00:00Anupamji, first of all welcome to INS and talking about liquid reality blends
00:05Indian classical music with jazz rock. So was it a conscious attempt to break
00:10genre barriers or did it happen naturally over time?
00:14Well thank you for having me Sharik. It is my pleasure to talk to you guys.
00:18Talking about liquid reality, there was no conscious effort to break genres or
00:24to create something that's not been done before.
00:28Usually music doesn't work like that. It's a very natural organic process where you start to
00:34amalgamate and connect your ideas through sound and you start to you know
00:39put everything say pen to paper and then music sort of flows in its own direction.
00:45Well there were definitely concepts that came with very strong musical ideas
00:51that I possess and I wanted to capture the lightning in the bottle if you will.
00:55And that's how like the initial writing process of liquid reality started.
01:00What is this liquid reality all about?
01:03It is my new solo album and it's coming up with AGS recordings in the United States and worldwide.
01:10It's coming, it's a worldwide release. The record label is called AGS Alternative Guitar Summit
01:15which is a very renowned guitar based label from New York City.
01:21And it has some great great musicians and legendary guitar players.
01:25I'm very honored to be included in that list.
01:28It's run by my friend Joel Harrison who's an American based composer, guitar player
01:33and he's a very renowned musician himself, a Guggenheim fellow awardee.
01:37And so the album came about my desire to bring together using my instrument
01:47my double neck special guitar which is something I discovered
01:51into fruition with music that I was thinking for a while but I hadn't executed.
01:57So I've been known for doing a lot of instrumental albums, a lot of solo recordings
02:02based on my sarod which is my previous instrument
02:05and my collaborations with great American jazz and classical musicians.
02:09But this time when I started writing music for this album
02:12my wife actually told me that you always write instrumental music
02:16when you lived in India, when I lived in India.
02:18I composed a lot of great albums for companies like Sarigoma, HMV, Times Music
02:26where I used to love working with singers, you know.
02:29And it's my first love to write and to produce and to compose and arrange
02:33with these amazing singers so I decided to bring that back.
02:37And now in America as opposed to maybe 10 years ago
02:41you know there are great singers that sing in Indian languages.
02:45So it started with the idea of me starting to compose all this interesting music
02:50and then involving and collaborating with these great musicians
02:54and that turned into Liquid Reality.
02:56Tell us something about your journey which is quite inspiring
03:00from Bombay to global stage.
03:02So how do you grow up in India, shape up your musical identity?
03:05Thank you, thank you.
03:07Well it's inspiring, it's also very challenging.
03:09I grew up in Bombay, not too far from here.
03:11We're sitting in Bandra right now with the wonderful Sharik Ji.
03:14And I grew up in Juhu which is not too far from here.
03:17And yeah, I mean late 90s, early 2000s kid.
03:22Grew up playing guitar and played with a lot of local bands.
03:26And you know I come from a family of musicians.
03:28My mom was a great singer.
03:30My grandfather was a great sitar player.
03:32My great-grandfather was just a genius luminary who was a poet.
03:37He was a sitar player, he played the Esraj.
03:40He was conferred even a title by the great Ramdhanath Tagore
03:45and who penned some words of poetry for him.
03:48And he was also one of the teachers of the great Tumdi artist
03:51Sureshwari Devi for us.
03:53So with that background I grew up playing guitar, mainly western music.
03:58You know a lot of rock, a little bit of jazz, a lot of metal and rock.
04:02And then I started to get more deeply inspired by the classical music of India.
04:07I had the great opportunity when I was 16 years old
04:09to watch the great Ustad Ali Akbar Khan Sahib
04:12who later on would I know I would become a part of that Nirvana.
04:15His son was my main teacher, Ustad Ashish Khan Sahib.
04:17And it changed my life to watch Khan Sahib play.
04:20And I had to pursue the sarod.
04:23So I put the guitar down.
04:25I'm a person that can only play one instrument at one time.
04:27I'm not a multi-instrumentalist.
04:29I'm a composer who expresses himself through one instrument.
04:32So I put the guitar down and I went seriously into the sarod
04:35studying ragas and talas and riyaz and just 15 hours of practicing.
04:41And then when I moved to the U.S.
04:43a lot of my collaborations were based on the sarod.
04:45I moved to the U.S. because I love jazz and I love western classical music
04:49and I've had the opportunity to study with masters
04:52and work with the great musicians.
04:54And at some point in life the guitar made a re-entry into my life
04:58because when I was playing the sarod I was missing the guitar.
05:01When I was playing the guitar I was missing the sarod.
