John invites Gabriel to share his story of growing up in a splinter group of the Faith Assembly sect—deeply rooted in William Branham’s influence. Gabriel describes a rural, insular upbringing where scientific curiosity collided with authoritarian doctrine. His early exposure to public education began unraveling the contradictions that his church had spiritualized as “divine mysteries.”
What begins as personal reflection quickly becomes a raw, revealing look into cultic thinking, failed prophecy, and spiritual abuse. From surreal teachings about space and the end times to shame-based control over health and modesty, Gabriel unpacks a system where leaders were worshiped, dissent was punished, and reality was redefined to fit doctrine. He speaks honestly about social pressure, marital compromise, and the burden of silence he carried—until now.
Together, John and Gabriel explore how authoritarian faith distorts scripture, erodes mental health, and fractures families. But the episode is also about healing—through critical thinking, honest dialogue, and finding community after escape. This conversation will resonate deeply with those deconstructing, doubting, or simply trying to make sense of the spiritual trauma they’ve endured.
⸻
🎧 Listen to the Podcast
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
📘 Book Mentioned
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the N.A.R.
– Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
– Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
⸻
🙏 Support & Follow the Channel
– Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Website: https://william-branham.org
– Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com
What begins as personal reflection quickly becomes a raw, revealing look into cultic thinking, failed prophecy, and spiritual abuse. From surreal teachings about space and the end times to shame-based control over health and modesty, Gabriel unpacks a system where leaders were worshiped, dissent was punished, and reality was redefined to fit doctrine. He speaks honestly about social pressure, marital compromise, and the burden of silence he carried—until now.
Together, John and Gabriel explore how authoritarian faith distorts scripture, erodes mental health, and fractures families. But the episode is also about healing—through critical thinking, honest dialogue, and finding community after escape. This conversation will resonate deeply with those deconstructing, doubting, or simply trying to make sense of the spiritual trauma they’ve endured.
⸻
🎧 Listen to the Podcast
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
📘 Book Mentioned
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the N.A.R.
– Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
– Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
⸻
🙏 Support & Follow the Channel
– Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Website: https://william-branham.org
– Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00You
00:31Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research
00:35podcast. I'm your host John Collins the author and founder of William Branham
00:40historical research at william-branham.org and with me I have my very
00:44special guest Gabriel Landmark former member of Faith Assembly and The Message.
00:50Gabriel it's good to have you on and to finally connect so that we can hear your
00:54story. We've been chatting a good bit through email and scheduling finally
01:00connected us so I'm glad that we can and I was debating do I say former member of
01:04Faith Assembly or former member of The Message because we have a Faith
01:09Assembly cult that came from ironically was a spinoff of The Message and we have
01:15a Faith Assembly church which was a yet another spinoff of The Message so you're
01:20the one that is not Hobart Freeman and anyway I thought it would be good if you
01:25just take a moment and introduce yourself. Well as you said I'm Gabe
01:30Landmark I'm from actually Minnesota so it's a little different in that regard
01:35so far north of where most of us has all taken place. I do come from the same
01:41church that Charles Paisley had come from and I remember when he left it was
01:49kind of interesting because I didn't know where he went he was just kind of
01:53gone and nothing was really said about that from anybody so that's kind of
01:59where the curiosity started in a way of like the hardcore research but more back
02:06on myself I grew up in The Message I was born into it in that regard mom my
02:12whole family going back to my great-grandpa's when that all started
02:16and we're just kind of a bunch of farmers trying to serve the Lord I guess
02:23and I happen to be more scientific techie and kind of felt more separated
02:30that way and have my own ideas of how things work so that's me. Sounds like me
02:36you're a high-tech redneck and that's how I grew up only your redneck from the
02:41north I guess that has a different implication than from the south but yeah
02:46so we we share some background in the fact that we were both in The Message
02:50but the Faith Assembly sect was a little bit different than what we had learning
02:56from Charles the differences as I go but in the main sect of The Message we
03:02thought Branham could do no wrong and it was my grandfather would hold up his
03:06hands like this and say it was more accurate than today's newspaper and then
03:11he would introduce the recording and the recording would be riddled with
03:15inaccuracies but that's what we listened to and according to Charles this was I
03:21guess Raymond Jackson posed the thought that all of these riddles and
03:26contradictions and mess that was created Branham was trying to weed out the bad
03:31weeds of the group so did you ever as you were growing up did you ever
03:37come across any of those thoughts or any any critical thinking about The
03:43Message itself I went to public school and so I had hung out with all the like
03:51Lutherans Catholics Baptists atheists pagans if you will even I mean one of my
03:57friends in school was Muslim so it's like I had all these conflicting ideas
04:03and then and then you go to church on Sunday and we're the select few people
04:11that are going to be bride of Christ but then they'll say stuff like that one
04:18quote which I've heard it said before the if I tell you there's a purple
04:23elephant with polka dots in the parking lot then believe it because I said so
04:27which is like how do you test that I mean it I guess and maybe that's my
04:33problem is I'm too scientific cuz it's like well how could you can't prove to
