- 1 year ago
Eight years ago, the mood on the campaign trail was so toxic that US First Lady Michelle Obama told voters "when they go low, we go high." In 2024, with a campaign that's too close to call, it feels even darker. To borrow the title of a famous book about the 1972 election, there is plenty of fear and loathing on the campaign trail in the homestretch of a tight US presidential race marred by character assassinations and racist tropes.
We ask what is fuelling the burning of ballot boxes and threats against poll workers. It's certainly about opposing interests and values, but in a digital age on steroids, is it also about the way that frenzied punchlines are marketed and pushed to rival communities and tribes on our smartphones? On that score, we ask why so many of the masters of today's mass media are all too happy to allow hate to spread on their platforms and buy into Donald Trump's infamous 2017 line, after a far-right rally turned deadly, that there are "very fine people on both sides". Produced by Alessandro Xenos, Rebecca Gnignati and Ilayda Habip.
Visit our website:
http://www.france24.com
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https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English
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https://twitter.com/France24_en
We ask what is fuelling the burning of ballot boxes and threats against poll workers. It's certainly about opposing interests and values, but in a digital age on steroids, is it also about the way that frenzied punchlines are marketed and pushed to rival communities and tribes on our smartphones? On that score, we ask why so many of the masters of today's mass media are all too happy to allow hate to spread on their platforms and buy into Donald Trump's infamous 2017 line, after a far-right rally turned deadly, that there are "very fine people on both sides". Produced by Alessandro Xenos, Rebecca Gnignati and Ilayda Habip.
Visit our website:
http://www.france24.com
Like us on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English
Follow us on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/France24_en
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NewsTranscript
00:00Eight years ago, the mood on the campaign trail in the U.S. was so toxic that first
00:06lady Michelle Obama told voters, when they go low, we go high.
00:10In 2024, one week out in a campaign that's too close to call, it feels even darker.
00:18Donald Trump's former chief of staff, John Kelly, a retired four-star general, confirmed
00:23that while Donald Trump was president, he said he wanted generals like Adolf Hitler
00:29had.
00:30But Kamala is labeling more than hair for the country as the enemy combatants, and she's
00:39calling them all fascists and Nazis, OK?
00:43But she's a fascist, OK?
00:45She's a fascist.
00:46Yeah, to borrow the title of a famous book about the 1972 election, there's plenty of
00:51fear and loathing on the campaign trail.
00:53This in the homestretch of a U.S. presidential race that's tight, and it's marred by character
00:59assassinations, even racist tropes.
01:02We'll ask what's fueling the burning of ballot boxes and threats against poll workers.
01:08Is it about opposing interests and values?
01:11That's for certain.
01:12But in a digital age on steroids, is it also about the way frenzied punchlines are marketed
01:18and pushed to rival communities and tribes over our smartphones?
01:24On that score, we'll ask why so many of the masters of today's mass media are all too
01:29happy to allow hate to spread on their platforms and buy into Donald Trump's 2017 line after
01:36a far-right rally turned deadly, that there are good people on both sides.
01:40Today in the France 24 debate, we're asking how viral the hate can go in this U.S. elections
01:45finale.
01:46Joining us from Washington, D.C., Jamie Kerchick, contributing opinions writer for The New York
01:51Times, where you recently wrote a piece entitled, How Lying Became Disinformation.
01:56Thanks for joining us.
01:59Thanks for having me.
02:00Veteran Republican pollster and strategist Craig Tufte is also with us from the U.S.
02:06Capitol.
02:07Good to see you.
02:08Ça va.
02:09We're doing good on this end.
02:13From Rome, venture capitalist Michael Furtick, founder of Heroic Ventures.
02:18Welcome to the show.
02:19Hi.
02:21And France 24's Ketavan Ghorjasthani, if you take in your vitamins, it's seven days
02:26to go.
02:27Yes, I have.
02:28You're ready.
02:29Okay.
02:30If you're on the go, by the way, you can listen to the show wherever podcasts are streamed.
02:37Let's start with what happened on Sunday in New York.
02:39Jaws dropped on this side of the Atlantic after that big rally at Madison Square Garden
02:43by Donald Trump.
02:46But Jessica LeMessurier was there.
02:53Protesters outside New York's Madison Square Garden stadium make it clear that for them
02:57Donald Trump is not welcome here, but thousands from all over the country have come out to
03:03see him.
03:04The fact that this can be happening in New York City, which is one of the most democratic
03:07and welcoming and equal places to live in the country, is embarrassing.
03:12I'm here to just remind the New York City community and the black community in New York
03:16specifically of Trump's history of racist behaviour, both against my community and communities
03:21in general.
03:22Trump's event has drawn comparisons from local officials to a Nazi rally held back in 1939
03:29here in Madison Square Garden.
