- 2 years ago
Jobe Bellingham transfer latest plus Phil and James' summer predictions
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00:00Hello everybody, welcome to the Raw podcast. Phil and James here. Phil, how's things today?
00:26I was going to say, it doesn't really feel like July in the pre-season. Fixtures near and desert, but never mind.
00:42I think France will beat Spain, even though Spain have been the best team in the tournament and I love watching them. I think France will grind out.
00:54England? I think England will beat Netherlands. I've not been hugely impressed with the Netherlands, and although I've not been particularly impressed with England either, I think the best defensive teams tend to go through.
01:09So I fancy France and England for what I don't think will be a very exciting final from what we've seen in this tournament so far.
01:18You've put me on the spot there. This is going to be great for people who listen on Thursday and Friday and are preparing for Spain, Netherlands, Euros.
01:27I think France will probably grind it out as well. I haven't been too impressed with the Dutch so far, so I'd probably back England, but you just never know.
01:34Tournament football, it's very exciting. Then we have South Shields and Gateshead on Saturday. The footballing feast continues this summer, Phil.
01:44I think it's always a good one for fans, isn't it? I enjoyed it last year. It was a good day.
01:53I think it's nice for the club to be very much out there in the local football community as well.
01:59It's always an exciting day because the way they split the squad, I think it means you're guaranteed to see loads of exciting young players.
02:06I think that's always a really cool thing. I remember last year we were at South Shields and Trey Ogunsuyi.
02:13Did he crash one off the crossbar, I think? I thought it was a brilliant save or something.
02:17He hit the bar within about three seconds of being on the pitch.
02:22I like the games because I think it's always really nice to see youngsters in that sort of senior environment.
02:27It's a really nice glimpse of the future. Obviously, it's got added interest this weekend because it's the first time we're going to see
02:35Lebris' input, if you like. Obviously, it's very early days and it's not going to be the team that faces Cardiff on the first day of the season.
02:43But there will absolutely be some clues because if you read what he's been saying,
02:48if you look at what Luke O'Neill was saying in the club media last week, from day one pretty much he's been really clear on how he wants the team to play.
02:56A huge amount of the training has been focused on his philosophy and his tactical approach.
03:02So, although it won't be the finished article, I think we will definitely get some pretty early clues on Saturday.
03:06So, I think it will genuinely be a really interesting one to follow.
03:10I like a good doubleheader as well. You don't often get to say that you've watched two Sunderland games in one day.
03:16So, it's a bit of a novelty in that regard.
03:20Transfers, Phil, we should probably talk about. You had a story today on Alan Brown, former Preston North End,
03:26very experienced Championship midfielder, Republic of Ireland international as well.
03:32What is the latest regarding that?
03:35Yeah, there's obviously a story on the Echo and on my Twitter page, which people can go and look into.
03:41But pretty straightforward really. Brown is a free agent. He was offered a three-year deal by Preston earlier this year.
03:47They said it was basically, well their manager Ryan Lowe is on record saying it was the best contract we've ever offered.
03:53Understand he's had a lot of interest from elsewhere in the Championship, also from Turkey.
03:59You don't know where he's going to go yet, but my understanding is that the Sunderland are very keen.
04:04He's been up to Sunderland. He's had pretty positive talks with the club.
04:08And so, while it's not a done deal, it's one that potentially could happen.
04:12It is an interesting one. Obviously, we know Lebris and Speakman both spoke last week at his first press conference
04:17about how the club were looking for that little bit of Championship experience.
04:21But if it gets done, and it's a big if, for me it's a big box ticked earlier in the summer.
04:28Brown is a defensive midfielder. He's very energetic. He's very combative.
04:32He likes to get around the pitch. He's got an eye for goal as well.
04:34But I think if you had a wish list for most Sunderland fans at the start of the summer,
04:39an experienced Championship midfielder, I think would have been very, very, very high up there.
04:44Probably after a striker, if we're honest, that would be number one.
04:47But I think this kind of signing would very much be next on the list.
04:51And I think there's pretty clear indications that Sunderland understand there's a need for that kind of player.
04:57It's been an interesting form of Sheffield United midfielder, Oliver Norwood.
05:01From my understanding, and again, these things can change very quickly, which I'm sure people appreciate,
05:06it sounds like this Brown one is more advanced than that.
05:09But we'll obviously wait and see how that shakes out.