04:38me cuz you won't let me go out and look you know and then the other things it
04:44was like NASA was lying to us about how vast space was and just a few other
04:51things where they would read X amount of verses but then stop before it would
04:57like kind of in a way not contradict itself but like fill out the whole
05:04thought of like here's the big picture but that part is bad so let's not read
05:10all the way down and then brother Branham said this well if you look at it
05:15no he didn't but okay some random stuff it was like sometimes I think I just
05:23blanked out and it was just like well I'm here cuz I'm here I clearly
05:28remember sitting in a room and there were you know it was all the family and
05:32we're sitting there and they're talking brother Branham this brother Branham
05:36that you've probably been in family environments where it's like this
05:39everything out of their mouth as brother Branham said this brother Branham said
05:43that and had a cousin I don't know how he got on the subject but he said and I
05:49believe what he said everything that he said he said that it takes a million
05:53light-years to get to the moon and or to Mars and I believe it and I'm sitting
05:58there I've seen the Mars Rover man I know that I know that we have a Mars
06:04Rover there and we sent a rocket to get there but the actual quote was it would
06:09take a an angel a million light-years to get from Earth to Mars and he was
06:15condemning the the Mars initiative he said we'll never get there and I you
06:21know that was back in the 50s and 60s they were saying this nonsense when
06:25today's technology things have changed so significantly that you can't really
06:29try to say that those things are true if you have any sense whatsoever but I've
06:35come to the conclusion that the lack of critical thinking that you're
06:40manipulated to have in the group makes you turn what is common sense to
06:44everybody else in the rest of the world completely upside down yeah it's well
06:50and that's interesting because I you can go look it up and light takes eight
06:55minutes to travel from the Sun so if the Sun goes out you don't realize that for
07:00eight minutes so and the Sun is vastly farther than Mars you know it's just
07:05yeah but they're never and that's the thing they don't care they're never
07:10gonna look they're never gonna really figure it out and and that was always my
07:17thing is I love space I wanted to be an astronaut I was like ready to go do it
07:23except I have asthma so they typically only take people that breathe apparently
07:28you know it but it's like the little things like that so if you can't even
07:34get that right are you getting the big picture stuff right are you really what
07:41you're reading is that really what it means because I could tell you one thing
07:47and ten people can listen to it and they're gonna think completely different
07:51of each other you know but it's don't worry it's the word of God so it's you
07:59know and I make it make it sound bad but it's like people die for it man it's
08:05really sad I know people who have there's different personality types my
08:11personality type is oddly everything that I'm doing right now is outside of
08:16my personality type I'm the guy that if I go to a big party I'm standing in a
08:20corner sipping coffee watching everybody else have fun and I just I'd rather be
08:26kind of alone and reclusive that's my personality there are other people who
08:30just can't stop talking and I have family members that can't stop talking
08:35and it's funny because they realize that they have this personality trait and
08:40they start rambling and they realize that they've said things that just don't
08:44make sense and they expect you to know this and laugh with them as they laugh
08:49about it and what it looks like happen you've got a man William Branham who
08:54gets behind the stage and gets behind a microphone and he's starting to ramble
09:00and he says all of this nonsensical stuff I truly believe he did not believe
09:04half the stuff he said he was just rambling to fill a microphone to fill a
09:09recording and yet what happened was because of the hero worship in the group
09:15everybody started taking every single thing that he said like the Pharisees
09:20and lawyers did back in Jesus time if they can find that he said something
09:25that is the ultimate truth that is the law and they don't realize the concept
09:29of somebody who's just talking BS and that's pretty much what he was doing
09:34about 90% of his sermons and that's what's so interesting so it I was born
09:39in 95 so not a lot of like what Charles has talked about in the church going
09:47down of witness per se so you know and that was growing up learning about
09:52William Branham it was kind of like yeah he started the thing and was our prophets
09:58or building off of that per se so it's like a lot of things that he probably
10:04actually said I have no recollection about because I don't know so then it's
10:09just kind of like well I have to take your word for it because well I heard
10:13them and then the other problem is you got the pastor there now is from the
10:22other pastor that actually was with Branham so now you're playing the
10:27telephone game because Jackson is he died I think 2004 so it's like he said
10:34she said we said game and then it's just it gets twisted because it's like even
10:41me you could tell me something three days later I'm gonna repeat it and
10:45probably get 80% of it correct and now you're talking from 1940s 5060s to 2020
10:54that's a long time and then don't listen to that tape because he said something
11:00kind of weird so we won't you know air that one I've seen that before yeah so
11:07let's talk about that a little bit so what you're essentially describing is
11:11how a splintered group works so you had the main sect of the message from that
11:15splintered the Raymond Jackson Faith Assembly sect and interestingly the
11:20Hobart Freeman Faith Assembly sect both groups from Faith Assembly and from
11:25Hobart Freeman both did not have any direct thought about Branham kind of
11:31like you described they went to instead the new cult leader and now you're
11:36talking about a different splinter group that is it's still the same cult
11:40same sect but it essentially is forming into a new splinter group which will
11:45have a new leader new theology and that level of contradiction there the
11:50opinions of the new guy won't match the opinions of Raymond Jackson Raymond
11:56Jackson clearly did not match the opinions of William Branham so there's
