- 10 months ago
A death spiral in Gaza with no end in sight; a Middle East peace process that’s been moribund for years. What’s the point of talking solutions when not even a truce is in sight? In New York next week, France is slated to co-chair with Saudi Arabia what's officially billed as a "UN International Conference for the Peaceful Settlement of the Question of Palestine and the Implementation of the Two-State Solution".
Emmanuel Macron had strongly suggested he would recognise a Palestinian state at the event. Is that still the case? We ask about the pressure on the French president to dial it back. With the US silent as Israel pounds Gaza and expands illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank, what does recognising Palestinian statehood change in practice? Watch more'The two-state solution is going to happen': Israel’s Olmert and ex-Palestinian FM Qudwa On Thursday, Paris will host a springboard event for New York. We hear from civil society participants at a conference hosted by the Paris Peace Forum. How to find common ground to proposals that can win over a population where positions have hardened for so long? Produced by Rebecca Gnignati, Aurore Laborie and Ilayda Habip.
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Emmanuel Macron had strongly suggested he would recognise a Palestinian state at the event. Is that still the case? We ask about the pressure on the French president to dial it back. With the US silent as Israel pounds Gaza and expands illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank, what does recognising Palestinian statehood change in practice? Watch more'The two-state solution is going to happen': Israel’s Olmert and ex-Palestinian FM Qudwa On Thursday, Paris will host a springboard event for New York. We hear from civil society participants at a conference hosted by the Paris Peace Forum. How to find common ground to proposals that can win over a population where positions have hardened for so long? Produced by Rebecca Gnignati, Aurore Laborie and Ilayda Habip.
Visit our website:
http://www.france24.com
Like us on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English
Follow us on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/France24_en
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NewsTranscript
00:00A death spiral in Gaza with no end in sight, a Middle East peace process that's been moribund for years.
00:18What's the point of talking solutions when not even a truce is in sight?
00:22In New York next week, France slated to co-chair with Saudi Arabia what's officially billed as a U.N. international conference for the peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine and the implementation of the two-state solution.
00:38Emmanuel Macron strongly suggested that that would be the venue where he might recognize a Palestinian state.
00:43Is it still the case? We'll ask about the pressure on the French president to dial it back.
00:50With the U.S. silent as Israel pounds Gaza and expands illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank, what does recognizing Palestinian statehood change in practice?
01:00On Thursday, on Friday rather, Paris to host a springboard event, you might call it.
01:05We'll hear from civil society participants in a conference hosted by the Paris Peace Forum, how to find common ground to proposals that can win over a population where positions have hardened for so long.
01:20Today in the France 24 debate, we're wondering if it's a utopia or is a two-state solution the only realistic option.
01:28Joining us from, with us here in Paris, taking part in that conference, East Jerusalem native Nivine Sandouka, Regional Director for the Alliance for Middle East Peace.
01:40It's an umbrella group, right, of various civic organizations.
01:43Thanks for joining us.
01:44Thank you so much for hosting me.
01:45Nobibar Yaakov, Associate Fellow at the Geneva Center for Security Policy.
01:51We're used to having you by video link from London.
01:53Welcome to our studios in Paris.
01:55Thank you very much for having me in the studio.
01:56A former French ambassador to Saudi Arabia and Qatar, Bertrand Besant-Snow.
02:02Good to see you.
02:03Thank you very much.
02:04And France 24's Shirley Sitbon covering it all.
02:07How are you?
02:08Okay, François.
02:09All right.
02:10By the way, on the go, you can always listen to the show wherever podcasts are streamed.
02:15Okay, so with no end in sight in Gaza, Israel's traditional allies no longer able to ignore their own public opinions.
02:22And it's on a visit to the Egyptian side of the Gaza border in April that Emmanuel Macron pointed to a formal recognition of a Palestinian state coming potentially, quote, in the coming months.
02:34That was followed up by a tweet, this tweet on April the 11th, where Macron said,
02:41I support the legitimate right of Palestinians to a state and to peace just as I support the right of Israelis to live in peace and security, both recognized by their neighbors.
02:51The upcoming conference on the two-state solution this June must be a turning point.
02:56That conference is the one next week.
03:00But as the conference draws closer, France's president seems to be hedging his bets, listing conditions, like when he spoke to reporters on a trip to Singapore two weeks ago.
03:11The creation of a Palestinian state must follow the release of hostages, the demilitarization of Hamas, and Hamas not being involved in its governance.
03:20It must also be accompanied by a reform of the Palestinian authority and must be a state that recognizes Israel and its right to live in security.
03:29Bertrand Besant-Snow, at no point has Emmanuel Macron stated categorically, I will recognize a Palestinian state in New York mid-June.
03:37But, judging by the wording, the diplomatic ease that we've just unveiled here, is he dialing it back?
03:49We have heard exactly what he said in Singapore, where it was said in diplomatic terms, this is clear.
03:56The intention of recognizing a Palestinian state is clear.
04:00Now, the matter is when and how.
04:03Of course, there is the opportunity of the conference in New York.
04:08And of course, I cannot speak for President Macron.
04:11But my understanding is that the decision is certainly made in his mind.
04:17But he would wish to have more collective move instead of a French alone decision.
04:27Collective means who?
04:28But partners like UK, Canada, Belgium or others.
04:33At least it is my understanding that he thinks it would be much more important if you had a move.
04:40And in particular, this conference in New York has a very clear purpose, which is to launch a kind of momentum in favor of the solution of two states,
04:51building on the fact that a huge majority of states have already recognized the Palestinian state.
04:58So the purpose is very clear.
05:01Now, of course, as you said, there are pressure coming from different sides.
05:06And there is there are eight groups working in New York already.
