CEO of Memento
“Memecoins are the fastest product-market fit in crypto history.”
Today’s guest, Nikita Uriupin, is reshaping how we engage with crypto and Web3. As the CEO of Memento, an AI-powered platform for analyzing memecoins, detecting scams, and providing investment insights, he is at the forefront of the next evolution in digital asset trading.
Why Memecoins Are More Than Just a Joke
Memecoins have exploded in popularity, surpassing a $127 billion market cap in 2024. But unlike previous cycles driven by influencer hype, the game has changed:
Retail traders move faster than ever—and traditional tools aren’t keeping up.
AI-driven analysis is revolutionizing trading, making it smarter and safer.
Engagement mechanics have evolved, with gamified participation replacing VC-driven marketing.
For Nikita, memecoins represent a fundamental shift in crypto adoption, driven by community-led engagement rather than speculation.
“Memecoins are the fastest product-market fit in crypto history.”
Today’s guest, Nikita Uriupin, is reshaping how we engage with crypto and Web3. As the CEO of Memento, an AI-powered platform for analyzing memecoins, detecting scams, and providing investment insights, he is at the forefront of the next evolution in digital asset trading.
Why Memecoins Are More Than Just a Joke
Memecoins have exploded in popularity, surpassing a $127 billion market cap in 2024. But unlike previous cycles driven by influencer hype, the game has changed:
Retail traders move faster than ever—and traditional tools aren’t keeping up.
AI-driven analysis is revolutionizing trading, making it smarter and safer.
Engagement mechanics have evolved, with gamified participation replacing VC-driven marketing.
For Nikita, memecoins represent a fundamental shift in crypto adoption, driven by community-led engagement rather than speculation.
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NewsTranscript
00:00So many markets across the world are monopolized and to be quite frank, the consumer is paying the price for that.
00:06Sphinx is an effort to democratize access to the commodities trading world and the derivatives that power it.
00:14These assets never stop moving and they deserve a market that also never stops moving.
00:20People would say, well, no, these are on exchanges and we can see the price every day on Bloomberg.
00:24But you're saying there's a lot of control in this centralized power.
00:28The powers that control these assets and control the exchanges that trade them, they have no incentive to evolve on behalf of the consumer.
00:36And that's really where we saw not only the problems, but also the opportunity.
00:40The time for disruption is now, and we're really excited to be at the forefront of that.
00:44What do you think this looks like a year from now if you get it right?
00:47You know, we decided to build our own layer one blockchain.
00:50I want to see the next NASDAQ built on this infrastructure.
00:52I want to see the next NYSE for trading securities.
00:55If we can become the ecosystem and the infrastructure for traditional finance, that's the dream, that's the goal.
01:01And if we really want to go compete with the big boys, there's no choice.
01:04The quote from one of my mentors, talk is cheap, but it takes money to buy whiskey in West Texas.
01:11You better have something to back up what you're going to do.
01:14We're not another DeFi exchange.
01:16We are truly creating something new.
01:19There's so many great people surrounding this thing.
01:21And I can't thank my team enough because when we do launch, everybody's going to be blown the hell away.
01:25It looks incredible. It works great.
01:27It's going to be really crazy and it's going to change the world.
01:40Hey, I know investing in crypto is scary.
01:43It takes a real leap of faith because there are so many scams, rug pulls and bad actors out there.
01:49It's a dangerous business, which is why 95% of people lose all their money.
01:54Well, that's why I created the London Real Investment Club.
01:57So you can access the hottest deals on the planet and use the crypto bull market to create the generational wealth that you deserve.
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02:35The world is changing.
02:39Inspiration is everywhere.
02:45It has never been so easy to connect, share and bring people together.
02:51We're learning from others and finding the best in ourselves.
02:57Challenging our beliefs.
03:01Sharing our vulnerability.
03:05Overcoming our fears.
03:10Transforming ourselves so we can transform the world.
03:17How far can we go?
03:20This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My guest today is...
03:26Greg Perrin, the engineer, technologist and blockchain expert.
03:30You are the co-founder and CEO of Sphinx, a next-generation trading platform built on the blockchain
03:36that provides 24-7 access to global energy and commodity markets.
03:41Sphinx is making trading faster, easier and more accessible.
03:45Eliminating the need to buy, sell and trade.
03:48Sphinx is the world's largest cryptocurrency trading platform.
03:52Sphinx is making trading faster, easier and more accessible.
03:55Eliminating delays and high costs to create a seamless, secure experience anytime, anywhere.
04:02You believe that decentralized technologies have the power to reshape global markets
04:06and have said that bringing traditional assets on-chain is the next trillion-dollar opportunity.
04:12You've said that if we want to see mass adoption,
04:14blockchain should be like the plumbing in your home, essential but unseen.
04:19Ultimately, you believe that 2025 will be the year decentralization stops being a buzzword
04:25and starts eating the world.
04:27Greg, welcome to London Real in Dubai.
04:30And Brian, thank you so much for having me.
04:32So grateful to be here and I've been looking forward to this.
