00:00We'll now move to five minutes of questioning from our committee members.
00:06I'll begin with Mr. Morrison.
00:09During your time as Prime Minister, China issued a now infamous list of 14 grievances
00:16targeting Australia's domestic laws and sovereign decisions.
00:20What should that list tell us about the nature of PRC coercion
00:24and the kinds of values it seeks to undermine in democracies?
00:30Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:32I think fundamentally it demonstrates that the CCP fundamentally has a problem
00:39with representative democracies and there are some irreconcilable differences
00:44between an authoritarian regime in China as much as an authoritarian regime in Russia or Iran for that matter
00:54and the activities of free and open states.
01:00Prime Minister Abe, Ambassador to know well and I knew well also, spoke of a free and open Indo-Pacific.
01:08That is a threat and a challenge to regime security in China.
01:13And I think we have to be clear-eyed about this and not pretend that there is somehow
01:18that this is going to be resolved through discussion.
01:22Discussion is fine.
01:23Engagement is good.
01:24It's better than the alternative.
01:26But if we think that that is going to produce a change in the mindset in Beijing about what their objectives are,
01:35then we're frankly kidding ourselves.
01:36So you worked to coexist, to avoid conflict.
01:41That requires deterrence and a wide-eyed appreciation of what the Chinese state is all about.
01:47At every point, even the most moderate of their leaders, like Jiang Zemin,
01:52were very clear about the fact that even when they entered most favoured nation status,
01:57they still said amongst their officials that the West, particularly the United States,
02:03is still looking to see us destroy our socialist system.
02:08They won't change.
02:09So we have to deal with that reality.
02:12What advice would you give to leaders of other countries who are facing something like this?
02:19I think the first one is to know what you believe in and why your country believes that
02:23and know what your red lines are.
02:26I mean, those 14 points of grievances that they tabled,
02:30I remember I tabled them at a G7 meeting in Carbis Bay to all the G7 leaders.
02:35It was a G7-plus meeting.
02:38And I asked the simple question, which of you would relent on any of these points?
02:43And the answer was none.
02:46These are just the simple behaviours of transparent representative democracies
02:51with market-based economies.
02:54And so know that you believe those things.
02:56Keep investing in those things and understand what the red lines are
02:59that are produced by holding those beliefs.
03:03The other thing I would say is make sure that you're building your internal resilience to coercion.
03:08And that you mentioned in your opening remarks, Mr Chairman,
03:11that a whole-of-society approach is necessary.
03:14I completely, 100% agree.
03:16And our response dealt with everything from interference in our political system
03:22through ensuring that we kept an open mic for free speech in our parliaments and media and so on.
03:28You need to build the internal resilience,
03:31and that means an appreciation of the potential threat.
03:34And that is somewhat in jeopardy in Australia.
03:36Most recently, the Lowy Institute completed a survey,
03:39which for the first time in quite a number of years,
03:42there is a greater value on the economic partnership with China
03:47than concerns about the security threat.
03:50And I'll table that for the committee.
03:53That is an objective of the CCP,
03:57that Western democracies will go to sleep on the threat.
04:01And that's why I think the work that your committee is doing here,
04:05the work, and I'd stress the bipartisan work that is done by this committee,
04:10and the ambassador and I perhaps might disagree on some elements of policy.
04:16Not sure.
04:17We'll have to have a beer and find out.
04:19But I know one thing.
04:22By our statements here today, I think we've sung from the same song sheet
04:25as indeed you and the ranking member have.
04:28Thank you very much.
04:29Ambassador, I'd like to follow up on your testimony
04:34where you talk about basically an Article V economic,
04:39sort of a collective defense mechanism.
04:41Could you talk a little bit more about that idea?
04:44Sure.
04:45Two kind of predicate moments.
04:47One is how the EU came to Lithuania's defense,
04:51and China realized Europe was bigger than Lithuania,
04:54and it was too much.
04:57The second piece is when the G7 was held in Japan when I was ambassador.
05:05There was an adoption, or the first time actually in the communique,
05:10a reference to coercion by China in some effort.
05:12So you have the two predicates.
05:14And then I suppose the third point is I do mean this.
05:18When you look at Korea, you look at Japan, you look at the Philippines,
05:21Australia is the best kind of blueprint of what you want to replicate worldwide.
05:27They did it on their own.
05:29The prime minister is much greater at this and more knowledgeable,
05:32but basically used their existing trade relationships,
05:35their existing alliances, and put them on steroids and really operate.
05:39And China realized they couldn't isolate Australia,
05:43which is why I call you want to isolate the isolator.
05:45Article 5 is the equip because it basically goes to the exact vulnerability of China's strategy.
05:52Their strategy is to take it in Australia or take it in Japan and make an example out of them.
05:58And everybody should stand by and not only not want to go where Japan is,
06:02but let it happen.
06:04And then it's not just Japan, but its audience is much larger.
06:07If everybody got together and had a collective self-defense,
06:11which is what Article 5 would basically indicate,
06:16the basic premise of China's coercion unfolds and it reverberates.
06:22In every case, and I don't want to overplay the role that I play,
06:25but in the ban on Chinese seafood, the ban on Korean products or tourism,
06:32the ban on multiple products out of Australia,
06:35in the end of the day, China threw in the towel when everybody could work,
06:41either their economic relationships or political strategic relationships,
06:45so they were not isolated.
06:46So the Article 5 builds off of that basic premise.
06:50And I think that is what we need right now because we have to eliminate what,
06:56as I said in the opening statement,
06:58is the most persistent and pernicious tool in their economic state, correct?
07:02Thank you very much.
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