05:12And of course, the decision will be made knowing what can be said in the communiqué and on what President Macron and others can rely to make their own decision.
05:24So I think the aim is clear.
05:30The timing is still a question mark.
05:33The timing is still a question mark.
05:35So if you're a betting man, would you say, yes, he will in New York say, I recognize a Palestinian state or the star is not alive?
05:42My personal feeling is that, no, he will wait to see exactly what what will be said in the communiqué.
05:51If there is, for example, a very compelling process towards the creation of a Palestinian state, this might assist.
06:01It is true also that the only person who can really put pressure on the Israeli is President Trump.
06:08So there are already, of course, discussion.
06:13And I'm sure that to take the other person who will be important on that, it is the Saudi crown prince.
06:19But on one hand, he made it very clear, his position.
06:24On the other hand, he knows that President Trump is the only one to be able to make pressure on Netanyahu.
06:32So I don't know exactly how he will manage.
06:34So this is the problem, not the objective.
06:38The problem is the timing and the modalities.
06:40All right.
06:40I want to talk about those protagonists with Sherely Sipton.
06:42But before I do, let me give you a few more of the little elements we're getting regarding this conference next week.
06:49French newspaper of record Le Monde harks back to Macron's initial hope of what Ambassador Besant Snow just described,
06:55this snowball effect with other European allies joining the initiative.
07:00In its reporting, it says that without that support, Emmanuel Macron could opt for a gradual formula.
07:06For instance, the promise of statehood linked to the disarmament of Hamas and a reform of the Palestinian Authority.
07:12A little bit of what we heard from that clip from Singapore.
07:15Without that support, the, the, the, the, but CNN speaking to a presidential palace source here in Paris,
07:24noticed a bit of equivocation on the equivocation, if you will.
07:30We can clearly see that some have an interest in suggesting that we are not moving in the direction of recognition.
07:37That is false.
07:38We are determined to recognize a Palestinian state in order to create the conditions for the state's existence.
07:45Great quote, Sherely Sipton, but of course, it still doesn't say when the French president will recognize a Palestinian state.
07:52Yes. I mean, he could say what he said when we heard him earlier saying, yes, we're recognizing it.
07:59But with a timetable and all of the conditions, it's still different from the situation today where France did not set that timetable.
08:06It always said that it was waiting for the right time and then it will declare, will recognize Palestine's independence.
08:13And now it's, it's moving around, it's shifting a bit, uh, its usual approach, uh, doesn't make a difference.
08:20Maybe we felt he was forced to do this because of the situation in Gaza, because of what's happening in the West Bank.
08:25The fact that Bezalel Smotrich and, and, uh, you know, Tamar Ben-Gvir were pushing for this or saying that they really, we're seeing it on the ground in the West Bank.
08:34He felt that he had to do something now.
08:36Otherwise, well, you know, this would remain in history as France not doing anything when so many countries have recognized Palestine.
08:42So both of those far right, uh, ministers, uh, this week sanctioned by the UK, Australia and Canada, does that point to the kind of snowball of enough of the snowball effect that, uh, ambassador Bezalel Smotrich was referring to there?
08:57Yes, but I wouldn't say ironically, but at the same time, they're saying that if Emmanuel Macron does recognize Palestine's independence, the fact that it's a state, then they will, you know, they, they will move even faster in the West Bank and claim new territory.
09:10So it's, you know, France is always also, um, afraid of that situation of actually encouraging that type of, uh, extremist, uh, cycle and at the same time being just left behind with a recognition, which won't have much positive effect, but more of a negative effect.
09:27And we've had plenty of coverage of this flotilla for Gaza that, uh, uh, in the last week, uh, the Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg, but a household name here in France is that French member of the European Parliament of Palestinian origin, Rima Hassan.
09:40Again, these, these things that are in the public eye, the strike that we saw at, at the, of Dockers in Marseille, who didn't want to export French military goods to Israel.
09:50Does that weigh on Macron?
09:51Uh, it's difficult to say, I mean, I guess everything weighs, the Dockers, uh, story is, was, uh, a bit shocking though, because France always said that it did not send any weapons to Israel, only defensive elements for the Iron Dome.
10:07So here we're actually saying that France did not really say the truth.
10:12There were secret shipments.
10:14They said that they were sending it to Israel, but then Israel would export it to another country.
10:17So that, that's something that's, I guess the government can't just not react to.
10:22I guess it does have some kind of influence, but there are so many elements at the same time.
10:25I guess it's not as major of what's actually going on on the ground.
10:29That's the most important effect for Emmanuel Macron.
10:32So, uh, Nevin Sandouk, again, with the, uh, the situation, what it is, with what Shirley just described, those ministers saying, well, if you recognize a Palestinian state, we're going to have even more settlements.
10:45A country like France recognizing a Palestinian state, is it just a symbol?
10:53It is a symbol, but not just a symbol.
10:56First of all, the urgency on the ground.
10:58As a Palestinian who've lived in all my life in Palestine, I have never seen the situation far worse than this.
11:04There is, um, mass murder happening in Gaza.
11:07People are being starved and being killed where they are going there to pick up their food.
11:11They're also being targeted.
11:13The settlements and the settlement expansion in the West Bank is continuing as well.
11:17Settler violence.
11:18There's no, no stopping for the settler violence.
11:21Just today, there were more incidents in Nablus and main cities in the West Bank as well.
11:25Closures and checkpoints, disconnect of, of West Bank cities from one another, freedom of movement.
11:31We cannot talk about it anymore because it doesn't exist.
11:34So there are urgency on the ground right now.
11:37So even if, um, we're saying this is just a symbol and we're afraid that if recognition happens, then the Israeli government might do extra measures.
