'Without transatlantic dialogue, there is no security for Europe or for the world'

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00:00For more, we're joined by the former defense minister of Georgia, Tina Akita Shelley, in

00:06Paris for that defense and security conference taking place.

00:10Thank you for being with us here on France.

00:11Thank you for having me here.

00:13Your reaction to the day's news, we have this meeting, 30 chiefs of staff, not the United

00:19States in the room.

00:21Yeah, that's unfortunate.

00:22But at the same time, let's look at it as an opportunity.

00:26Opportunity for Europe to increase its capabilities, to strengthen its capabilities, to understand

00:33how much tied up Europe is together with the U.K., regardless of Brexit.

00:41And I believe that U.S. will come back to the board eventually.

00:45So this is just a passing storm?

00:49Let's hope so.

00:51Just a passing storm in this idea of a common European army seen from Georgia.

00:56Is that just a pipe dream?

00:58No.

00:59Why?

01:00Why is it a pipe dream?

01:01I think that European military standing together, well, within the NATO, we already, you already

01:08are standing together now.

01:11All capabilities are in line with each other.

01:14There is no major differences between the armies.

01:17I think all it needs is the strength and the structure put together and understanding

01:25that there might be a moment in history when defence is just European without American

01:33soldiers' foot on the ground.

01:35But I'm absolutely sure that if there is a threat to NATO security directly, obviously,

01:45war in Ukraine poses threat to NATO security.

01:48But I mean direct threat to NATO security.

01:50United States will be there as well to support the efforts and to stand with its long-term

01:55allies, both the U.K. and the European Union.

01:58Donald Trump dealing directly with Vladimir Putin.

02:02How is that seen in Georgia and Georgia where the prime minister is closer to the Kremlin

02:09than an opposition that's been protesting in the streets over the legislative elections

02:14recently?

02:16Well, 102 days Georgians are on the streets.

02:18Today will be 102nd day, non-stop protests, protests for the European Georgia, for Euro-Atlantic

02:26integration of Georgia.

02:28Unfortunately, for the first time, government and the people are split on this existential

02:34agenda for the survival of the country.

02:38We don't believe in direct negotiations with Vladimir Putin.

02:43That's been experienced for many countries, including this very country that we are in

02:48right now.

02:49In 2008, President Sarkozy negotiated peace for Georgia.

02:54We saw how it ended.

02:56Russian troops are standing on the soil of Georgia, 20 percent of the country still under

03:00the occupation.

03:01Vladimir Putin eventually never signed – well, actually, at that time, it was not Putin,

03:05it was a different president, but it does not really matter – eventually never signed

03:11the plan that the Georgia president signed.

03:14So there were two different texts, and there was an understanding that at the end of it,

03:18once the actual fighting phase was over, things could have been negotiated.

03:23It did not work like that.

03:24Then we've seen Crimea, but before that, there was Budapest Memorandum, which was signed

03:29guaranteed by all parties, including Russia, including the United States and other European

03:34nations.

03:36Russia has a tendency of using the momentum, gaining strength, and then attacking another

03:42nation.

03:43That's what we've been telling to the whole world after the 2008 war.

03:46That's what we've been warning the world after Crimea.

03:50Unfortunately, 2022 happened, and some countries were still saying that it was a surprise.

03:57We don't really understand why it was a surprise.

03:59Well, I hope President Trump can cut a deal with Russians different than anyone else was

04:05able to do it.

04:06You don't sound convinced.

04:08We don't have faith that Vladimir Putin can keep his word, that there is any meaning in

04:14his word.

04:16But with the necessary security guarantees for Ukraine, and with strengthening Ukraine,

04:22and Europe standing with Ukraine, let's hope for the deal to be beneficial.

04:31It cannot be without territorial integrity of Ukraine.

04:39It cannot be without security guarantees for Ukraine.

04:42You're a small nation, part of the former Soviet space, located on a major trade route

04:50that's always existed.

04:52You have Kazakhstan to one side, China, which has a port concession in Georgia, and of course,

04:59Russia, that we've been talking about.

05:02At this point in time, our people have less faith in Europe since January the 20th?

05:09No.

05:10And we can see on the map here, by the way, those important ports that you have on the

05:15Black Sea.

05:16Yes.

