- 1 year ago
In this edition of Democratic Newsroom, the focus is on the debate over NCERT's portrayal of Mughal rulers such as Akbar, Babur, and Aurangzeb.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Good evening, hello and welcome to yet another edition of the Democratic Newsroom.
00:23Well, things got a tad bit hot and unruly the last time around, so I've got myself
00:28a bit of a proper gavel, and I am not afraid to use it if things go out of order.
00:35Not on us, I hope.
00:36Huh?
00:37Not on us, I hope.
00:38You never know.
00:39So, just be scared.
00:41Alright, so let me quickly introduce our band of editors that we have with us here.
00:46We have Rajdeep Sardisai, Milan, who follows the education beat, and in just about a minute
00:51I'm going to tell you what we'll be debating this evening, Akshita and Gaurav Sawal.
00:55So, the big contentious debate on the Democratic Newsroom this evening is the revision of NCRT
01:02textbooks.
01:03For the seventh standard, three textbooks have been rolled out and a massive controversy,
01:10contention, division in terms of how these textbooks have been perceived.
01:15Has history been omitted purposely?
01:18All of that coming up over the course of the next 45 minutes.
01:22First up, Milan, will you take us through the entire controversy?
01:25Yes.
01:26Of course, as you know, there have been many deletions, many omissions in the NCRT textbook.
01:32So, not just class 7th, but class 8th, class 6th onwards, they have been releasing new books.
01:41And the major contention happens to be the revision and rewriting of the Mughal history
01:47in all these books.
01:49The way that we used to read the NCRT used to be full of Mughal history, right from, you
01:56know, the Dilli Sultanate onwards, the entire Mughal empire used to be what we studied in
02:01history textbooks.
02:02And now what has happened is the social science, at least in initial classes, let's say 6th, 7th,
02:08and 8th, have been clubbed into one book and everything has been made like a glossary,
02:14so you can gloss over it.
02:16A lot of the Mughal history was taught to us in a very rosy, happy way.
02:23That has changed a lot with the NCRT putting forward some really aggressive ways of the Mughals
02:30and the way they ruled the country, especially when…
02:33Highlighting the brutality of the Mughals.
02:35Yes, highlighting brutality, highlighting the cruelness of their, you know, reign in India.
02:42And certainly, historians and educationists have had a problem with that.
02:46And some also support the fact that today's children must know why there is so much hatred meted out towards…
02:55And strangely, all of this comes with a caveat.
02:57Of course, it comes with a caveat. They say it's the darkest period in our history.
03:02And that caveat is we don't take responsibility for what the Mughals did maybe hundreds and hundreds of years ago.
03:09But we do want to show what they have done, which is killing of people, massacring women, massacring children.
03:15And it should not impact the current way of how people view…
03:18Of course, of course. History should be read as history.
03:21And it should not impact…
03:22That's the caveat.
03:23Yes, of course. That's the caveat.
03:24The thing is that this thing comes in the class 8.
03:28It's an initial stage for a child to be reading all this.
03:31And should that be part of a class 8 textbook is another question.
03:36Maybe they could have added this in the higher classes.
03:38Right. So, objective or subjective, you know, can you omit history by omitting textbooks or chapters from textbooks?
03:46That's the big question. That's what we are debating.
03:49I want to quickly open up the floor on the Democratic newsroom.
03:52And it's very, very quiet.
03:54But it's going to get…
03:56Coit rackious very soon, I promise.
03:58But Rajdeep, would you want to go first and then Gaurav Savant?
04:01No, I don't think it's going…
04:02A, I don't think it's going to get raucous.
04:04Let me say this, that this book…
04:06Let me put first a caveat.
04:09Most governments, right or left…
04:11Right.
04:12…tend to see history through a political lens.
04:15That's been, you know, it's been the case for decades.
04:18So, this is not unusual.
04:20Every NCRT revision leads to some kind of political controversy.
04:24The problem I have, Preeti, with this particular NCRT book is the oversimplification.
04:30Which to my mind is extremely dangerous.
04:32And I'll tell you why.
04:33Because it reduces complex historical figures, many of whom ruled for 40, 50 years,
04:38to cut and paste cardboard cutout figures.
04:41Heroes and villains.
04:43Reduces centuries of rule between the dark ages and the golden age.
