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The head of the International Atomic Energy Agency recently made a comment that Singapore is ready to adopt nuclear power, and could do so, possibly in collaboration with its ASEAN neighbours. Rafael Grossi, Director-General of the IA-EA, believes the Republic is “prepared” to host nuclear power, citing its institutional maturity and decarbonisation goals. But what would nuclear readiness actually look like—for Singapore, and for the wider region? On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Meena Raman, President of Sahabat Alam Malaysia.
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00:00Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris. Let's continue our discussion about the
00:25growing optimism around nuclear power in Singapore and also around the region in Southeast Asia.
00:33But how does this all align with Malaysia's energy realities? Well, joining me on the show now to
00:39discuss this further is Meena Rahman, who's the president of Sahabat Ala Malaysia. Meena, so the
00:44head of the IAEA said that he believes Singapore and potentially ASEAN is relatively prepared to
00:51adopt nuclear energy. I'm just wondering how we should interpret this in Malaysia's context. Do
00:56you think that Malaysia should also be preparing for that step? Well, it seems that the government
01:03is Melissa. In fact, I just heard the prime minister on the 13th Malaysia plan, he was talking about
01:09nuclear energy. And yesterday, I think we also heard the minister from the Ministry of Science
01:14and Technology saying the same. They said that they had done some pre-feasibility study,
01:21none of us have seen it, no consultations have taken place. So we are really, really very worried,
01:27particularly civil society and the public, of course. And we have a history of dealing with
01:36not nuclear power, but much more about radioactive waste, which is a consequence of nuclear energy and
01:44nuclear power. So this is why our alarm bells are all ringing. And we're very, very concerned and very,
01:50very upset, really, by this trend and this push, which is coming not only to Malaysia, but worldwide.
01:58Okay, so what would you say then, if the government, you know, makes this more explicit in their
02:06intentions and engages civil society like Sabah al-Malaysia, what is it that you would raise to
02:14them when you say you are concerned? Well, actually, ideally, we would all like to see the pre-feasibility
02:20study. Of course, that's not going to be made public, because we really want to know what the basis is for
02:27embarking on this. I think the point here is that we all know that nuclear power or nuclear energy
02:34has got very bad public perception. But most recently, of course, from the Fukushima disaster
02:43in Japan in 2011, and before that, the Chernobyl disaster, where you see that when an accident happens,
02:51the catastrophic risks and deaths and cancers, and which we are still understanding is appearing
02:58today, even in Russia, even in Ukraine, all due to the Chernobyl disaster. So, and we in Malaysia also,
03:07if you remember, I personally, as a young lawyer, was involved in the Asian rare case in Bukit Maranipo
03:14in relation to not nuclear power, but radioactive waste disposal. And as I said,
03:19the nuclear power will be generated through the import, by the way, of uranium. And uranium is
03:27a radioactive material which will be in the environment for thousands and millions of years,
03:34Melissa. It's not, you know, 10, 20 years. It's for millions of years. It's really the longevity,
03:40longevity. Oh, my English is wrong there. But the long term scale of this is what we are really
03:47worried about. So, coming back to the Asian rare earth case as a young lawyer, when we were dealing
03:52with that case where you had Mitsubishi Chemicals together with this company, radioactive waste being
03:57stored. And then, you know, we saw high incidences of health problems. We have documented them in terms
04:05of cancers, leukemias, mothers miscarrying. So, that reality is still in our minds. People are still
04:12suffering, the onslaught of what had happened in 1985 and thereabouts. So, also, we know of this,
04:21the Linus Waste Disposal, which is now in Gepeng, Pahang. We've also been involved in that. Lots of local
04:30communities have been protesting there. And this is about the storing of thorium for billions of years. So,
04:37radioactive waste management is really the most critical problem. So, where are we going to store
04:44the waste? How are we going to keep it for thousands and millions of years? And the other thing, of course,
04:50is really the long term nature of the deployment of this energy. I mean, why do you want to go into a
04:58high risk energy source when you have cheaper alternatives with low risk like solar, you know,
05:05and even mini micro hydros? There are other options, cheap energy efficiency approaches. So,
05:13why do we want to go for this big risky which will take a long time? Because I understand that it takes
05:21about 20 years at least to come on stream and then you have so much of risk and if an accident takes
05:28place, the colossal risks are really plentiful.
05:32Mina, how do you balance, so you are a climate advocate, climate activist. How do you balance the argument that
05:41all of this is part of the net zero journey? All of this is part of the energy transition that countries
05:47need to be part of the decarbonisation of their economy? How do you justify that or make sense of that argument of using nuclear power?
05:56Well, I think the first thing we need to expose the myth really that all countries have to go
06:03net zero. This is something that I have spoken out very much before. The Paris Agreement talks about
06:09a global net zero. It talks about balancing the global emissions which sinks globally by mid-century.
06:15And then what happened was in Glasgow at the Glasgow COP in 2022, suddenly there was an announcement that
06:21all countries are called to do net zero by 2050. Actually, so there is no Paris Agreement commitment
06:29to do that. It's just a call. Secondly, I think we also need to understand that we have to increase our
06:34sinks. That's our forests, our wetlands, our sequestration, our biodiversity conservation. So, if you want to
06:42balance and you talk about net zero, the emissions can be, of course, we have to transition and we are
06:48upscaling a lot on solar. Do we understand also there's a lot of potential with energy conservation?
