00:00My guest on the Europe Conversation this week is Henne Verkoenen, Executive Vice President
00:12of the European Commission for Tech Sovereignty, Security and Democracy.
00:16She says the EU fully intends to apply its regulations against social media companies
00:22despite criticisms from the United States that they impinge on freedom of expression.
00:29So Henne Verkoenen, EU Commissioner and Executive Vice President on Tech Sovereignty, Security
00:34and Democracy.
00:35Thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
00:38It's a pleasure to be here.
00:39And can I ask you, first of all, obviously you have such an important mandate right now
00:44at this particular moment in time when there's such fears about disinformation, interference
00:49in democracy, mal-information, a mal-business practice where the EU has specific toolboxes,
00:56the Digital Services Act and the Digital Markets Act.
00:59Can you guarantee that the EU will ensure that these are rigorously applied to all industries,
01:05particularly social media industries, particularly those based in the United States?
01:09Yes, of course.
01:10We are now fully implementing and enforcing our rules when it comes to Digital Services
01:15Act, for example.
01:16And it's a very important tool, I see, because nowadays digital platforms, they play a very
01:22important role when we look at our society or our economy.
01:25And in the European Union, we want to make sure that also our digital environment is
01:29safe and fair and democratic.
01:32And that's why we have put certain legislations into place and now we are enforcing them.
01:37Because they come under so much attack from the likes of Elon Musk, who has a specifically
01:41important role in the US administration.
01:44Are you concerned that if the EU is to go what they see is too harshly against the likes
01:49of X, that there may be retaliation?
01:51We heard, for example, Vice President J.D.
01:53Vance saying that the US could pull support for Ukraine if the EU goes after X, as they
01:59see it.
02:00Of course, all the actions what we are taking, they have to be based to our legislation.
02:05And our rules are very fair because they are same rules for everybody who is operating
02:10and doing business in the European Union.
02:12So we have same rules for the European companies, for American companies, for the Chinese
02:16companies, because we want to make sure that we have also a fair and democratic, safe
02:20environment when it comes to our digital field.
02:23And for example, everything what is illegal in our societies in the European Union, it's
02:27also illegal in our online world.
02:30So what would you, what are your concerns around the likes of X and so on when it comes
02:34to algorithms, for example?
02:37Of course, this is something also what we have been now investigating from the
02:40commission side, especially the recommender system, for example, on different online
02:45platforms, because they have very much power, what kind of content they are showing for
02:50the citizens. And one of our main principles in our rules is that we are, we have set
02:55obligation for online platforms that they have to assess and mitigate the systematic
03:00risks, for example, what they are posing to our democratic systems, to our civic discourse,
03:04for our well-being, and also that they have to be transparent.
03:07For example, when it comes to recommender system, that the user knows why certain
03:11content is shown for her or him, and the user has to have also possibility to choose.
03:17And how much reaction have you had from the social media companies?
03:21Because we saw Meta, for example, say that they're going to get rid of fact checkers, for
03:25example. And then we saw concerns that Elon Musk may be changing the algorithm to allow
03:30for more far-right, disruptive information, malinformation on his social media
03:36platform. But they haven't really responded positively to the EU concerns.
03:41When it comes to Meta, they have confirmed that they will continue with the fact checkers
03:45in the European Union.
03:47And when it comes to X, in January, I made the decision that we were asking more
03:51information from X on their recommender system and what kind of changes there has been.
03:56So we have currently 10 investigations going on against very large online platforms
04:02where we are checking that if they are complying with our rules.
04:06And in the same time, we are also working all the time with online platforms with
04:09different guidelines and workshops and code of conduct and so on.
04:13So we have all the time different parts going on, how we are enforcing the rules with
04:18them. But I guess the question is, what kind of response might you get given that J.D.
04:23Vance has said if the EU comes after X, then there could be consequences for the U.S.
04:30support for Ukraine? Everything is intertwined at the moment, isn't this?
04:33I think it's important to underline that we are not going after anyone.
04:37We want to make sure that everybody is complying with our rules in the European Union,
04:42that they are respecting our rules and that we are now investigating.
04:45And that's why we are having a dialogue all the time going on with the online platforms.
04:51And have they responded positively with the investigation into X, for example, which
04:54started in December 23 and then was expanded just January this year.
04:59How is that investigation going?
05:00Are you getting the proper responses and engagement from X?
05:04Normally, it's always the case with the industries that everybody is protecting their
05:09business idea very much, of course, and their business interest.
05:12But yes, the online platforms, they are, of course, they are cooperating with the European
05:16Commission because European Union is the biggest or second biggest market for most of
05:23them. So European Union is super important market for the digital platforms.
05:27And many of them, they have more users in the European Union than they have, for example,
05:32in USA. So, of course, it's very important for them to comply with our rules.
05:36And would you be concerned at all that there might be a retaliation from the US
05:39government? Like, will you take that into account when there's a decision around what
05:44type or how big a fine may be if they're found in breach, that it wouldn't be so high
05:50that they might, that the Americans might say, well, you're attacking us.