04:49If you are a Muslim Mughal ruler for over 500 years, you know…
04:53And they ruled between the Sultans and the Mughals for 500-600 years.
04:57You must be brutal and oppressive.
04:59And these are the dark ages.
05:00If you are Hindu rulers, that's noble and enlightened.
05:04That to my mind, worryingly, is a falsification of history.
05:07Right.
05:08Because students won't be told in this book.
05:10You must listen now.
05:11I'm listening.
05:12Akbar fought Rana Pratap in Haldi Gati famously.
05:15Yeah.
05:16His general was Man Singh.
05:18Aurangzeb's general, who forces Chhattrapadi Shivaji Maharaj into the treaty of Purandar
05:24by which Shivaji has to give up some of his forts, was Jai Singh, a Rajput.
05:28Many of the Mughal rulers worked alliances with the Rajput.
05:31That's the nature.
05:32They were building empires.
05:34They were rulers.
05:35The fact is also, this book won't tell you that temples were raised not just by Mughals
05:42and by Aurangzeb, but also by Hindu rulers.
05:45That Rajendra Chola goes, destroys the Chalukyan empire and also destroys Jain temples along with
05:50it.
05:51Buddhist stupa shrines were destroyed well before the Sultans enter the picture in this country.
05:56If the aim was, as the book claims, to give students an objective view of history, I'm
06:02sorry on that very basic premise, it fails.
06:05This is a terribly written book.
06:07That is my biggest problem.
06:09You write history, please write it well so that people are encouraged to read much more
06:14about history.
06:15You reduce history and historical figures, 45 years of Akbar's rule to one incident that
06:20happened in Chittorgarh and destroy and call him brutal and oppressive.
06:23There are many other rulers also who will be called brutal and oppressive.
06:26Alright, let me go.
06:27That's my problem with it.
06:28Otherwise, you know, every government wants to see history to a political lens.
06:33Alright.
06:34You know, because we always have all sides of the narrative or the subject.
06:39Gaurav, would you want to weigh in?
06:41I love how well-regulated this debate is turning out to be.
06:44I'm scared.
06:45Everyone's allowed.
06:46This has worked.
06:48We don't want another walkout.
06:49Come on, Gaurav.
06:50We'd rather have Rajdeep stay and listen to every point of view.
06:54And he must, and so must everybody else.
06:57You see, there's an old African proverb that says, until the lion learns how to write,
07:03every story will glorify the hunter.
07:05Now the lions are writing.
07:07The sons of the soil are writing.
07:09So, yes, there will be no glorification of invaders and their descendants.
07:13The truth about invaders and their descendants will come out.
07:17Yes, Hindu kingdoms and kings also attacked each other.
07:21But did they call themselves Ghazis?
07:23Did they call the others Kafirs?
07:26Did they seek to convert and plunder and enslave?
07:29The way Islamic State does today is how the Mughals did then.
07:34And I'm sorry.
07:35So, maybe 100 years later, when you have a very pro-Islamic State regime,
07:40when they write the history of what happened to the Yazidis,
07:43they'll say, so what?
07:44It was done by Adolf Hitler.
07:46So, it was done by Islamic State.
07:48So, it was done by Aurangzeb.
07:50Aurangzeb.
07:51I mean, just look at what the Mughal emperors did.
07:53So, you know, the way they say, so many years of Akbar and reduced only to one massacre of Chittor.
07:59At least, fortunately now, people are talking about the massacre of Chittor.
08:03They weren't even talking about the massacre.
08:05It was written by Marxist historians.
08:06Marxist historians wrote about the siege of Chittorgarh.
08:09That is the reality of India, which you don't recognize.
08:12Unfortunately for Rajdeep, he's only…
08:13You may not have read it.
08:14You may not have read about the siege of Chittorgarh.
08:16Again, I did not interrupt him, but he cannot let anybody else speak because his arguments are so weak.
08:21These arguments are weak.
08:22Okay, one second.
08:24Rajdeep, allow him.
08:26Rajdeep, allow him.
08:27He's making personal remarks.
08:28Let's not get into personal remarks.
08:30How can you say arguments?
08:31Don't…
08:32Don't…
08:33Don't get into personal remarks.
08:34Okay.
08:35I am like he said.
08:36One second.
08:37Okay, one second.
08:39No, no, this is also not…
08:40Okay, one second.
08:41Can we get one second?
