- 7 months ago
In this India First special broadcast, the focus is on the United States designating The Resistance Front (TRF), a Pakistan-based proxy of Lashkar-e-Taiba, as a Foreign Terrorist Organisation.
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00:00Good evening. The United States has designated a Pakistan-based terrorist organization called the Resistance Front, a proxy of the UN-designated banned terrorist organization Lashkar-e-Taiba and a foreign terrorist organization specially designated global terrorist.
00:17Now, this designation comes clearly and nearly three months after the Resistance Front claimed responsibility for the April 22 massacre in Pehelgham, 26 civilians. All Hindus and Christians were massacred at point-blank range. So, this is a big win for India's diplomacy. But then, there are also some very uncomfortable questions that India and the United States must ask.
00:47Massive diplomatic win for India.
00:58TRF branded terror group by US.
01:09Pehelgham's butchers deemed terrorists.
01:12Pakistani army's role behind bloodbath exposed.
01:25Operation Sindhu diplomacy strikes big.
01:33Will US end double standards on terror?
01:36Terroristan's reality hits Trump. That is our top focus on India First.
01:48The US Department of State has designated the Resistance Front a foreign terrorist organization. But what does this actually mean on ground? What will it lead to?
01:59So, it may freeze funds of Lashkar-e-Taiba's front. But then remember when Lashkar-e-Taiba was banned, it changed its name first to Jamaat-ud-Dawa, then Falayat and Saniyat Foundation and it continued to dodge legal action and continue to spread terror.
02:14So, today, the Resistance Front, if it's designated a terrorist organization, they may change their name, for example, to Pakistan Peace Foundation.
02:23And they'll continue to spread terror.
02:25What's the way out of this? We'll debate that.
02:28Will US act against the sponsors of these terrorists and especially the sponsor-in-chief of terrorists, which is Pakistan's failed marshal, Aasim Munir, instead of supping with the devil?
02:40We explore that. Coming up at 8.30, a very special India Today broadcast on the modernization of India's artillery, including hypersonic artillery shells.
02:52What India is now doing is mating old guns with new technology, with the latest technology as part of Atmanirbhar Bharat in artillery.
03:02That big Atmanirbhar artillery boom comes up at 8.30 tonight. I'm Gaurav Savant. As always, let's get started with the headlines on India First.
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03:31Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the issue of the NGT.
03:33Prime Minister Narendra Modi on the issue of the NGT.
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03:46Tainted Justice Verma moves Supreme Court on the Cash Hall report
03:56Seeps to quash the impeachment recommendation
03:59Alleges his rights have been infringed
04:02Enforcement directed arrests former Chhattisgarh Chief Minister
04:12Bhupesh Bhagel's son in the liquor scam
04:17ED sources say Chaitanya got 2,100 crore rupees as proceeds of crime
04:25Yogi Adityanath bats for Kaveriyas amidst the ruckus report
04:34Yogi Thais Kaveriyas are being defamed, being called hooligans
04:42U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio today announced the designation of the Resistance Front as a foreign terrorist organization
04:56Secretary Rubio described the TRF as a front and proxy of the Pakistan-based terrorist organization Lashkar-e-Taiba
05:03Which incidentally is already listed as a terrorist group
05:06Both by the United States and by the United Nations
05:10Secretary Rubio insists now this action
05:13According to the United States
05:15Demonstrate U.S. President Donald Trump administration's commitment
05:18To protection of U.S. national security interests
05:21Countering terrorism and enforcing President Trump's call for justice
05:25For the Pehelgam attack
05:27Government of India has welcomed this decision of the United States of America
05:31However, the big question is
05:34What's the meaning of this designation
05:36If the U.S. President is inviting Pakistan's terrorist-in-chief
05:41Failed Marshal Asim Munir to the White House for a meal
05:45And actually, the U.S. is working on
05:49At least with Pakistan
05:50That's what reports from Pakistan indicate
05:52Modernization of a terrorist state's army
05:55Hours after terrorists gunned down 26 people in Pehelgam on April 22nd
06:09The Resistance Front or the TRF claimed responsibility for the attack
