00:00So here's the thing, AI has actually been around for quite some time, since the 1960s in fact,
00:06but I've noticed how much more prominent it's become, especially with programs like ChatGBT.
00:11All that requires is a simple prompt to generate answers to your burning questions,
00:16and it can even generate images. Some people argue that the widespread and somewhat
00:22normalized use of AI in today's world could disrupt creative industries, while others
00:28feel that AI is just a tool that helps bring their vision to life. I mean, recently, social media was
00:36filled with AI-generated images of people imagining themselves as Studio Ghibli characters, even though
00:43the co-founder of the studio had previously expressed that he felt like the use of AI was an insult to
00:49life itself. I'm a voice artist. But the thing is, right now, there are AI tools that only require
00:58seven seconds of my voice in order to replicate my voice for whatever people want me to say.
01:07That's pretty scary. And it's something that a lot of artists and creatives are worried about.
01:14So of course, I wanted to delve deeper into this topic, and I came across an art therapist
01:18who made use of generative AI while working with dementia patients. I'd love to find out a lot more
01:24about his work. So let's go have a chat with him.
01:32Hi, Tzu Jin.
01:33Hi, everyone.
01:34Thanks for taking the time to speak with us today.
01:36Okay, let's get started.
01:37Okay, okay. Sounds good.
01:39So there was this very fascinating project you worked on with dementia patients. Could you tell us about that?
01:45There was a conversation around arts in health, how the arts can kind of benefit health outcomes.
01:52One of the key things is really to keep the patients engaged, so that then their mood improves,
01:58well-being outcomes also improve. When we're in school, we're always graded for art. So I actually
02:03get a bit intimidated when people say, oh, you have to draw. So was that a bit like that for some of the
02:08patients? For the patients, I think a lot of times it's that, you know, so they have that fear of making
02:13art. In art therapy, a lot of times, the outcome isn't the most important. What's more important is
02:19like the therapeutic goals, you know, what we want to achieve for the patients. We want them to socialise,
02:24we want them to engage. In this case, you know, we said, you know, why not we use AI to help support
02:30them in their art making, so that it's less stressful for them to make art. With digital technology, it helps
02:37some of the patients who might otherwise, you know, find it very difficult to make art, partly because
02:42of maybe physical limitations. Asking them to hold the marker and exert pressure on paper can even be
02:49a struggle. A lot of times when I present to patients like that blank piece of paper, it's usually like
02:56maybe A4 size. You know, sometimes I might push for A3 size, but A3 size is very daunting. The flashbacks
03:01are like, oh, I don't know what to fill this space up with. So then I went smaller. So I went to like
03:07kind of this coaster size. Oh, wow. You know, I gave them prompts. So I think one of it was,
03:11what do you remember from your childhood that made you happy? It can be like a simple drawing,
03:16stick swigger, you know, I'm fine with it. Then we used that and we fed it into the AI. One of the
03:22patients talked about how he loved swimming. Oh, wow. And he would always jump into the river,
03:28right? The river. The river, my goodness. The river is kampong. I think he drew like coconut trees,
03:34you know, and then he drew like the water. And then I think a little figure of him jumping into
03:39the water. Yeah. So then we used that image to generate a few iterations of it. And then I offered
03:44them, okay, uncle, you know, like, so here are a few options, you know, what do you think best
03:49represents that memory of you? What was his response to that when you generated the images for him?
03:54I think it really helped them to connect back to that memory because a lot of them didn't have cameras
03:59back then, right? So they couldn't document all these memories. So we were actually using the AI to
04:04help them to relive some of these memories. And then a lot of times we also worked with patients'
04:08families. So then the families were very grateful to be able to talk about these stories with the
04:14patients. And I think we generally saw improvements in MOOC. That's incredible. This is a very positive use
04:21of generative AI. I want to hear your thoughts on some of the criticisms of generative AI with regards to
04:27its commercial use. What about in the cases where people feel that their art has been misused or
04:33taken from them? I tried to look through, you know, articles, you know, to kind of see like maybe which
04:40companies were doing it more ethically. I don't want to infringe on artists whose works have been
04:45misappropriated or like they haven't given approval for their artwork to be used. I don't know if you're
04:50familiar with like collage art making, but a lot of times in collage art making, we are also using like
04:55magazines or like found objects and then repurposing them. And this is of course other people's work,
05:01graphic designers, photographers. That's right, that's right. I will always kind of think of
05:06how I'm going to edit it a little bit more to enhance it, to give it my own personal take.