12:01no cohesiveness to all of this let's talk through that a bit have you
12:06explored differences between the new leader of your sect and Raymond Jackson
12:11I think it's more chillaxed as I like to say it's not so because we we would
12:19listen when the internet would go out up here we would we would go back and
12:24listen to old tapes that we would get because we they would email our mail the
12:28tapes up from down there and it was brother Jackson and it was a lot more
12:34aggressive and hurry up because doomsday is like tomorrow man and I remember even
12:42my own uncle said that his little kids won't even get through school so why
12:48does it matter because well we're not gonna be here you know it's like well
12:54okay but you should still have a plan you know and a lot of people went into
12:59debt because of it so now it's the tune has turned to well we're on borrowed
13:05time because people aren't ready you guys aren't good enough aka basically is
13:11what they're getting at to for Jesus to come back to take us away you know it's
13:16like well I don't know it says no one knows the date I think the date is set
13:22somewhere whether you're ready or not it's kind of like hide and seek man if
13:27that's all true and regard to that but it's like the difference I think it's a
13:32lot more relaxed in a way and that'd be my opinion on it because yeah I was so
13:40young too and it makes that hard but just from listening and remembering it
13:45it seemed like a lot a lot more relaxed for a long time which now it's ramped way
13:51back up when last time I watched so it's kind of a crazy crazy town you
13:59mentioned borrowed time it's interesting how leaders try to reconcile the things
14:05that can't be reconciled and we had in the main sec we had the same thing so
14:10William Branham apparently prophesied to his son Billy Paul before you're an old
14:15man this ground that you're standing on right here in the middle of downtown Los
14:19Angeles will be underneath the ocean and sharks will be swimming here and I
14:24remember this tour by Billy Paul my dad actually sponsored one of his meetings
14:29in the tour and he came and he would talk about how we're living on borrowed
14:33time because he's getting on up there in age and this was in late 1980s right and
14:40he lived until just a couple years back is when he finally did pass away so we
14:46lived lived on borrowed time from the 80s whenever he was an old man until the
14:51you know mid 2000 late 2020 early 2020s so then after he dies people try to
15:00reconcile even that and that's a well I think there might have been a fish tank
15:05right there where he was standing and so because they might have had a shark in
15:09that fish tank that prophecy was fulfilled and we're going to just
15:13through cognitive dissonance erase it not thinking about the fact that the
15:18whole city is supposed to be underwater but a fish tank reconciles this so it's
15:23interesting that your sect was reconciling in the same way doomsday
15:28didn't happen we're still here how do you make sense of this well God's giving
15:33us borrowed time yeah cuz cuz that's that's how it works and when it's
15:38interesting because speaking of the different sex and everybody's right and
15:44everybody follows the same guy we were told that you guys worshipped him like
15:50he was God and I'm not really getting that vibe from listening to videos and
15:56whatnot but then I was curious because one day I was on just kind of going
16:00through YouTube and that Branham tabernacle came up like Sunday's past
16:05service or whatever and I looked at it and this is the thumbnail it's like huh
16:09you could just print faith assembly over that because it looks the same so I
16:13clicked on it watch a little bit it's like that's not really any different but
16:17hold my word you guys are devil worshippers well so there were multiple
16:23tiers of false worship of heresy I should say back in the early 60s you had
16:30TL Osborne who's big in the word of faith he helped Kenneth Hagan launch the
16:35thing at William Branham's memorial service he said we just saw God in the
16:40flesh God has came down in human flesh referring to William Branham so that
16:46would have been not just the message cult but that would have been charismatic
16:51movement as it is beginning to form charismania apparently believed this in
16:57the early years nobody condemned him of heresy because apparently everybody
17:01believed this so latter rain had this notion of Joel's army where God was
17:08pouring out his spirit and that spirit was coming down and they would go to
17:13these specific Bible passages that are clearly talking about the return of
17:18Jesus Christ but they would apply it to the movement so then what happened is it
17:24turned from William Branham being God in the flesh to the movement itself being
17:28God in I don't know what you even call that spirit or multiple fleshes God
17:34coming down in multiple fleshes and so there were a lot of people that believe
17:39that the message was the return of Jesus Christ I don't know the the thoughts and
17:45intents of William Branham's mouth and all of his opinions and nonsense like
17:50the we're not gonna make it to Mars and a hundred light years that was God in
17:55the flesh to many people in the message I would say probably that's where I sat
18:00on the subject however my grandfather and his resignation speech he clearly
18:07said that William Branham was God tabernacled in human flesh so that's a
18:12step of heresy further than where I was my grandfather who was the head pastor
18:17at the main sect Branham tabernacle Church believed that the human form of
18:22William Branham was actually God and he openly declared it as he is resigning
18:27from the church he's resigning because there's this big movement coming to
18:33Jeffersonville that they also have additional tiers of heresy some of which
18:39include William Branham's son being God in the flesh and then the Sun takes over
18:45they outgrow the church and then it turns into what you saw on the Internet
18:49well and that right there it's like so do you guys believe the Trinity then
18:55because that's kind of what it sounds like to me because it's interesting so I
19:00am I'm probably the worst out of all the people I and this this is nothing
19:08against her or anything she knows my wife is Lutheran we got married in a
19:14Lutheran Church with a Lutheran pastor doing it the Lutheran way and I thought
19:21it was like well that's what she wants we agreed we weren't gonna try to pull
19:28each other either way she believes this well she will come I mean it's kind of