06:54And so, why don't we, why are we not doing this, you know, in terms of what is really needed in a
07:04low carbon path? And by the way, Malaysia's emissions, which is something that I always stress,
07:09is only less than one percent of global emissions. So, I don't think it's such a huge problem. Of course,
07:19our per capita emissions are high and we have to do more, but I always look at this like, you know,
07:24you want to swat a fly with a huge machine gun. I mean, it doesn't make sense at all. So,
07:33so there's a lot that says that, you know, the cost factor of nuclear energy and the radioactive waste
07:40management is a problem. And, you know, I, I, if, if there are ministers and whoever say that, you know,
07:47not a problem, I'd say put the waste in Putrajaya. I mean, you know, I don't think we can take this
07:56attitude of don't worry if we will take care of it. Maybe the last point I'll make is that Malaysia
08:01doesn't have a good safety record. You remember the Petronas gas pipeline explosion in Putra Heights.
08:12We were shocked. Petronas is a top tier company. And yet we had a massive explosion and you look at,
08:17luckily nobody passed away, nobody died, but the damage was quite severe. And we've had many
08:24disasters like landslides and we've had disasters like Sungai Kim Kim and the pollution and, you know,
08:31mining disasters. So we're not exactly, and of course, I talked about the Asian rare earth case.
08:36We're not exactly a country that is, you know, if you have the authorities say, don't worry, we have,
08:42we've taken account into the, of all the risks we can mitigate, but you're talking about radioactive
08:49waste, which would remain in the environment for millions and billions of years. Anyone can guarantee
08:56safety for such a long term? The proponents of nuclear argue that it has been done in other
09:02countries, that it has been done safely. There's a track record and that the science has progressed
09:08over the years. So we're no longer talking about old technology, nuclear technology, but more recent,
09:14more advanced with a track record of managing waste, of managing operations. How would you respond to the
09:22people who say we are now at the technological level of having safe nuclear power?
09:27Not from what I have read. I'm not convinced. And I think we, this is coming back to precaution,
09:34right? I mean, although the technology may have advanced and they are talking about,
09:39um, you know, the, the modular reactors, the smaller modular reactors. And what we understand
09:44is that the modular reactors, the problems themselves are that you, there is still the waste issue.
09:50You still have to deal with the waste issue. Just because it's small doesn't mean that the waste problem
09:55goes away. The waste problem remains in the environment. So I think for us as the public,
10:01how are we going to deal with the waste? And this is a question we need to put to the government.
10:06Where are you going to site these disposal facilities? How are you going to keep it? How,
10:12can anyone tell me that don't worry, we can guarantee safety for millions of years? I don't think even
10:19God can give us that assurance, let alone our government. So we don't, I don't, we don't buy
10:26that. So I think the point is that you take a precautionary approach. Yes, there are challenges.
10:31We have to meet our energy needs in, in, and, but I'm saying there are options. It's not that we don't
10:38have options. Yeah. Yeah. So this is the problem. Yeah. Meena, as you said that, um, the government
10:44has shown some inclination to pursue this. Do you, are you worried that putting all this attention,
10:51uh, investing attention and money into nuclear power could actually divert the much needed funding and
10:57attention away from renewables, for instance? Absolutely. Absolutely. And of course, don't forget the sinks.
11:04How can we increase the sinks and the biodiversity in the forest, which will bring multiple benefits.
11:09Then you are not only talking about the climate challenge, you're also meeting the, you know,
11:13biodiversity challenge, all that. So the money could be better, better spent in doing cheaper,
11:19affordable, low risks technology and increasing our sinks at the same time while, um, approaching,
11:27um, you know, the, the low carbon pathway. And, and the other thing is all this, um,
11:33ecosystem based approaches will actually increase our resilience, by the way, you will be, you will
11:39be really climate resilient. I mean, what the impacts of climate change are phenomenal. That's the other
11:43thing, all this promise of this new technology and so on. I understand that there is a lot more heating,
11:50um, of the ocean, a lot more heating of the river water. These are very important for cooling
11:56the nuclear power plants. The nuclear power plants need water, but then you have these climate,
12:01climate uncertainties, which are not taken into account. And so this is the problem. I don't think
12:08we are looking at it in a much more comprehensive way. And my angst and my appeal to the government,
12:14really, you do need to have public consultation on this. Don't keep saying that we have looked at it.
12:21We've got two 20 or 25 or a hundred scientists. We don't buy that because we want transparency,
12:29good governance and democratic consultation is absolutely critical. And the Madani government
12:34keeps saying this, but I think it's about time. We test this with this. We want to see it before they
12:40rush through the amendments of the atomic energy licensing act in parliament. I understand they want to do it
12:46the dissenting. I mean, yes, I, I read that the minister, well, the media reports say that the
12:52minister was saying they're waiting for cabinet approval to do the amendments to the law. Now,
12:57how can you do this? This is such a public issue that, uh, we need to get much more information,
13:06much more transparency in this. And really at the end of the day, in whose backyard are you going to be
13:13burying these ways? I think that's the question. I will leave it at that. Meena, thank you so much
13:19for being on the show with me. Meena Rama from Sahaba ala Malaysia, wrapping up this episode of
13:24Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening. Thanks for watching. Good night.
13:38you
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