00:00Let's move 55 kilometers from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv. Let's bring in Itamar Rabinovich, the former ambassador of Israel to the U.S., founder and president of the Israel Institute and professor emeritus of Tel Aviv University.
00:11Itamar, really good to talk to you tonight. Can we begin on the humanitarian situation?
00:16Do you agree with the UN assessment of this dire need of what aid organizations, hospital staff too, say on the ground the extent of the hunger crisis that the Netanyahu governed has previously called fake news?
00:27Yeah. I, of course, don't know. I'm not in Gaza. I have not been to Gaza recently. I cannot judge. I can assume that it is a very difficult humanitarian situation and I strongly support any measure that would put an end to this.
00:48When you look at what I mentioned a moment ago, this eroding of diplomatic support from once steadfast allies, how do you view that?
00:57Well, gravely, sternly. You know, Israel is a country that was created by the UN. It has lasted and persisted through international support through the years of its existence.
01:12And this is something we must not lose. You know, very openly, I'm a critic of the Israeli government and the current government and its policies, and I think that this is one of the gravest errors committed by Mr. Netanyahu's government.
01:29I would like to see that we need to open up to the world, take it into account and think seriously about Israel's international legitimacy and standing.
01:40Does it frustrate you to the extent to which people like you who speak out and politicians in opposition and anybody, Europeans, for example, that we've heard today, President Macron is accused of having a crusade against the Jewish state, the conflation between criticising the state and anti-Semitism?
02:00Yeah, of course, of course, the very time crusade has religious overtones. I'm not sure whether the foreign minister had that in mind when it, because we also use crusade as a, you know, normal, normal term.
02:19So I don't know what what he had in mind, but these governments wants to dig in.
02:27I should emphasize that in public opinion polls, if elections were to be held in Israel today, the government would lose.
02:35The opposition has a clear majority over the coalition. Elections are not scheduled before 2026.
02:43But I think that pretty soon we will start to see the effect of the approaching elections.
02:50So we have a crisis, as we're hearing, a humanitarian crisis, a crisis between allies, certainly a change in tone.
02:59It's not quite the same rhetoric, let's face it, from President Trump, as we're hearing from European allies as well.
03:04And we have a potential constitutional crisis as well, don't we, in Israel with Mr Netanyahu trying to remove the head of Shin Bet, put in place another one.
03:12And he's challenged from the Supreme Court on that.
03:14And also he's got his own court case coming up for alleged corruption for bribery, which he denies.
03:20In the face of this, economists put it quite clearly this week, newspapers saying that something has to give,
03:28that either there's going to be a complete fragmentation, a fracture of its relations with allies,
03:32or if there's a huge turn, we could soon see the end of Benjamin Netanyahu.
03:38Do you agree?
03:39I agree.
03:44My sense is that the Netanyahu era is approaching an end, that we will see a change of government, that we will see a change of policy.
03:55But let's also bear in mind that the current deadlock is also caused by Hamas.
04:01I mean, they can just accept the proposal put by the United States.
04:06There would be at least two months of relief at this point, at the cost of releasing some hostages who are currently held in inhuman conditions underground.
04:17So there are two parties, there are two sides or two parties to this coin.
04:24But of course, no one has too many expectations of an organization like Hamas.
04:29And there is a tendency to look at the parliamentary democracy like Israel and expect more.
04:36But that's it, isn't it?
04:38You've got to the crux of it.
04:39It's different expectations.
04:41An ally to work out, as European leaders would see it, a solution together, even if some of the finer political details or the bigger political details like a two-state solution is not agreed to between the government and European leaders.
04:53They're fragmented on that.
04:54But how you go about that, as you say, Hamas could simply release the hostages tomorrow.
04:58There'd be a very different situation.
04:59They haven't.
05:00Hamas also saying that they want to guarantee that the war comes to a complete end, to which Israel would say, well, hang on, what if there is a re-emergent?
05:07Hamas starts to provide Kalashnikovs to the youth again.
05:10They need to be able to go back in and deal with that.
05:12Those points are all valid.
05:15But it's coming to a point now to which, you know, what would your message be, I would say?
05:21We're hearing from the response from the Israeli government to European allies.
05:26What would your message be as a former diplomat and ambassador in talking to the likes of President Macron?
05:31Yeah.
05:32With all due respect to the European countries and states, the one state and government that has and can have more influence is the U.S. government.
05:44The last time we had a deal between Israel and Hamas and a partial release of hostages was when Mr. Witkoff came to Jerusalem and persuaded Mr. Netanyahu in no uncertain terms that he had to do it.
05:58So there is, you know, the whole world has question marks about President Trump, Israelis as well.
06:06But we know that the key to a real change is held by him.
06:12Have you found personally, Itamar, in speaking and being critical before, you've come under personal attack, personal criticism.
06:19Have you been accused of anti-Semitism?
06:21No, not even called a self-hating Jew, no.
06:28No, the silly is a democratic country.
06:33People express their views, sharp differences of opinion.
06:38But personally, you know, I speak in protest meetings.
06:44I write.
06:45I speak on media.
06:46And I've not been personally attacked or vilified in Israel, no.
06:50A final thought.
06:51You talk about a very key point, which is what matters ultimately to Israel is what its biggest backer says and does.
06:58Words and deeds coming from President Trump.
07:00What would you like to see President Trump do to bring about an end to this conflict?
07:06In a way, he would have to do something he will not do.
07:13That is to say, take a very wise plan put by his predecessor.
07:20But this is not something he would do.
07:22So I think it is to happen in stages to take the current plan on the table, get it done, use the two months of hiatus in order to start working on a long-term solution,
07:39which has to be not with Hamas, but with the Palestinian Authority and with the participation of Arab states and the international community.
07:47When you say he wouldn't do what his predecessor had done, you mean when it comes to talk or threats of withdrawing key military aid or financial support for Israel?
07:59President Biden proposed many months ago that Hamas be replaced by an entity that would also include elements from the Palestinian Authority,
08:10would be helped by Arab Gulf countries and European countries.
08:14The only way for Israel to defeat Hamas is to bring an alternative.
08:19If you don't bring an alternative, Hamas will be there.
08:23That's one of the paradoxes or mistakes of the current policy of our government.
08:29Can I ask just your thoughts on the Gaza Humanitarian Fund, this U.S.-Israeli use of private contractors that began and was suspended on Tuesday after looting chaotic scenes that we saw.
08:41Whether you think that is something that is worth continuing to advance or would you advise that Israel starts to use the UN again?
08:50On the proviso, clearly, that Benjamin Netanyahu believes that allows aid to get into the hands of Hamas.
08:55That is correct. But I think when it comes to humanitarian issues, the humanitarian aspect needs to be supreme.
09:04What worked very well for several months earlier can be restored.
09:09So I would be for going back to the model that functions successfully for several months earlier.
09:17Itamar, very good to hear your thoughts tonight. Good to talk to you.
09:20Itamar Rabinovich, former ambassador of Israel to the U.S. Thank you.
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