03:31It's Trump's rhetoric about immigrants, amongst other things, that have led critics to make
03:37such comparisons.
03:39As we rescue our economy, I will also restore our borders.
03:45There's never been anything like it.
03:49It's bigger than inflation.
03:53It's bigger than the economy.
03:55What they're doing to our country, they're allowing criminals from all over the world
04:01to enter our country.
04:02We want people here who are going to build this country better, who are going to make
04:03it better, who are going to contribute, rather than to destroy and take away.
04:11If you look at some of the tactics, especially the way he talks about immigrants and dehumanises
04:14them very strategically, it is similar to what you've seen in other fascist movements.
04:21The stadium, which holds 20,000 people, was packed.
04:25Thousands more gathered outside, including Sylvia, who immigrated from Peru to New York
04:3025 years ago.
04:32She came from Jackson Heights in Queens to see Trump with her son.
04:36I don't believe he really wants to carry out mass deportations.
04:39He's just going to get the migrants who are delinquents out, the people who are coming
04:42here to steal.
04:43Her son explains that he thinks it's the Venezuelans who are the problem, not the Peruvians.
04:49Peruvians, you know, they came here to have a better job, but Venezuelans, no.
04:53They're here to kill, get arrested, robbed.
04:57Trump has promised he will win New York, a democratic stronghold where one in every five
05:03residents was born abroad.
05:10Kerevan Ghorjasthani, update us on the Trump campaign on D-7, because there was the former
05:19president who made remarks earlier in Florida before he heads to a rally in Pennsylvania,
05:23in Allentown, Pennsylvania.
05:25Yes, a rally in Allentown, Pennsylvania, which is home to a lot of Puerto Rican Americans.
05:33And Pennsylvania itself has, among the battleground states, the largest community of Puerto Rican
05:40descent.
05:41And so the timing, of course, for Donald Trump is a little bit tricky because, of course,
05:45everyone is talking about those comments made by a comedian, not even by Donald Trump, by
05:49a comedian on Puerto Rico being an island of floating garbage.
05:56And Donald Trump probably didn't think that one of the lines of a comedian would be what
06:01makes the headlines coming out of this Madison Square Garden rally.
06:05But it is something that has grown and has become viral.
06:10And you were mentioning the sort of virality of small quotes.
06:14And this seems to have exploded, especially among Puerto Ricans, but among Latinos at
06:21large in Pennsylvania, where he's going to be going.
06:24So much so that local officials decided to shut down the schools today out of an abundance
06:31of caution, because there might be a protest around the arena where he's going to be speaking.
06:35But the interesting thing is going to be to see whether or not he addresses those comments
06:41made by that comedian who was handpicked by the Trump campaign to speak at that rally.
06:47The campaign itself put out a statement very quickly distancing itself from those comments
06:53saying that they didn't reflect the Trump campaign or Donald Trump.
06:57But Trump himself, besides saying that the rally at Madison Square Garden was a lovefest,
07:02hasn't really gone into the details of those comments, even though Republican officials,
07:08especially in areas that have large Latino populations, have come out very strongly against
07:15those comments made by the comedian.
07:18And some even are pushing a little bit Donald Trump in the campaign to put out a much bigger
07:24or more worded apology when it comes to that, because they are, of course, going after the
07:30Latino vote.
07:32And this rally in Allentown was likely aimed in part at the Latino voters.
07:38And this is what we're talking about right now and sort of overshadows probably the message
07:43that they wanted to send to the Latinos.
07:46Craig Tufte, why is this issue, immigration and, well, in this case, pushed to, by again,
07:58as Ketavan was saying, by the undercard at that rally, to racist limits?
08:04Why is this happening in 2024?
08:08Well, words matter.
08:12And I think what these folks are doing, both the Harris campaign and the Trump campaign,
08:20are using words that probably have been tested via polling.
08:27So I think they're moving the numbers, attempting to move the numbers by using some of these
08:32words.
08:34So they've just found scientifically, it seems like it's off the cuff, but what you're saying
08:41is that this has been tried and tested, and this is the way they're trying to energize
08:46their base to go out and vote.
08:48I think that's true.
08:49Anytime you use inflammatory words, it's going to cause some ripples.
08:57And I think that they are obviously doing nightly polling, tracking polls, so they know
09:05what is moving particular demographic groups.
09:09And those are obviously the words and the phrases that the candidates are using.
09:17And is it a winning formula?
09:19Well, unfortunately, negative campaigning and negative statements, they do work.
09:26They do move numbers.
09:27Even when the negativity is to this extreme?
09:30Oh, yeah.
09:32I believe, yes, yes.
09:35Because we remember past U.S. presidential election campaigns, there were ads that we
09:41think most notably of 1988, when there were ads about a black convict who'd killed, and
09:52that was deemed racist.