11:48Honestly, I don't know what these extra measures are.
11:50And honestly speaking, the recognition is very important for us as Palestinians right now because it might be one way where Israel can be held accountable under the international humanitarian law as one state actually invading and attacking another state, which is the state of Palestine.
12:07Right now, we're not a state, an official state of Palestine.
12:10Being two equals under international humanitarian law, and I'll leave it to the experts here, have a different implication if we're talking about it from the international humanitarian law perspective.
12:22At the same time, it's really important, I think, for the international leaders, starting from France, to recognize the state of Palestine, because what is happening in Palestine is not only staying in occupied Palestine.
12:34It's actually, uh, spinning outwards in the form of Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, and I'm pretty sure every single citizen have witnessed that in their own countries, most probably France as well.
12:45Anti-Semitism has grown, has, has, uh, enormously increased.
12:50Islamophobia has enormously increased.
12:52The, uh, the, uh, demonstrations that are happening all over the world, because there is a need to basically, um, control the situation, end the war.
13:01This is the first thing and most important thing is to end the war, to stop the killing of the Palestinians, to bring back humanitarian aid, and of course, to release the hostages.
13:10And both Palestinians and Israelis are demanding this.
13:13In fact, just tomorrow, there's going to be a very big conference in Paris calling for the recognition of the Palestinian state,
13:20calling for ending the war and bringing back the hostages.
13:23Yeah, I want to talk more about how you implement that two-state solution in a bit.
13:26But first, just to be complete about this, does he or does he not recognize a Palestinian state?
13:33When you see Emmanuel Macron saying, well, first, we need to make sure there's no Hamas.
13:37What's your reaction?
13:40Um, first of all, um, I think it's really important to look at what President Mahmoud Abbas has stated this morning.
13:48And actually, President Macron has retweeted exactly what President Macron has said.
13:51In the last 24 hours.
13:52Exactly.
13:53So we were talking about the Palestinian Authority is willing to do the reforms.
13:57He even, President Abbas condemned the 7th of October.
14:00And I think right now we are at every Palestinian is actually saying we need for Hamas to disarm,
14:07and we need to have a reform within the Palestinian Authority itself.
14:11Now, Nami Bar-Yarkov, just to be complete, there's this conference in New York next week,
14:15the conference you're attending on Friday here in Paris.
14:19In between the two, there's a G7 summit.
14:22And Emmanuel Macron will be, at one point or another, sitting down with a Donald Trump,
14:27who's already blasted next week's conference at the UN.
14:31Well, he's called for states not to attend, and he's called for his own staff not to attend,
14:36State Department staff not to attend.
14:38So, I mean, and he is withdrawing his own staff from embassies in neighboring countries to Iran,
14:48certainly all Iraq, but also Kuwait and Bahrain.
14:51So, you know, there's also that preparation for potential Israeli strike.
14:54And all this, you can't ignore it because it's all Middle East and it's all related.
14:58So, you know, if he hardens his stance against Hamas, which is funded by Iran and armed by Iran,
15:07then he's going to take a much, much harsher stance.
15:12So, A, to answer your question of what Macron is going to do,
15:14it depends on what happens and all of those other fronts.
15:16And I don't think Macron will act alone.
15:19And I don't think he will act necessarily against Trump,
15:22because he will speak to him before he makes a decision.
15:27And he tends to pivot, Macron.
15:28He always...
15:29So, you're saying it'll be Macron who pivots more than Donald Trump?
15:33I'm not saying he pivots more.
15:34They both pivot.
15:36I'm not...
15:36There's not a competition of who pivots more.
15:38And they're very different characters.
15:39So, I would not like to compare the two at all.
15:43But...
15:45No, I'm not comparing.
15:48But he is impulsive and he does pivot.
15:51And I think he will be advised,
15:53well-advised to consult broadly about the ramifications.
15:57And I think that is actually what he's going to do.
15:59Now, the Élysée came out for the palace.
16:01They basically published the letter
16:04that Naveen has very eloquently outlined just now.
16:11And, you know, Abbas is 89 years old.
16:14He's deeply unpopular.
16:16He's viewed as a dictator who has not served his own people.
16:20I mean, all the governments, Israeli government, Palestinian government in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza,
16:25were elected democratically but did not serve...
16:27Not acting democratically.
16:29Acting in an autocratic fashion and not serving the interests of their own people.
16:32So, it's very clear that we need changes in all, you know, those areas.
16:37So, you know, so the fact that Abbas writes that this is going to happen,
16:41it's a beginning of a process.
16:42But he needs to commit to the reforms.
16:45We need to see what exactly...
16:47So, there needs to be pressure on him?
16:48I'm sorry?
16:49There needs to be pressure on him?
16:50There needs to be... It's imminent.
16:51It's, as Naveen just said, it's urgent.
16:53It's beyond urgent.
16:54The situation has never been as catastrophic as it is in both the West Bank and Gaza.
17:01And the West Bank isn't spoken very much about, but there is basically forced movement of Palestinians
17:09from very, very large areas in very large numbers.
17:13You know, you're seeing dozens of thousands.
17:14It's not over 100 here or 5 there.
17:16And, you know, numbers...
17:18And that isn't getting enough attention.
17:20And that's where the danger is.
17:21And Gaza, of course, you know, is on the brink of a civil war
17:24because there's armament of factions against Hamas by Israel.
17:30By Israel.
17:30So, yes, yes, I'm getting there.
17:33So, it's...
17:35You know, you are in a very volatile situation.
17:38So, if you're recognizing a state, what are you recognizing?
17:41And are you doing it alone?
17:42No, it's much better to do it in a united fashion
17:44with a declaration of what this actually means and what needs to happen.