08:43Okay, I'm the moderator.
08:44No personal remarks.
08:45I am the moderator.
08:46Rajdeep, Rajdeep, allow one second.
08:48Did I even mention my name?
08:49Rajdeep, don't…
08:50Did I even mention my name?
08:51Rajdeep, allow the same…
08:53Yes, one second.
08:54Extend the same courtesy that you were extended.
08:57Allow him to speak.
08:58Allow him to speak.
08:59Gaurav, refrain from personal remarks.
09:01I will just…
09:02The both of you.
09:03Refrain from personal remarks.
09:04Extend the same courtesy that you are extended.
09:06Make your point.
09:07I will just give the simple aspect and I'll come to Akbar and Aurangzeb and their brutality
09:11in just a moment.
09:12In fact, the entire Mughal and pre-Mughal, the slave dynasty for example, in just a moment.
09:16But this is the first time perhaps you're reading about sons and daughters of the soil
09:21who resisted foreign invaders throughout.
09:23How many of you can name me five sons and daughters of the soil that you may have read in history?
09:27Can you tell me what was Keturki Rani Chinnamma doing?
09:30Can you tell me what Rani Durgaavati was doing?
09:32But let me read out in sequence, right?
09:34Prithvirat Chauhan, Hathi Hamir Singh of Mewad, Rani Durgaavati, Maharana Pratha, Chhatravati
09:40Shivaji, Chhatrapati Sambhaji, Banda Singh Bahadur, Peshwa Bajirao, Rani Chinnamma.
09:45I want to come to the battle of Sarai Ghat and Lachit Burfukan.
09:49How many of you read about Lachit Burfukan in your history textbooks?
09:52That's been introduced now.
09:54You know why?
09:55Because sons and daughters of this soil constantly fought foreign invaders and that's coming out for the first time now.
10:00Can I now move towards Akshita?
10:02Akshita, would you want to give your two cents into this fast, very quickly, a debate that is getting rather heated?
10:08We were expecting a calm one this week, but it's already gotten heated.
10:11Look, I will only say this, which is that when I studied, I remember so much learning about Mughals, like it was the greatest empire in this country.
10:19Today, when I look back, I don't think so, because I've learned so much more.
10:22I've had exposure.
10:23As a student, you don't, which is why I see why this debate is very needed about, you know, what chapters are there, what inclusions are there.
10:30But I feel that the obsession over Mughals needs to end.
10:35And the glorification of Mughals needs to end.
10:38Even the incidents that Rajdeep is referring to did happen.
10:41Are we going to claim that it's fiction that's been put in the textbook?
10:44It's not.
10:45It's facts.
10:46It's what happened.
10:47Akbar has been referred to as the Great.
10:48Akbar the Great is what we've always known him as.
10:50There is a change now where you're also hearing about other incidents.
10:53I'd much rather have ten chapters on the Cholas.
10:56Ten chapters on Raja Raja Chola.
10:58Instead, what did I hear about Akbar the Great?
11:00And I feel that narrative needs to change.
11:03What Akshita is actually speaking about is more regional representation that has come forward with these NCRs.
11:09I grew up in Chennai.
11:10I studied in Chennai.
11:11This is the point.
11:12I didn't know about the Cholas as Mughals.
11:13Before I go to Rajdeep, if I'm allowed to just give in my two cents.
11:16I think there is so much obsession with how much of the Mughals is included, how much of it has been deleted, that we are missing the woods for the trees.
11:24And why I say that is, and I'll go back.
11:26I'm an army kid.
11:27Right?
11:28I studied in the army public school.
11:29And when I was in my sixth standard, we used to have a teacher.
11:31And most all teachers were in the current connotation or definition of it, nationalist in nature.
11:38And I remember one of them, our history teacher, telling us that isn't she glad that we are not learning history the way Pakistan is being taught history, which is through a very clear lens of omitting most of their history and glorifying what they want to glorify.
11:54So, which is a convoluted way of learning history, number one.
11:56Number two, I'll tell you what my issues with this textbook are.
11:59You've gone through it, Milan.
12:00Yeah.
12:01I, you know, okay, you want to bring in more of the Mughals, less of the Mughals?
12:05Great.
12:06You want to talk about your own dynasties?
12:07Great.
12:08Talk about it.
12:09I have issues with omissions, number one, of all social movements in this country.