09:53But it was a veiled kind of message.
09:56Here there's no dog whistle.
09:57The gloves are off.
09:58Oh, yeah.
09:59In fact, if you remember the McCain campaign, they were testing in the state of Kansas,
10:08suggesting that John McCain had a black daughter.
10:14And in the state of Kansas, would that make any difference?
10:17I would imagine at that time they were probably testing the numbers as well to see if they
10:21could move the dial.
10:25So using Michael Furtick, using divisiveness, it's nothing new, or is it?
10:31Are we witnessing something that's never been seen before?
10:35Because it feels like that from this side of the Atlantic.
10:42Feels like that from this side of the Atlantic.
10:44I think that Europe doesn't have a lot left, but it does have condescension.
10:49And I think Europe does like to condescend to America and its political more and culture.
10:56And I do think that if you're not really paying very close attention to the major issues,
11:03you're going to pick up on some of the dog whistling and so forth.
11:06But actually.
11:07But this is no longer dog whistling.
11:08This is an unfiltered racist speech we're talking about.
11:11Let me finish.
11:12Yeah.
11:13Let me finish.
11:14The question is not whether the campaign is dark.
11:17The question is whether the world is in a dark moment.
11:21We are very, very close, if not already entered upon the Third World War.
11:28The United States has had the highest amount of illegal immigration in its history in the
11:34last four years.
11:35You can say that you like Biden.
11:37You can say you like Harris.
11:38You can say you like Trump.
11:40But I think we should be careful about journalistic accuracy and condescensions to the United States.
11:48By the way, just to correct a record, I've already caught three factual errors in the
11:54last few minutes just listening.
11:56Pennsylvania does not have the largest Puerto Rican population in America.
12:00It has the largest.
12:01I said the largest.
12:02It has the fourth largest.
12:03No, no, no.
12:04I did.
12:05I said the largest Puerto Rican population of the swing states.
12:09I said the swing states.
12:10It is correct of the swing states.
12:11Yes.
12:12Except unless you consider Florida still a swing state, which I don't.
12:15Florida is not a swing state this time around, at least, but yes.
12:19You know, I think that the way we talk about this does not really reflect the battle on
12:26the ground.
12:27The fact is that this comedian is getting a lot of attention, as your journalist did
12:31reflect.
12:33But the truth is that the United States, for the first time in its history, I believe,
12:39has two successive Democratic tickets, or political tickets of either party, where both
12:45the presidential candidate and the vice presidential candidate, first Biden-Harris, now Harris-Walls,
12:51have zero private sector experience in their careers.
12:54Zero.
12:55If you add Obama previously, he had two years of private sector experience, if I'm not mistaken.
13:01So in 140 years of work experience, approximately, in the world's most important and largest
13:05economy, you have candidates who have had almost no private capital experience, private
13:14sector experience.
13:16For the first time in a very long time, Republicans are carrying working class people.
13:20Think about that.
13:21The Democratic Party is not the party of the working class in this election.
13:25Think about that.
13:26You call it condescension, Michael Furtick.
13:27That's an enormous political story.
13:28Michael Furtick, you call it condescension.
13:29What we're trying to talk about is condescension for something that's a dog whistle, and I
13:34think we're covering the wrong topic.
13:35Excuse me.
13:36I think we are.
13:37But we're seeing outright racist remarks being made.
13:41We've heard the Republican candidate talking, you heard in that clip of Donald Trump in
13:45his speech talking about the fact that they're letting in criminals into the United States.
13:56You can say that's racist.
13:57You can say that's racist.
13:58You can say it certainly sounds like previously racist people.
13:59It just surprises people on this side of the Atlantic to hear that from a country built
14:03by immigrants.
14:04And I got to tell you something.
14:05I think that the lens through which Europe wants to see America is a lens of great condescension,
14:10which I think is unwarranted.
14:12And I think if you actually listen to the issues that these guys are talking about,
14:15they do not want illegal immigrants crossing into the United States.
14:19By the way, recently immigrated families feel more strongly about illegal immigration than
14:26longer term American native families.
14:30They feel more strongly about it statistically.
14:32So I think you're now assigning to a white guy, Donald Trump's obviously a white guy,
14:37who's obviously said a lot of really nasty stuff.
14:40He's a very nasty guy.
14:41Let's acknowledge that.
14:42But you're assigning a racist intent to him, but you're not simultaneously acknowledging
14:48that the people who support him who are not whites agree with him on this issue.
14:53Immigration is not a controversial issue in America.
14:56We saw examples of that in that report at the outset.
14:59Let me bring in Jamie Kerchick on this.
15:02Jamie, is this just a presidential election like any other, or is there something off
15:06in the United States?