05:04And as a composer it was important for me to amalgamate
05:08both these instruments into one.
05:10And hence this instrument which I call Khan Baagat.
05:22Well, music is a very colorful medium.
05:24And especially when I think of music
05:26I think of the word fusion
05:30not as a genre or a style.
05:33I think of it as a concept.
05:35It's conceptually fusion.
05:36We are fusion.
05:37We are a direct fusion of our fathers and mothers.
05:3950% of each.
05:41So everything in life is fusion.
05:43In our bodies chemically we are fusion.
05:47So the colors of music, just like the diverse colors of Holi in India
05:53being, according to me, musically the greatest country in the world.
05:57Because it just doesn't boast of one classical music system.
06:01It boasts of two.
06:03The music of North India and the music of South India.
06:05Carnatic classical music and Hindustani classical music.
06:08There's no other country in the world, bar none, in the United States
06:12that has two fully developed classical traditions.
06:16So these are different colors.
06:18The folk music of India changes every 25 kilometers.
06:20The food changes.
06:22So these colors play an important part.
06:24And it just happened when we picked the date for the release.
06:26We were like, oh, it's Holi.
06:28So that's very fortuitous.
06:30Your custom double neck guitar is revolutionary.
06:33So how does it change your approach to composing and performing?
06:38And if you can perform something on the guitar.
06:41Certainly.
06:42I'll answer that question first and then I'll play a little bit.
06:45So, well, it's inspiring.
06:48Revolutionary, I don't know.
06:50But it's definitely challenging.
06:52And for me, it basically inspires me every day.
06:57Because I discover something new.
06:59And because I'm a child of two worlds musically, as you will see.
07:03That this side, the fretless neck, essentially is my Hindustani.
07:07It is my sarod.
07:09Or my sarangi, or my sitar, or my surbahar, or my senior abab,
07:12or my rudravina, if you will.
07:14And this side, of course, is my western.
07:16The harmony and the counterpoint and the voice reading.
07:19And the chordal colors and all of that.
07:22So every day when I sit to practice.
07:24Because practice is really important for me.
07:26You know, I have to practice two.
07:28It's almost two separate instruments, you know.
07:30So I have to practice them individually.
07:32And Indian music is based on something known as the shruti system.
07:35You know, the microtonal system.
07:37You know, the system of just intonation, technically speaking.
07:42Whereas western music, that's why you see the frets here.
07:44It's based on a system known as equal temperament.
07:47And this is very important.
07:49Because in Indian music, you slide.
07:51There is meand.
07:53In Indian music, the notes are never curved like this.
07:56They're always like this.
07:58This is a very special feature.
07:59It's like a wave.
08:00Like a wave.
08:01Exactly.
08:02Whereas in western music, it's like a peak.
08:05You know.
08:06And these are two different beautiful things.
08:08And I embrace them both equally, you know.
08:11And I don't discriminate music.
08:13You know, music is a universal language.
08:15And I don't discriminate anything.
08:17With artists from different countries collaborating on this album.
08:21So how do you ensure a seamless fusion of styles?
08:24With artists from different countries collaborating.
08:28See, Shariq.
08:29The universal language we speak is music.
08:32In a world we live in where there's so much, you know, war.
08:36And there's so much pain and anguish.
08:40And there's so much economic disparity.
08:42Art is one thing that truly brings human beings together.
08:45No matter what culture, what language, what religion, what race.
08:50If people believe in that.
08:51Two musicians when they're sitting with two instruments.
08:53And you just start communicating through music.
08:56And that is a profound thing.
08:58That's a beautiful thing.
08:59That is what makes us human.
09:01You know.
09:02And I truly believe in that.
09:03I do not believe that art separates us.
09:06Art joins us.
09:07Politics, you know, can be complicated.
09:09Money can be complicated.
09:11But artists are very pure.
09:12That's why in India, art is known as Natharama.
09:15You know, it connects you with the divine.
09:17And when I'm working with, especially in New York City, I have to say.
09:21Just like Bombay.
09:22You know, it's a very diverse city.
09:23Musicians, the greatest musicians from all over the world.
09:26And we just talk the language of music.
09:28You know, we get together.
09:29I'll write something.
09:30I love to write the music through, like, traditional Western notation.
09:34And we'll set up charts.
09:36We'll get together, we'll rehearse.
09:37And we'll just go play the music.
09:39To me, it's all the same.
09:40Whether it's Japan or China or Germany or France or, you know, anywhere.
09:45Mother India is special.
09:48Purists often argue that fusion music dilutes the essence of classical tradition.
09:53So how do you respond to that criticism?