04:35Yeah, it's going to be great.
04:36I want to start by saying that Sphinx is one of our portfolio companies here at London Real Ventures,
04:40the world's first media-powered investment firm,
04:42where our mission is to transform the world by investing in cutting-edge Web3 and AI companies
04:47while giving our partners marketing exposure across the London Real media platforms and academies.
04:52We heighten awareness, create customers and build communities
04:55by leveraging our global audience and extensive network.
04:57Greg, super excited to be part of this journey with you.
05:00So let's jump in.
05:01What is Sphinx?
05:04So Sphinx is an effort to democratize access to the commodities trading world
05:10and the derivatives that power it.
05:12You know, commodities in particular are an asset class that are produced and consumed 24-7, right?
05:19These markets do not stop.
05:20They do not stutter.
05:22All the way from the production at the oil pump to the consumption at the gas pump,
05:27these assets, you know, they never stop moving.
05:31And they deserve a market that also never stops moving.
05:36At the end of the day, the traditional exchanges that have ultimately led us to this point in history
05:44are built on traditional banking rails.
05:46And the reality is those banking rails are evolving with the evolution and, you know,
05:54technology that blockchain is kind of bringing to the forefront now.
05:58So, you know, we're witnessing such a shift in the way that banking is done.
06:06And blockchain has been such a, you know, it's provided so many opportunities to so many people across the world, right?
06:12It's really banking the unbanked.
06:13It's providing, you know, lending opportunities and opportunities for entrepreneurs across the world, right?
06:19And, you know, we in the Western world, especially as an American, right, like we take that for granted.
06:24We really do.
06:25And, you know, the ability for folks across the geo, you know, not only the geographical spectrum,
06:34but the geopolitical spectrum to be able to access those kinds of banking rails has ultimately created a paradigm shift.
06:41And markets are now attaching to that shift, right?
06:46Securities, treasuries, bonds, you know, even traditional crypto assets, meme coins,
06:53and commodities are simply another asset class that we believe is poised to, you know, be revolutionized and disrupted by these new banking rails.
07:05You know, the reality is so, you know, so many markets across the world are monopolized.
07:12You know, commodities are one of those markets.
07:14And to be quite frank, the consumer is paying the price for that.
07:18It's interesting you say monopolized because people would say, well, no, these are on exchanges and they're publicly traded, whatever that means.
07:25And we can see the price every day on Bloomberg or we can, you know, read it in the paper old school way.
07:30But you're saying there's a lot of control in this centralized power.
07:34Yes.
07:35And a lot of that control is paid for, right?
07:38It's lobbied for.
07:39And, you know, as markets evolve and mature, some of that control is warranted.
07:45But we have gotten to the point in the evolution of these markets in particular where that is now harming the consumer and the powers that be, the powers that control these assets and control the exchanges that trade them have no, you know, they have no incentive to effectively evolve.
08:06Right.
08:07So the time for disruption is now.
08:09And we're really excited to be at the forefront of that.
08:12Nice.
08:13So it's interesting.
08:14If we look at crypto markets, it's something that I would argue maybe pretty much everyone in the world has access to all sorts of different exchanges and ways to trade their crypto, whether on a centralized exchange or a decentralized exchange.
08:25If I look at stocks, whereas 20 years ago, this might not have been the same.
08:29But now we see things like Robinhood and we see these low cost brokerage houses.
08:33And, OK, you might not get the high frequency trading access, but you also, I think, have some access.
08:39But when it comes to commodities futures, we are talking even further down that spectrum of the public or individuals getting access to true liquid markets.
08:49Is that a rough idea?
08:51Yes.
08:52And you absolutely hit the nail on the head.
08:54And when you actually step back and view the forest above the trees, it's insane.
08:59It's insanity because energy, agriculture, like these are the most traded markets in the world.
09:04They power your everyday life, whether you realize it or not.
09:07And they're so critically important to, I guess, the world evolution of health and happiness and ultimately bringing life and prosperity to the globe, which I view as holistically important.
09:24And I hope everybody who's watching does.
09:26But at the end of the day, we need to ensure that these assets can be accessed in a democratic way and in a way that is free and doesn't impede on progress.
09:42Right. And so much of the current system does impede on progress.
09:46Right. There isn't as much of a free flow from an economics perspective as there should be.
09:51And that's a real problem, right, especially for such critical things like energy.
09:56Right. It's crazy when you really step back and think about the fact that, you know, there is a noose around, you know, the control and the flow and the trade of these assets.
10:07Right. Because it's the big institutions that get access to these liquid markets and the individuals and the smaller players that don't.
10:14And it's not traded 24-7.
10:16Yeah, exactly. Right.
10:18You know, this idea of, you know, being able to speculate, being able to hedge, simply being able to trade across borders and boundaries, you know, it's become more and more important in physical markets.
10:34Right. Cargo markets, trade markets, like anything that kind of transcends that import export barrier.
10:41Why are we so far behind on the basics?