15:09Well, regarding these accusations of fascism, it was actually a French philosopher, Jean-Francois
15:16Ravel, who observed during the Cold War in the 80s, I believe, when Ronald Reagan was
15:22president and Europeans were calling him a fascist, that the dark night of fascism is
15:27always descending in America, but it only lands in Europe.
15:32I mean, let's look at France.
15:35Let's look at Madame Le Pen.
15:37She's said some pretty nasty things in her career.
15:40Her father certainly has.
15:42Let's look at the AFD, the second biggest party in Germany, the alternative for Deutschland,
15:45a far-right party.
15:47They've certainly said, I mean, they've had leaders say that anyone crossing the border
15:51should be shot.
15:53Let's look at Viktor Orban in Hungary, whom, you know, sadly, Donald Trump looks to as
15:58a great leader.
16:00He's certainly responsible for saying nasty things about foreigners and other groups,
16:06by the way.
16:07But it doesn't take a lot of time to go across the European continent and find political
16:10leaders who've engaged in really nasty rhetoric, and so I think that these accusations of fascism
16:18being made by the Harris campaign—
16:19But none of the leaders that you've—
16:20I mean, it's not—
16:21None of the leaders that you've mentioned so far, Jamie, are the leaders of—
16:24Right.
16:25—of major powers.
16:26Here, we're talking about the—
16:28Sure.
16:29—post of most powerful person in the world.
16:32Of course.
16:33Yes, and look, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump.
16:37I haven't voted for him.
16:38I voted this morning, actually, and I did not vote for him.
16:40I'm no fan of his, and anyone can look up what I've written about him.
16:44But saying, merely stating the fact that criminals have come into this country through the southern
16:51border because of open border policies by the current administration, that's just a
16:56statement of fact.
16:57I don't believe that that's racist.
16:59And I also find these accusations somewhat silly because Donald Trump has diversified.
17:05He has racially diversified the Republican Party more than any leader, really, since
17:10George W. Bush, maybe even more than him.
17:12Donald Trump is expected to gain more, a larger percent of the black vote than any Republican
17:18candidate since Dwight Eisenhower.
17:21He's basically matching Harris.
17:23It's the he's 46, she's 49 for Latinos.
17:27So I trust the people of color who are voting for Donald Trump or intending to support him.
17:35I trust their instincts on whether or not, you know, he is an out-and-out racist or whether
17:40or not they're looking at other issues or causes.
17:41I have an audio issue with Washington.
17:44We're going to try to fix that quickly.
17:46Apologies for that, Jamie Kirchick.
17:49There's an audio issue there.
17:51Kerevan Ghorjasthani, how is it breaking down?
17:55We know it's very close.
17:56Is it about minorities?
17:57Because last week we devoted an entire show to the fact that there's more of a gender
18:03gap than anything else in this election.
18:06Jamie's on point when he says that there are more minorities voting for Donald Trump.
18:13How many of those are men?
18:14Absolutely.
18:15There's clearly, the demographics are clearly moving and we've seen it basically in all
18:20of the demographics.
18:21So to one point that was made, which is that the Republicans are becoming the working class
18:29party versus the Democrats.
18:32That is absolutely true.
18:33We're seeing that the higher educated tend to vote more for the Democrats now than they
18:39used to.
18:40There is the gender gap, as you mentioned, Kamala Harris has a huge lead among women,
18:46whether they're women of color, white women, educated, non-educated, that is also clear.
18:51And it's also clear that compared to the numbers of Joe Biden back in 2020, when you look at
18:58the demographics, whether it's African-Americans, Latinos, Asians, there is a gap between what
19:07Joe Biden made as numbers and what Kamala Harris's polling numbers suggest.
19:13She has lost it a little bit among African-Americans, for example.
19:17And there, as you mentioned, that gender gap does come into play because she seems to do
19:23much better among female voters of color rather than male.
19:29And if you add to that the age gap, she does much better with younger women and much worse
19:36with younger men.
19:37So all of these demographics are working together and there is not one that will outright make
19:43you win.
19:45The only thing that some strategists are pointing to is that if you look at these demographics,
19:52the one common denominator for the Democrats, the positive for the Democrats, is that, yes,
19:59they're losing in some of those demographics, but they are ahead and by a lot among demographics
20:05that are high propensity voters like women, like older voters, like educated voters, which
20:14is not the case for Donald Trump, for example.
20:17One strategist, and I can't remember his name, said that he'd rather have women a plus
20:2515 gap with women than have plus 10 with young men because women tend to vote a little bit
20:31more than younger men.
20:33But this is all in a very tight race.
20:37And you could say if you're losing in one demographic, you're gaining in the other.
20:41It doesn't really matter.
20:42But if it's decided with a few thousand votes in a few, a handful of states, it can make
20:49the difference.