12:12Why shouldn't a seventh and a sixth standard or an eighth standard child learn about the Chipko movement, Narmada, Bachao movement, all of that?
12:20In medieval Indian history?
12:21All, it's been omitted.
12:23It's been removed.
12:24It's been removed.
12:25Allow me.
12:26Allow me, Gaurav.
12:27I allowed you.
12:28Allow me.
12:29So, all social movements have been removed.
12:31So, all form of protests in this country, which this country stands on, have been removed.
12:37All of that.
12:38All mentions of that.
12:39All mentions of riots, Milan, have been removed, including 2002 Gujarat, including most riots that have taken place in, I would reckon, in the last 30 years.
12:49All mentions of riots have been completely removed from these textbooks.
12:54I have issues with that.
12:55I think kids nowadays, where you're a sixth, seventh standard, you need to understand what your country went through.
13:01So, Preeti, you're talking about modern history.
13:04Yes.
13:05We have yet to see many more changes in that.
13:07But yes, in the last subsequently released NCRT books for class 11th and 12th, yes, these Chipko movements, the Narmada Bachao movement was removed.
13:17The reference to Godra riots has been removed.
13:19The reference to many riots has been removed.
13:20The reference to many riots has been removed.
13:21Yes.
13:22Particularly, the assassination of Gandhi has also been removed.
13:24How politics has been curtailed.
13:25I know that.
13:26Curtailed.
13:27Curtailed.
13:28And Nathuram Godse.
13:29Yes.
13:30Yes.
13:31Tell me, Gaurav, wouldn't you demonize Nathuram Godse?
13:35Is this book about modern Indian history?
13:38All of that has been removed.
13:40I'm asking you a question.
13:42What is this book?
13:43I'm talking about the larger cuts that have been made again.
13:46Let me flip this around.
13:47One second.
13:48Why didn't we raise these questions about whether there were chapters on the emergency?
13:51No, no.
13:52I have a question.
13:53There is a chapter on the emergency.
13:54There was.
13:55I have a question.
13:56Should Nathuram Godse be glorified for our children?
13:59Yes or no?
14:00Nobody in his right mind would ever glorify an assassin.
14:03But the entire chapter criticizing Nathuram Godse has been removed.
14:07Here we have people who glorified Aurangzeb the way the Mughals and you know this thing
14:12about oh Mughals were ruling India.
14:14Mughals brought culture to India.
14:16Can I just come to one point?
14:18Since I'm making a point.
14:19You shouldn't glorify Aurangzeb.
14:21You shouldn't glorify Nathuram Godse.
14:22No.
14:23Hold on.
14:24You know what the Mughals did?
14:25There was a brave Sikh general called Banda Singh Bahadur.
14:29His four year old son was beheaded.
14:32That son's heart was put in his father's mouth.
14:35You know why?
14:36Because he refused to accept Islam.
14:38Was he the only one?
14:39Guru Teg Bahadur.
14:40The ninth Sikh Guru.
14:41Beheaded.
14:42Why?
14:43He refused to accept Islam.
14:44The fifth Sikh Guru.
14:45Guru Arjan Dev.
14:46This was Jahangir.
14:47Way before Aurangzeb.
14:48Jahangir had him tortured and killed.
14:51There is a pattern that you just choose to gloss over.
14:54Rajdeep wants to come in.
14:55Rajdeep come in.
14:56Look.
14:57Nobody.
14:58Nobody in history books that I read certainly glorified Aurangzeb.
15:02Let me be very clear about this.
15:04You know this is a falsification of history.
15:07Maybe it was read differently in schools and colleges that I went to.
15:13Certainly in the school and college that I went to, my history books certainly did not glorify Aurangzeb.
15:18A.
15:19B.
15:20In, frankly in my final exams, the Cholas were an important chapter and a question in my book.
15:26They also have a major role to play.
15:28As do the Mughals.
15:29The fact is, these are all dynasties that emerged over the years.
15:33The Chalukyas, Rashtrakutas.
15:34You can well argue that enough prominence was not given to certain regional kingdoms.
15:39Over emphasis was given to the Mughals.
15:41I am willing to accept that argument.
15:42But if 50 years or 45 years that Akbar ruled, is reduced in the book to the massacre that he ordered at the age of 25 or some 30,000 civilians.