05:12There can be a lot of twists and turns, especially with three agents, because they get so much interest
05:16and there's always a chance someone will come in and sort of blow you out of the water.
05:19But yeah, my initial understanding and my initial feeling is that this is quite an ambitious move, actually.
05:26And it's a little bit of an indicator that, you know, while the strategy isn't going to change generally
05:30at Sunderland this summer, there is a little bit of flexibility in play here.
05:33Because make no mistake, if they get this over the line, although he's a free agent,
05:38this wouldn't be a cheap deal by any stretch of the imagination.
05:43I like this for a number of reasons.
05:45I don't know if you've had a chance to look into it yet, Phil,
05:48but his injury record is absolutely superb, or lack of an injury record, really.
05:53Since Preston were promoted from League One at the end of the 2014-15 season,
05:58I think Brown has only played less than 40 times twice in these sort of 1, 2, 3, 4,
06:05I think about 10 seasons since then.
06:08One was 39 games, all appearances, the other was 35.
06:11He's generally fit, he generally makes over 40 appearances a season
06:16in all competitions for Preston North End.
06:20We saw that was a massive problem with Corey Evans and Bradley Dack, wasn't it?
06:23While Corey Evans contributed to Sunderland and was good when fit,
06:28when he was fit it was few and far between,
06:31and Dack was a similar issue that I think he only ended up playing 16 or 17 times for Sunderland.
06:36It makes sense in that regard as well.
06:38A good age as well, 29, but has 414 total appearances across his career.
06:43It's a very, very positive deal that seems to make a lot of sense, if it comes off that is.
06:48Yeah, I agree and I think that's a really good point.
06:50I think it's a point we've made a couple of times on this podcast actually,
06:53which is actually the main issue last season wasn't necessarily
06:57that there weren't enough experienced players,
06:59it's just that they were never on the pitch, they were never available.
07:02And I think naturally, if you want your experienced players to be big voices in the dressing room,
07:06I think that's quite difficult when they're injured a lot.
07:09I can, you know, loads of people around the academy,
07:13I spoke to loads of people who said what a good character Bradley Dack was,
07:16how good he was with the younger players, how good his energy was,
07:19but you're never going to get the best version of him as sort of a leader
07:22and a dressing room voice if he's not on the pitch regularly.
07:26And I think if you think about it, it makes total sense, doesn't it?
07:28Because you would feel a little, I don't think you're going to be calling people out
07:32or demanding this or demanding that if you're not in the team.
07:35So I think that is an important point.
07:38I don't want to jinx either this deal or his injury record,
07:43so I'm going to proceed tentatively.
07:46But yeah, I think it's fair to say that we're cautiously optimistic
07:52in terms of after a dismal end to last season
07:55and a tricky start to the summer,
07:57there's been a few really good things happened at the club
08:00in terms of the Chris Rigg deal,
08:02you know, the improvements that we're starting to see in retail,
08:06albeit still obviously very early days.
08:09And I think if they can get this done,
08:11and let's, you know, let's vary it out a bit.
08:14It's not Alan Brown and it ends up being somebody else.
08:16I think the sign that there's a clear concerted effort
08:19to address what was an obvious shortcoming last summer,
08:22last season, sorry, is a definite positive.
08:24And I know, I think that's a positive for fans
08:26whether or not this actually comes off.
08:28I think that's probably the sort of the best way to describe it.
08:32No, absolutely.
08:33And it's pleasing as well,
08:34because I think like a lot of fans over the past three or four windows
08:39have maybe thought that they were seeing something different
08:42to the football club in terms of what Sunderland needed to bring in.
08:46But now it just seems like there's a little bit more alignment
08:49to use the buzzword of the day.
08:52And, you know, these sort of things make sense
08:55as, you know, what Sunderland fans have been calling for for a while.
08:59We'll stay on the transfer theme, Phil.
09:01We're going to run through some predictions later on as well.
09:05But there was a little bit of transfer news yesterday
09:07from Fabrizio Romano.
09:09Joe Bellingham looks set to stay at Sunderland,
09:11obviously interest from Brentford, Crystal Palace,
09:13I think, pushed quite hard.
09:15For me, Phil, that one just seems to make a whole load of sense.
09:18Still at a very tentative age in his development.
09:21We forget that he started the season as a 17-year-old,
09:24over 40 appearances last season for Sunderland.
