00:00For more, we're joined now by Yossi Mecklenberg, Senior Consulting Fellow with the Middle East and North Africa Programme at Chatham House.
00:07Yossi, thanks so much for being with us on the programme this evening.
00:10Firstly, the Israeli Defence Minister has reportedly been outlining plans to pack hundreds of thousands of Palestinians
00:16into a closed zone along the border with Egypt.
00:22Outlining these details this week, how does Israel justify this kind of plan to set up what it's calling
00:28a so-called humanitarian city in what was once Rafa?
00:34Good evening. Thank you for having me.
00:37I think we almost got used, and we shouldn't, to this kind of euphemisms of humanitarian city
00:44when the entire Gaza enclave is tiny and is one of the most densely populated places on planet Earth,
00:56let alone if you push 600,000, some people, the entire population of more than 2 million in such a small area.
01:06We know that it's a humanitarian disaster. It's inhumane. It's not a humanitarian city.
01:12This is not the solution.
01:14Again, we're talking about other euphemisms of voluntary migration that we know it will be a forceful expulsion of Palestinians.
01:23It's probably not going to happen, but some of, you know, like the Defence Minister Israel Katz are playing to their base more than they're probably capable of doing that.
01:34They don't even try to justify anything anymore because there is no pressure from the international community to stop it,
01:41to allow humanity to an end, to bring the world to an end.
01:44We just saw the picture of this horrific attack on a hospital in which dozens of Palestinians are killed, completely innocent people,
01:53have nothing to do with Hamas, and this is 21 months of this war.
01:59So when this is allowed with complete impunity, if you ask me about justification,
02:06neither the Defence Minister nor other ministers are even bothered to actually give any justification anymore.
02:12And talk to us a little bit more about the specific legal and ethical concerns you have.
02:17As you say, no pressure really being applied on Israel not to go ahead with this plan.
02:24So more and more we hear even from Israeli soldiers, reservists,
02:29that they refuse to take certain operations because they think it's a violation of the laws of war,
02:40of international humanitarian law, in other words, that war crimes are committed.
02:47And for now, we've complete impunity.
02:50This is the way that, you know, we see this picture of pictures of 70% of Gaza is destroyed,
02:59of hospitals, schools, more than 57,000 people killed,
03:04many of them, again, not involved with Hamas, never been involved with Hamas.
03:11Many of them are children, non-combatants.
03:16And, you know, from international law, I'm sure there will be, after the war,
03:20more and more investigation of that, but it's enough to see the picture,
03:23hear what Israeli soldiers say, that, you know, war crimes are committed, probably on a daily basis.
03:30And, Yossi, what does this plan and the kind of rhetoric that's being used to describe it
03:35tell us about Israel's broader military goals here in Gaza?
03:40So if you go back to, you know, to the beginning of the war,
03:44you know, the massacre about Hamas was horrific.
03:48But Israel's response has been disproportionate.
03:52But the objective was, one, that it's impossible, as we see,
03:55to achieve the complete elimination of Hamas,
03:58because Hamas is not just a movement, it's an idea, it's an ideology,
04:02but also the return of the hostages.
04:05And there are still 50 hostages in the hands of Hamas.
04:09And the hostages haven't been a top priority for the Israeli prime minister.
04:15They are top priority for most Israelis, but not for this government,
04:20because Netanyahu is dependent on the most extreme right, weak,
04:24ultra-nationalist, messianic elements within his coalition.
04:29And they want to continue this war until they basically expel most of the Palestinians,
04:35occupy Gaza, and even build or rebuild the settlements there.
04:40And despite the optimism that's been expressed this week by both Netanyahu
04:45and also Donald Trump about the prospects of, you know, agreeing a ceasefire for Gaza,
04:51do you have any optimism that a breakthrough might be imminent?
04:54And if it is agreed, do you think it's going to hold?
04:58You know, optimism is a state of mind.
05:02We need to see something changes.
05:03I think they deliberately create optimism while they're creating to see exactly the kind of things
05:09we have seen today.
05:12Most of the parameters, or 99% of the parameters to achieve a ceasefire are known.
05:19What is the lack of leadership?
05:22By the way, by Hamas's word, and as a result of it,
05:26you need the international community to lean on both sides,
05:29to accept, as any agreement, it's not going to be perfect for either of the sides,
05:36but the current situation is horrific for the rest.