10:44You know, it's actually, you know, it's disturbing and it's really, you know, the mission and the reason of why Sphinx exists.
10:50It's a great question. And it's one of the reasons we were excited to be a part of your journey and as investors and everything we're doing for you, because we didn't see many of these come on our table.
10:59You know, in blockchain, everyone's doing all sorts of different things.
11:02But I told the team, I remember Greg, a couple of weeks ago, I said, look, I said, we're not going to see another energy derivatives blockchain based exchange in this bull market.
11:11So let's do this, because this is something we don't have in our portfolio.
11:15And it's something that needs to be done by a bunch of guys who know what they're doing.
11:19And it's really refreshing to see it.
11:21And again, I don't see a lot of people coming from it.
11:23I want to get into your background later, because that will explain to everybody why you chose this problem.
11:28It's kind of scratching your own itch.
11:30But you mentioned putting things on the blockchain and I thought of BlackRock.
11:33BlackRock and Franklin Templeton have their own systems and they're putting treasuries on the blockchain and they're trying to really get some of these banking assets on the blockchain.
11:41When you are trying to build a blockchain based, you know, derivatives and commodities exchange, do you consider that an RWA play or a real world asset play or is it not necessarily?
11:52So blockchain and the finance world in general have this funny habit of trying to confuse the consumer by calling a nascent or new asset class something that already exists or something that it's not right.
12:08Like RWAs, right, real world assets.
12:11Like, I guess, you know, first and foremost, you consider a treasury a real world asset or is that something that's been artificially invented by a government to fund their growth?
12:20Right. So already you kind of have this confusion between like, OK, like what is real in the real world?
12:26But, you know, we we take at least internally when we started to consider, you know, bringing these RWAs on chain or that's what the industry is calling them now.
12:36And I'll put this in air quotes for the moment. But when we started to consider putting RWAs on chain, you know, we kind of developed a thesis around tokenization.
12:45When it comes to the existence of them in terms of their lifetime.
12:51Right. Like assets that are ephemeral or, you know, have effectively a short shelf life, especially for buoyant and liquid markets.
13:00These are very, very difficult to tokenize at scale. Right.
13:02When I start to consider a barrel of oil or a bushel of wheat to effectively tokenize, you know, one million or 10 million or even 50 million dollars, like I can do that.
13:13Right. That's not necessarily what I would consider difficult.
13:16You find the right players, you know, you find the right ways to verify.
13:21And then all of a sudden you can cryptographically secure these assets on chain.
13:27But the problem, you know, really is that these markets are so, so big compared to the crypto markets.
13:33Right. Crypto right now in terms of its, you know, real market cap is about three trillion on the notional is much higher when you start to consider all the derivatives.
13:42But, you know, the notional value of energy, it's one hundred and thirty trillion dollar market.
13:46Like you start to think about tokenizing that and you go start talking to the shells, the Conoco's, the BP's of the world.
13:51And all of a sudden you realize that, hey, even if we could tokenize this, what is the point if that barrel of oil is going to be pumped out of the ground and then consumed in a short period of time?
14:03And the same goes for agriculturals. What's really fit for tokenization are long, you know, kind of like long tail assets.
14:11Right. The treasuries, the bonds, the real estate, things that have this longer shelf life.
14:15They're so ripe for tokenization. And that's really what the industry has focused on up until this point.
14:20Right. The black rocks of the world are tokenizing money, market funds, treasuries, bonds, all the things that you previously mentioned.
14:25But, you know, the short tail assets and the short tail commodities like they have effectively been ignored because no one has thought through the mechanics of what tokenization looks like.
14:36And even when we were starting Sphinx, we did go talk to Shell. We went and talked to BP. We went and talked to all these major players.
14:43And we really came to the thesis that you can bring something on chain without tokenizing it.
14:49You can bring a, you know, very transparent, clear trade execution, clearing and settlement mechanism when it comes to the trade lifecycle of some of these assets without having to necessarily tokenize them.
15:04And we think that so many projects, especially that are dealing with commodities, have taken a misstep in this because, again, you know, investors have been short sighted in this as well in the sense that, you know, again, to create a small market with these tokenized assets that are short tail, it's not necessarily a trivial problem.
15:26But when you start to consider the actual size that you would need to power a global marketplace for something like, you know, spotter derivatives, it's, you know, it's we believe it's a zero sum game.
15:38OK, I like that because sometimes in this space you get people that are tokenizing just for the sake of tokenizing and put it on the block chain.
15:45Investors love it.
15:46Just because they put it on the block chain and there's no point in it, right?
15:48They're just writing maybe the latest buzzword.
15:50Yes.
15:51But it actually doesn't make practical sense.
15:53No, it doesn't.
15:54And, you know, the finance industry that we are trying to disrupt, like, you know, there's a lot of things that, you know, that they've gotten wrong in the evolution of their business.
16:03But one thing that they did get right is, you know, creating digital representations of physical assets like that's, you know, it's something that, again, people are attaching to because it is the flavor of the week.
16:17OK, and they've done that really well because you have a futures contract with a ticker symbol and commodities markets have done that effectively.