09:27Did look a little tired at times,
09:29but still chipped in, I think, with eight goal contributions.
09:32It might have been eight goals, actually.
09:34I'm not sure what he did assist-wise,
09:36but possibly even in a double check.
09:39Yeah, for me, it just makes sense for him to stay and grow
09:41for another season and then reassess in the summer.
09:43I don't feel like there's any reason to rush this.
09:46It seems like Jude Greaves,
09:48Joel Beaven, sorry,
09:50I'm in the habit of referencing Jude at the moment.
09:53Yeah, I think there's a couple of things on this.
09:55One is, and this isn't me directing the information at all,
09:59which I have absolutely no doubt is correct,
10:01but it is July 9th,
10:03so there are almost four months to go
10:05and you can make a decision
10:08and have the clearest vision
10:10and then somebody comes in with an absolutely insane offer
10:12on deadline day in September
10:14and everything gets upended.
10:16So that's the one slight, sort of,
10:18you know, that's the one slight asterisk I'd put on this.
10:21And actually, when we spoke to Christian Speightman last week,
10:23he said, I'm not going to go,
10:25this was before this news had sort of developed or emerged,
10:27and he said, I'm not going to go into individuals
10:29because the market can be crazy
10:31and things can chop and change so quickly.
10:33So I don't think we should
10:35say for certain
10:37that a line has been drawn under this,
10:39but hopefully, you know, it certainly seems
10:41like the direction of travel is very much that
10:43Joe wants to stick.
10:45I completely agree with you.
10:47I felt that this summer was too soon for him.
10:49I said that, you know, that was my opinion
10:51as soon as Romano first brought the news
10:53of Crystal Palace's interest earlier this summer.
10:55I think for me, there's an example
10:57that I would use,
10:59would be Jack Clark last summer.
11:01So now obviously I know there are huge differences
11:03in their stories. Clark obviously has already had
11:05some moves that didn't work out and had to rebuild
11:07his career. He was a bit older.
11:09But last summer, Burnley, we know,
11:11were putting in bids for Jack Clark and wanting to sign Jack Clark.
11:13And actually what Jack Clark
11:15felt and where him and Sunderland sort of
11:17agreed in the conversations he had with Tony Mowbray
11:19was, you're potentially going
11:21into a Burnley side where you might not yet
11:23be guaranteed to play every week.
11:25And therefore there's a danger that
11:27a year down the line, you're pretty much back where you started.
11:29You might not have been a regular at the Premier League.
11:31You don't know what Burnley, as it happened,
11:33ended up getting relegated.
11:35And the feeling then was
11:37if you have another full season
11:39at Championship level,
11:41the perception of you is going to change if you do well.
11:43Because then you're potentially going to a Premier League team
11:45pretty much as a starter.
11:47You might be able to lift
11:49the kind of clubs that want to sign you.
11:51It might not be those sort of promoted teams anymore.
11:53It might actually be that established
11:55mid-table team.
11:57And you go there knowing that you've got a much better chance of playing
11:59regularly because you're now a more experienced player
12:01and you've obviously got a stronger track record.
12:03If Clark goes
12:05this summer, which
12:07we might talk about later, I'm not sure, but seems
12:09still very possible.
12:11He, I think, will be going to
12:13a more established Premier League club than
12:15Burnley were this time last year.
12:17And I actually think he'll be going with a much stronger chance of playing regularly.
12:19And for me, that's the perfect example
12:21for Joe Bellingham.
12:23If he has another year where he plays
12:2545 games again and he gets 10 goals,
12:27my word, he is going to have
12:29strong offers at that point.
12:31He'll be 19. Premier League clubs are going to be queuing up.
12:33And I think there will then
12:35be really strong playing
12:37opportunities for him in the Premier League if
12:39Sunderland have not been promoting themselves.
12:41And who knows, let's be optimistic at this stage
12:43of the season.
12:45So for me, it would have been
12:47a year too soon for Sunderland as well. I think they know
12:49that if he plays another, as I've just said,
12:5140 games and scores 10 goals,
12:53I think they know the bids are going to be double next summer.
12:55And at that stage, if you haven't been
12:57promoted, Job's had another brilliant season,
12:59you've got a huge offer on the table,
13:01and Job is potentially going to
13:03the Premier League to play pretty much every week,
13:05then maybe at that point you do shake hands.