06:13The TRF, also known as the Kashmir Resistance
06:17However, denied involvement days later
06:19As tensions escalated between India and Pakistan
06:23The U.S. State Department has now designated the TRF
06:27A shadow outfit of Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba
06:30As a foreign terrorist organization
06:32And specially designated global terrorist
06:35Designating an organization as a foreign terror organization
06:40Makes financing, aiding, advising
06:43And helping such organizations a crime under the U.S. law
06:46The U.S. called Pehelgam the deadliest attack on civilians in India
06:51Since 2008 Mumbai attacks by the Lashkar
06:54The TRF is earlier claimed responsibility
06:57For several attacks against Indian security forces
07:00The designation of TRF is a terrorist outfit
07:04Is a diplomatic win for New Delhi
07:06And a blow to Islamabad
07:07As it comes days after President Donald Trump
07:10Hosted Pakistan Army Chief General Asim Munir
07:13For lunch at the White House
07:15India welcomed the U.S. decision to designate TRF
07:19As a terrorist group
07:20Reiterating India's zero tolerance to terror
07:23I've spent most of my life
07:28In the world of diplomacy
07:30And in diplomacy
07:33You are negotiating all the time
07:36And to negotiate
07:39You have to really out-prepare
07:42And out-think your competitors
07:46The families of Pehelgam terror attack victims
07:50Also hailed the move by U.S.
07:52The decision has really made us very happy
07:59From past so many years
08:02India used to tell that all the Pakistani organizations
08:05They are all terrorist organizations
08:08Even now the Trump government is also of the same view
08:11This is a very good and safe way
08:15The U.S. government is very happy
08:16The government has made us very happy
08:17The government has made us very happy
08:18The government has made us very happy
08:20Just two months ago, Pakistan's Foreign Minister Ishigdar had claimed success in altering the
08:34Human Security Council press statement on the Pahlgaam terror attack by removing any
08:39mention of TRF.
08:41But with the US blacklisting the TRF, Islamabad will find it tough to explain their support
08:46for the terrorist organization.
08:51Now when United States has named and shamed TRF, designating it as a special designated
08:58global terror outfit, Pakistan is exposed once again.
09:03India has welcomed the move, saying that it shows that how India and United States share
09:08strong ties when it comes to counter-terrorism.
09:11This is Shivani Sharma with camera person Ashwini Helen for India Today from New Delhi.
09:16So what does the designation of the resistance front as a foreign terrorist organization
09:20actually mean?
09:21What does it entail?
09:23What if the TRF calls itself, let's say from tomorrow, Pakistan Peace Foundation and then
09:28continues to spread terror?
09:30Because terrorist organizations have repeatedly changed their name in Pakistan, they continue
09:34to spread terror.
09:35And does this smack of US double standards ban the TRF and yet sup with the devil failed
09:42Marshal Aasem Munir?
09:43Let's try and make sense of these developments and of course discuss the road ahead for India
09:47in a war on Pakistan state-sponsored radical Islamist terror.
09:51Joining me on this India First special broadcast is General Atta Hasnain, former general officer
09:56commanding of the Kashmir Corps.
09:57He is someone who has dealt with Pakistan terror first-hand, Ambassador Kamal Sibbal, former
10:02Foreign Secretary of India.
10:04He has also been India's ambassador to Russia, Turkey, Egypt and France.
10:08Sir, welcome.
10:10Also with us from the United States is Professor Andrew Latham, Professor of International Relations
10:14at the Macalester University.
10:16He is an expert analyst on international relations, regional conflict and security.
10:21Ambassador Sibbal, how should India view this designation of the resistance front as a foreign
10:26terrorist organization and the timing of this designation?
10:30Well, it's a bit surprising because while the United States and others, including China,
10:37condemned the attack in Pahlgahm, but they did not name the resistance front as responsible
10:44for this, much less acknowledging that the resistance front actually was Pakistan-based.
10:51In the UN Security Council, the Pakistanis claim, perhaps not wrongly, that there was an initiative to name the resistance front,
11:02but they got the name eliminated because of its linkage with Pakistan.