09:55Well, like I was saying earlier.
09:58I consciously believe that the word fusion is a little misunderstood.
10:02I do not think fusion is a style of music.
10:04I really think fusion is a concept.
10:07I think, like I was saying, we are all fusion.
10:10We're exactly halves of our mothers and our fathers.
10:14That makes us fusion.
10:16Our mothers come from a completely different family.
10:18Our fathers come from a different family.
10:20From a part of the world or family.
10:22And we fuse to become our identities.
10:24Our food is fusion.
10:26Tomatoes didn't belong to India.
10:28They came as a part of the Colombian exchange.
10:30We use tomatoes in our food.
10:32That's fusion.
10:33Similarly, music, if you look at the word sitar.
10:36The word sitar is a Persian word.
10:38But we play classical Indian music on it.
10:40The word sarud.
10:41My previous instrument, sahrud, in Persian means good sound.
10:46But it is played in Indian music.
10:48This amalgamation of cultures has always existed in music.
10:52Film music is fusion music.
10:54You'll have a wonderful melody, which is of an Indian ilk.
10:57But you have this lovely orchestration, which is Western.
11:00Even if it is the deepest classical music, there is some fusion in it.
11:04You cannot escape that.
11:05Because of humanity, we are a fusion of chemicals.
11:09So I look at it even from a scientific point of view.
11:12I have a problem with the word purity.
11:14Every time I hear the word purity, I start to get a little suspicious.
11:19Because it sort of reminds me of things like pure blood, pure race, and pure people.
11:25So I don't subscribe to those ideas.
11:28Sir, you have said John McLoughlin.
11:34McLoughlin, Kita playing in Shakti was a revolution.
11:37So do you think Indian musicians got the same level of global recognition as Western artists in fusion music?
11:43Absolutely.
11:44And I find they get even more recognition now.
11:48Especially now.
11:49And like I was saying to you earlier, Shariq, I feel like every Indian musician has a little bit of Shakti in them.
11:54They've been such a path breaker.
11:57And they've been such a game changer in music.
11:59And they were doing it in the 70s.
12:01Even before we were born.
12:02At least before I was born.
12:03And they really changed the way fusion, or I like to call it crossover music.
12:10Because it crosses over cultures.
12:12Is perceived and also enjoyed and experienced.
12:17And I feel, yes, Indian musicians, especially I like, you know, I'm also involved in the MESC.
12:22With my friend Anusha Srinivasan Iyer.
12:25Part of the, I feel like the ministry under Modiji, they're doing a great job with the MESC.
12:30With upskilling of Indian musicians.
12:32And I feel this is a great visionary initiative.
12:35That I'm very, very honored to be a part of the MESC as an honorary member.
12:39Where upskilling and education become a big part.
12:42Indian musicians are already global.
12:44You know, they're winning Grammys.
12:46I'm a voting member of the Grammy Academy.
12:48And, you know, every year you see amazing Indian artists really break the barrier.
12:53And Pandit Ravi Shankar was the one that, we call him the godfather of world music.
12:59You know, he was the one that really brought these worlds together.
13:02We're really basically sitting on his shoulders, you know.
13:05And my teacher, Ustad Ashish Khan, back in the 70s when he was working with George Harrison of the Beatles.
13:10And so many amazing projects.
13:12These people have led the way.
13:14Do you think that these people have led the way?
13:19But at that time there was no such recognition given to them?
13:23I feel there was incredible recognition given to Pandit Ravi Shankar.
13:27Incredible recognition.
13:29Not only the Bharat Ratna, which of course is amazing and, you know, it's such an honor.
13:33But from the Grammys to winning an Oscars.
13:36But there were not many people knowing about that achievement of them.
13:40Which was such a big achievement for India.
13:42Well, but it was also the 70s and there was no social media.
13:45You know, the world was a different place.
13:47You know, we didn't communicate as easily without the internet as we did.
13:50But imagine then where there were barely any Indian musicians in the US or in Europe, you know.
13:57But these people came in and they completely changed the way people think of India back then.
14:03Because, you know, people didn't know much about India back in the 60s, in the 50s.
14:07When Ustad Ali Akbar Khan went for the first time and cut the first LP of Indian music in 1955 in New York City, my city.
14:17And the commentary was given by the great violinist Yehudi Menuhin, you know.
14:22And yeah, I mean, if they were not getting recognition then, which they were,
14:27they're getting even more recognition now because of social media.
14:30And the world's a closer place because of the internet.
14:33Some say that Fusion is just a trendy label for marketing music.
14:37Do you think Fusion music is truly innovative or is it just a repacking of existing traditions?
