00:00Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Let's continue our discussion about the
00:1513th Malaysia Plan, which was tabled in Parliament last week. We're zooming in on the policy roadmap
00:22that's been outlined specifically for education and human capital development. Joining me on the
00:28show now is Professor Moses Samuel, who's Senior Research Fellow with the School of Education at
00:32Taylor's University. He's also an Honorary Professor at University of Malaysia's Faculty of Education.
00:39Prof Moses, thank you so much for being on the show with me today. Was there anything in the
00:4313th Malaysia Plan that you thought might be a game changer for education and for building
00:49Malaysia's human capital? Well, I want to step back a little bit. And I think when we look at
00:55Malaysia plans, we must realize they are five year plans. And they were built on the old Soviet
01:01style development plans. That's good in a sense, because it offers a medium term or slightly long
01:09term perspective. What it doesn't do is it doesn't because of the time span, it doesn't deal with
01:21mid-flight changes. You know, I'm thinking of an analogy of an aeroplane that's flying to a destination.
01:28There are mid-flight changes that you take to deal with turbulences and so on. And this is especially
01:36critical now, because we're dealing with a period of uncertainty, economic uncertainty, on the one hand,
01:45and also technological change, which is happening so fast, you can't predict what's going to happen in
01:51five years. Two years might be a more realistic target. And especially when technology seems to be
02:01part of the education, part of the blueprints. I think this is something that we need to take into
02:07account, especially when you're dealing with the training of teachers. So in a period of rapid change
02:14all around, I think the five-year targets are good. But there must also be, well, planners need to take
02:23cognizance of how you can tweak and monitor what's going on. That's my take on Malaysia plans.
02:34Right. You're right. It is kind of a long period for something as quickly evolving as the education
02:47system. Can we talk a little bit about some of the things that the plan got right in terms of its
02:54vision for the education system of Malaysia over the five years? Was there anything that you thought
03:00really stood out to you in saying, okay, it's good that we've got this on the table now,
03:04that we're thinking about these issues? Well, one of the things I think that the plan is trying to
03:11address is access to education right throughout the system. And I like the systemic kind of an approach,
03:19making sure people have a head start in education with early childhood education,
03:25specific sectors like the Orang Asli, you know, rural schools, rural teachers. So I think in a sense,
03:37it's got the access dimension right. I mean, it's good to focus on it. Of course, the challenges are in
03:43terms of the granularity, how it's implemented. Yeah. So I think that's one challenge that is obvious.
03:54It alludes to a number of things, the emphasis on looking at professional development of teachers,
04:02that is alluded to in the plan, without details being fleshed out. We're also seeing emphasis on
04:11preschool education, you know, starting at the age of five, the emphasis on AI, which is new in terms of
04:22curriculum. The emphasis on STEM, the emphasis on multiple languages in primary school. So a number of
04:31things they have touched the right buttons, I would put it that way. Having said that, I think the devil is
04:40always in the details in terms of how it's implemented, how it's carried out, how it's operationalized on the
04:46ground. So I'm happy that at least there is acknowledgement of important areas that we need to work on.
04:55And of course, I'm cautiously optimistic about how the program is going to play out in the next five years.
05:04So how do you think this might fit into, because we're also expecting a new education blueprint,
05:11which is a longer term blueprint. How, as you said, the devil is in the details, but how do you think that,
05:19or what do you think the blueprint ought to be, ought to flash these buttons out, do you think?
05:30Well, two broad areas. One is the school system, from kindergarten right through form five SPM.
05:39And also there's the higher education sector, which is also referred to.
05:44Um, as far as the school level is concerned, I think, um, what we will hope to see now is how teachers
05:54are empowered and provided agency to deal with many of the challenges that are, in a sense, new in a
06:01changing environment. How do you deal with artificial intelligence? Uh, how do you deal with, um, preschool
06:10education? Um, you know, so it's, it's a question of teacher preparedness and continuous professional
06:16development. I think that is something that we're going to expect right through the school system.
06:21Right. Yeah. Okay. You mentioned higher education, um, and the 13th Malaysia Plan also talks about
06:28reforms for tertiary education in terms of, um, the ministry's portfolio, kind of the segregation or
06:35demarcation of that. Also talked a little bit about piloting autonomy for public universities,
06:41um, and also improving global competitiveness. Can I ask you, Professor Moses, what you think,
06:46whether you think those are the right, um, buttons to hit? Uh, yeah. Do you think these changes are
06:53going to be sufficient to address some of the structural issues that we know plague the higher education system?