11:07At the same time, as you have rightly pointed out, notwithstanding what happened in Pahlgahm,
11:14the fact that we have a Mullah, a rabid Islamist, now the Field Marshal of Pakistan, he was invited
11:21to a special lunch by President Trump, who praised the leadership of Pakistan, knowing and in fact,
11:29acknowledging that the real leadership was the military leadership.
11:32So, in that sense, he was absolving Field Marshal Munir and the Pakistan army and Pakistan itself in general
11:41from any responsibility for what happened at Pahlgahm.
11:47Now you have, you know, the resistance front being designated as a terrorist organization and an internationally designated group,
12:00which is good, which puts pressure on Pakistan, because the subtext is known to all that this organization is based in Pakistan.
12:11So, without naming Pakistan, the message is clear, which is why the Pakistani foreign ministry has reacted extremely sharply.
12:18In fact, the tone is despicable. I mean, calling India a rogue nation and saying that we are going to exploit this,
12:26this designation to our ends and saying that Pakistan has zero tolerance of terrorism and complete nonsense like that.
12:36No, that's a farce.
12:37Because nying is their second nature.
12:39Absolutely.
12:41Now, the other point which we must note is, without getting too enthusiastic about this, though we must welcome this,
12:46is that it's not as if this is the first time terrorist organizations in Pakistan have been designated as an international terrorist organization
12:55and individuals too by the relevant UN committee.
12:59This has been going on for years.
13:01But has that ended terrorism in Pakistan or has that led to Pakistan being declared some sort of a terrorist state or sanctions on Pakistan?
13:09Yes, they were put on the FTF, but they were removed from the FTF.
13:13Now, this will give us a handle actually what has happened is to again demand that we put back on the FTF and therefore exploit it as much as we can.
13:23But we should not get enthusiastic as if naming this organization solves a terrorist problem because Pakistan, as from the statement you can see, is totally in denial.
13:38It indeed is, Prof. Latham, there are commentators in India who say that US action actually smacks of double standards and blatant double standards.
13:52They designate TRF a terrorist organization and yet they sub with Pakistan's terrorist in chief Aasem Munir.
13:59Pakistan Army, as you well know, is the fountainhead of terror and has been involved in the killing of American troops in Afghanistan.
14:09Yes, and I think we need to bear in mind that there are multiple and cross-cutting and sometimes incompatible interests that the Trump administration is pursuing.
14:21On the one hand, there's a residual counter-terrorism, 9-11 thing.
14:25That's dropped way down in terms of American foreign policy priorities in recent years, but it's still there.
14:31And so that's what's one motivator.
14:33Another motivator is to avoid a nuclear war on the subcontinent.
14:38And you know how President Trump thinks, the art of the deal.
14:41He wrote a book or it was ghost written for him, I suppose.
14:44And the logic, you'd think he would have been disabused of this logic given his interactions with Vladimir Putin.
14:51But his approach seems to be, let's be friends, let me be buddies with everybody around the table.
14:57Even if they've committed crimes and they're on the wrong side, I can do a deal with them.
15:02So there's a little bit of that going on.
15:04Thirdly, I think there's a third or fourth, the United States really, really wants Pakistan to be on Team USA.
15:14But more than that, it wants India to be on Team USA in the global struggle, great power competition with China.
15:22And so you can see how these are cross-cutting imperatives and they're not easily reconciled.
15:27And it looks like hypocrisy.
15:29And in fact, it's caused the wheels of government to grind even more exceedingly slowly than they usually do.
15:35This government has taken, what, three weeks, a month to issue this statement.
15:40But it's not at all surprising to me, maybe just because I'm an immigrant to this country and I see it through the same eyes as you guys do from the outside,
15:49even though I'm on the inside.
15:52It's very hard to reconcile all of these.
15:54The scary piece in all of this is we learned some lessons during the Cold War.
15:59The US and the Soviet Union fought proxy wars, but they never, ever, ever attacked each other.
16:05They never did that.
16:06No US soldier.
16:07There were movies about this, Hunt for Red October and things like that.
16:10But they never did it because it could easily spiral out of control.
16:14And that's what two countries that are a world apart, the Soviet Union and the United States,
16:18are not neighbors.