14:43It's in the hands of the artist, really.
14:45You know, it's what the artist does with it.
14:48You can go to a restaurant and they can say that, oh, we have Delhiwala Butter Chicken.
14:53But they could be making you Hyderabadwala Butter Chicken and nothing wrong with it.
14:56But it really depends on who the artist is.
14:59I feel this is a very, very subjective thing.
15:02So if you have an artist that has taken the time to study music,
15:06taken the time to study Indian music, Western music,
15:09Fusion just doesn't have to be Indian and Western music.
15:12You know, it could be African music meets Japanese music.
15:15But it is, like I said, it is not a genre.
15:19It's not a style. For me, it's a concept.
15:21Fusion is how you take the jeera and you put the dhaniya into it.
15:27And that is fusing with the chemicals and creating this beautiful aroma.
15:30So that's in the hands of the chef, you know.
15:32So a competent, skilled composer have always created great fusion music
15:38from the likes of RD Burman, to the likes of Ravi Shankar, to the likes of Shakti.
15:43Last thing, we have some fun questions.
15:45Go ahead. Let's have fun.
15:47So if liquid reality were a holy color, what shade would it be and why?
15:53If liquid reality was a holy color, as in not the holy trinity,
15:57like the festival holy.
16:01I would think it would be something like crimson red.
16:04Don't ask me why.
16:07What's the wildest reaction you have received from a classical purist
16:12after they heard your music?
16:14The wildest reaction I've received is they have embraced it
16:19and they've said, you're changing the game.
16:23If you could jam with any musician dead or alive, who would it be and why?
16:53Since you are a fan of both Indian and Western music,
17:06if Eddie Van Halen and Ustad Ali Akbar Khan had a musical duo,
17:12who do you think would win?
17:23What fun people think always get wrong about fusion music?
17:54You could go anywhere with your wife, with your kids.
17:55You could watch a movie.
17:56You could go for a nice dinner.
17:58But you came all the way, bought a ticket, sat down,
18:02and you watched a concert.
18:04And you gave me that attention and that time in your life.
18:07You are not wrong, man.
18:09The audience is never wrong.
18:11The artist can be wrong, but the audience is never wrong.
18:15Lastly, we just need to ask you one thing.
18:18Recently, there are many news coming up about the concerts of India.
18:24Some say that the organization is not good.
18:27Some say the infrastructure is not good.
18:30And recently there was a case of legendary singer Udit Narayan.
18:34So he was in a concert where the fan came and kissed Udit on the cheek.
18:43And he suddenly was in what mood, we don't know.
18:46But he kissed on our lips.
18:49So if you want to give a reaction,
18:51how an artist should maintain his dignity in a concert?
19:12We are Saraswati Bhakts first.
19:14So it's a very pure thing.
19:16Only in India you'll see that we'll go and we'll touch the stage
19:19and we'll take a pranam and we'll take our shoes off.
19:22So it's such a beautiful thing.
19:24Look, I don't know anything about such a controversy.
19:26So I cannot comment on something I haven't seen.
19:28There are many things coming about AI music and AI tools.
19:34Good question.
19:35So tell us something about that.
19:38Is it damaging the image of musicians or singers?
19:43What do you have to say about that?
20:08orchestras and stuff.
20:09But then keyboard sequencing started.
20:11And those poor guys were driving rickshaws.
20:13So technology will come.
20:15You cannot stop it.
20:16That's just like trying to stop a tide or a wave.
20:20There was a time when you had dial-up phones.
20:23Hello.
20:24But now it's a mobile phone.
20:25So technology will come.
20:27It's again how you use it.
20:28Technology is a double-edged sword.
20:30It can destroy.
20:31It can also create.
20:32So I feel like if we let AI replace the human element in art or society.
20:40See, remember, even pilots when they're flying a plane,
20:43they rely on a lot of technology, a lot of computer instrumentation.
20:47But the final decision is always that human intuition.
20:51So that is what makes us artists, musicians, human beings.
20:56That complex fusion of ideas is what makes us human beings.
21:01So if AI completes the algorithm, totally gets rid of that human element,
21:06then it's not the music I'm personally interested in.
21:09Because for me, music is a human interest thing.
21:13Yeah.
21:14And lastly, what message do you have to give to your friends?
21:18Stay safe.
21:19Stay healthy.
21:20Stay responsible.
21:21Be good to your parents.
21:22They are the blessing.
21:24Be good to your fellow human beings.
21:26Listen to good music.
21:27And if you're a guitar player, man, practice 10 hours a day.
21:30You're welcome.
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