17:48So, timing, as Bertrand said, is of the essence.
17:51And things can go, ripple in very negative directions.
17:56I mean, we've...
17:57Everything, the trajectories at the moment are very negative.
18:00The question is, how does Macron help to reverse them?
18:03Well, we'll get a bellwether of all of that coming from Riyadh, probably.
18:09The Times of Israel reporting this Thursday
18:11that the Saudi crown prince has told his staff to keep his plane to hand
18:16just in case he does want to jet over to New York and join Macron.
18:20In person, Bertrand Besant-Snow, the idea is if MBS, Mohammed bin Salman, shows up,
18:29it means something's happening.
18:32And perhaps we will get that recognition of a Palestinian state.
18:34If he doesn't...
18:36Hmm.
18:36To be frank, you know, if...
18:40One, there will be a recognition by France of a state of Palestine.
18:45It will be a significant move because France is a permanent member of the Security Council
18:51that he has...
18:53Our country has good friends in the world,
18:56so it can facilitate the same decision by others.
19:02And...
19:02But also because France is an active player in the Middle East
19:07and Macron has been quite active during the last period.
19:12Now...
19:12He's been quite active, but as Shirley was pointing out,
19:15he hasn't done that arms embargo that we saw General de Gaulle do in 1967, for instance.
19:21No, no, no, no, no.
19:21But I'm not putting the General de Gaulle and him in the same category.
19:26But if I may, you know, to make his decision,
19:31I think there are two factors.
19:33The first one is, of course,
19:35he will talk with President Trump in the G7.
19:38Well, we know what is the American position,
19:41but he will try certainly to say we need to do something,
19:46the conference in itself,
19:48especially because it is not a French initiative.
19:51It is a Saudi-French initiative.
19:54And we know that President Trump wants to have, at some point,
19:58a normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel.
20:01So the other person...
20:03Would you say that Donald Trump loves Saudi Arabia,
20:08even more than Israel?
20:10No, no, I don't say that.
20:11But President Trump has visited the Gulf.
20:14He was in Saudi Arabia.
20:17The message that he heard from all the Gulf countries,
20:20in fact, not only Saudi Arabia,
20:23was a very clear message.
20:24That means we are ready to recognize,
20:27but, of course, it can be only in the framework
20:31of the establishment of a clear, compelling process
20:35towards the establishment of a Palestinian state.
20:40So he heard that, and he knew that if he wants,
20:44as he sees himself as a man of peace,
20:47if he wants to achieve that,
20:49he has to take into account what is, of course,
20:52the Israeli ally, but also the Saudi ally,
20:55which is extremely important for him.
20:57So I think that for the time being,
21:01you will get discussion between Trump and President Macron.
21:06But certainly, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia
21:10is waiting to see what are the things
21:15that can be really expected.
21:17If there is, at least for me, it is the minimum,
21:21in the communique, something which will show
21:25a real commitment to a process, a real process,
21:30a compelling process towards the establishment
21:32of a Palestinian state, I'm sure that he will come,
21:35of course.
21:36If he's not sure, this is why the discussions
21:38that are going on in the different groups
21:41are important.
21:43And this is why I think we are in a moving situation.
21:46So this is why it's a little bit difficult
21:48to bet on what will be decided.
21:50We know what is the outcome at the end of the day.
21:53We don't know when and what will be the precise modalities.
21:56Ambassador, you bring us to the heart of the matter here.
21:59What is a real process that brings
22:02a two-state solution about,
22:05the kind that was trumpeted after the 1992 Oslo Accords
22:09and never came to be, never going to be easy,
22:12particularly in light of those 1967 borders
22:15of what we've seen the last 500 days plus
22:19in the Gaza Strip,
22:21and a hardening of positions on both sides.
22:26Nivin Sanduka, for your organization,
22:29the Alliance for Middle East Peace,
22:32how do you do a process?
22:34We talk about the two-state solution.
22:36It just feels like kind of like rhetoric,
22:39empty rhetoric when people say the words.
22:41For you, how do you make that concrete?
22:46Well, the Alliance for Middle East Peace All Map,
22:48as you mentioned,
22:49is a network of 170 peace-building organizations
22:53that exist within civil society,
22:55both Palestinians and Israelis.
22:57That alone should tell you
22:59that the two-state solution is actually feasible.
23:01When you think of the number of peace builders
23:04that can actually reach up to thousands,
23:06both Palestinians and Israelis,
23:08the thing is we were never given a chance to be heard.
23:12If you look at all the solutions
23:13that leaders are discussing,
23:15it's the classical two-state solution,
23:17and maybe they don't even know how it looks like
23:18or what that is.
23:20But if you look at the civil society
23:21and what we offer,
23:23we offer many different versions
23:25of the two-state solution,
23:26and we offer solutions
23:27that the people themselves are going to agree with
23:30because we work with the people,
23:32we understand the grassroots
23:33and what that actually means.
23:35So for the first time,
23:36we're actually offered the space
23:37to be heard in Paris on Friday,
23:40and we're offered the space actually
23:42to bring out the solutions
23:44and what we think.
23:45And for the first time we're going,
23:46we're able to feed into the working groups
23:48that are happening in New York.
23:50And what does a real process look like?
23:53At the political level?
23:54Yes, for next week.
23:56They'll give the Saudis that feeling
23:59that, ah, this is a real process
24:01on the road to something.
24:03I think it starts with
24:06what are we negotiating?
24:07Who is negotiating here for what?
24:09The recognition.
24:10It starts with a recognition
24:11of a Palestinian state,
24:12and then it also has to do
24:14a lot with reform.
24:15And as a Palestinian,
24:16I have to say,
24:17when I hear all the time
24:18that only Palestinians
24:19need to do the reform,
24:20that's amazing.