16:20They're not neck and neck the way India and Pakistan are.
16:23And so, Pakistan's, with government support, L-E-T and then TRF, its proxy, perpetrating these attacks in a very sensitive part of the subcontinent,
16:35as you and your viewers know, is begging for escalation that could easily end.
16:41And yet, India was able to control it.
16:43You know, because I don't want the world to continue falling for this nuclear escalation bogey.
16:49That's a Pakistan trap.
16:50And under which Pakistan continues to spread terror.
16:54And Operation Sindur would have disabused the world, one would have thought.
16:58But General Hasnen, will the designation of TRF as a terrorist organization have any impact on the situation?
17:05Now, inside Jammu and Kashmir, they may try.
17:08But overall, what's your assessment of the designation and the US actions?
17:13God, I have a very fine question, no doubt.
17:16And I'll take off from where Ambassador Kamal Zadbil spoke.
17:21I am enthused, like everyone else, very happy.
17:25Taken three months, but at least this happened.
17:27But I am a realist.
17:29And I do want to tell you all, our viewers, 2008, or maybe around that time, Hafiz Saeed was also designated an international terrorist.
17:40$10 million was put on his head.
17:422014, the Jamaat-u-Tawa, which was a morphed element of the Rashkar-e-Taubah, was also banned.
17:512019, finally, the TRF came up as a proxy entity of the Rashkar-e-Taubah.
17:59So it's got a long history behind it.
18:02And the US has been taking action from time to time.
18:05But all this at the strategic level, maybe helps in diplomacy.
18:11It helps in speaking about this at forums such as G20.
18:15It also helps a lot in the efforts in the FATF.
18:19But when it comes down to brass tacks on the ground, I have seen no difference.
18:24I have seen no difference on the ground.
18:26The TRF has been there throughout the earlier years, the Rashkar-e-Taubah, through the 90s,
18:33the Jaish-e-Mohammad through the early part of the millennium.
18:38These organizations have all been there.
18:41And they've all had their proxies.
18:42They've had their financial networks.
18:44No doubt they have been dented hugely.
18:47Their capability has been compromised to a great extent.
18:51But a major decision in the United States for it to travel down and have a sub-tactical effect in the Kashmir Valley may take a very, very long time.
19:02Because staying on the aspect of U.S. double standards, and I completely agree with you, General Hasnain, that on ground, terrorist organizations like Lashkar-e-Taubah, Jaish-e-Mohammad, Jamaat-e-Dawah, Fala Insaniyat Foundation, they may have either had a U.S. designation or a U.N. designation.
19:19Terror continued on ground and continued to bleed India and Indians.
19:23Ambassador Sybil, it's not just India and Indians.
19:26You remember Admiral Mike Mullen, Chairman U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff?
19:30Way back in 2011, he said he exposed Pakistan's duplicity.
19:35And he said it had put in jeopardy a U.S.-Pakistan partnership against terrorism.
19:40He also said Haqqani Network was a veritable arm of Pakistan's ISI.
19:45Donald Trump himself had criticized Pakistan in his first term.
19:49What's changed in his second term in your appreciation, sir?
19:55I don't think anything has changed.
19:57In fact, in some ways, it's become even more difficult for us.
20:00Because this whole business about mediation by United States on the issue of Jammu and Kashmir was buried.
20:08Nobody was talking about it.
20:10But Trump has raised this issue not once, but even earlier.
20:15Not this time, but even earlier when he met Imran Khan.
20:18He said he would love to mediate the Jammu and Kashmir issue.
20:24And the fact that he's been, as I mentioned earlier, praising the leadership of Pakistan
20:30and knowing fully well the background of...
20:33No, but why is he doing this in your opinion?
20:35Well, this is a very difficult question to answer for the simple reason that he is, in a sense, hitting at and alienating his allies too.
20:50Look at the manner in which he's targeted Japan.
20:53Although Japan is a lynchpin of any confrontation with China in the Western Pacific.
21:00Yes.
21:01It has military bases.
21:02It has military personnel, U.S. military personnel deployed.
21:06So, it's critical.