20:50And that is why you're seeing both of the campaigns not only firing up their base, but
20:55also going after every single one of these demographics, because if they can win even
21:022000, 3000 votes in all of these demographics, that could tip the balance.
21:08All right.
21:09Let me ask you, Craig Tufte.
21:10I don't want to go into trying to predict who's going to win, because that seems like
21:16it's a perilous endeavor.
21:18But when you look at the data, has the United States changed or is it just about these two
21:26candidates?
21:27Probably both.
21:29I think that the candidates, obviously, again, I keep going back to numbers, OK?
21:37When you have internal polling that indicates that you're, are you there?
21:43I am there.
21:44It's my, it was my earpiece that was off earlier.
21:49Apologies to Jamie Kirchick, who I'll talk to afterward after this.
21:53Craig Tufte, go ahead.
21:57Go ahead, Craig Tufte and then Jamie Kirchick.
22:00My thought here is that basically it's going to get down to the ground game, OK?
22:08We can talk about issues, we can talk about themes, we can talk about directions that
22:14campaigns are taking or candidates are taking, but it's going to get down to the ground game,
22:20OK?
22:21Blocking and tackling, for lack of a better term.
22:23And I think that the, depending on who has the best ground game, is where the action's
22:28going to be.
22:30The other things that, as far as polling is concerned, the tracking, they'll be utilizing,
22:37obviously, direct mail, the campaigns, we'll be doing social media, all of those things
22:42that generate interest and hopefully turnout for their candidate.
22:47But the thing is, I believe that everything is data-driven.
22:52I think that what you're looking at, everybody can talk about issues, they can talk about,
22:58you know, things that have happened in the past or what's going to happen in the future
23:01or what someone said or what someone's surrogate said.
23:04Basically, when it gets down to the bottom line, it's going to be get out the vote, OK?
23:12I mean, that's the dirty part of the campaign.
23:15So get out the vote, Craig Tufte, just to illustrate for our viewers, does that mean
23:21actually getting an analog, physical human being to go and accompany someone to a polling
23:27station?
23:28Does that still work?
23:29You can do that.
23:30I've been part and parcel of campaigns that actually picked up people who requested rights
23:37to the polls, OK, but usually it's generated by phone banks, direct mail, other tactics
23:46that campaigns utilize in order to energize their base, OK?
23:51And so it's a matter of you've got to get the body to the poll if they haven't voted
23:55already.
23:56Now, Republicans historically have waited until Election Day to vote.
24:03That apparently is not the case now.
24:05I've heard anecdotal evidence of Republicans in various parts of the country who have already
24:13cast their vote, OK?
24:15You have a situation in the state of Washington, apparently, when they're burning up ballots
24:20now, which is kind of an interesting thing to happen.
24:24Yeah, we'll get to that point in a minute.
24:25Michael Furtick, let me ask you, because back in 2016, it was, it was, it took a couple
24:34of years for people to really, for it to sink in for the general public, this idea of micro-targeting.
24:40Some of what you just heard Craig Tufte touch upon.
24:45What's the difference between 2016 and 2024?
24:47I mean, this is an extremely motivated electorate.
24:52I think your correspondent noted that some demographics historically have voted in smaller
24:57numbers or bigger numbers than others.
24:58That's true.
24:59But this is a very motivated electorate.
25:00So I think President Trump in the last election received more votes than anyone else in history,
25:07except possibly for Biden in that election, maybe, maybe even more than Hillary did in
25:12a popular vote in the election, which he won by electoral vote.
25:16Fifty million, almost 50 million votes have already been cast in this election as of today.
25:21That's an extraordinary number and the highest ever in early voting.
25:26And it's happening in both parties this year.
25:29Micro-targeting is definitely an exceptional tool.
25:32You can get down to the sort of the atomic level with one person, the one person you
25:37want to reach.
25:39I do think that the things that we are talking about now are much more useful to discuss.
25:45Americans are sincerely interested in who's going to solve inflation.
25:50They are sincerely interested in who is going to solve immigration.
25:53They are sincerely interested in which president is more mentally stable.
25:58By the way, they believe that Trump is stronger on inflation and immigration, but weaker on
26:02mental stability.
26:04They're sincerely interested in who is better to face off Xi Jinping and this axis of nastiness
26:13across the world that has emerged, and they think Trump is better suited than that.
26:17They are sincerely interested in abortion rights, and they think that Harris is stronger
26:21on abortion rights.
26:22So these are things that we don't need to condescend to the American voters.
26:27We can give them the credence that they deserve, that they are, generally speaking, almost
26:34all of them, motivated by what they believe this candidate or that candidate will do
26:38for them and for the country, what they believe this candidate stands for and stands against.
26:45I think Harris's strongest point right now, if you like it or not, is that she's not Trump.