24:21But what about the other side
24:22that is doing
24:24and continuing this war?
24:26They didn't keep their word
24:28on the truth in Gaza,
24:29the last truth.
24:30They restarted the war again
24:32and all the atrocities
24:36that we are witnessing.
24:38Both sides should be held accountable
24:41and both sides should have reform.
24:43And the international community
24:45really has a role to play
24:46from the top-down approach.
24:49But at the same time,
24:50the bottom-up approach
24:51needs to also be heard
24:52and needs to be supported.
24:53What is the international community?
24:55Now, it's usually been the United States.
24:58No, I think we have given that role
25:02to the United States.
25:03The world is much stronger
25:04than just the United States.
25:06But concretely in 2025,
25:08who can make this happen?
25:11Put the radicals aside
25:12and bring groups like yours
25:15into the limelight.
25:17Yeah.
25:17Who can do it?
25:19Now we are up in Paris,
25:21the working group,
25:22the global alliance
25:23that has the will,
25:24the Arabs,
25:25because we have put since,
25:26not we,
25:27the Arabs have put forward
25:28in 2002 the Arab Peace Initiative.
25:30There is an international will.
25:33If the United States itself,
25:34I feel, honestly,
25:35I feel that the United States
25:36is with Israel on one side,
25:39but then there's the world
25:40in another side
25:40that's actually wanting
25:41a different reality right now.
25:43And I feel that if we unite,
25:46specifically under the global alliance,
25:48starting from tomorrow, Friday,
25:51onwards,
25:52then we can actually start that process.
25:54It starts with a recognition
25:57of a Palestinian state.
25:58Do you agree with that,
25:59Nomi Bariakov?
26:00I think, I think,
26:00I mean, to say what a process is,
26:03Naveen was talking about
26:04the community role,
26:05and I think the community role
26:06is vitally important.
26:09And I think that communities,
26:10the peace will come
26:11from the communities
26:12because the people want that.
26:14But you're working bottom up
26:15and you're working top down
26:16and you're heading
26:16towards elections and all,
26:18you know, I mean,
26:19Palestine is currently divided.
26:20So when I say
26:21you're having elections,
26:22I mean, you're having elections,
26:23you will have elections in Palestine
26:24after you have
26:24a technocratic government.
26:26The Israeli government
26:27almost fell a couple of days ago.
26:28You know, it may,
26:29it eventually will fall.
26:30Eventually there will be elections.
26:32And the preparation has to come
26:34also from European states.
26:37I think the U.S.
26:37has completely lost credibility
26:39as a quote.
26:40I was never a neutral negotiator,
26:42ever.
26:43It was always sided with Israel,
26:44but the U.S.
26:45were the lead negotiators.
26:47I think you asked earlier,
26:48you asked Bertrand
26:49whether Trump is more buddy-buddies
26:53or more interested in the Gulf
26:54than in Israel.
26:55I think he is very interested
26:56in the Gulf.
26:57And the fact that he traveled
26:58to Saudi Arabia, Qatar and UAE
27:02in that order
27:03and did not stop over in Israel
27:05and is extremely, extremely significant.
27:10And I think he's, again,
27:11he's pivots
27:12and he certainly pivots
27:13much more than Macron.
27:14And it's a question
27:16and I wouldn't compare at all
27:18how, you know, they shift.
27:20But the shift with Trump,
27:23you know, he could listen
27:25and tune in to the Gulf
27:27because he's very interested
27:28in their money
27:30and in what they can offer
27:32because everyone says,
27:33oh, he doesn't have a strategy.
27:34What is his long-term strategy?
27:35His long-term strategy
27:36is to make himself
27:37and his family rich.
27:39And the deals are not with Israel.
27:41The deals are with the Gulf.
27:42So how is he going to balance that?
27:43And I think that's
27:44a very important issue to remember.
27:46And I think he does respect,
27:48deeply respect,
27:49the crown prince of Saudi Arabia,
27:53the emir of Qatar,
27:55and there's very,
27:56and the leaders in the royal family
28:02in the UAE.
28:04And I think their role is increasing.
28:06And what you're going to see
28:07in terms of mediation of a process
28:09is you're going to see
28:10a Gulf-led process
28:12with an organic build
28:15that Neveen was talking about.
28:17You know, the communities
28:17are leading with ideas.
28:20They're being heard.
28:21Tomorrow is a platform.
28:23New York next week
28:24is a continuation of that platform.
28:26Basically, what Paris is doing tomorrow,
28:27and they're insistent,
28:28they're just doing it on the 13th,
28:30you know, one day, Friday,
28:31and they're having,
28:32I just read my invitation
28:33very, very, very carefully.
28:34And it is a prelude to New York.
28:38So Macron basically wants
28:40to take some ownership
28:41over the process
28:42and to say,
28:43we did the preparatory work.
28:45But it is very much
28:46what they call a prepcom,
28:47a preparatory conference
28:49for the bigger conference
28:51that at the moment,
28:53Trump is against.
28:54But Trump will have to liaise
28:55with the Gulf.
28:56And ultimately,
28:57the solution for Palestine
28:58and Israel is going to come
28:59from the people of Palestine
29:01and Israel,
29:03which of course includes Palestine,
29:04the West Bank and Gaza.
29:05And there is no others
29:06and the Gulf states
29:08and the neighbouring states,
29:09Arab and Egypt and Jordan,
29:11because you cannot do anything
29:12without Egypt and Jordan
29:14that already have peace treaties
29:15with Israel
29:16and have borders
29:18with Israel and Palestine.
29:20And you absolutely,
29:22absolutely can't do anything
29:24without the US.