21:07But nevertheless, he has slapped Japan to the extent that Japan is now saying that they'll have to charter a more independent course in foreign policy, the manner in which he's alienated Europe.
21:18Yes.
21:19So, I think this is part of his personality.
21:21And we have to deal with it.
21:22Very erratic, very impulsive.
21:24And he substitutes tariffs for geopolitics.
21:27He's not thinking about policy.
21:29He's thinking about deals.
21:31And that's very short-sighted for a country, which is the most powerful in the world, and the leader of the most powerful country in the world.
21:38He has no vision except tariffs and trade deals.
21:41The world cannot be run on that basis.
21:44But a little bit on this business of designating, U.S. designating this.
21:49The point is now, if the UN were to go and designate the resistance front as an international terrorist organization under their charter, under the relevant committee, that would be a step forward.
22:03But then we will see if China blocks this, as they have been blocking the designation of the head of Masood Azhar for about eight, ten years.
22:18Of course, that would be a sort of a diplomatic victory if we were able to achieve that.
22:22And we will be able to then see if China, which is talking about reviving the RIC dialogue and all that, whether they are willing to actually go forward and send some positive diplomatic signals to India.
22:35But leave that aside.
22:37No, but that's a very interesting point you've raised.
22:40Let me just complete this.
22:41All that you mentioned about Mike Mullen and all that in 2011.
22:44After that, what has happened?
22:46Nothing has happened.
22:47Despite such overstatements being made by the military chief of the United States.
22:55What has happened?
22:56Nothing.
22:57They continue to support Pakistan.
22:59They continue to seek support for Pakistan against the Taliban.
23:02And knowing that Pakistan has stabbed them in the back and then handed over Afghanistan to Taliban itself.
23:08Yes.
23:09So, I think it's very difficult to actually understand what is driving American foreign policy.
23:20And I think what was said earlier by the gentleman, one of the panelists about United States trying to, you know, have its cake and eat it too.
23:29Having stronger relations with India but not abandoning Pakistan.
23:32This has been their policy right from the start and we have to cope with it as best we can.
23:36Okay.
23:37Professor Latham, because US lives have been lost.
23:40Not just in Afghanistan and I believe close to 3000 US lives were lost in Afghanistan.
23:45More than 20,000 injured.
23:46Many blamed on direct intelligence leaks by Pakistan to the Taliban and other organizations in Afghanistan.
23:53But also during 2611, for example, Pakistan has bled the United States on US soil and elsewhere.
24:01Daniel Pearl killed in Pakistan.
24:03That Pakistani Air Vice Marshal's son involved in terror attack in New York.
24:08And yet, instead of holding Pakistan's feet to fire, US was arming Pakistan, modernizing their F-16s.
24:17Recently, Pakistan's Air Force chief was in the United States seeking more modern aircraft, weapons systems and air defense systems.
24:26Why would US entertain Pakistan?
24:30Well, for reasons that I alluded to earlier, I think there's part of the blob, the deep state, the foreign policy establishment, whatever you want to call it, that believes it can seduce Pakistan back into the American fold.
24:45And it won't happen right away and they'll have a price to be paid having your cake and eating it too, as my colleague said.
24:52But in the medium to long run, the hope is that if relations continue to improve, that the violence perpetrated by Pakistan-backed terrorists will subside.
25:04And Pakistan will go out once again, not once again, but maybe for the first time, brought squarely onto Team USA.
25:12And think about that from an American perspective.
25:14If you can manage the India-Pakistan conflict, you can dial it down a little bit.
25:18You can dial down the India-US, Pakistan-US tensions.
25:23You've got a pretty formidable pole in a, so far a cold war, as it were, with China in the Indo-Pacific.
25:32And I think that Trump has bought into that.
25:36I don't think he's smart enough to have that idea himself.
25:38His idea is, let's sit down at the table with everybody, wine and dine everybody, and let's do a deal.
25:43And the tariffs, by the way, I have to disagree with one of my colleagues here, are not a replacement for geopolitics or grand strategy.
25:52They're a key element of it.
25:53Trump thinks he can use tariffs to beat other countries into some kind of submission, both over trade policy, but also over broader geopolitical postures.