19:32like well the Lord's will and everything you know and then it's like well and she
19:37thought the same she goes well she finally sees the craziness that he goes
19:43to church in because she's she's come before you know then hopefully he will
19:48break out of it because when we were when we were dating and engaged and
19:53stuff she would she would come down you know and come to come to service or
19:57whatever and dress appropriately or whatever because it's like the other
20:01thing too is she doesn't dress like most people think that a worldly person
20:07dresses like either so it you know it I don't know it's just this weird divide
20:11but then but then saying that and saying that well he's literally God
20:17again well then yeah so then okay so is he Jesus then cuz that's confusing but
20:24you know no one will fact-check that it's just I don't know it could like
20:29they uh hand him a shovel and dig the hole deeper is the problem and then well
20:35that's not actually what I said what I said then it's even worse whenever I was
20:39a kid I actually tried to bring people into the message I was one of the few
20:43who believed it strongly enough to do this and I'll never forget getting into
20:47an argument with what I understand now was a very strong Christian friend of
20:52mine and he was trying I was telling him that I did not believe in the Trinity I
20:58believe differently and he was explaining to me all of the Bible verses
21:02that support the Trinitarian belief and he's going right to the ones that we
21:07have indoctrination the quotes just fly out of your mouth instantly because we've
21:12been indoctrinated to attack those and he's describing the verses and I'll
21:18never forget the moment in that argument where he is arguing with me about the
21:25Trinity and I read the Bible I was also one of the few Christians who read the
21:29Bible so I read it I knew that God sent his son God loved the whole world so he
21:35sent his son and I knew that his son said he sent the Holy Spirit so I
21:40believed essentially what the Trinitarians believed but I had been
21:46falsely taught that Trinitarians believed in three gods not one and so I
21:51remember this long debate we got in and I was trying to convince him to
21:56understand how he believed why he shouldn't believe the Trinity because he
22:02was believing in three gods and he was trying to explain to me no that's not
22:05what the Bible says at all he's literally saying exactly what I believe
22:09but he's using the word Trinity so our argument and this probably gosh is
22:14probably a two-hour argument it was over the Trinity and literally it came down
22:18to his use of the word Trinity yeah and that's the thing it's like when you
22:24start realizing what these people actually believe it's not what they said
22:30but then the next problem is well did you ever actually go look when they said
22:36that no you just took it as they did went I mean I did too for the longest
22:41time because it's well actually how I came to realize that this is more of a
22:48cult than a religion is I started watching this lady on YouTube she's ex
22:54Mormon and she's about the same age as I am and she was kind of going over a lot
22:59of things that what the Mormons did and everything and I started to think it's
23:03like man this is really similar and in a lot of ways there's a lot of ways that
23:09it's not either but it got really got me thinking well that one thing led to the
23:15next and I remember I was like well I wonder what happened to Charles because
23:19all sudden I was he was preaching one Sunday night and then the next Sunday
23:25night I was visiting my wife so I wasn't there and then I come back and
23:30the next Sunday oh yeah Charles Charles ain't preaching anymore he's not even in
23:34the building like well so now I remember asking what happened all he said some
23:38stuff about brother Branham okay well what stuff could not get a straight
23:45answer from anybody and it's like okay well I could write an email to you know
23:50the pastor down there it's like well good luck with that that's a thought
23:54experiment in itself right there so then what was funny is I was doing some
24:01Reese my own research on Branham and all I typed in in Google was because I
24:05remember somebody saying that brother Branham was a pedophile and that's why
24:10they kicked Charles out or did some something so I typed it in Google was
24:16William Branham a pedophile well then after you scroll for a while because
24:19they're all bias claims because I already know all the other side let's
24:23listen to the other side for a little bit and I think I came on your website
24:27and then it was like here follow our YouTube page so I did it and then
24:30there's Charles's face like ha well let's listen to a couple of these oh no
24:36and I remember I called my wife I'm like hey yeah it's kind of weird I think I
24:41found where Charles is she goes oh where is that well I'm like well the other
24:45thing is I think I'm gonna call she goes yeah she goes why do you think that so
24:53I'm like I don't know but let me get back to you because this this requires
24:57some in-depth research because you just can't you know there's and that's the
25:03problem is you can find anything on the internet but then it's like everything
25:08you have access to I can go look for it it's not like you have some secret
25:13wisdom somewhere granted yeah you lived more of the old school way than I did
25:21but it's like I could go look at the records and I did and it's like hmm
25:26well this is kind of confusing now have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal
25:33movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostal ism transition
25:38through the latter rain charismatic and other fringe movements into the new
25:43apostolic Reformation you can learn this and more on William Branham historical
25:48research's website William dash Branham org on the books page of the website you
25:54can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley Stephen
25:58Montgomery John McKinnon and others with links to the paper audio and digital
26:04versions of each book you can also find resources and documentation on various
26:10people and topics related to those movements if you want to contribute to
26:14the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the
26:18top and as always be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version
26:24that you're listening to or watching on behalf of William Branham historical
26:27research we want to thank you for your support you know I've been waiting for