05:17Actual reality is that we have three major ports in Georgia.

05:20Well, actually, we have four ports in Georgia, three controlled by Georgian government today,

05:25and the first one in this stretched part, Abkhazia, occupied by Russia.

05:30Russia is promising to build up a military naval base, the addition to the military bases

05:36that they already have.

05:38So that's seen by Russians as one of those leverages they can use against Europe for

05:44all the disturbing the trade routes, if the Middle Corridor will actually materialize

05:49and gain the strength as it is seen on the drafts.

05:53So far, Batumi port is not controlled by Chinese, in Poti, there are very serious interests

06:01of Chinese, and Anaklia Deep Support, which is the project under development, as it is

06:07promised by the ruling party in Tbilisi, will be handed over to China beginning of April.

06:16This is one of the major things that we are fighting now against, that we are trying to

06:20convince the West, being the European Union, UK, United States, all the stakeholders to

06:26use this momentum and not let Georgian government to hand the major strategic asset of Georgia

06:32to Chinese.

06:33Georgian government understands that they cannot just go bluntly to Russia.

06:37So do you feel, again, I get back to my question, when you look at that map and you see the

06:41context with Ukraine, with Russia, do you feel more isolated than before?

06:50Well, there are two sides to the story, right?

06:53We do feel more isolated because for the first time we have a sitting de facto government

07:00that nobody recognizes, and I hope it will continue like that, who is aligned with Russia.

07:05And because of that, all our insecurities are even stronger.

07:10But at the same time, with the support that people of Georgia are getting from European

07:16Union, UK, US, Canada, all the democracies in the world, at the same time, we feel that

07:23there is a way to survive and there is a way to get that support materialized in actual

07:28help to the people of Georgia.

07:31But obviously we understand that first, what we need to do is to do our homework and deal

07:35with our own problems back home.

07:37Tina Kitesh, that brings us back to my initial question, which was, is Emmanuel Macron employing

07:43the right method in speaking with everyone but the United States when he's sitting down

07:50with those chiefs of staff?

07:53Or should he have included them in the room?

07:55Should they be in the room?

07:57I think French president already had a meeting at the Oval Office.

08:01He spoke with the Americans.

08:04We know from media that there was further communication with Washington, and I hope

08:09that dialogue will never stop because without the dialogue, without transatlantic dialogue,

08:15there is no security for Europe or for the world for that matter.

08:19And I believe that people understand it in Washington, the same way as we do in Europe

08:26and in the parts of the world that has been partially occupied by Russia over the years.

08:31Why has the world changed suddenly so fast?

08:35Well, we are told that now politics is transactional.

08:40And I guess that's kind of an answer we are given.

08:43But I think people have different visions, different understanding of the world, different

08:49understanding of how deals are done.

08:52When you have traditional sort of straightforward politicians in office, or when you have businessmen

08:57coming to the office, there are different approaches that I can understand.

09:02Most important part in it is that we don't lose the value system that United States or

09:09Europe was built on, because if that is lost, then countries like mine have no way of survival.

09:17When you see, on that score, when you see, for instance, Elon Musk blasting Romania's

09:23Supreme Court for stopping, the Constitutional Council for stopping the candidacy of the

09:30far-right candidate, what's your reaction?

09:34Yeah, that's very much against what his whole ideology, as he tries to present it, stands for.

09:41When he speaks that he's against USAID or National Endowment for Democracy or any other

09:47NGOs for that matter, because allegedly, as he believes, they intervene in the affairs

09:52of foreign countries.

09:54Well, the statements about the Romanian Constitutional Court is exactly interference in the affairs

10:01of a foreign country.

10:02I think Romanians are smart enough and strategic enough to deal with their own problems, problems

10:07with their democracy, and they will find best solution for their country.

10:11And Elon Musk, whether he wants it or not, have to accept and recognize it.

10:17But I think these are temporary issues, temporary problems that the world is facing.

10:24On a bigger picture, the faith of the democracies and the world security, European security,

10:33will be decided in deals with Kiev, not with Moscow, not somewhere else, but with Kiev.

10:39Whatever makes Ukrainian people happy, secure, will be the best solution for the security

10:46in Europe.

10:47Tina Kidesheli, thank you so much.

10:48Thank you very much.

10:49It's been great to be here on France 24.

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