26:50She does not have that many natural constituencies of her own.
26:53She does not have a long history of leading populations around the country and building
26:57up constituencies of her own.
26:59The polling shows that mostly she's not Trump.
27:02People really feel strongly about Trump.
27:04They like him or they hate him.
27:06And that is the history of everybody who knows him up close and from afar, including the
27:11people up close.
27:12They know that he is both his strongest asset and his own strongest liability.
27:16I think that technology has been proven to be very powerful in this race, as it will
27:20in the last race, but that is not especially new in 2020.
27:23So Jamie Kirchhoff, let me ask you, Kamala Harris's so-called closing argument speech
27:29taking place this Tuesday at the Ellipse, the same location at Washington's National
27:33Mall where on January 6th, 2021, Donald Trump told his supporters to fight like hell before
27:38they stormed the Capitol.
27:40When you're talking about what energizes each side, as we've just heard right now in this
27:45discussion from both Michael and Craig, is that a smart move going there today?
27:53I do actually think so, because January 6th was an event that the vast majority of Americans
27:59thought was a disgrace, and I include a lot of Republicans and some Trump supporters in
28:05that analysis.
28:06And I think going there to remind people of that event is a smart move on the part of
28:13her campaign.
28:14Now, I don't know what she's going to say.
28:15I haven't read a script of that speech, but I'm sure it will lay heavily on calling Donald
28:23Trump a fascist, these themes that we've been hearing over the past couple of days.
28:27Because as Michael said, if you look at the issues, Donald Trump leads on most issues,
28:33on immigration, on inflation, on foreign policy even.
28:37He's leading on most issues.
28:38And so her best argument, seeing that she can't really make an argument about the border,
28:44because she was vice president while this all happened.
28:47She can't make an argument about inflation because she presided over it.
28:50She can't make a positive argument on so many of the policy issues.
28:55She really has to resort to the personality, and she's going to have to say that this man
28:59is volatile, he is a hater, he only cares about himself, he's a scam artist, and we're
29:06all familiar with these arguments.
29:10And it's really just a question of whether or not she'll be able to win the election
29:14based on those arguments, because the vast majority of Americans have decided who they're
29:17voting for.
29:19They've made their choice.
29:20There are some people who are in the middle, and they can be persuaded.
29:25And her campaign has decided that portraying Donald Trump as a fascist, which is a word
29:31that she has used, on stage, on camera, they have clearly decided that that is the best
29:37argument that they have.
29:38I consider it frankly a kind of, well, what we in America would use a sports term, a Hail
29:43Mary pass in football.
29:45It's when you just throw the ball, and you hope that someone catches it.
29:49And I really think that that's what the equivalent of this effort is on her part, this late in
29:55the campaign.
29:56All right.
29:57A chip and charge move, as we would say, for soccer or football on this side of the Atlantic.
30:02Ketavan Ghorjasdhani, you remember last week there was this Donald Trump accusing the British
30:10Labour Party of foreign meddling.
30:14Labour's winning formula was that they let the Conservatives defeat themselves in the
30:20general election.
30:22Is Kamala Harris light on substance?
30:25Look, she has, whether you like the policies or not, she has put out her policies.
30:32I agree that, yes, she's never going to be able to erase the last four years when it
30:39comes to immigration or the economy.
30:42That doesn't mean she hasn't put out plans and said what she would do.
30:46But it's not resonating enough with voters that she can continue to insist on that.
30:52She is going to likely insist on the theme of they are coming after your rights and focus
31:00on abortion, because that is the winning issue for the Democrats and for her personally.
31:06Because if there is one topic on which she is not only better in polling, but also better
31:15at talking about than Joe Biden was even back in 2020, it is about abortion.
31:21She has, even when she was VP and I was following her, those were the speeches where she was
31:26the best.
31:27So she is likely going to insist on abortion.
31:30One thing I would say on the messaging of January 6 and the danger to democracy, I agree
31:36with the fact that using the term fascist is not what's going to work, however.
31:42And one of the guests said that it was a way of reminding people of what happened on January
31:486.
31:49I think that is also the strategy here.
31:51And one thing that has to be said is there are very few undecided people at this point
31:57and most undecided people, if you listen to to them a little bit, they tend to be decided
32:05on the person they would vote for if they went to vote.
32:08It's mostly undecided at whether you go to vote or not.
32:13And I'll finish on that, which is that the theme of the danger to democracy, when you
32:19are like Kamala Harris trying to build a tent of anti-Trumpers, the only common denominator
32:26between the progressives on the left of the Democratic Party and the never Trumpers like
32:31Liz Cheney is the threat to democracy.
32:34It is not the economic policy of Kamala Harris.
32:37It is not abortion.
32:38It is not all of these other themes.