05:39So continuing to express both sides' optimism,
05:43but every day that goes by, it means more of dozens of people are being killed.
05:50There's no optimism left for them.
05:54And meanwhile, Netanyahu, he's still in the US, winding that trip up today.
05:58Do you think that behind the scenes, Donald Trump is leveraging US military aid
06:02to put pressure on him to agree to the terms of a deal?
06:07Again, we haven't seen this.
06:11There was this kind of the grotesque nomination of President Trump by Netanyahu
06:16for the Nobel Peace Prize.
06:18Fluttery works with President Trump, apparently.
06:23And we haven't seen not only progress on negotiation to reach a deal,
06:30but also to stop the operation, allowing more humanitarian aid.
06:35They created a mechanism there that the Israeli military provides humanitarian aid.
06:42But what we see, people are actually shot while they are queuing to get food.
06:47I don't see any leveraging from Washington, from the White House on Israel to achieve or to reach a deal.
06:57And what about what the EU is doing?
06:59It says today it struck a new deal with Israel to open up more crossings to increase aid into Gaza.
07:06You point out, though, that the very fact that this is being blocked, it's not a new tactic by Israel.
07:11You describe it as a tool of war.
07:14Why is it being allowed to continue?
07:17And this is the fact.
07:18If you're not allowing humanitarian aid to civilian population,
07:23it means you do it as a tool of war.
07:27And trying to, at the end of the day, for the civilian population,
07:32either they hope that it puts pressure on Hamas,
07:35but these kind of ideas have been floated and used for more than 20 years and didn't work,
07:42or the things that they will basically give up and leave.
07:46And we don't see this happening.
07:48And as long as, again, the international community doesn't use the kind of leverage that they had,
07:56this probably would continue, including the European Union.
08:00And I understand, you know, the international agenda is saturated with so many other issues.
08:08We just saw today the visit by President Macron here in London and the issue of migration and the issue of Ukraine.
08:15And they're all important issues.
08:17But at the same time, there is not enough attention to what is happening in Gaza
08:22and stopping it and ensuring at least that these scenes of people begging for food,
08:28for clean water, for medical aid, won't be repeated day after day.
08:35And you see, along with what's happening in Gaza,
08:37there's also mounting fears over the situation for Palestinians in the occupied West Bank,
08:42where thousands of homes are being demolished and more will be demolished in the coming weeks.
08:48And we've seen it for many months now.
08:52In some refugee camps, like in Jenin, we see almost similar operations by Israel as in Gaza.
09:00Some of the ministers actually saying that they would like to see Israel operating,
09:05at least in some areas in the West Bank, as they operated in Gaza.
09:11We hear about expansion of settlements, even for the first time in years of new settlements built,
09:20which means from the current government in Israel,
09:24which is a combination of a corrupt government and a very extreme government,
09:30is not interested either to end the war
09:32and definitely not in ending the conflict with the Palestinians in a peaceful way.
09:37And it is led to continue.
09:40And we get, and I hope this is not the case, to the expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza.
09:46Some of these, the same people,
09:48we probably would like to see something similar in the West Bank and the annexation,
09:53part of their messianic ideology.
09:56And is what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank?
09:59Is opposition growing to it in Israel?
10:02We're hearing that people are increasingly frustrated with the government of Benjamin Netanyahu.
10:07There is growing frustration.
10:09I think the war with Iran, that was no doubt a military success,
10:14increased a bit the popularity of Netanyahu,
10:18but not to an extent that we've seen all opinion polls,
10:21the opposition parties are doing better than the coalition one.
10:25There is fatigue of this war.
10:29People that are serving hundreds and hundreds of days in reserve,
10:33they suffer economically, families suffer from that.
10:37And also we saw that despite the military success with Iran,
10:42Israel is also vulnerable.
10:45So more than 70% of Israel, time and again,
10:49this is more than a year,
10:51they'd rather see the hostages back and end of war
10:55than even continuing the war and the elimination of Hamas.
11:00And they don't see that what the government promised them
11:03over the last 21 months actually is achievable.
11:07Yossi, thanks for being with us.
11:08That's Yossi Mecklenburg from Chatham House in London.