13:07And you say, listen, this has worked well
13:09for everyone. So, you know, thanks for
13:11your efforts.
13:13So I do think it's a sensible decision
13:15if that's how it plays out. I think it's best
13:17for all parties. And I agree with you.
13:19I think it's weird because you sometimes
13:21see on social media and stuff,
13:23people say, or if his surname
13:25wasn't Bellingham,
13:27would it be this much hype? I actually
13:29see it the other way. If he was
13:31Job Smith and he
13:33played 44 games, scored
13:35seven goals in the Championship at 18,
13:37shown the promise he had in a number of different
13:39positions, shown that he could potentially be
13:41a genuine number nine in the future,
13:43I think people would be absolutely raving
13:45about him. And yes, he was overplayed
13:47at times last season. There were definitely times
13:49where his level dipped. We all saw that. There was definitely
13:51some signs of fatigue. But that
13:53doesn't change my opinion of what a huge
13:55talent he is. In some
13:57ways, I actually think the Bellingham
13:59connection is sort of
14:01skewed how good he actually is for his age
14:03because he's always been compared with this, let's
14:05be honest, absolutely generational
14:07talent.
14:09I really rate him highly.
14:11Obviously, last year, he probably did need to be
14:13taken out of the team. At times, that
14:15didn't happen. But he came through that
14:17bad period, contributed for Sunderland really well.
14:19You know, at times, playing under
14:21difficult circumstances, the managerial
14:23merry-go-round, the Mick Bailey or
14:25Sunderland's poor form towards the end of the season,
14:27I think it will have strengthened him. I think
14:29he'll come back even better next season.
14:31The million-dollar question, actually, Phil,
14:33is just thinking back to
14:35Lebris' press conference.
14:37He hinted at Job, didn't he?
14:39Where do you think... I know I'm asking
14:41you a sort of second guess here, but
14:43I'm just wondering where Lebris actually
14:45sees Job's... I could see
14:47it's testament, really,
14:49but I could see Lebris looking
14:51at him and going, right, he's a No. 9. We're having
14:53him up there. We're going to get him the ball.
14:55He's technical. He can turn. We're going to teach
14:57him how to be a proper striker. We're going to get him
14:59to make runs in behind. He's athletic.
15:01We'll get him to run the channels, you know,
15:03all that sort of stuff. But I could also see
15:05Lebris looking at him and thinking, right, he's
15:07playing as a No. 8.
15:09He's physical. He's big. He can control
15:11the ball. He can pass the ball. And I could also see
15:13him as a No. 10 as well.
15:15It's a really, really interesting
15:17question.
15:19It'll probably put him left
15:21back or something.
15:23We'll do
15:25the classic Sunderland thing and convert it to
15:27a right back.
15:29He can join the Legion of
15:31Sunderland. I don't know how many films we've ended up with a right back.
15:33Proper Sunderland heritage.
15:35No, it's a really interesting question. And again, when we spoke
15:37at the start about Saturday, it's actually going to be really interesting
15:39because these are all these first little clues
15:41and nothing will be sort of final.
15:43We'll have all these little interesting sort of clues
15:45about the way forward. I'm going to make
15:47just a total guess. And like you say,
15:49it's pure speculation because it's fun
15:51and that's what the summer's for. Listening to Lebris
15:53when he spoke to us about his preferred
15:55formation and he said 4-3-3
15:57in possession, 4-4-2 out of possession.
15:59I wonder.
16:01My prediction is I
16:03reckon Job is going to be
16:05a bit of a box-to-box
16:078-slash-10. So if you think about
16:094-4-2 out of possession, what that basically means
16:11is you're going to press very, very aggressively
16:13because you want to get a player on each of the opposition
16:15centre-arcs. I mean, that's perfect for
16:17Job, isn't it? Because of his athleticism,
16:19his physicality,
16:21his energy. So I
16:23kind of see him potentially being that sort of
16:25support striker, if you like,
16:27backing up in terms of the pressing.
16:29The fact that he can get into the box, he's got
16:31an eye for goal, he can score from the edge of the box.
16:33I wonder if that's maybe, from what
16:35Lebris has said, I kind of wonder if that's
16:37the best position for him. I think
16:39the only question mark over him as a 10
16:41in the pass last season has been
16:43he probably doesn't offer you the creativity that you
16:45get from Pritchard. Pritchard
16:47is very, very good at picking out those little passes
16:49on the edge of the box, those little one-twos.