32:41That is the one common thing that they have in that big tent that she is hoping will come
32:47out to vote for her and will be enough for her to get into the White House.
32:50Yeah.
32:51As we're saying, if it's all about energizing the base and every little bit helps and there's
32:57a sophisticated means of gauging the voters, there's a big argument over an old school
33:03media, an 11th hour non-endorsement making waves.
33:07Washington Post owner, that's a newspaper, Jeff Bezos, the same who's the billionaire
33:13boss of Amazon, breaking with tradition, refusing to choose between Harris and Trump.
33:18He ordered the paper's editorial staff to rewrite its column on this.
33:23More than 200,000 furious subscribers have since canceled their subscription.
33:28Bezos himself penning a piece where he argues that the newspaper endorsements don't sway
33:34voters.
33:35What presidential endorsements actually do is create a perception of bias, a perception
33:39of non-independence, ending them as a principled decision and it's the right one.
33:47Critics, though, point to what he says insists is purely a coincidence of the calendar.
33:53On the day it was pulled, executives from his aerospace company happened to be meeting
33:58with Donald Trump the same day.
34:02He argues, Michael Furtick, that he didn't even know the meeting was happening.
34:08Your thoughts on this?
34:10First of all, the timing of his decision or of his announcement was terrible.
34:14He acknowledged that.
34:15I'm talking about Bezos.
34:16He said it in his own op-ed.
34:17He should have made this decision or announcement a year ago, six months ago, nine months ago,
34:21even a month ago, frankly, anything sort of better than last week.
34:24It was a disastrous timing.
34:26Jeff Bezos is financially sort of impregnable, untouchable.
34:30He's going to be a mega billionaire whether Trump wins or Harris wins.
34:35I do think that, I do think it is a restoration of a tradition that The Washington Post used
34:41to have.
34:42They used to not endorse candidates in the presidential elections.
34:45But I do think that he is right about one important thing, that the sort of traditional
34:49media institutions have lost credibility with Americans anyway.
34:54I'd also say in Europe, too, but with Americans anyway, for a lot of reasons.
34:57One, The Washington Post and others sort of embraced the messaging that turned out to
35:01be really deceptive, I'm going to use that word advisedly, deceptive by the CDC and other
35:08health organizations in the United States and by the White House when it came to health
35:13officials across the United States when it came to the coronavirus pandemic.
35:18And that was a huge seismic shift in now the perceived understanding of the American people
35:23of how they should and should not trust media institutions.
35:28Journalists lost a lot of credibility for a lot of reasons, and deservedly so.
35:32And what institutions like The Washington Post continuously reveal their liberal biases.
35:38By the way, I grew up a very democratic liberal guy.
35:43I had to see this for myself, but it's obvious, plain as day, that it's true, then they actually
35:49lose the credibility in the long term, in the long run.
35:51Bezos is planning for the longer term and is investing for a future in which The Washington
35:54Post should regain its trustworthiness.
35:57And by the way, just to be clear, there is no, I'm often asked by European media especially,
36:03whether kind of the tech bros, whatever they are, whoever they are, this concept called
36:07the tech bro, have changed from sort of Democrats to Trump or from Harris to Trump in this election,
36:13whether Bezos' decision this week is an example of that.
36:16I think the answer is no.
36:17First of all, most of Silicon Valley still supports Harris.
36:21Most dollars from Silicon Valley still support Harris, and that will continue to be true
36:25for a while.
36:26And there is no kind of monolith.
36:28There is no clubhouse where the tech bros go, you know, drink a beer and say, hey, let's
36:33do X or Y.
36:34These are people in constant competition and in fierce competitive discourse with one another
36:39with very many competing interests.
36:41And I urge you to take people seriously about what they believe.
36:45Almost always in my experience, talking to people up close, when they say they want something
36:49for America politically, they sincerely want it.
36:52They do not want it because it's going to lie in their pockets.
36:55In the same way you do, in the same way I do, the same way your mom does and your sister
36:59does, and your brother does.
37:00They want something sincerely and they support it.
37:03And I think you should give them that credibility in this case as well.
37:06Jamie Kerchick, there was the so-called Gilded Age in the United States at the turn of the
37:1120th century, when the billionaires who, I guess they were then millionaires, I don't
37:16know what the exact numbers were, who influenced U.S. politics were magnets of-
37:20Robber barons.
37:21Robber barons.
37:22There you go.
37:23Were in things like the railroad industry, the steel industry, nascent oil industry.
37:31Today the new gold is data.
37:33So this argument over which way, how much Silicon Valley has sway over politics is an
37:40important one.
37:42Yes, but I just want to touch on the newspaper question, the question of the endorsement
37:48of the Washington Post.
37:49Because I'm a journalist, I'm a career journalist, and this matters a lot to me.
37:54The Washington Post has lost half its readership in four years.
