00:00This is apropos. Well as France commemorates the victims of the deadly
00:06assault on Charlie Hebdo ten years ago, the satirical magazine has published a
00:11special so-called God-mocking edition to mark the anniversary of the jihadist
00:16attack. It centers on the paper's trademark theme freedom of expression as
00:21Yinka Oyatali explains. Exactly ten years on from the deadly terror attack on its
00:28officers, Charlie Hebdo wants to show it's uncowed and still provoking. To
00:34commemorate the anniversary, the French satirical newspaper publishing this
00:37special edition, the word indestructible splashed across the front page. Its dark
00:43humor still very much alive and so is the pain of that fateful day.
00:48It's a shame. It's a shame what happened. It shouldn't happen. Freedom of press,
00:53freedom of expression. We're in France. We have the right to say everything. That's
00:58the message the satirical weekly wants to pass on in its latest edition. Inside
01:03it's published 40 winning entries from a cartoons competition it organized
01:07calling for artists to mock God and religious leaders. The paper also
01:11reprinted its controversial depiction of Prophet Muhammad, a cartoon that triggered
01:16the attack by jihadist government in 2015 which left eight staff members dead.
01:21Charlie Hebdo is undeterred but this cartoonist says the industry did not
01:25survive the massacre unscathed. It's quite strange because after 2015
01:31cartoonists were regarded as heroes of democracy but it all died down very
01:35quickly and if you look at the sales of Charlie Hebdo and newspapers in general
01:40you can see that the dust settled very quickly. Now it's coming back with the
01:4510th anniversary. It's a bit of a shame that we have to take an interest in
01:49cartoons only when we remember the attacks. This week's edition will also
01:54feature a survey carried out by EFAP on attitudes in France towards press
01:59freedom. It found that 76% of respondents believe freedom of expression and the
02:04freedom to caricature were fundamental rights while 62% think people have the
02:09right to mock religious beliefs. For more we're joined now by lawyer, human rights
02:15advocate and expert on free speech Jacob Machangama who's founder of the
02:20think-tank the future of free speech as well as being a research professor at
02:24Vanderbilt University. Thank you so much for being with us on the program this
02:28evening. As we heard there in that report cartoonists say their job has changed
02:33significantly particularly here in France since the Charlie Hebdo attack. So
02:38when it comes to freedom of speech has terrorism won as some suggest? I hope it
02:45hasn't won but it has certainly pushed the limits of free speech and curtailed
02:52our freedom to express views that we took for granted before this this threat.
02:58And of course it's not only cartoonists you know it's teachers in
03:03France. It's five years ago since he was was killed. So this is a real
03:08threat against freedom of expression in in Europe. And what are your particular
03:14concerns when it comes to the situation here in Europe and particularly here in
03:18France about the rise of restrictive legislation and the approach to freedom
03:23of expression? So I think one of the great ironies is that France has been
03:31French governments both Hollande and Macron have been very strong in
03:35condemning attacks on cartoonists defending the right to blaspheme but at
03:42the same time France has adopted pretty strict laws against glorification of
03:49terrorism for instance that have been used even against political expression.
03:54And so I find it I understand the urge because France has been subject to a
04:01wave of deadly terrorism that has targeted people for speaking out. But
04:06it's difficult to defend freedom of expression by restricting it. So I think
04:11that is something that is concerning because that too will undermine free
04:16speech in the long run. And Jacob does all of this leave any space for satire
04:21if the fear of causing offense to certain groups is that actually killing
04:26the medium itself do you believe? I hope it's not killing it and of course it's
04:32fine to be offended. I'm sure many people from the left or from the right have
04:39been offended by Charlie Hebdo. But the problem is when you react with violence
04:44or when you demand that the law should should limit the right to to offend.
04:49That is the big problem. And you can understand why a lot of cartoonists
04:53don't are fearful of of drawing cartoons because who wants to to to be killed.
05:01We should also remember that it's it's 2025 also marks the 20th anniversary of
05:06the Danish Mohammed cartoons and that they are part of the reasons why Charlie
05:11Hebdo was attacked because Charlie Hebdo was one of very few magazines in
05:15democracies that had the courage to reprint these cartoons in solidarity with
05:20the Danish newspaper Jyllandsposten that was subjected to terrorist attacks and
05:24that ultimately resulted in this attack. So this is an ongoing threat that has
05:29been going on for a long time with huge repercussions for free speech in Europe.