16:51We didn't see as much as that
16:53from Job last season.
16:55But if Sunderland are going
16:57to play a really, really strong, counter-attacking,
16:59high-press game,
17:01then I think that maybe will be
17:03the position for Job. But I said it
17:05towards the end of last season, as it stands right now,
17:07personally, I'd be looking to play him up front
17:09because I think he's Sunderland's best striker.
17:11I think recently he showed some really good signs,
17:13but he looked to me like he looked more
17:15comfortable playing out wide.
17:17I'm not sold on that one either way, but
17:19I'm going to make a prediction that Lebris
17:21maybe sees him as a really aggressive
17:238-10.
17:25But yeah, it's going to be
17:27interesting to see how that shakes out.
17:29Let's move on to transfer
17:31predictions. I'll start, Phil will start
17:33at the bottom, so to speak,
17:35and work upwards.
17:37Mine is pretty simple, really, pretty straightforward.
17:39I reckon Matty Young is going to head out on loan
17:41to an AFL club.
17:43I would be surprised if that didn't happen.
17:45Obviously, we've spoken about it before, though, Phil.
17:47The caveat to that is he'll probably be involved in pre-season.
17:49Regis Lebris will probably have a look at him.
17:51That does relate to the
17:53Anthony Paterson ongoing story
17:55as well, and I'll
17:57move my prediction onto that. I don't
17:59think Anthony Paterson leaves.
18:01I think Anthony Paterson will stay,
18:03and I think Matty Young will go out on loan.
18:05Potentially Adam Richardson as well,
18:07but that one could get done after
18:09the transfer window
18:11because I'd expect him to go to National League.
18:13There's the option Dan Cameron
18:15might go out on loan at some point as well.
18:17Robin Nicholls, the academy manager, referenced that
18:19when he signed his professional deal.
18:21I find the goalkeeping situation at the club
18:23fascinating, but yeah, Matty Young to
18:25go out on loan. I think Anthony Paterson
18:27will stay for another season.
18:29As you mentioned, though, Phil,
18:31there's always the danger
18:33that the transfer window is young,
18:35and if big money did
18:37come in for Paterson, then Sunderland could be faced
18:39with an interesting decision, having now
18:41signed Simon Moore, who's a very
18:43capable backup and could play
18:45as first choice in a championship
18:47team, you would assume, having done
18:49it for so long with Coventry. What are yours
18:51or what are your thoughts on that, firstly?
18:53Yeah,
18:55I agree. It's probably
18:57quite thoughtful for the listener, but I agree with you totally
18:59on all of that. I think that the thing about
19:01the Paterson one for me is,
19:03listen, Paterson could go for good
19:05money to be a Premier League
19:07number two tomorrow. I absolutely
19:09don't doubt that, and I wouldn't be surprised if
19:11Sunderland Field bids for him at some point over
19:13the window, but I just think
19:15it actually goes a little bit back to what I was saying
19:17about Bellingham and Clark.
19:19I don't think Paterson needs to rush
19:21that. The main thing for Paterson
19:23is to be playing regular senior football. I don't
19:25think there's any need for
19:27him to go to a Premier League club, whether it be one
19:29of the big Premier League clubs or a mid-table Premier League
19:31club, without knowing that he's going to
19:33play regularly. And Sunderland,
19:35we should say, are in an incredibly strong position
19:37with Paterson. He's got four years left on his contract,
19:39so there is absolutely no
19:41rush for them to sell Paterson.
19:43You know,
19:45fair enough, if a club comes in and says
19:47to Paterson, you're going to be your number
19:49two this year, but over the course of
19:51the next three, four years, we're going to make you our
19:53definite number one. You're going to play all the cup games.
19:55If you're in Europe, you can play the whatever.
19:57Then maybe that might change it, but I'd be
19:59surprised. My prediction at the moment
20:01is that Paterson stays,
20:03Moores is number two,
20:05Young goes out on loan at the AFL,
20:07probably Adam Ritchie's in the National League
20:09because, obviously, in those scenarios,
20:11you can recall them pretty quickly after
20:13the transfer window, as long as they're not to an AFL
20:15club. So that seems to me like the ideal scenario.