26:32somebody to bring up the William Branham as a pedophile claim because I I choose
26:38to go down the path of historical research where I can document the
26:43history and there are certain topics that you cannot document because they
26:47happen behind closed doors but I have had a conversation with the person who
26:52has made that claim and it's not just in one place this my conversation with this
26:57person essentially was this his father came out of the message because he
27:03according to this person his father had been molested by William Branham and when
27:10I had that conversation with him there was a lot that I did not know about
27:14William Branham or his inner circle and so I just fully discredited there's no
27:21way this is real right yeah and then after that you start coming across so
27:26many things that maybe not directly corroborate his story but does
27:31indirectly and one of the first things that I came across was Lee Vale talking
27:38about how there were men inside William Branham's inner circle who were
27:44homosexual and they were actively engaging in homosexual acts and I found
27:50newspaper articles and most recently I even found a CIA document that kind of
27:55corroborates that story key figures who Branham's sponsors in multiple countries
28:00was caught in these type of situations so you have this inner circle that's
28:06just filthy I'll just say it like that and my family knew this I was not able
28:13to say it until Charles found a document but Roy Borders who was instrumental in
28:19helping set up the voice of God recordings all of this stuff he
28:24apparently had a lot of relations with women as he would go on the overseas
28:29tours and this was a rumor that I couldn't corroborate so I could not
28:34really document this but when Charles found the document by what's his name
28:40Gerald Lee Walker he's he talks about the situation that's happening and he
28:45he doesn't mention the name but he's talking about the Roy Borders situation
28:48so it kind of gives me an outlet where I can say it and still have a document to
28:51go back on I still have no document to go back on for the person who claims
28:58that his father was molested however I can say this he's not the only one that
29:03has told me that there have been several people who've either hinted at
29:09it or give me situations that they're they're really describing something
29:12that's awful happening I can't say whether it did or whether it didn't but
29:16I can say that there are the mouth of two or three witnesses and that's the
29:20thing is that I heard I heard once from people in the program aka black programs
29:28you know saying that and it was a really interesting quote because it really had
29:33to do with the fact that when a person gets home all secrets have an expiration
29:39date doesn't matter what they are they everything will come out it might take
29:43several thousand years but it comes out you know and then it's and that's the
29:48thing it's like how many people have said it are they all lying do they all
29:53know each other or are they just because you know sad to say but some people do
29:58but after a while and especially when you're like in something like this I
30:04don't I don't think you are whether he did it or not is besides the point it's
30:09just kind of the yeah that's what he said I wanted to see what Google said
30:14and from what I found there was some really strange stories but they would
30:18never I guess they really danced around it because it was like well you're still
30:24trying to protect them in that regard which abused people do yeah and you know
30:30that's in my conversation with the person whose father apparently had been
30:35abused the person for them to say that up publicly it actually put them at more
30:41risk than just keeping silent about it so he had nothing to gain and everything
30:46to lose by doing it he was more in my conversation with him he was like more
30:51warning people that this this is messed up what you guys are in this is messed
30:55up and again when he first said it and I came across it when I had the
31:01conversation I discredited the whole thing I thought there's no way this is
31:05possible but I'll say that if I had that conversation again now I would think
31:11about it a lot more than I did back then and and that's what's so weird too
31:16because it's like I know and we would we would go down there to convention and
31:20that's all people wanted to talk about was like church stuff and I'm like let's
31:26go do things dude like this is vacation man like we're a thousand miles south
31:31everybody talks weird everything looks different yeah they always told me I
31:36talk fancy because of the northern accent you know but it's like there was
31:43some stuff you couldn't you couldn't bring up otherwise guess who's getting
31:47preached at next Sunday you know you know it was it's just weird so but it
31:53makes me wonder now thinking thinking back because I have no friends down
31:58there anymore or most of them I'd say 98% of them have left the last time I
32:04went down it was kind of like oh okay well I guess I'm here you know but I
32:09would wonder what they would say about some stuff because they're not attached
32:13anymore you know and it's like were you really skating around for and for how
32:17long because I feel like there's a lot of people ready to leave it's just
32:22pulling the trigger because you've invested so much time into it and I feel
32:28like I feel like that's where I was for a really long time oh it's like well
32:32been in it for 28 years I mean everybody else kind of in the same boat wait it
32:41out and see you do you know run our see how long borrowed time goes well there's
32:48some people that they like to continue borrowing and make it even worse I had
32:53several friends who are in the message who you could clearly tell that they
32:58were struggling to keep what we called keeping the faith but essentially they
33:03weren't keeping the Christian faith they were trying to reconcile all the issues
33:08in their head and the thought the really strange part about it is after I
33:14came out and started being very public and vocal about all of the real
33:18underlying problems it seems like people who were on the fence the indoctrinated
33:26responses to anybody who's in opposition caused them to dig in deeper and some of
33:32the same friends that I was certain after I left and published my
33:36information I was really certain that they would just leave because they
33:39didn't believe it but what happens is they dig in and they get even more