16:24Bankings have done has done that effectively in the past.
16:26Yes.
16:27And, you know, like our goal is to be able, you know, there's a couple of things you need to be able to build a new market within an exchange itself.
16:34Right. And I talk about the market as in, like, let's say I want to create a market for lithium or another energy adjacent asset, for instance, that might power an EV battery.
16:43Or, you know, again, be used in what you would consider broadband energy production one, two, three, five, 10 years into the future.
16:53The reality is you need, of course, a stable method for discovering price and then you need liquidity.
17:02And like if you can get the recipe for those two things correct, you can create any market in the world that, you know, effectively is physical and you want to transcend across that digital boundary.
17:14OK, now, can you tokenize a perpetual future, something that is going to be alive forever?
17:19And does that make sense?
17:22You can, but you have to ask yourself, why would you write?
17:25Because the futures contracts like when I'm when I purchase a futures contract on the CME, for instance, right, like the majority of the volume is done monthly.
17:34Right. Like you have to ask yourself, why would I tokenize something that's only going to exist for a month and then it's going to roll over to the next month?
17:39Right. And then, you know, the micro futures that exist weekly or even the, you know, three month futures.
17:45If you have an asset that's going to exist three months, you have to ask yourself, is it worth tokenizing and can I create enough or can I get enough legitimate players to the table that would verify that asset as legitimate?
17:59Right. And that's where you have to stop and ask yourself, wait a minute, what are we trying to do here?
18:03Like we're trying to create a tradable market, like the verification of, you know, these assets is rooted in people's belief in it, which comes from the liquidity.
18:13And then it's rooted in the price, which also, you know, that that's effectively determined by the community.
18:17That's determined by the market. It's not determined by Shell or by Exxon.
18:22And that's that's really, you know, when we step back and realize that that's where that was kind of an aha moment for us.
18:28We were like, wait a second. Again, you kind of got to, you know, especially the investment community is going to try to pigeonhole you into doing something.
18:37Your community that you're listening to for product feedback is going to try to pigeonhole you into doing something.
18:42But this is the correct way forward. We're 100 percent sure of it.
18:47OK. And so I know you're talking to all sorts of partners right now and talking to maybe some regulators.
18:51What do you think this looks like a year from now if you get it right?
18:55So we're very pleased that not just in the United States, but across the world, we're experiencing a shift towards regulatory clarity when it comes to things like stable coins and exchanges.
19:10You know, one year from now, we would very much hope that, you know, we are and become an institution that is recognized and that mid and especially larger entities that span the trading spectrum.
19:29And this includes, you know, quant firms, prop shops, big banks like that.
19:35You know, that class of investor. Trust us. Right. And, you know, anybody can can go create a market.
19:43But again, you know, ultimately crypto right now is, you know, playing with monopoly money when we need to be going to Caesar's Palace and playing with the big boys. Right.
19:51And that's really what I hope to see as the evolution, not only in the next year, but the next five.
19:57And, you know, regulation, it takes time. Getting governments on board takes time. You know, we've really been so.
20:04How do you get out of a rat race? How do you create wealth not only for yourself, but also for the generations to come after?
20:10I am absolutely amazed with the quality of companies that we're getting exposure to.
20:15We go on to Zoom calls with the innovators and the folks who are building new applications in metaverse, blockchain, artificial intelligence, decentralized finance.
20:25What's going on, everybody? Thumbs up if you can see me.
20:28We are focusing on early stage investment.
20:32And the quality of people that we're getting exposure to, whether it be Dan Tapiero with OneRT, Jason Ma from Open, Ayatsu from Animoca.
20:40It's been a phenomenal experience thus far. It has far exceeded my expectations.
20:45We are focusing on cutting edge technologies.
20:49I view it now as the best investment I have ever made. The upside, I view, is unlimited.
20:55And as a retail investor, I would never get this exposure anywhere else outside of Investment Cloud.
21:01See you in the Investment Cloud.
21:04We've been so pleased with what we've been seeing. And, you know, the FCA in particular, right, which is the Financial Conduct Authority out of London.
21:11We brought this product to them about 15 months ago, at the beginning of last year, and they laughed us out of the room.
21:20They were like, no fucking way. We're not touching this.
21:26Blockchain. They didn't like blockchain or crypto.
21:28Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And again, it's like, not even that they didn't like it, but I don't think they understood it.
21:34And some of that, you know, the community drives the regulators' attention, right?
21:41Like, all of a sudden, you had this shift where, again, the black rocks of the world were bringing in RWAs on chain, which forced them to take a closer look.
21:49But then, you know, the FCA, even with no influence from us or from any of our partners, came back to us and said, hey, we think we can regulate this.
21:59We want you to come be part of the Innovation Pathways program, which is effectively a digital sandbox, as well as a direct access point to regulators to help push products like ours through the keyhole of regulation to influence mass adoption, right?
22:13And there are so many organizations in the world that use that as a, you know, kind of use that as a flag in the sand to even justify access, right?