15:54Forgetting that this was the same Akbar who then removed Jizia tax and moves towards building a truly pluralistic society of a kind that I think was a big challenge at the time.
16:05We are talking of in India 500 years ago.
16:06But you didn't learn about it.
16:07Of course I learned about it.
16:08You see, you didn't learn about it, doesn't it?
16:09I didn't.
16:10That's what I'm saying.
16:11That's my problem.
16:12Sir, I said exactly that, that Akbar the Great is all that we were taught about.
16:21No, sir, he was a great ruler.
16:22I'm saying that's the only thing.
16:24No, no, one minute.
16:25I am a great admirer of the great Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.
16:28Right?
16:29I think he was one of the most valorous rulers this country has had.
16:32Am I also, if I were by the same logic, to look at the raids that were carried out in Bengal by Shivaji's army, am I to look at what happened in Surat?
16:40Did Shivaji convert any?
16:41No, no, one minute.
16:42Did Shivaji convert anyone?
16:43Did Shivaji have any woman raped or enslaved?
16:47Gaurav, I have no problem with you putting all those facts in the public domain.
16:52But it is so horrifying that we speak of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj in the same voice as the Bughal Auram said.
16:58I am saying whoever, whether it is a Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj who was defending his kingdom against invasions that were taken against the Mughals who were trying to spread into the Barakhal kingdom.
17:11Or whether he had alliances at times with the Sultans if necessary to take on the Mughals.
17:16These were all rulers, emperors who were defending their kingdom above all else.
17:21I am not equating them.
17:23All I am saying, an objective reading of history would ensure that every leader's strengths and their weaknesses would be put out.
17:31Please do that.
17:32That's all I am asking.
17:33Let children not reduce history.
17:35This is the hero and this is the villain.
17:37There are rulers today who destroyed temples in Kashmir. Hindu rulers.
17:42Who destroyed temples in Kashmir.
17:43Now how am I going to look at that ruler?
17:45Because that part you don't want to show.
17:47Okay.
17:48You want to say only Muslim Mughals.
17:50Allow Akshuta, I come to Milan and thenakam.
17:51Allow Akshuta, I come to Milan and thenakam.
17:52Are you also being selective in how you are viewing the Mughals?
17:54I am not being, I agree with you.
17:55Allow.
17:56But we are saying that the Mughals did this and this and this, but they also did this and this.
17:59Allow.
18:00That means you are trying to say that, you know, there is not a holistic view.
18:02I am not an objective reading.
18:03There is a, no but that's not what you are talking about.
18:05I am saying, show that darker side.
18:06I am saying, show that darker side and their brighter side.
18:11To say that this entire period was a dark age for India for 400-500 years is I think a
18:17misreading of history.
18:18There were strengths, there were weaknesses.
18:19Was there not brutalities?
18:20There were.
18:21And you know when you talk of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.
18:23No.
18:24No.
18:25No.
18:26Show me, show me Chhatrapati Shivaji's so called brutality that you mentioned.
18:31Show it to me.
18:32Show me one instance of Chhatrapati Shivaji.
18:34You know the way the Mughal brutality.
18:36Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj, let us say, is a leader, is a ruler of the highest order.
18:41I accept you.
18:42I am not denying that.
18:43But, but.
18:44Show me brutality of Maharana Pratap for example.
18:47Chhatrapati Shivaji when he raided Bengal, when his forces raided Bengal, they did not make
18:51a differentiation there between Hindus and Muslims.
18:54They did not.
18:55They went and raided people.
18:56There was no rape.
18:57There was no conversion.
18:58So what are we trying to say?
18:59You are trying to say that the Mughal Muslims were intolerant, oppressive rulers.
19:11That's what you are trying to say.
19:12Were intolerant, oppressive rulers.
19:14Hindu rulers were noble and enlightened.
19:17When a Rajendra Chhatra goes and destroys the entire Chhatrian Empire, including Jain temples,
19:21what will you call it?
19:22Why are we making this a Hindu-Muslim issue?
19:24Because that's how the book is written.
19:25That's my problem.
19:26No, it is not.
19:27The book is written as heroes and villains.
19:28No, one second.
19:29No, one second.
19:30So why does it talk about Hindus and Muslims?
19:31Alright, one second.
19:32We've got to get some order.
19:34I want to use my problem.
19:35One second.