05:12It's very heartening to me that you're using AI in a way that's really changing people's lives for
05:17the better. Thank you. Okay, thanks Edward.
05:23So those were some really interesting perspectives from Xu Xin. Now we're going to go talk to Dr.
05:28Wolfgang from LaSalle College of the Arts for his thoughts on generative AI.
05:36Professor, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today.
05:39Thank you very much for coming, please. Thank you.
05:41The first thing I want to ask you as someone who has worked with art through your life,
05:48what has Gen AI done to art? It hasn't changed artistic practice,
05:55but it has changed the environment of artistic practice. They're still getting dirty, they're still
06:01getting sweaty, and they still have all of their anxieties on stage and all that.
06:07I'd like to sort of zoom in on one part of this. So any human being can, with the right prompts,
06:15within seconds, create an image. What do you think of this?
06:20The outcome of that is amazing. I believe I'm constantly surprised about that. I'm excited about
06:28that. To some degree I'm a bit devastated about that. But it is not the painting that comes out of the
06:38engagement with materiality, with the canvas and the colors and the whole environment of a studio.
06:44These systems don't have any embodiment. They don't feel. They don't have desires. They don't feel
06:50hunger. That's still a human domain. Of course we have the opportunity to don't use that, right?
06:57But if we don't do that, because the systems are coming anyway, there are two possibilities for us.
07:02Other people will shape it for us, or we shape it. I'm going for reshaping them. It is to a certain
07:09degree not entirely comparable, but related to a discussion that we had when photography came,
07:16right? Okay, that's the end of painting, or that is not art in the first place. So when film came and
07:23television came and that was the end of theater, it was the end of whatever. It was always the end of
07:28that. But we started to coexist, right? The paintings are still existing and photography is actually then
07:34challenged by digital systems, by Photoshop. I don't believe that it's the end of anything. I believe
07:40it will be one more form. And I'm not entirely sure whether art needs to be making your fingers dirty.
07:50It might still be art, right? So we should be very careful to exclude one of these kind of
07:55engagements with the technical systems and saying that it can't be art because it is based on
08:00whatever kind of technical process. There was recently, for two weeks, my social media was filled
08:09with people just wanting pictures of themselves looking like Hayao Miyazaki's characters. There was a
08:16lot of criticism of that. They felt that. Rightfully, yeah. Because he himself had very much been
08:23against digital replication. What's your take on this? It was in disrespect to Studio Ghibli and the
08:30founder of that and he made it very clear and rightfully made it clear there was a lot of
08:35discussions coming out of that. That was very helpful because all of a sudden we had a discourse about
08:40these kind of things. It is an embarrassment to human intelligence. I'm not entirely sure why everybody
08:48did it. We should not simply do that. I believe all the works that Studio Ghibli is doing now
08:57is valued much higher because we see the difference between the soulless Ghibliization and the very,
09:06very soulful animations that are coming out from Studio Ghibli. There is a difference and it is notable.
09:13Thank you. That's fascinating. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Really appreciate it.
09:17Thank you for coming and thank you for having me here in an interview. Thank you.
09:24Before we started this episode, I was quite negative about Gen.AI. But after speaking to
09:30Zizian and to Dr. Wolfgang, here's the thing. The tide is rising and we all have choices.
09:38And I think the critical thing here is that we make sure we use AI responsibly. And that's
09:47going to make the difference for everyone.
09:58things that we are seeing.
10:00And I want to see you here.
10:01Here we go.
10:02Here we go.
10:04Here we go.
10:06Let's see.
10:09Let's see.
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