20:17The other
20:19prediction I would make is, I mean, if Paterson goes,
20:21I think they will definitely spend money on another
20:23goalkeeper. I don't think there's any way
20:25Simon Moore,
20:27I don't for a second see him as signed
20:29as a potential number one if Paterson leaves.
20:31I don't see that. I think if Paterson went,
20:33I think they'd have to go back into the market and
20:35spend some money. But
20:37I don't see Paterson going, obviously
20:39with all the obvious caveats that
20:41strange things can happen.
20:43No, fair enough. And just as a little
20:45aside, Phil, I think it's something
20:47we've discussed briefly in private,
20:49but do you think perhaps Anthony
20:51Paterson's a little bit underrated
20:53by the fan base?
20:55Obviously there's large swathes of the
20:57fan base that do rate him, but
20:59I always think sometimes when a player's been
21:01here a while, when
21:03he's homegrown as well, that we tend to focus
21:05maybe on what he can't do rather than what
21:07he can do. His distribution is criticised
21:09a little bit. That is an
21:11area of his game that he probably could improve
21:13on and probably is improving on.
21:15But I think he's magnificent as a shot stopper
21:17and I don't think sometimes he gets
21:19the credit that he perhaps
21:21deserves. I think he's
21:23brilliant. I think
21:25the way he's
21:27learned to command his area in these
21:29couple of years in the Championship, I think
21:31has been a real improvement. I know he still gets a little bit
21:33of stick for that every now and again, but I think
21:35he's improved immensely.
21:37Just looking at his stats here, he's 24,
21:39he's got 136 games as
21:41a young goalkeeper, EFL
21:43experience as well.
21:45He's potentially got
21:47the way goalkeepers go, he's
21:49potentially got another
21:5118, 17 years as
21:53a professional. I think he's in a marvellous
21:55position and that he's
21:57a really good asset to Zundeland.
22:03I think he's a huge asset.
22:05The simplest way to do it is to go
22:07and look and see how many homegrown goalkeepers
22:09at his age have played as many games
22:11as he has. I'd be amazed if there's any.
22:15Obviously, there's aspects of his game that can still
22:17improve. It would be very
22:19bizarre and he wouldn't be at Zundeland
22:21if that wasn't the case, if he was the all-round
22:23sort of, I think
22:25his command of his box,
22:27as you mentioned, is exceptional for someone of
22:29his age. I think
22:31he can be anything he wants to be.
22:33I kind of get it to an extent
22:35as last season in particular, I don't
22:37think he made as many
22:39game-changing saves as he did
22:41the year before and
22:43certainly in the run to promotion
22:45from Lee-Ward, if you think back to that save he made at Oxford
22:47when it was 1-1, that
22:49reflex one.
22:57I do kind of get it in a sense. I don't think there was
22:59as many of those moments last year
23:01where you were like, wow, he's
23:03won us two points there because of that save
23:05or whatever.
23:07I'm not being flippant about it,
23:09but I do just think
23:11it's one of the best things
23:13about the team right now. You've got
23:15a goalkeeper whose
23:17consistency at his
23:19age I think is astonishing.
23:21He's either going to take
23:23something to the Premier League or he's
23:25going to make the club a huge amount of money.
23:27I think sometimes
23:29he gets taken for granted. I do believe
23:31that, yes. But I kind of get that
23:33there maybe weren't as many eye-catching moments
23:35last season.
23:37There should be some sort of academic study
23:39on football fans taking their own
23:41players for granted.
23:43You had it a little bit with John Henderson back in the day
23:45as well. I've seen it a little bit with Dan Neal,
23:47Elliot Anderton over the years. It's really interesting
23:49the psychology behind that. Anyway,
23:51I digress. We'll move on. Phil,
23:53we've covered the goalkeeping situation,
23:55Matt Young, Dan Cameron,
23:57Anthony Patterson and the like.
23:59Throw me your next
24:01Sunderland summer transfer
24:03prediction.
24:05I think
24:07the
24:09smallest amount of business will be done in defence.
24:11I think the
24:13defensive group is pretty
24:15much done. I think
24:17that you have a back four of
24:19Hulme, O'Neill, Ballard
24:21and Eliseo Surkin.
24:23Every now and then you can play with a back three
24:25but I think that four is pretty much locked in.
24:27I don't see any of them leaving, even though I know
24:29there's interest in Hulme.
