy, he would have sent his resignation in weeks ago.
18:07His decision to send strike plans in multiple unsecured signal chats to his wife, to his brother, to his personal attorney, and to a reporter could have killed American service members.
18:21And he did so while at least one signal chat member was in the Kremlin.
18:27Accountability matters.
18:30But I'm not surprised by his complete disregard for national security and for the safety of our men and women in uniform, because from his views on women in combat to his willingness to bend the knee to Russian dictator Vladimir Putin, we knew exactly who Trump was picking.
18:46That's why I strongly opposed his nomination from the very beginning.
18:50But I will say that I am surprised by some of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle in this room, because every single individual in this room knows that the information Hegseth shared on signal was classified.
19:04Any member of the House Armed Services Committee knows without a doubt that the timing, schedule, and composition of operations are absolutely classified.
19:14Every individual in this room knows that Pete Hegseth's use of signal could have gotten American service members killed.
19:21So even if you haven't served in uniform, you know how to handle classified information by virtue of sitting on this very committee.
19:29We host any hearing with classified information in secure rooms without our phones and without messaging apps like Signal.
19:37Which is why I think it's a dereliction of duty that the majority on this committee has refused to hold any sort of investigative hearing into Hegseth's behavior.
19:47Nearly every Republican in this room has sat back and watched, or even worse, defended Pete Hegseth's behavior.
19:54So I encourage us to rectify that now as we hold the Department of Defense accountable for protecting our national security and our service members' lives.
20:04Which is why I urge you to support this amendment, and I yield back.
20:08Generality yields back, Chair, and I recognize this is a gentlelady from Washington, Mr. Klind.
20:14Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20:16I just want to reiterate what my colleague Congressman Crowe said about this should not be a partisan issue.
20:22It should not matter who's in the White House.
20:24It should not matter who that person appointed.
20:27This was a security breach, and there is a lack of transparency and lack of accountability.
20:32And to my colleagues who said that this is an attempt to embarrass Secretary Hegseth or trying to undermine his credibility,
20:39he does that on his own.
20:41I yield to my colleague, Mr. Ryan from New York.
20:44Thank you, Ms. Strickland, and thank you, Mr. Chair.
20:49You took those last words right out of my mouth.
20:52But I constructively want to thank and recognize my colleague from Nebraska, Mr. Bacon.
20:59You're still the first person in this committee, anyway, that I've heard publicly say a mistake was made.
21:05And I think Mr. Crowe made an important point that when General Austin was here, and I was on the committee,
21:11and he came before us, we all said that to him.
21:13And he took accountability in this room.
21:16And as Mr. Crowe said, he changed actions.
21:20So while I understand the point you're making, Mr. Bacon, about the funding,
21:24that is why this amendment was designed in close coordination with our ranking member,
21:29and I want to thank him for his leadership on this as well,
21:32to not hold back 100% of funding, but specifically 75%.
21:37To allow this supposed IG investigation, which I don't have any confidence what the timeline is,
21:43when is it going to be done, when is it going to be due,
21:45but the amendment is designed specifically to give some time and space for the DoD to continue to do what it needs to do,
21:50to focus on war fighting, lethality and deterrence and everything else,
21:53while finishing this inquiry, which has grave national security implications, with speed and urgency.
22:00And as Mr. Crowe said in closing, we have tried every other option here.
22:06This is not something we wanted to do, not something certainly I took lightly or I know my colleagues,
22:13but given no other option, given an $880 billion budget,
22:18given the lives of service members that we all took an oath to protect and serve,
22:23this is the point that we're at, and it gives us no pleasure to do so.
22:27But I would just ask my colleagues, would one more person on the other side of the aisle in this room right now
22:31be at least willing to say what Mr. Bacon said?
22:35That a mistake was made? Anybody?
22:40Okay.
22:42And with that, Mr. Chair, I yield back.
22:45The gentleman yields back. Chair, I would remind the members to address their comments to the Chair
22:48and not to any other member of the committee.
22:50With that, I recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. Whitesides.
22:54Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
22:56And I thank Mr. Ryan for offering this important amendment which seeks to get to the facts
22:59and the potential breaches of national security information inside the Office of the Secretary of Defense.
23:04And before I begin, I just wanted to make a note about the results that we were just hearing about.
23:09Here are the results of the administration's foreign policy.
23:12The Prime Minister of Canada said Canada's old relationship with the U.S. is over.
23:17Japan just canceled an annual defense and foreign ministers meeting with the U.S.
23:21after it called on Tokyo to change its defense spending.
23:24Australia's Prime Minister has said that the U.S. policy was not the act of a friend.
23:29I would suggest that these are not the results that we're looking for for American foreign policy.
23:34I'm deeply concerned about the possibility that the Secretary of Defense has used non-secure communications
23:40to discuss national security operations.
23:42If this committee is to do its job, it must exercise proper oversight over the Department of Defense.
23:51If the Secretary or anyone entrusted with the need to discuss sensitive ongoing operation,
23:56use Signal or other encrypted apps to conduct classified defense business,
24:00that raises serious legal and operational concerns.
24:03We cannot look the other way.
24:05Secure communications are not optional.
24:07They are foundational to our national security.
24:10The Department of Defense is tasked with safeguarding our most sensitive national security information,
24:14using off-the-books channels, risks exposure to foreign intelligence services,
24:20and violates chain of custody protections for classified data.
24:24And this committee has the right and the responsibility to hold the Secretary accountable.
24:29Imagine the reaction if this was a junior officer.
24:32If a young intelligence officer used Signal to communicate about classified matters,
24:38they'd immediately face disciplinary action, possibly criminal charges.
24:42The standard cannot be different for the Secretary of Defense.
24:46And we all know that funding without facts invites abuse.
24:49Until we get clear, verified information about the extent of the Secretary's use of Signal,
24:54Congress has no business signing off on hundreds of millions of dollars for his office's operations.
24:59That's not restraint, that's due diligence.
25:02Failure to hold the Secretary accountable would constitute a significant failure on the part of this committee
25:07in one of our fundamental roles.
25:09If an appointed Secretary can conduct sensitive communications on private apps without oversight,
25:14we forfeit our oversight ability and risk turning the Pentagon into an unaccountable black box.
25:20This is about cybersecurity and chain of command.
25:24With this amendment, Congress would be insisting that the rules apply to everyone,
25:28and that we are not funding institutional breakdowns in how classified material is managed.
25:33We owe it to our service members and to our allies.
25:37The U.S. leads by example.
25:39If the top of the Pentagon is seen flouting basic security norms,
25:42it erodes trust, from the rank-and-file to NATO partners.
25:46That's unacceptable.
25:48Until we get answers, this committee has to lay a marker down.
25:51We are asking for one thing, the truth.
25:54No spin, no delay, and that's not obstruction.
25:57It's responsible governance.
25:59I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
26:01The gentleman yields back.
26:02Any other members seek recognition of Mr. Ryan's amendment?
26:05Seeing none, there's no further debate.
26:07Question occurs on the amendment offered by Mr. Ryan.
26:09Somebody who's in favor will say aye.
26:11Aye.
26:12Those opposed, no.
26:13No.
26:14The no's have it.
26:15The amendment's not agreed to.
26:16A recorded vote is requested.
26:18A recorded vote is requested.
26:19A recorded vote will be postponed until a later time.
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