29:25And then we can ask
29:26where Europe is.
29:27Well, it's about time
29:28that Europe brought its act together
29:29and acted in a more united
29:31and forceful fashion.
29:32But if the Gulf and Europe lead,
29:36then the question is,
29:38you know,
29:38where does that leave us?
29:39And you usually hang your hat
29:40in London.
29:42You have a Labour government now,
29:44Labour,
29:44which overcame this reputation
29:48of under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership
29:50of being anti-Semitic.
29:52So therefore,
29:53how far will the Keir Starmer Labour Party go?
29:57I think they'll go quite far, actually.
29:59I think they are leading,
30:01they already imposed sanctions
30:03on two right-wing ministers in Israel,
30:06Bezalel Smotrich
30:07and Itamar Ben-Gvir last week,
30:10together with a number of states
30:11you mentioned in your introduction,
30:13also including New Zealand
30:15and Norway,
30:17among the others.
30:19So, you know, again,
30:19they're doing it in cohorts
30:20and that's, I think,
30:21what Macron will wait for.
30:22And I think the UK will go further.
30:24How far they will go,
30:26you know,
30:26remains to be seen,
30:27but they will definitely go further.
30:30It also depends, of course,
30:31on what happens in, you know,
30:33in Gaza.
30:34If there's continuing famine, basically,
30:38if people are continuing to be that hungry
30:42that they are dying
30:43and malnourished babies
30:45are not developing properly
30:46or dying in the womb,
30:47that situation cannot continue
30:50and the UK will take action.
30:51And I think that they are definitely
30:53moving towards a more proactive role.
30:57But just on the two states,
30:58which, you know,
30:58is what the subject matter is,
30:59there isn't any other alternative.
31:01You know, what is your alternative?
31:03You have the people,
31:04the Israelis are not going anywhere,
31:06the Palestinians are not going anywhere.
31:07This idea that the Palestinians
31:08can go elsewhere is lunacy
31:10and they have to work out how to work,
31:14how to live together.
31:15And they have to be alternatives
31:17to the extremes.
31:19They have to be given
31:21a viable, healthy alternative.
31:24And that's urgent.
31:25It's beyond urgent.
31:27Covering the story from Paris,
31:28Shirley Sitbaum,
31:29do you feel as though here
31:31public opinion has shifted
31:34or public opinion has grown weary
31:36and indifferent?
31:39Difficult question.
31:40I mean, we're seeing many, many protests,
31:42but I don't know if it's increasing.
31:45But yeah, people are really getting
31:46extremely worried for the Palestinians.
31:50Really, you know,
31:51they can't take this anymore.
31:53The situation is, as you've said,
31:55beyond, beyond, beyond dramatic.
31:57So yes, people want real action
32:00and real change.
32:01At the same time,
32:03many people are still indifferent,
32:04as you see public opinion,
32:06when you look at the figures.
32:08I was just thinking about the change
32:10that needs to be made
32:11on the Israeli side,
32:12because we're talking
32:14about these extremists.
32:16But even the alternative,
32:17even if you encourage,
32:20you show the basic voter
32:22that there are alternatives,
32:24that there's hope,
32:25that there can be a future,
32:27even when you look,
32:27even if the Benjamin Netanyahu
32:29majority fails
32:31and you have the other side,
32:32the Naftali Bennett side that wins,
32:34that's not the left.
32:35That's not people who want
32:37a two-state solution.
32:38So there needs to be
32:40a significant, significant change,
32:43because the alternative,
32:44which the Israelis see
32:45as the left and the center,
32:46is not that.
32:47And we saw a left-wing politician
32:48recently denounce the killing
32:49of children in Gaza,
32:51and he got crucified for it
32:53in the media.
32:54It depends which media,
32:57because some support him.
32:59It really depends.
33:00But his figures did not really change.
33:04He remained the same.
33:05Actually, some people are saying
33:06we're now voting for him
33:07because of what he said.
33:08Other people are saying,
33:09hey, I was for you,
33:10but you shocked me.
33:11The thing is,
33:12he said he was talking
33:16on a live interview,
33:18and basically it was seen
33:19as if he was attacking
33:20the soldiers who have to go
33:22to do the army.
33:23Many have died.
33:24So this was the shocking part.
33:25But the fact that he said
33:26that then he changed,
33:27he said it was the government
33:27I was talking about.
33:29And when he said that,
33:30then people really
33:30can understand that
33:31because you can hear that
33:32all day long.
33:33And a majority of Israelis
33:34want to end this war.
33:35First of all, of course,
33:37for the hostages
33:37and for the soldiers
33:38and to end this war.
33:40But also,
33:40more and more people
33:41are talking about
33:42what's happening
33:43with the Palestinians,
33:44especially in Gaza.
33:45So yes,
33:46there is a will to change,
33:48but the situation
33:49is much more complicated
33:51than during Oslo
33:52and in the 90s
33:54and in the 2000s.
33:55It's more complicated now.
33:56A much more complicated
33:58David Sandouk,
33:59but you still believe.
34:01Yes, absolutely.
34:03First of all,
34:04I'm a mother
34:04and I want my son
34:06who's 15 years old
34:07to grow in a better situation
34:08than I did.
34:09That's the first thing.
34:10The other thing is that
34:12if you think about it,
34:12if we give up now
34:14as peace builders
34:14who are,
34:15we're having right now
34:17300 of them in Paris,
34:19if we give up,
34:21what is the alternative?
34:23Who's going to lead?
34:24Who is going to basically
34:26have their voice heard?
34:28It's the extremists
34:28on both sides.
34:30Actually,
34:30I just wanted to say
34:31about another change
34:32that's happening in Israel.