33:42devout as a internal mechanism that tries to make it where it doesn't feel
33:50so wrong to be in it they just dig in deeper and so in doing so it makes it
33:55really hard for some of the people to get out that's the thing is it's like
33:59I'm really thankful that I've always been as open-minded as I was but then
34:05you could go back and be well how come you never noticed well it's because I
34:09never really looked into it it was just we went to this church those people down
34:13the street they went to that church they weren't mean to us we weren't mean to
34:17them no one tried to convert each other and I feel like it helped being up here
34:22kind of isolated in a lot of ways and being out in the general public 90% of
34:30your life because it's like well everybody believes everything at some
34:35point you know and we're just kind of the landmarks that kind of have church
34:41and great-grandpa's living room and that's that but the but yeah the fact
34:47that you could not walk up to somebody that like after a church service and be
34:54like hey here's a stack this deep of why the thing is wrong they would burn it
35:00and then they would say that the devil approached me last night and flesh him
35:05he's trying to root us out you know cuz that was the other thing we could get to
35:10that later that everything is the devil because I got so much that needs to get
35:16out of my my thoughts which planning on doing it here in a way of like it's not
35:24the devil sorry it's just how things work and and you know and that's in the
35:32problem with that is maybe you're serving the wrong side you know do you
35:39ever think about that sheep's you know wolves and sheep clothing that's kind of
35:44a phrase they like to bring up a lot well maybe the very people you're
35:47staring at are the wolves not saying and they are but you gotta at some point you
35:53got to consider everything that actually answers another question I was
35:57gonna ask you but in the main sect we over spiritualized everything everything
36:02was an angel everything was a demon everything was the devil out to get you
36:05if you didn't get a parking spot and you had to go circle to the back of the lot
36:10and had to walk further that's because the devil was getting in your way that's
36:13I mean mentally that's how we were programmed to think so hearing you say
36:18that the devil's out to get me I'm assuming that you guys had that to some
36:21extent as well it was I don't I don't think is extreme in a lot of ways but I
36:28remember testify because so the backstory so I have two kids now both of
36:35them are have a lot of food allergies and that caused their early life and our
36:42early parenting to be hellish literally it was terrible but it took us I know
36:48she'll probably correct me on this but I think it took us till six or seven
36:52months to figure out what our oldest child was allergic to when he was just
36:58after born and it would make him just vomit non-stop like he would fill a
37:05cereal bowl in seconds all the time and then just scream because it's all acid
37:10well I remember I testified in church that maybe I'm doing something wrong in
37:16my life to deserve this punishment where it's like oh actually no we got him
37:23tested his body can't digest the thing we're giving him okay so change the diet
37:32now he's fine you know it was like and then I was thinking about that the other
37:38day because it's like it's so sad here I am telling my congregation that there's
37:43something wrong with my life openly and I'm being punished for it in a severe
37:48way you know like my own child is being tortured hey basically where it's like
37:55now his diet is the problem fix it now he's perfect nothing wrong with him it's
38:02just now he's he runs around a lot so trying to keep the food so way that he
38:07can't have is the next challenge but it's just the mental shaming constantly
38:12and then everything is some sort of spiritual battle which led me to not
38:18talk about a lot of things that happened to me growing up because it's I already
38:24knew what the answer they were gonna say and that's not what it was and that's
38:28one of the hard parts about being in a divine healing cult is because there are
38:32issues that people have to go through in life health-wise that no divine healing
38:40has been able to take away and people not only what you're describing but
38:44people would also try to augment that so I have family members who have high
38:49blood pressure issues for example one family member in particular wasn't
38:53taking any medication would refuse the medication but instead what they did was
38:59alter their diet so they cut out all salt they cut out all fried foods and
39:04essentially ate what tasted like cardboard for years and years they may
39:09have eventually had to go on I can't recall if they did but what they were
39:14doing is they were trying to circumvent using medication by altering their diet
39:20and then claiming that they're healed well if you're having to adjust your
39:24diet you're not healed you're trying to cripple yourself along and then take
39:29that a step further there are other family members that I had who had
39:33diseases that there is no cure and although you know God could heal them
39:39God did not and so they for the rest of their lives some of them are no longer
39:44living sadly they thought that they had done something wrong and they kept
39:48looking to see praying to God what did I do to cause this chronic disease that is
39:54just totally wrecking my life and it's really sad to think that what the cult
40:01did was it robbed people of their happiness this person even though they
40:04had this chronic disease they could have been happy but instead they were just
40:08totally distraught because they thought they had done something to earn the
40:12disease it's a hard struggle and for people that have struggled with it it's
40:18you know what I mean because I grew up having really severe asthma and it took
40:24them a long time doctors anyway to figure out what the problem was because
40:29it mine started from a traumatic event mom and dad think that it was from
40:36being stung by a bunch of ground hornets and that's what research says is either
40:42you're pretty much born with it or you have the gene and the gene needs to be
40:48activated at some level of extreme trauma well being stung in the head by a
40:54bunch of ground hornets they'll get her done you know but then it's like okay I
41:00figured out how to mitigate it I ran track cross-country I race motocross