26:03He may be wrong, but I firmly believe that's part of his motivation.
26:07He really thinks that tariffs are, what did he call them? A beautiful word.
26:12But that's a symbolic way of saying that he thinks they're an effective tool on the global geopolitical stage.
26:18Okay, remains to be seen what kind of a pushback is there from different parts of the world, still early days.
26:25But General Hasnain, when you look at China, you look at Pakistan, you look at the situation here in India, you know, Ambassador Sybil spoke of China wanting to move forward on Russia's idea of reviving Russia, India, China trilateral.
26:41We had a statement from the Chinese foreign office saying they're willing to move forward on it.
26:46You think America will succeed in weaning away Pakistan from the dragon's stranglehold?
26:53Will the dragon be okay with it?
26:56Pakistan trying to, you know, to sail in two boats.
27:00Can it actually succeed in doing that?
27:02So far, it has to an extent.
27:04Gaurav, this is a very interesting question and this is a debate which has always gone on.
27:10But may I offer a slightly different point of view?
27:13I think the US strategic community always has been obsessed with Pakistan.
27:20Should we give any credit to Pakistan for it?
27:23Perhaps the outreach of Pakistan and its cultivation of US foreign policy itself has been perhaps of a very high order.
27:30And you have found breaks which have happened. Of course, they were part of CETO, CENTO and all that.
27:36After the Cold War, there was a short break and thereafter, there were, of course, the frontline state in Afghanistan fighting the Russians.
27:45Thereafter came a break and 9-11 came and thereafter, once again, they became the frontline state.
27:50Somehow their geostrategic location, I'm sure my colleagues would agree on that.
27:55Ambassador Cohen-Simple may probably want to comment on that.
27:58The geostrategic location of Pakistan is perhaps one of those real estates in the world which any nation would want to have under its control and its influence.
28:07You know, the kind of civilizations around it that who border it.
28:12So everything goes for anyone who has Pakistan on his side and that's the perception which is prevailing in the US strategic community.
28:21Unfortunately, we have not been able to raise this issue and to reach out to the strategic community in the United States.
28:28We need to do perhaps much more.
28:30But at the moment, this particular achievement is a very fine achievement, I would say.
28:36Okay, okay. Ambassador Sribal, the last 30 seconds I have on this part of the show, would you want to weigh in?
28:43Has Pakistan been able to exploit its geostrategic location better?
28:47Or is it a gun for hire, can be used and thrown?
28:51Consequences for Pakistan have been bad, but the army doesn't care for their people as long as the army continues to enrich itself.
28:58See, a couple of things. When India and United States had very, very difficult ties, then Pakistan was a very useful tool, again, to maintain pressure on India.
29:10Now that situation is no longer, that situation no longer exists. We have actually far better relations with the United States than Pakistan has.
29:19Number two, the Afghanistan issue is out. And therefore, while the United States still says it is worried about the activities of the ISI Khurasan or whatever have you,
29:30but it's not the same thing as before, where actually they had so many troops for so many years on the ground and they were suffering casualties and fighting the Taliban.
29:38So that angle is out. So far as Iran is concerned, Pakistan and Iran are neighbors. In fact, United States cannot exploit Pakistan against Iran.
29:50Now, when it comes to China, 80% of Pakistan's military equipment comes from China and they're going to get more.
29:56They're getting submarines and now they would have discovered the gaps in their defensive, in their defenses after Operation Sindhu and they're going to fill that up.
30:04And United States has actually let this happen. They have let the CPEC develop. They have let Gwada develop.
30:11They have not taken any strong action to prevent the possibility of a naval base in Pakistan for the Chinese military, Navy.
30:19Therefore, I don't think that this vision or this hope that some people in the United States have that they can wean away Pakistan from China is not true at all.
30:31They will not be able to do so. And China is not going to give up so easily the kind of position that they have now obtained in Pakistan.
30:42And it's a very vital, vital element in their overall strategy, not only in South Asia, so-called, but also towards the Gulf.
30:53I will let that be the last word on this part of the show. General Hasnain, Ambassador Sybil and Professor Latham for joining me here on this India First special broadcast. Many thanks.
31:04Many thanks.
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