34:34The government sees
34:35the work of civil society
34:36as a threat
34:37that they're threatening
34:39to tax the funding
34:41of these civil society organizations,
34:43especially the ones
34:45that are mostly
34:45going to be affected
34:46are the ones
34:47who actually work
34:47on human rights
34:48and on peace building.
34:50So it is a threat
34:52to the Israeli government,
34:54the civil society.
34:55In addition,
34:55there has been
34:56many demonstrations
34:57recently within Israel
34:59not only to bring back
35:00the hostages,
35:01but for the first time
35:03since the beginning
35:03of the war,
35:04they're also holding
35:05pictures of babies
35:07that were killed
35:08in Gaza
35:08and they're marching
35:09towards the borders.
35:11So there's change
35:11within the Israeli
35:12civil society.
35:13But is this a tiny minority?
35:15You heard Shirley Sikhon say.
35:17No, it's not a tiny minority
35:18and it started
35:20at the beginning
35:20of the war in Jerusalem
35:21as a tiny minority,
35:23but ever since,
35:24like recently,
35:24maybe in the past
35:25two months or so,
35:26it has really grown significantly.
35:29Bertrand,
35:29do you know?
35:29No, I fully agree
35:30with what has been said.
35:33Of course,
35:34it is difficult
35:34to know precisely
35:35where is the public opinion
35:37in Israel,
35:38but we can see
35:39that for nearly two years,
35:41you had hundreds
35:42of thousands of people
35:44in the streets
35:46criticizing the government.
35:48And during the last period,
35:50as this was said,
35:52you could see
35:52that emotionally,
35:54even in Israel itself,
35:56of course,
35:57the people see
35:58that Netanyahu
35:59is going much too far.
36:02We hear as well
36:03that his political situation
36:05is starting
36:06to be very difficult.
36:08Of course,
36:08he stayed in power,
36:10but I don't know
36:10for how long,
36:12but many people think
36:13that if the war ends
36:15and the only person
36:16who can impose
36:18the end of the war
36:19is, of course,
36:20President Trump.
36:21But if this happened,
36:24and especially
36:24under the pressure
36:25of the Gulf countries,
36:27as this was said,
36:28you might see
36:29different things.
36:31The population
36:31on both sides
36:32can see the situation
36:34in very different ways.
36:37We saw in history
36:38that, for example,
36:39Begin,
36:39who was a very hawkish person,
36:41at some point,
36:43he signed
36:44the Oslo agreements.
36:47So it means
36:48that the things
36:48can change
36:49and they can change
36:50quickly.
36:51So we have
36:52to remain optimistic,
36:54even if it is difficult.
36:56It is clear
36:57that when you are
36:58in a time
36:58of confrontation,
37:00the people
37:00don't have in mind
37:01the peace building.
37:02They are suffering.
37:04That's what people
37:04have been saying
37:04since October 7th, 2023.
37:06Yes, right now,
37:07people want revenge.
37:08People are scared.
37:09But don't worry.
37:11Afterwards,
37:12there will be a change.
37:13But that change
37:13is not coming.
37:15But for one reason,
37:16it is because
37:16Prime Minister Netanyahu
37:19is still going on
37:20with the same aggression.
37:21So this is the problem
37:23that we are faced with.
37:26And he is also giving up
37:27on his own hostages as well.
37:29This is what's
37:29triggering the Israelis.
37:30He did right from the beginning.
37:31We did right from the beginning
37:32and I think opposition
37:33to Netanyahu
37:34is definitely growing.
37:35It's definitely growing
37:37without a shadow of doubt.
37:38I don't think
37:39that the two states
37:40in Israel,
37:40because Israel doesn't,
37:42the average Israeli
37:43or most Israelis
37:43don't know
37:44and it's not clear-cut at all
37:46what kind of security guarantees
37:48the state will get,
37:49you know,
37:49to ensure that another
37:507th October won't occur.
37:53And I think those,
37:54and we asked about a process.
37:55You need to build
37:56all of those very,
37:57very important questions
37:58and that for me
37:59is the key question,
38:00is if you want to advocate
38:01for a two-state solution
38:03in Israel,
38:03which I think
38:04is the only solution,
38:05I reiterate,
38:06it's the only way forward,
38:08the details
38:10of how Palestine
38:11will be secure
38:12and Israel will be secure,
38:14you know,
38:15are absolutely critical.
38:17Because unless
38:19that is crystal clear
38:21and that issue is solved
38:22and it's a tricky one,
38:23the Israeli public
38:24will vote for
38:25Naftali Bennett
38:25and not for
38:27Yair Golan,
38:28who will,
38:30no Israeli politician
38:31is going to run
38:32on a platform
38:33of two-state solution,
38:34otherwise they won't
38:34win the election.
38:35So we also need
38:36to keep that in mind
38:37as observers
38:38that there is
38:39a rhetoric for election
38:41and then there's
38:41action thereafter.
38:43But it doesn't mean
38:43to say that they're
38:44not fully aware
38:45of the fact
38:45that that is
38:46the only way forward
38:47and they actually believe it.
38:48The vegan scenario.
38:49If I may, sorry,
38:50if I just may continue
38:51that line of thought.
38:53Of course.
38:53I think when we talk
38:54about the two-state solution
38:55and the feasibility of it,
38:57it needs to come
38:58under the regional framework
39:00as well.
39:00And there needs to be
39:01a lot of economic investments.
39:03There needs to be
39:04a process of reconciliation.
39:05And there needs to be
39:06a process of both people
39:08seeing that,
39:09okay, with peace,
39:10there's prosperity,
39:12there's trust,
39:13there's our story,
39:14our narrative
39:15is being recognized
39:16on both sides.
39:17And really,
39:18that needs to be put
39:19under a regional framework.