22:26I can't go to the Goldman Sachs of the world without that. So, you know, we were, you know, we want to continue to be on the forefront of those conversations.
22:35We want to help shape policy. And at the end of the day, you know, everybody in crypto is scared, you know, at least what I would consider, you know, the consumer community, right?
22:46Like they're frightened of regulators and rightfully so, right? With, you know, especially with the previous administration, all the Wells notices that were handed down and, you know, all of the issues with Coinbase and Uniswap and all of, you know, these ultimately wonderful companies that are pushing the envelope to be regulated the way they have and relegated the way they have.
23:03The community was, you know, fearful, but, you know, it is a matter of education. Again, we're seeing this like very historic deregulation, not just in the U.S., but across, I think, global markets right now.
23:19And again, you know, our focus is on ensuring that we can bring this industry into, you know, the next century in a way that's not only responsible for the institutions, but responsible for the consumers too, right?
23:34Because consumer protections are important, right? We've seen so many instances across, you know, across history from, you know, the advent of Dodd-Frank to the collapse of companies like Enron that really, really harmed consumers.
23:48So it's not like the regulators are wrong in their fear and in their approach, but, you know, they do take massaging to understand what we are ultimately bringing as benefit.
24:04And that's something that, you know, again, we're so focused on as an organization, right? And I do think it's something that sets us apart.
24:13Okay. So the FCA is coming around and asking you questions and inviting you to be part of their digital sandbox, which is super cool.
24:20In the U.S., you mentioned since the new administration, we've seen lawsuits dropped against Coinbase, against Gemini.
24:27Uniswap just got dropped.
24:28Okay, nice. Uniswap, Robinhood, and a few others, I think, which is really encouraging.
24:33How are you finding the regulation in the U.S. at this point? I know it's still early, but what do you think it might go?
24:42You know, when I started my journey in crypto, which was, you know, back in 2015, where it, again, was this very pirate-like industry.
24:54And then it became almost taboo, right, to work in it, especially as a U.S. person, right?
25:00If you were getting debanked and stuff.
25:02Yeah, and if I go tell, you know, my traditional finance friends that I work in crypto, they're like, you know, like, I don't want to necessarily associate with you two.
25:09Then all of a sudden, it evolving to, you know, this place where it's becoming more widely accepted.
25:15I couldn't be more excited about that, right?
25:18Like, as a U.S. person, like, I, you know, I love doing global business.
25:22I love global people.
25:23I'm very much a globalist.
25:25But at the end of the day, I want to be able to bring that technology home.
25:29I want to be able to go home and, you know, hang out with my family, my parents, my friends.
25:34And to even have the opportunity to be able to do business in the U.S. is so exciting to me.
25:39And I do think that, you know, the SEC and the CFTC are starting to, you know, come around.
25:45And some of that is due to the new, you know, political administration in the executive branch.
25:51But, you know, some of that is also just the force of the consumer.
25:56You know, the consumer is so important.
25:58And, you know, thank God that we live, you know, in a society where that voice is heard and understood and, you know, really helps shape a lot of policy.
26:08I mean, I think all—I think it was all of the pro-crypto candidates got elected.
26:12Yes.
26:13At least that's what, you know, Stanford Crypto and these other lobbying groups said.
26:16And I think that Stanford Crypto and some of those other groups really showed how powerful they are.
26:20And I think people are scared of them in D.C., and I like that.
26:23Stand with Crypto, it's a beautiful organization, and their tactics were excellent, right?
26:28So Stand with Crypto was—excuse me—they were sponsoring watch parties for all of the debates.
26:35And what they would do is they would give out—if you agreed to host a watch party, they would give you a $50 gift card for pizza, for California Pizza Kitchen or Domino's or whatever.
26:44So all of the people across the U.S. were having these, like, huge watch parties to, you know, especially the pro-crypto folks who knew what Stand with Crypto was, which was, you know, I'm sure Coinbase was probably one of the main funders.
26:55But, man, they got very creative with how they attracted the public's attention, and they did such a great job with it.
27:04Again, I hosted the watch parties, right?
27:06I didn't even care about the pizza.
27:08I was just like, hey, guys, let's all come, like, actually learn about this and listen to it.
27:11And, you know, I don't even—you know, I live in Denver, right?
27:15But I don't live in New York or Chicago or one of these main financial hubs.
27:20And, you know, I do go there quite often.
27:22But, you know, even being able to educate, you know, my friends, my neighbors, the folks that are, I guess, in my very close orbit on a day-to-day basis was—you know, it was very encouraging.
27:33I had the woman that orange-pilled Donald Trump here in that chair about two weeks ago.
27:38Her name is Tracy Hoyos-Lopez, and she was one of the people, along with the guy that runs the Bitcoin Conference, that got him to Nashville and got Trump the check for $25 million, which was the biggest industry check he received.
27:51At least she's pretty sure about that.
27:53And she was just talking about the process, and then they ran the crypto ball in D.C.
27:58And, again, really told people that, hey, this is important, and if you don't vote for crypto, then we know that, and we're going to lobby against you.