19:36I sincerely want to say, this is,
19:38I'm sorry, we have to call the spirit of speech.
19:39Can I, no, hear me out.
19:40Hear me out.
19:41One at a time, guys.
19:42One at a time, one at a time.
19:43Okay, so hear me out.
19:44In 1528, Babar in Malwa Chanderi battle killed all male members, enslaved all their women.
19:57He made a mountain of the skulls of the pagans.
20:01Show me one Hindu ruler who made a mountain of skulls of fellow Hindus.
20:06Look at the destruction that the great Ashokha carried out at Kaningat.
20:10He called himself Gazi.
20:17Okay, pillar of head.
20:19Babar Nama reports it.
20:21Battle of Chittorghar we've spoken of.
20:22Yeah, one second.
20:23Show me one Hindu ruler who had a muguay, beheading.
20:25Okay, I'm running out of time.
20:26Allow me to get akshita.
20:27Akshita, make your time.
20:29Please, there is no equivalence.
20:31False equivalence.
20:32One second.
20:33There is a marked difference between battles and brutalities that were targeting and clearly against certain groups, certain sects and trying to ensure that you, you know, wipe out people. Big difference, first.
20:44Secondly, I think it's very worrying if we make our history Hindu-Muslim and we try to categorize.
20:48It's been made there. No, it is not.
20:49How? The caveat.
20:49Because that's what I said.
20:50Read the caveat.
20:51Read the caveat in this book.
20:52This book should have said that Haldi Ghati, the general, was Raja Man Singh.
20:56That Aurangzeb's prime generals were the likes of Jaising.
21:00When you use the word cruel, when you use the word cruel, isn't Aurangzeb cruel?
21:06Of course he is.
21:07That's all.
21:07But you kept Babar Jahanir.
21:10Is Babar cruel or not cruel?
21:12Is Jahanir cruel or not cruel?
21:14Please understand that this is just a 7th and 8th class textbook.
21:22What Rajdeep sirs mentioned, what Gaurav's mentioned will be added subsequently in other books.
21:28But I will agree to Akshita's point.
21:31There needs to be, sir, greater representation.
21:35I have never seen Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj being discussed in an NCRT book.
21:40I had a full book on him.
21:41I grew up in Mumbai.
21:43Maybe I grew up in Mumbai.
21:44I also grew up in Mumbai.
21:45I had a full book on Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.
21:47Did you read about Gachit Borfukar?
21:49That's what I'm saying, sir, that Maharashtra, yes, Maharashtra Parakin, sir, Maharashtra textbooks had Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.
21:58I also grew up in Bombay, just like you grew up in Bombay.
22:01But NCRT is a national curriculum.
22:03The national curriculum, sir, never had Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.
22:07I've never had Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.
22:09No, it had Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.
22:10I mean, good, good.
22:10I mean, Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj was on a C.
22:13One second.
22:14I was just a part of the question, sir.
22:16I know, sir, I know, I know, I know, sir, but not on it.
22:18I know about it.
22:19No, no, one second.
22:20Lachit Borfukar has been added here.
22:21Lachit Borfukar has been added for the first time.
22:24As someone from Assam, you would never have heard anything about Lachit Borfukar.
22:27Okay, I'm taking final comments.
22:28We are giving all of our panelists just about a minute each.
22:32To conclude, Gaurav, let's begin with you.
22:33You have a minute.
22:34Sons and daughters of the soil who constantly resisted foreign invaders and their descendants
22:40and fought against the atrocities.
22:42Their representation is being added.
22:44We need a lot more of the resistance that was constantly there.
22:48And the fact, you know, when they say Mughal nae 800 saal raj kiya ya 600 saal raj kiya,
22:53the Marathas defeated the Mughals.
22:55Mahatji Sindhya, Mahatji Sindhya, Shah Alam 2 was his puppet in Delhi.
22:59The Sikhs came and ruled Delhi.
23:01All of that.
23:02I know this because I've done a master's degree in history.
23:04One minute.
23:05This needs to be taught.
23:06I feel that for the longest time we've glorified Mughals.
23:09If you add one paragraph talking about something that they've done,
23:13I don't think, you know, it's a big crime because you've glorified them for so long.
23:16Secondly, Hindu-Muslim, I feel we shouldn't make our history about Hindu versus Muslim.
23:20You know, one is to one, two is to one, any of that.