06:59Well, it's a good first step, I think, to recognize this. Um, I think these are issues that were even
07:06highlighted in the previous higher education blueprint, but there remain a lot of issues even
07:11from that blueprint to now where we're at. And the first issue I can think of is governance issues in
07:19terms of higher ed. Um, there needs to be clear demarcation between the roles of the ministry of higher
07:28education and the emerging autonomous universities. There seems to be a role overlap. Um, and I can
07:38understand why this is so because public universities, for example, are funded by public funds. Um, and
07:45therefore, um, the ministry of higher education often gets to call the shots because they are,
07:51uh, they hold the purse strings, you know, um, and incidentally, this might result in political
07:59interference in terms of shaping the cost of higher education. Um, so I think that's one issue that has
08:06to be ironed out, uh, to reduce the kind of overlaps and to see what autonomy really means, um, and how that
08:15autonomy actually is tied to the national agenda, the national development agenda. I mean, that's one of
08:23the things about public universities, especially at the undergrad level where you're providing human
08:29capital development for the population. And, um, it has to be tied very closely to emerging sectors of
08:38growth and how it serves the national agenda while at the same time contributing to scholarship,
08:43international scholarship, you know, however that may take us. So it's a question of, um,
08:50deciding to strike a balance between these two things.
08:53Right. That's really interesting. Can you talk to me more about that? Because when we look at, um,
08:59a roadmap for developing Malaysia's human capital, if that is the goal, then what's missing from this
09:06broader vision? I'm just wondering whether, like you said, uh, are we aligned with some, the,
09:11the, the, the shifts that may happen during this time, jobs that may not even exist yet? Uh, are we looking
09:18at it as a whole of government approach or is this solely resting on the shoulders of higher education, uh,
09:26or, you know, and universities?
09:27Yeah. Um, couple of issues there. One of course is, um, whether the graduates that come out of the higher ed system,
09:37uh, fit into the emerging workplace. Uh, there's been a recent report, um, by Kazana,
09:45a report that's called Shifting Tides, which shows that many graduates who are coming out of the system
09:52are starting with very low salaries. You know, um, I was looking at the statistics, 66% earned below
10:002000, this was 2021 figures, uh, 10% earn over 3000. Um, so they're under, underemployed and very often
10:11there isn't a fit between the kind of specializations that they have developed and the kind of work that
10:16they're doing. Um, and these things haven't changed in the last decade, haven't changed very much in the
10:22last decade. So the system needs to sort of respond so that graduates are future ready. Graduates are
10:30ready for the new workplace. Um, and that's changing very fast, you know? Um, so that's one, one area
10:37that needs to be looked at. There are many things that higher ed can do, um, exploring internships, for
10:43example, um, looking at different kinds of systems, looking at TVET related higher ed. Um, TVET very
10:52often is, uh, a second option, uh, or it's perceived that way, at least in the public, uh, public size.
10:59So the question of how higher education might have a vocational focus, um, for TVET as well,
11:08so that there isn't this kind of two tier system. Um, and that requires different universities with
11:15different strengths and different specializations to deal with it on, on their own terms. You know,
11:23um, I think the big picture from MOHI might be a guiding, might provide guiding light, but I think
11:30universities with their academics, with their different areas of specializations, all universities
11:36don't have to be the same. They have different strengths. You know, I mean, we tend to think in
11:40terms of, uh, monitoring things so that it's one size fits all. I mean, each university can develop
11:45their own strengths, you know, either in applied sciences or the social sciences or whatever issues
11:51they're dealing with, um, based on the staff that they have developed, both the local and international
11:58staff. So staff develop expertise in terms of research. Um, and I think that's one thing that can be
12:05done. So it's, one is the fit employability, the fit to the real workplace. The other issue I can see
12:13emerging in higher ed is the kind of gulf that's emerging between research universities and teaching
12:22universities. And I think research is very often interest, concerned about advancing the frontiers of
12:30knowledge. But a lot of those, a lot of the work that's done in research can actually dovetail with
12:38more teaching universities. And I think what we can see is more collaborations, um, not coordinated from
12:45the top. I mean, I, sometimes we might expect a hidden hand to, to manage it, but I think developing it in
12:51terms of, you know, ways in which the research agendas of the universities can actually drive the teaching
12:57agenda so that teaching universities also benefit from the research as consumers, not necessarily as
13:04producers, but also as consumers of this research.
13:07Very interesting points that you've given us to think about tonight. Uh, Prof, thank you so much for
13:13sharing some of your insights with us. Educationist Professor Moses Samuel from Taylor's University
13:18and University of Malaya. Wrapping up this episode of Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris,
13:23signing off for the evening. Thank you so much for watching and good luck.
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