41:05these are all extremely physical things but exercise and knowing what my
41:14triggers were I guess they kept me going I never got healed I still have it if I
41:21get too excited I'll have an asthma attack but it's like I don't I never
41:26really perceived that as being a bad thing it was just kind of like well this
41:30is what I got to deal with maybe one day I'll get healed but then you're supposed
41:34to outgrow it to which I don't know what age that that but but then speaking of
41:39playing sports that was the other thing had to wear shorts I know about the
41:45short thing what's funny is so my family was real close to the Branham family my
41:51dad played you know as a young child played with Joseph my uncle was Billy
41:56and not many people know this we're in the cult but the Branham family did not
42:01live by the rules that William Branham preached from behind the pulpit and so
42:06up to a certain age I was allowed to wear shorts and it's except for I I
42:12think there was one period of time when my dad got over religious and I was in
42:16the basketball team I had to wear sweatpants but there were plenty of
42:20other times until a certain age I was allowed to wear shorts and I have seen
42:25photographs of the Branham family you know these things exist right so we did
42:31not live by the same rules that everybody else did however all of my
42:35friends live by the same rules and there were multiple tiers of rules for sports
42:41we had some of the church that I went to the women could not play with the men
42:47like volleyball or whatnot because the women are I think the word the deacon
42:53use was bouncy but I'll just I'll leave it at that you can let your mind wonder
43:00what he meant but there were there are multiple sets of rules and some of them
43:05included clothing some of them separation and it was different from
43:10church to church yeah the whole dressing thing you know and then that's all
43:15you're doing is especially on the women's side because I grew up with two
43:19sisters and a brother and I guess looking back on it that's really what it
43:23is you're sexualizing the women because now you got them covered up so bad when
43:28you go to a mall or something like that it's uh you're starting to trigger some
43:35things that are halfway normal and then in society you're so nervous because
43:39it's like oh I'm having all these thoughts and I don't know what to do and
43:42oh my word she's wearing shorts but I remember I guess to me it was like well
43:49you're running and it's hot out I'm not doing you know and that was always the
43:55thing well what's your intent it's like I like to run track cross-country
43:59because I like to run and we're going a long ways and if I could I probably
44:04wouldn't wear anything because airflow man I mean it it gets hot you know and
44:09it's like 90 degree days three miles yeah but then it was like okay well when
44:15the when the round is done we were instructed by our coach put your sweats
44:21on you got to keep keep the heat in otherwise you're gonna get muscle damage
44:25potentially you know so it was like okay well we're done we put our stuff on I'm
44:30not showing off well then I remember too growing up just through the summer
44:35staying staying in shape and whatnot and we had I want to say like 500 acres
44:41we could just kind of go wherever we wanted on woods and feel a lot of it was
44:46tillable but I would I would run around in that area because it's kind of mimic
44:51a lot of cross-country courses and my mom said that one of the neighbors that
44:56we have and you know they're in the message as well that you know she's kind
45:01of worried about you Gabe she saw you wearing running and wearing shorts like
45:06seriously I'm thinking in my mind like oh yes because I want everybody to see
45:12these awesome sweet legs of mine that are so beat up from wiping out on dirt
45:16bikes all the time you know it's like I'm running mom I'm not oh it was just I
45:22could never understand it and but the thing is to all the takeaway of that
45:29even growing up I didn't really like wearing shorts I never really have I
45:35still if it's really hot out all working on but then it's like well we always had
45:40the extra layer to protect your legs you know running through the woods and
45:43whatnot but it's down to the I guess I wore shorts too many times so I'm not
45:48making it to the Bride of Christ I'll just have to pick a lower rank you know
45:53that's it's like really that's it it's like the Mormons well you drank coffee I
45:56guess too bad well like I said you know the Branham family were short there's a
46:05photograph of William Branham wearing shorts I mean the Branham family wore
46:08shorts what's funny is after I left the cult I was explaining all of the many
46:13various rules I was trying to compile you can go to my website and you type in
46:18rules and you can see some of the rules that we had not not even all of the
46:22rules but a good compiled list and I was going through that list and I was
46:26working with I was having lunch with another minister and I was explaining to
46:31them what what we had to go through and he was explaining to me what legalism is
46:36so we're kind of working together a little bit and when we got to the shorts
46:41he just started laughing I what's wrong with you man and he says do you know
46:46what the Bible means whenever it says gird up your loins no I've never thought
46:52about that and you talking about airflow made me think of it again but take your
46:58robes and tie your robes up so that your legs are bare and your legs are showing
47:03and you have airflow so whenever they say gird up your loins that they were
47:07essentially talking about the men were getting ready to run to you know in haste
47:12to some city or whatever and they would open up the air air to the legs and let
47:17the air flow yeah but then it's like who really cares you know it's because I'm
47:26sure right now what I'm wearing probably has some symbol or something that could
47:32be demonic or you know in it all it is this that's a nice sweatshirt I mean
47:38it's land of 10,000 ice rinks it's a hockey thing but somehow voodoo way you
47:46know don't watch the black spirit in the window here yeah it I don't know cuz it
47:52was just like I think about it all the time you know and then people would ask
47:55me like okay how could how could we don't wear shorts you know in school and
47:59stuff and I just I don't really like them so I just I just wear jeans but
48:03then it's like in the back of my head it's like I can't really tell them that