23:23And to add caveats to every single chapter on Mughal saying,
23:25but Hindus also did this, makes it rather ugly.
23:27No, but the caveat is in the book, where they say that whatever is written in the book should not...
23:30If you make it Hindu versus Muslim.
23:31It is a caveat.
23:32What is the caveat in the end?
23:33The caveat says that...
23:34The caveat is in this book.
23:36No, my...
23:36You're saying it shouldn't be Hindu-Muslim.
23:39You're saying it shouldn't be Hindu-Muslim.
23:40It shouldn't be Hindu versus Muslim.
23:41Here's the caveat in the book.
23:42They've not explicitly said Hindu-Muslim, but they have said that these rulers did what they did hundreds of years ago.
23:49And hence, we should not blame anyone today for it.
23:52So, you're already inculcated in the book.
23:54It's being implicitly mentioned.
23:55It's insinuated.
23:56It's insinuated.
23:57Are you saying then that it's because they're Muslim?
23:59No.
23:59It's insinuated.
24:00It's insinuated.
24:01Why would you say it?
24:02It's because of their religion.
24:03Why would you say it otherwise?
24:04One second.
24:05Rajdeep, one minute, please conclude.
24:07You're saying it in the book.
24:09Rajdeep, one minute.
24:10Now, all I'm going to say is that I have, I believe that history cannot be reduced.
24:16A complex and nuanced history, even if it is for class 7 and 8, needs to be read in a manner that encourages students to see varying interpretations of history that are objective to the extreme, to the extent that is possible in a school textbook.
24:31Therefore, the worst thing you can do in history is, as I said at the very outset, reduce rulers to cardboard-sized figures.
24:39So-and-so is brutal and oppressive.
24:41So-and-so is noble and enlightened.
24:42Please tell me much more about them.
24:45Their strengths, their weaknesses, the various alliances that were forged.
24:49Because the moment you start talking about alliance building, for example, between the Mughals and Rajputs, then your history becomes a little bit more complex.
24:55You don't want that history to be made complex and therefore it results at times to falsification.
25:01We've seen it in political science textbooks, for example, the way the Babri Masjid has been looked at, the way 2002 is looked at, the way emergency is looked at, and different governments have done it.
25:09I am saying, please give the students something where they can enrich themselves with history without reducing it to Mughals and Muslims, brutal and oppressive.
25:20Hindu leaders.
25:21Okay.
25:22I want to, binaries, don't tie them into binaries.
25:24Please give, don't add these binaries.
25:27Give a young person a nuanced point.
25:30And I agree with Gaurav, please, please push, please push, please push these regional histories.
25:36Tell me about the Ahoms, tell me about the Cholas, tell me more if you want about the Chalukyas, about the Rashtrakutas, about various dynasties.
25:43No problem with that.
25:44That I have no problem with.
25:45But whichever, Rani, Jinnah, Mahu, speak about, we will, let them make it.
25:50I am so glad.
25:51But be willing, but be willing to, let's quote quickly also, keep in mind, the fact is, the fact that I still don't have my temple.
25:59I don't have the time.
26:00One second.
26:01Why was the Mathura temple targeted?
26:03Why was, you know, the temple Kashi Vishnu targeted?
26:06I want to bring in Milan for one final 20 seconds.
26:10And Milan, the fact is, this is just the beginning.
26:12Because there are massive cuts that have been made in textbooks right from the 6th standard going all the way to the 12th standard.
26:18And many of the issues, highly contentious, where modern history is concerned, where political science is concerned, where even social science is concerned.
26:25There are cuts being made in Delhi University syllabus for the MA political science.
26:30So, this is nothing.
26:31But what I just want to say in my short comment is, if you want to show that Babar was cruel, Akbar was cruel, Aurangzeb was cruel.
26:39Please also show each and every side, every problem that we have faced, everything that has happened in the Godra riots, everything that happened in emergency, who killed Gandhi, everything should be shown.
26:53Or else, we'll need to just keep selecting things.
26:55And I need to end immediately right now.
26:57Or else, you're a Pakistan, where kids in Pakistan have grown up believing they won 65 and 71, which they didn't.
27:04But we're going to leave it at that, objective, subjective, how do you view these cuts?
27:07We've given our views, and rather loudly so.
27:10We're going to end it there.
27:10Thank you for joining us.
27:11Thank you for joining us.