37:58It loses about $100 million a year.
38:01As Jeff Bezos noted in his editorial today, his op-ed last night, the mainstream media
38:09in this country has, Americans trust it less than they do Congress.
38:14It's one of the least trusted institutions in the United States, and that is a relatively
38:19recent development.
38:21And I would say it really took a precipitous fall in the early years of the Trump administration
38:26because that was when the mainstream media decided that they were not going to report
38:29the news.
38:30They were going to take an advocacy position to defend democracy against this particular
38:36candidate and his particular political movement.
38:38And you see that in the downfall of the subscription numbers at the Washington Post and other mainstream
38:45media outlets.
38:46And the fact that 200,000 digital subscribers have now quit, they've canceled their subscription
38:52to the Washington Post.
38:54And the reason for that is because since 2016, they have been led to believe that the Washington
39:00Post, this paper that they loved, was basically MSNBC on paper.
39:05That's what they were led to believe.
39:06And now there's a new owner who, belatedly in my opinion, this is very late, it may be
39:12too little too late, he's finally decided that he has to save this newspaper.
39:17And the way to do it is by making it more objective and making it more neutral.
39:21But it is, Jamie, it is a conundrum because you're, again, it's the there's good people
39:28on both sides argument.
39:30And that's what a lot of the editorial department at the Washington Post is angry about.
39:35Can I just say, first of all, my attitude towards Trump from the beginning, I'm not
39:41both sides.
39:42I'm going to tell you what I'm going to tell you, Jamie Kirchhoff first, go ahead.
39:45Can I finish?
39:46Can I say something?
39:47Yeah.
39:48Can I say something?
39:49The truth about Donald Trump is bad enough that you don't need to make anything up about
39:55him.
39:56Okay?
39:57You don't need to make up that there was a Russia conspiracy to elect him president.
39:59You don't need to make up that he's a fascist.
40:01All these accusations against him, these outlandish, dramatic, you know, sentimental, ridiculous
40:07claims that have been made about this man, it only helps him.
40:10And that's kind of the reason why he's probably going to win re-election next week.
40:14And so if I have one piece of advice to my colleagues in the media, it's just to understand
40:19the truth is bad enough about this guy.
40:21You don't need to exaggerate or lie about him.
40:24Craig Tufte, will you still be reading those legacy newspapers?
40:30Is that part of where you get your information?
40:32And how are voters getting their information?
40:38You're bringing up a very good point.
40:41You have so much social media out there right now.
40:46X, for instance, Joe Rogan had 93 million people watching that podcast with Trump.
40:55Okay?
40:56That's huge.
40:57And it's not only his podcasts, there are other things that are going on via social
41:03media that are generating news, that are correcting and also misinforming a lot of individuals.
41:10Yes, the mainstream media is no longer there.
41:16Ketavan Ghojasati.
41:17One thing that is a little bit contradictory, when you look at the changing landscape of
41:22media, and we saw and you mentioned Joe Rogan, but there were this sort of famous podcast.
41:28Exactly.
41:29But this sort of the podcast election, as it's been called, because, you know, you had
41:33Call Her Daddy, you had the other types of podcasts to sort of go to a certain demographic.
41:41What's interesting is that the criticism that there is about the mainstream media, which
41:45is that they are a mouthpiece for the Democrats, if it's the Washington Post, or a mouthpiece
41:51for the Republicans, if you're talking about Fox News.
41:54When you look at where the people are getting their information, they're increasingly getting
41:58their information from people that they agree with, from very opinionated podcasts, very
42:04opinionated social media accounts.
42:08And so what they're rejecting in the mainstream media is actually what they're going after
42:15in a different form.
42:16So it's very interesting to see how this is changing.
42:19And I think we all agree that a big part of the issue with the question of not endorsing
42:27was really the timing, because there are plenty of countries in the world that don't endorse,
42:32where media don't endorse leaders in elections.
42:35They don't choose a side.
42:37And I think that that does, in a way, feed in this thing that you are on one side or
42:42the other, because people don't necessarily make the difference between opinion and the
42:48actual news.
42:50But in itself, questioning the idea of should we as mainstream media or not mainstream media
42:59actually endorse a candidate is a good question to ask.
43:03The sad thing is, I don't remember who said it, but it was like if it had been done a
43:07year ago, that would have made more sense, because you just say from the get go at the
43:12start of the campaign, we're not going to endorse and that's it.
43:15And as Michael was saying, he recognized it himself.
43:18Peter van Gorgestani, I want to thank you.
43:20I wish we had more time.
43:22We're only skimming the surface on this one.
43:25Jamie Kirchick and Craig Tufte in Washington, Michael Furtick in Rome, thank you for being
43:30with us here in the France 24 debate.
43:33Thanks a lot.
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