28:07And, you know, she was pretty resolute when it came to the results they had.
28:12And she said it was amazing to see who showed up to that crypto ball, because there's a lot of parties happening, and a lot of congressmen and senators came there.
28:20And she's like, yep, time for you to kiss the ring, is what she said.
28:24And I was like, okay, I understand how you feel, because if you're in the U.S. the last few years—I mean, like you said, you've been doing this for almost 10 years.
28:31It's frustrating that something you're so passionate about that you see as an instrument of freedom, which the U.S. is the one country in the world that should idolize being demonized, and also the SEC prosecuting and persecuting people.
28:44It must be a nice feeling to see that it's kind of finally being acknowledged.
28:49Yeah, it's such a breath of fresh air.
28:52And, you know, we have now family and friends in my orbit, my partner's orbit, that also own a big chunk of Sphinx.
29:05And, again, this is like real people's livelihoods you're playing with, right?
29:08And it's real people's freedoms.
29:10And it can't be overstated that the U.S. needs to become a leader to bring that innovation back there, right?
29:20So much of the innovation in this industry has gone overseas and gone abroad.
29:23So much of the talent has gone overseas and gone abroad.
29:25And, again, as a globalist, I think that's partially a good thing, but the U.S., it's fallen behind in so many ways.
29:33And this is just another check in that column that's going to lead to undesirable outcomes 5, 10, 15 years into the future.
29:43Yeah, it's like the single biggest evolution of technology in human history or in the last 200 years that the U.S. didn't dominate.
29:50Yes.
29:51You know, it's pretty much true.
29:53And it's such a missed opportunity.
29:55You might argue it's one of the greatest inventions of all time.
29:57You could say it's more important than the wheel and the fire.
30:00It's how humans provide value to each other.
30:03And yet the U.S. missed it or is in the process of missing it.
30:06So it's great to see it coming around.
30:08I want to get back to what Sphinx looks like in one year.
30:10If I had to drill down and see what are you guys actually doing, what would I see?
30:15Would I see billions of contracts being traded on certain energy derivatives, on certain futures contracts?
30:22What would it actually look like from, say, a consumer perspective or an energy producer's perspective?
30:28What do you think it looks like?
30:30So, you know, I do want to take a second and talk about energy as a whole, right?
30:35Like, you know, so much of our team and so much of my origins come from the energy industry, right?
30:41So we chose strategically that as an asset class, not only because of our connections and our deep understanding,
30:48but also because, you know, energy producers are, you know, they're some of the first pioneers and some of the first cowboys, right?
30:56When you look at how the oil industry evolved in the U.S., right?
30:58Like, you know, the folks that were out, you know, drilling, they have an attitude about them that leads and I don't want to say incentivizes,
31:13but, you know, innovation is in their blood, right?
31:18You know, I would not argue the same for farmers, right?
31:22Farmers, like, it's a little bit of a slower industry.
31:24It's, in our opinion, it would have been much harder to penetrate.
31:28So we decided to focus on energy in a big way.
31:31And, you know, the reality is the world's transitioning away from oil and natural gas, right?
31:37As the clean energy revolution continues to gain steam and that, you know, not only includes the markets,
31:47but, you know, the infrastructure, you know, everything from, you know, EV batteries to hydrogen cars to the solar and wind industries.
31:55You know, our goal is to, as an exchange, ensure that these assets are tradable and are tradable in a way that, you know, they really weren't before, right?
32:09Again, you know, the entire market system has been built on this, you know, kind of this five day a week, nine to five outlook.
32:19And the reality is the energy doesn't move like that physically, right?
32:23So our goal is to look at the physical side of energy and really fuse the derivatives market and the physical markets into a single global marketplace.
32:33And if I had to look a year out, right, you know, like we are focused on oil and natural gas first because they are the dominant, you know, the dominant assets in terms of volume and in terms of adoption.
32:43But, you know, solar, wind and then energy adjacent rare earth minerals, again, you know, lithium, cobalt, all these things that go into producing EV batteries, hydrogen.
32:55We want to be able to create stable, buoyant liquid markets for these and allow folks to access them across the globe in a 24-7 environment.
33:04It's so critical for our evolution and the evolution of these markets.
33:09And, you know, once we have stability when it comes to energy trading, that's when we will move to agriculture.
33:21That's when we will move to precious metals.
33:22That's when we will move to other commodities.
33:24But, you know, as a startup, you have to stay focused, right?
33:28We can't conquer every mountain at once.
33:33And, you know, we've really decided to focus on energy as an asset class.
33:37So I was just having flashbacks to the movie There Will Be Blood, you know, which is about a guy drilling for oil.
33:44And I had also thoughts to the recent series Landman, which is West Texas and all the craziness that goes on there.
33:50I guess you got some cowboys there, but I'm assuming in that industry, if you don't innovate, you die.
33:55Yes.
33:56And it's all about tech.
33:57It is.
33:58And, you know, like the oil industry, it's a boom and bust industry on the physical side, right?