39:21And there's where
39:21the role of the Gulf
39:23comes in.
39:23Specifically, by the way,
39:25all these countries
39:25that signed
39:26the Abrahamic Accords.
39:27I believe so far
39:28they didn't put
39:29that pressure,
39:30but they set
39:31a very good example
39:32of what normalization
39:33can look like
39:33for the Israelis.
39:34And the Saudis want it.
39:36And the Saudis really want it.
39:37And that the Saudis
39:38would push for two states
39:40because they want
39:41the economic deal.
39:42They cannot do it,
39:43you know.
39:44And Israelis...
39:45Israelis want it,
39:47but they don't...
39:48Israelis will want it.
39:49I mean,
39:49I'm putting the government
39:50and the extremes aside,
39:52but the Israelis
39:54need to be reassured
39:55that there will be
39:56security guarantees.
39:57For the Arab world,
39:58for all of the Arab world,
39:59it's crystal clear
40:00that if there is normalization,
40:01that's a security guarantee.
40:03That in and of itself
40:04for Israelis
40:04isn't sufficient.
40:05So that needs
40:06to be ironed out.
40:07For Palestinians,
40:08it's absolutely vital
40:09that the economic prosperity
40:10feeds in immediately.
40:12And also for Israelis.
40:13And you need urgently
40:15to work on joint projects.
40:18So you have,
40:19you know,
40:19and you need to work
40:20on the trauma,
40:21both individual
40:21and collective,
40:22because both societies
40:24are deeply traumatized.
40:25So there are plenty
40:26of issues in the process
40:27that have to be dealt with.
40:29Each side needs to hear
40:31each other's side's stories.
40:33By the way,
40:33when she's not on her screens,
40:35France 24's social mediator,
40:37Jade Ayou,
40:38likes to immerse herself
40:39in Parisian hip-hop culture.
40:41So when she heard
40:42that our panel was coming,
40:44that got her thinking.
40:45In my spare time,
40:48I dance,
40:50living in the hip-hop culture
40:51in France.
40:52So I wonder,
40:53is there any hip-hop dancers
40:55in Gaza?
40:57Yes, there is.
40:58Not just one,
41:00there's a team.
41:03Me and Ajur,
41:04we make Breaking 48.
41:06It's the name of the team.
41:07Breaking is mean
41:08the break dance.
41:0948 is mean 1948.
41:11It's the day for
41:12Nakba for Palestinians
41:13when we leave the country.
41:14We try to make to them
41:15some activities
41:16and to make them
41:17to forget the situation,
41:20even if a little bit
41:21with our help.
41:24But it's far from easy
41:26in Gaza.
41:28Of course,
41:29I can't forget
41:29when we make the activities
41:30and make the circle
41:31for the kids
41:32in the schools
41:33or in the streets
41:34and the bomb happens
41:35and the kids run away.
41:36You are in this circle
41:38to help them
41:39to forget the genocide
41:40and the bomb happens.
41:41Like, make them
41:42run like this.
41:43We try to control
41:44sometimes we can
41:45control this circle
41:46and sometimes not.
41:47Yeah.
41:48They're still dancing
42:12even if they don't have
42:13the food.
42:14We are here.
42:15We're also normal,
42:16human.
42:17Gazan people
42:18is like any people
42:19in the world.
42:20They have sport,
42:20they have dreams,
42:21they have goals.
42:22Yeah.
42:23I feel I'm fine
42:25when I dance
42:25even when I have
42:26hard times.
42:27This is our resistance
42:28to keep us here.
42:31Like, we are here.
42:32Even on the rubber,
42:33we can dance.
42:36Yeah.
42:36And they want to stay
42:38put inside
42:39of the Gaza Strip.
42:41How do you get,
42:42Nivin Sanduqa,
42:43you're in Jerusalem
42:44so you get both narratives
42:48but not everyone does.
42:49How do you get people
42:50to hear each other's sides?
42:52It's one of the most
42:53difficult things to do
42:54because unfortunately
42:56media in Israel
42:58doesn't show
42:58what is happening
42:59in Gaza
43:00and most of the
43:01Palestinians don't know
43:02what happened
43:03on October 7th
43:04in details.
43:05Most of us see
43:07different media channels
43:08that only focus
43:09on Gaza.
43:10They don't talk about
43:11the trauma
43:11of both sides.
43:12They don't touch
43:13on that feeling
43:15that for many Israelis
43:17they felt the Holocaust
43:19and for many Palestinians
43:20we're still living
43:21the Nakba.
43:22So 1948.
43:23So it's really
43:25two people
43:25that extremely
43:26are traumatized.
43:28How do you bring
43:29people together?
43:30That's the role
43:31of our 170 members.
43:33They have the tools.
43:34They know the know-how
43:35of how to.
43:37We don't want to,
43:38I don't need,
43:39if you're in Israeli,
43:39I don't need to convince
43:40you about my narrative
43:41and you don't need
43:42to convince me
43:42about your narrative.
43:43We have conflicting narratives
43:45but what we do need
43:46to consider
43:47is a shared future
43:48for both of us.
43:50It's the shared vision.
43:52And we're going to have
43:52to leave it there
43:53unfortunately
43:53because there's so much
43:54more to say.
43:55I wish we had another hour
43:56to talk about it
43:57and you'll be talking about
43:58of course on Friday
43:59at this conference
44:00here in Paris.
44:01I want to thank you
44:02Nivine Sandouk.
44:02I want to thank
44:03Nomi Bar-Yakov,
44:04Ambassador Besant Snow.
44:06I also want to thank
44:07Shirley Sitbon.
44:08Thank you for being
44:09with us here
44:09in the France 24 debate.
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