48:05well my church says then they then they start questioning stuff and I don't want
48:10to deal with that well then it's like okay well right there Gabe you realize
48:15you're in a cult because you're like this kind of venture off to the right
48:23here like I'm sitting in the corner too cuz I'd be mine I don't I'd be like you
48:28that way too I'd sit in that corner at big social events I don't typically like
48:32people too much but then you get me going and I can't shut up so that's the
48:36only problem I guess I'm the same way too I I have a lot to say but I usually
48:41keep it to myself I usually like to think about it and like to process it
48:46before it comes out Abe Lincoln said my favorite quote is it's better to be
48:51looked at and thought of as dumb than to speak and remove all doubt and I'm of
48:56that mindset I like to think about what I say so doing this is a little bit
49:01awkward for me but you know back to back to the way that the cult structure
49:07is I think that if more people had have listened to Abe Lincoln in the movement
49:13and all of these ministers weren't trying to create this great showmanship
49:17act and actually just stopped and thought about what they said we'd never
49:21end up in this mess that we have go by what I mean not what I say yeah it was
49:26always that it was like well I know but you said salvation you can get there
49:32three different ways so what which one is it there you know cuz I yeah doubt
49:38that one was interesting but that's probably a spiritual mind game to like
49:44Charles was saying you know the fan is in the hand which makes zero sense to me
49:48it's like well if people are gonna do it they're gonna do it if they don't they
49:51don't well when when you're talking through your butt the whole sermon you
49:55need a fan in your the things that the man said it's just it's unbelievable but
50:03thankfully you got out and I I'm glad that you found the courage to tell your
50:09wife that hey I'm I'm in a cult I can't imagine what must have been going
50:13through your head when that happened what was going through your head so I'd
50:17like to go back to the fact that my mom and dad thankfully raised us to be
50:22open-minded and not just take things willy-nilly like well just because he
50:30said that you need to go check it just because some scientist gets on TV and
50:35says X you should go check it don't just believe it to believe it but then I feel
50:40like we all kind of follow into that somehow and it just ends up that way but
50:44that was my thing was like wow these are some pretty steep claims dude like wow
50:49how dare you come against the Prophet but then it was just kind of like I sat
50:56there for a little bit you know I was at work just kind of like hmm well this is
51:02interesting so actually what I did is I went back to the other side of people
51:06defending him because now once you're exposed to it you're done there's no
51:13going back you know the truth per se so then it's like okay well what do you
51:19what are people saying to defend these points well they weren't making much
51:25sense in my opinion so then it's like okay well you said X this person says Y
51:33but then they end their quote of well they're not righteous so they're not
51:38gonna believe it anyway well it's like okay well right there you just created a
51:43duality sorry you're wrong then so I guess mr. Collins wins this the debate
51:51but then it's like then you go okay well let's go really deep because that's
51:56typically what I do and some of the stuff and it's like oh I weren't I don't
52:00know and then you get involved in the the KKK stuff and then there's pictures
52:04of I'm standing with the people and it's like well I don't know how much more
52:07obvious you want to get you know cuz it's like well sorry I'm not you know
52:14and that's the thing is it's like you're not trying to I guess how I feel you're
52:18not trying to be like waving your fists in the air see the whole time we're all
52:23lied to it was like well here's the fact leave it or take it this is what I think
52:26now and I feel like a lot of people either need to get just don't take it in
52:33the wrong way knocked in the head so they look at it correctly or it's just
52:37well I mean if you're happy where you're at you're happy where you're at and I
52:42don't know it's it's it's a mess you know I don't know that I would use the
52:46term knocked in the head but I get what you mean you almost got there there
52:51needs to be a good slap of sense that somehow gets into people but you know
52:58it's such a difficult thing because on the one hand they're in a prison that
53:04they don't know they're in they're in this mental prison from this cult and
53:08there's there's no way to really get them unless you really shake them and
53:14interestingly everything that I do was never really intended to help people out
53:18of the cult I have partners and different websites and podcasts that do
53:23that mine was more putting up a marker in the water that says there's danger in
53:27this water do not swim that kind of thing and and to fully document the
53:32history that they have tried to erase I've been trying to push that up but so
53:39after everything that you've gone through what advice would you give to
53:43people who are still struggling in this cult and still we people have people who
53:49are listening to the podcast who are actually in the cult what would you say
53:52to them to give them some advice oh yeah I know that there's people listening to
53:56it that are in the cult cuz I argued with one on one of your videos and it
54:00was I mean I don't know what his thoughts are now but it I guess I was
54:05trying not to be too rude but look at the other side it's not as bad as you
54:12think I'm not here to convert anybody I'm not here to tell you which way you
54:17should go which door you should open but I think you should consider all routes
54:21and make your decision there if you're happy where you're at that's perfectly
54:25fine nothing nothing taken just you need to actually really look and figure out
54:32what you actually believe well it's very good advice I thank you so much for
54:35coming on and sharing your story thank you well if you've enjoyed our show and
54:39you want more information you can check us out on the web and if you want to
54:42share your story you can contact us at William dash Branham org for more about
54:47the dark side of the new apostolic Reformation you can read weaponized
54:50religion from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon Kindle and
54:56audible
55:20you
55:50you