34:03You know, during my time in the oil fields, you know, we were actually using stranded natural gas to mine Bitcoin.
34:13That's how I actually got into understanding the energy industry at all.
34:17And you really start to see, you know, through that lens or that magnifying glass that, you know, the ability to compete, and it is a very competitive industry, is built on new technological advances, right?
34:35So, you know, these guys are very keen when it comes to the adoption of products like ours.
34:44And at the end of the day, we think that, you know, we think this is such a critical piece that's going to just propel the industry forward in such a huge way, right?
34:56I mean, I'm not talking about a 1x or a 2x gain.
34:58I'm talking about 100x efficiency gain, right?
35:00100x decrease in trading cost and 100x, you know, more efficiency when it comes to how these things are, you know, being traded between people.
35:11And that's, you know, I believe as a, you know, as a startup founder, I've been an entrepreneur for almost my entire career, right?
35:17I didn't, you know, take necessarily a traditional career path out of school.
35:22And it is that efficiency gain, right?
35:29Like, you know, the ability to be able to disrupt at that 100x level is so critical to, you know, a startup's success or, you know, potentially failure.
35:38Yeah, 100x is huge.
35:39And I guess the blockchain has a big part to play in that.
35:43They always said in tech, you need something 10x better to replace, you know, the incumbent.
35:48It's probably about right.
35:49You know, in addition to the trading, you've got all sorts of other things that you're building and then the blockchain can help you do better, including order book matching, transaction execution, clearing settlement, trade knitting, cross asset margining, client onboarding.
36:04And again, I remember when I was trading on Wall Street, you know, I would call down to the Merc and place all my orders.
36:09And at the end of the day, I had to check all those trades.
36:12I had to go to my back office and they had to clear it.
36:15And these guys were making like, you know, $4 a contract and just the clearing.
36:19There's all this stuff that happens behind the scenes that the consumer doesn't really know about that is super important.
36:24And there's a ton of, you know, rent being charged on those things.
36:28And so I think one of the things that Sphinx is going to do is drop all those costs significantly and speed up those processes and even make them better.
36:37Right. Yeah.
36:38You know, we want to disintermediate and provide as much transparency and direct access to these markets as possible.
36:48When you go trade on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange or the Intercontinental Exchange or, you know, even as you go out into the east, you know, the Guangzhou Commodities Exchange, Shanghai Futures Exchange, they're all set up the same way and they all suffer from the same inefficiencies.
37:04Right. So being able to disintermediate, to be able to remove, you know, this layer of inefficiency.
37:12And a lot of that is provided by Advance and Blockchain.
37:14That's really going to provide benefit that's ultimately passed on to the consumer.
37:20Right. The reality is, you know, even for oil right now on the CME, if you're a non-member on the CME and you have to be a member to trade directly, you know, the cost is $1.50 a contract.
37:33And they're trading six million of these contracts per day.
37:35And that's just for one grade of oil.
37:38So, you know, like they're running one of the most efficient rackets in the world, best we can tell.
37:44And there's no competition.
37:45They have no incentive to, you know, to evolve on behalf of the consumer.
37:51And that's really where we saw not only the problems, but also the opportunity.
37:58It's very, you know, at the time that we were trading these things, we were so disheartened by not only the ability to access and, you know, so much of our team came from trading crypto.
38:09And then we started to look at this and we're like, you know, and as we started to do customer discovery with traditional energy traders and hire, you know, folks from that industry into our team, we were like, man, this is we were dumbfounded.
38:24Right. We were flabbergasted by the realities of trading these things.
38:29Right. And there's so much that goes goes into it.
38:32And it can be simplified so, so much.
38:34And that's again, that's ultimately benefit that we as as, you know, a company that wants to operate responsibly.
38:42We want to pass that benefit on to the consumer.
38:44Right. Like that saving should be with the consumer so they can redeploy capital more efficiently.
38:48And so ultimately, you know, the markets can become more liquid, more fluid.
38:53So, so much capital is locked up right now where it shouldn't be.
38:59And that's something that, you know, we really aim to change.
39:02This narrative you hear constantly in blockchain is decentralization versus centralization.
39:07And we complain about the banks who kind of have captive customers.
39:11We complain about big tech who have these captive customers.
39:15And, you know, it's interesting because blockchain can I never thought about it going after the centralized exchanges.
39:23You know, we think about these other places for information, but that's ultimately what that is.
39:27And then you go back to that innovators dilemma.
39:29I mean, why would they innovate when their entire business model is based on that?
39:33You know, and they always say, what's the other thing to try to.
39:36It's very difficult to convince a man that what he's doing is wrong if that's where he gets his paycheck.
39:42You know, and so you've got these things working together.
39:44And I know these institutions, they're literally institutions.
39:47You know, they are the place to go.
39:49It's the only shop in town.
39:50And it's been around for 100 years.
39:52And it's gotten really big the last 20, 30, 40 years.
39:55And it's, it's hard to go up against that.
39:58Do you find this whole David Goliath thing?