05:35Annie, you've said in the past that the culture of free speech that can
05:38essentially be more important than the laws that are in place to protect free
05:43speech or when it comes to censorship. Traditional media outlets currently they
05:49express a lot of you know wariness about approaching certain subjects because of
05:53the backlash that they're afraid that they might receive online. So how is the
05:58whole internet forum, social media forums, websites, how are they affecting
06:04censorship and the right to the freedom of expression?
06:09Well I think when it comes to the culture of free speech the internet has
06:13both great potential but also some drawbacks. It has great potential in the
06:21sense that it has given a voice to a lot of people who previously did not have a
06:25voice but it's also true that when you encounter the voices of everyone then
06:30you also hear extremism, you hear things that you don't want to like, that you
06:36don't like. And I think we have to develop a culture where we're more
06:41robust, where our response to being confronted with things that we find
06:45offensive should not be to try and get it get it shut down. And I think it's
06:52extremely unhelpful if traditional media for instance self-censor out of fear for
06:57attacks by terrorists for instance. That helps the case of violent terrorists. And
07:05of course it's easy for me to say that that journalists and editors should be
07:08brave when they ultimately risk their lives but we have to remember and France
07:12knows this very well at the country that the freedom of expression was a right
07:16that was won through bloody revolutions and a lot of people paid a very high
07:22price for it so it's not a right that we should give up easily.
07:25And the approach can also seem slightly contradictory. You've also pointed out
07:29that the French president while he defends on one hand the right to
07:33blasphemy while also rejecting for example kind of a jihadist veto following
07:39the attacks on Charlie Hebdo following the murder of Samuel Paty also he's
07:44banned more civil society organizations than any other modern French president.
07:50Yeah. Yes. I think this is back to the schizophrenia of the French approach to
07:56to to freedom of expression. And I think ultimately this helps erode the culture
08:03of free speech because when you want on the one hand have a government that
08:07says everyone has the right to offend. We have to stand firm on free expression
08:10but then at the same time bans organizations because they say things
08:16that are offensive or deemed extremist by the government. Then that is not a
08:22consistent or principled approach to free speech. And without a higher degree
08:26of consistency and principle I don't think you you really have an effective
08:31guarantee for free speech. So I worry that free speech in France and Europe
08:35more generally is under pressure from from various sides. I mean I'm a Danish
08:40citizen even though I live in in the U.S. but Denmark last year introduced a
08:44law that would prohibit the the burning of holy books for instance out of fear
08:53of of terrorism. And I think most people would agree that burning a Koran or a
08:59Bible is not a nice and a polite thing to do. But when when governments
09:04criminalize that say we're going to put you in prison if you if you mark holy
09:09books then they're also saying that religious feelings religious doctrines
09:14and the most extreme voices get to have a veto. And so these kinds of
09:19developments put free expression under pressure from from from various sides in
09:25Europe unfortunately. But Jacob do certain norms not need to be imposed in
09:29the name of tolerance? Some argue that self-censorship censorship actually
09:34becomes necessary if we don't want to offend or hurt members of certain
09:39religious or ethnic groups. Well I mean everyone self-censors every day just
09:48that's necessary to to live in a in a society. But if you self-censor out of
09:53fear of being of being killed then that I think is extremely problematic. And
09:59and when it is specific specifically when it comes to religion I think it's
10:03extremely important that we're allowed to criticize religion and even mock
10:09religion. That has been an extremely important part of getting to free and
10:14open democracies. It's not that long ago in European history that that when you
10:22did that that could have very serious consequences for you. I mean it's one of
10:28the reasons why the French Enlightenment was such a monumental event because in
10:33Enlightenment philosophy challenged the authority of the of the church,
10:37challenged the authority of religion and that should not be rolled back. And Jacob
10:42historically speaking the left we might say was opposed to censorship. Many on
10:46the left though they now support restrictions. We see that in ongoing
10:50debates about cancel culture and also limits that are being imposed on
10:54academic freedom. Why is that? I think there is a tendency among some on the
11:02left to say that free expression and equality are clashing. I think that's a
11:08misguided understanding. I think free speech and equality are mutually
11:15reinforcing rather than mutually exclusive. I think every oppressed
11:18marginalized group has relied on speech to make their case to argue for
11:24acceptance equality. So it may be out of good intentions not wanting to
11:31offend or marginalize minorities but what often happens is that you know
11:37these limits will be defined and enforced by the majority. So if you are a
11:41minority you're only ever a political majority away from being the target
11:45rather than the beneficiary of such laws. So I think those on the left who think
11:49that limiting free speech benefits minorities are seriously misguided.
11:55It's a fascinating topic. Jacob thank you so much for your time with us on the program.
11:58That is Jacob Machangama founder of the think tank the future of free speech.
12:03Well that is it from us.
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