05:53We're going to respond accordingly.
05:55These legislations, when we speak about digital markets acts and digital service act,
05:59they are very new legislations and we are now making first decisions based on them.
06:04So, of course, we want to make sure we want to be sure always when we are making
06:08decisions that we have to have very strong legal basis of all the decisions and we want
06:14to make sure. Some of those people, JD Vance again, but others in the United States
06:19would say that these rules are, in fact, an impression, an impact on freedom of
06:24expression and that the EU is trying to curtail freedom of expression by imposing these
06:30laws, particularly in the DSA.
06:31What would you say to that?
06:33That is not correct.
06:34So there is misunderstanding if if some of the citizens or some of the decision makers
06:41that we are limiting freedom of speech with these rules because we are protecting freedom
06:46of speech with our rules.
06:48And the DSA, it's not about content there.
06:50We are just setting obligation for online platforms that they have to have practices in
06:54place that how they make sure that they are mitigating the assessing, the systematic
06:59risks, how they make sure that they are not spreading this information.
07:04So we are not we are not regulating the content at all.
07:10And then just one of the watershed moments, of course, recently was the Romanian
07:13election. There was an investigation into TikTok in relation to potentially paid bots
07:20and so on, or paid people who had elevated an ultra-nationalist contender for
07:27presidency, which was subsequently annulled.
07:29Tell us a little bit about that investigation, because that is something that has
07:31worried, I suppose, lawmakers and governments all across Europe and beyond.
07:36We have to make sure that online platforms, they are not misused or manipulated during
07:40the elections. And that's why it's very important that they are also very well prepared
07:45for the electoral processes.
07:47And that's why we are always suggesting for the member states that before elections,
07:52they are organizing so-called roundtable with online platforms and with the local
07:58authorities, with the NGOs.
08:00And then they are checking the risks of the elections, that how different online
08:06platforms are prepared for that.
08:07For example, in Germany, they organized that before elections, but they also carried out
08:13so-called risk tests before the elections to really see that how the different online
08:20platforms, how they are prepared and how they are reacting to different things, what
08:25can happen during the electoral campaigns.
08:28And also in Romania, now they are organizing that kind of event with online platforms
08:33where they are checking. So it's important that we are we are preparing for the elections
08:37with the national authorities and with online platforms and also that online platforms
08:41that they make sure that they are not misused or manipulated and they are transparent
08:46during the electoral processes.
08:48And you're confident that the EU will not resile from implementing the DSA and DMA,
08:54if, where and when needed, despite the confrontation with the United States?
09:00It's super important for us that we are fully enforcing DMA and DSA, because when it
09:05comes to DMA there, we want to make sure that the big players, that they are not the
09:11dominant players, they are not misusing their market power, that also new innovations
09:17can enter to the markets in the European Union.
09:19And DSA is very much for making sure that illegal content and products are taken down
09:25and we have safe and democratic, fair environment.
09:28So I want to just ask you about something you announced this week at the European
09:31Parliament, the EU's internal security strategy.
09:34I suppose one part of it links to what we've seen recently, which was an investigation
09:39into Huawei or allegations of corruption, of bribery against EU officials or members
09:46of the European Parliament.
09:47This sort of aligns with that, doesn't it?
09:49Can you tell us a little bit about what the EU now needs to do to ensure that things
09:53like this don't happen again?
09:54And what is the internal strategy?
09:56Of course, it's important when it comes to different lobbying activities that we are
10:01following all the transparency rules different institutions are having.
10:05And of course, here we are now following the investigations on this case, that what has
10:10happened. But when it comes to our security environment as a whole, the reason
10:18why we wanted to update our internal security strategy was that the security environment
10:24is very alarming.
10:26Our citizens in the European Union, they are worried about security.
10:29In the latest Eurobarometer, 64 percent of the citizens said that they are worried about
10:35security. And also we can see that the security threats, they are now much more
10:40international and they are also very digital side.
10:44And just on the internal security strategy, what is the most fearful threats facing the
10:48EU in relation to that?
10:50Is it critical infrastructure attacks, cyber attacks, you know, hybrid war?
10:55And that is, I think, quite interesting question that what is the biggest threat?
10:59Because nowadays we can see that there is many different threats in the same time.
11:06Like you were listing, we have been witnessing a sabotage to our critical infrastructure.
11:12We have all the time massive cyber attacks towards the European Union.
11:16Also migrants, they have been used as a weapons on our external borders.
11:21And of course, in the same time, we have different organized crime, terrorist groups and so
11:25on. So we have to be prepared for many, many different kind of threats.
11:29And that's why we have to closely cooperate together.
11:33And also from the commission side, we now decided that always when we are making now
11:38new legal actions, we will include also the security assessment as a part of our impact
11:44assessment of two of different legislations.
11:46OK, Commissioner Hanna Verhoenen, Executive Vice President for Tech Sovereignty, Security
11:51and Democracy. Thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
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