40:00If somebody from the CME is watching us, are they going to think I want to not have Greg be successful?
40:06Peter Thiel took a half a million dollars and turned it into a billion dollars using the exact same techniques we're using inside the investment club.
40:13He met a CEO.
40:14His name was Zuckerberg.
40:15He pitched him the deal.
40:16And he said, OK, I'll give you a half a million dollars.
40:18Mark went public and sold the shares to people like you.
40:21Well, what happened to Peter?
40:22Well, he exited and got a 2300X return.
40:26The wealthy invest in early stage companies, folks.
40:29The public markets are for suckers.
40:31It's a rigged game.
40:32By the way, this happens in crypto as well.
40:34It's called pre-sale tokens.
40:35This is Solana.
40:36Does anybody know this chain?
40:37They sold pre-sale tokens for four cents.
40:40And you can see the date on there, April 5th, 2018.
40:43Look at Solana today, folks.
40:46That thing's up over 1000X.
40:48The media and Wall Street and all these hype people get you to buy the top.
40:53Meanwhile, they put their clients in at the bottom and they use you for liquidity to make their clients rich.
41:00You can play this same game.
41:01You just have to have the financial education and the deal flow.
41:04That's it.
41:05You know, we want to position ourselves, especially in the early days of this, to be an alternative and adjacent marketplace, not necessarily a direct competitor.
41:15Right.
41:16Like, you know, the CME is an institution and we want the CME to exist.
41:23We actually want the CME to exist because that provides, you know, the differences in price and in volume and in product from our exchange to theirs provides arbitrage opportunities for traders.
41:36Right.
41:37And so much of that value can be captured.
41:39And that actually makes markets more efficient.
41:41Right.
41:42Like the ability to discover prices across multiple exchanges makes markets more efficient.
41:46And it's so critical to market operations.
41:48And you see it very fluidly in crypto.
41:51Right.
41:52If you have Bitcoin on exchange trading at 90,000 and Bitcoin on exchange B trading at 85,000, like those markets equalize.
41:59Right.
42:00And market participants that have access to both markets can actually earn very serious yield by trading across those exchanges.
42:06Right.
42:07So it's good.
42:08It's very good for the traders that, you know, we have multiple marketplaces.
42:13And again, by offering a venue that is accessible 24 hours a day, seven days a week, that allows traders that traditionally trade on the CME to come offload risk, offload, you know, basis risk, asymmetric risk, whatever their risk is in that moment or, you know, through their eyes.
42:35We need to ensure that.
42:36And again, I think it comes down to market responsibility to ensure that there is the ability to be able to kind of reduce that risk at the end of the day.
42:48Right.
42:49And, you know, on the CME now.
42:51Right.
42:52When an exchange closes and you see this in the securities exchanges like the NASDAQ or the NYSE, and then you also see it on the commodity side.
42:58Right.
42:59The exchange closes.
43:02Now, the pipe that takes orders on that exchange continues to take on orders, but nobody knows what the price is.
43:11Right.
43:12So you have all of these traders submitting, submitting, submitting, and they think they may have, you know, alpha one way or another on which which direction the asset is going to move.
43:20But at the end of the day, the inability to understand the price from the market's perspective causes, you know, huge gaps up and gaps down in the market.
43:30You know, when you're staring at the trading screen and you see that big jump in the candle from Friday to Monday like that, that inefficiency is represented there.
43:38And it's our and again, like I think, you know, blockchain provides this promise to help eliminate that.
43:45And it's, you know, especially for something that's so critical to human survival, like energy.
43:50Right.
43:51Again, we got kids doing this with meme coins right now.
43:53Why the hell can we not do it with energy?
43:55It's bloody crazy.
43:56Yeah.
43:57I've had this guy, Anthony Pompliano on my show.
44:00And we know Pomp.
44:01Yeah, he's huge.
44:02And he always tweets out on a Sunday when there's like a big news event in the world.
44:08Of course, Bitcoin's reacting.
44:09And he's always like tweeting out like the bankers right now, just like their blood is boiling because they have to wait 24 hours to trade on this information.
44:17Yeah, it is ridiculous.
44:19And Bitcoin, thank God, like, you know, Bitcoin has become a proxy for the global markets.
44:23Right.
44:24It's the only liquid instrument.
44:25Right.
44:26It has become a great proxy.
44:27Yeah.
44:28But it's also it's not the right proxy sometimes.
44:30So it's like.
44:31It's the best they have.
44:32It's not.
44:33It's not.
44:34It's like bad news.
44:35They sell Bitcoin.
44:36You might want to sell the S&P.
44:37You might want to sell some other things.
44:38So, yeah, it's a long time coming.
44:40This stuff needs to be 24-7.
44:42Yeah.
44:43And we're very excited to, you know, be able to provide that so much of so much of crypto, not only from, you know, the, you know, the innovative perspective, but also, you know, from the investment perspective is focused on just doing the same thing over and over again.
44:59Right.
45:00Like focused on creating the new L1 or L2.
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