24:31You've then got Pembele,
24:33you've then got Triantis
24:35who could go out on loan
24:37but could potentially stay as cover while Seeds are covering.
24:39I think
24:41maybe one signing and one departure
24:43maximum in the defensive positions.
24:45I think that although last year was
24:47pretty horrendous at times,
24:49Sunderland's defensive record was pretty good.
24:51It's the area of the team that probably needs the least
24:53amount of work when you include Patterson in that.
24:55I think Sunderland's back
24:57four for the new season is
24:59pretty much locked in.
25:01I'll add to that by predicting
25:03Yelder to play
25:05more at centre-back perhaps.
25:07Yeah, I'd agree with that.
25:09Certainly to compete there.
25:11I think in pre-season I think we'll see Yelder
25:13play centre-half and have the chance to
25:15prove himself in that position.
25:17With Sealed obviously out as well
25:19I think Yelder will be
25:21the first line of cover, won't he?
25:23The other prediction I would make for him would probably be
25:25Jo Anderson to leave permanently
25:27or on loan again.
25:29I don't see his future at Sunderland. Could be wrong on that.
25:31They might keep him around as cover obviously.
25:33He's left-footed as well and can play at left-back.
25:35But Sunderland you'd think
25:37would be well stocked there.
25:39The other interesting one as well, to throw into that
25:41Phil, is the
25:43future of Nectar Triantis.
25:45In terms of his position, obviously
25:47he signed a long-term deal
25:49at Sunderland last summer
25:51but when he was at Hibs he played at midfield.
25:53That's a really interesting caveat.
25:55Yeah,
25:57that'll be an interesting one because
25:59I remember he said when he
26:01first signed, when he spoke to us
26:03in the media that he played a lot as a midfielder
26:05in his youth days in Australia
26:07and actually he'd been fairly late conversion
26:09to centre-back. Obviously
26:11he knew the coach at Hibs really well
26:13Nick Montgomery has now left. So that obviously
26:15didn't just come completely out of the blue. It is a position he's
26:17very comfortable in. The only thing I would say
26:19is I'm now looking at it going, well if
26:21Alan Brown and or other championship
26:23experience midfielder comes in
26:25actually all of a sudden
26:27I don't think
26:29there's going to be a huge amount of room for him to play there
26:31because you're going to have Dan Neal
26:33hopefully, Ekouar,
26:35Brown, Rigg. I think obviously he's now coming
26:37in as a contender for a central midfield
26:39position. So
26:41Jamie Tetty as well who we might come on
26:43to in a minute. So I do think
26:45yeah, we'll wait and see where he plays in
26:47pre-season but I think especially when you look at the fact that
26:49Sealt is now injured, I expect
26:51Treantis in pre-season at the start, probably
26:53in central defence
26:55and we'll see how he goes from there.
26:57They've very much signed him as a central defender
26:59so although I think it's an interesting option
27:01if a deal for Brown
27:03or whoever else, Norwood or anybody of that
27:05comes in, I think that probably cements
27:07Treantis' future
27:09in the centre of defence. In a way
27:11he could be one who goes out on loan
27:13I think if Yelder does okay
27:15in centre half in pre-season, I think that probably
27:17does free up Treantis to go and get some regular
27:19football. Do you want
27:21the centre to part as well, Phil Dren?
27:23I think so.
27:25I think
27:27possibly loan again
27:29because I think he's got two years left on his deal
27:31so if he
27:33plays another year
27:35hopefully regularly
27:37again. I know he went to Ligue 1 last
27:39year, if he was to do that again then that probably
27:41raises his value a little bit and it probably gives
27:43Anderson the chance of getting a better
27:45permanent move than he might get now.
27:47So I wonder if another loan for another
27:49season might be the best
27:51avenue and then you're either in a position
27:53where Sunderland can say, wow, you've
27:55made brilliant progress, we're really pleased
27:57with how you're doing, let's look at a new contract
27:59or they can say, look, you've done well
28:01but you're probably not going to break through here, you've got a year
28:03left, let's get you a good move and you can sort of
28:05crack on with your career.
28:07I'm going to go with a bit of a
28:09bit of a more interesting
28:11transfer prediction here. It's more of a
28:13prediction actually for the
28:15next season but I'm
28:17backing Elliot Embleton to return
28:19from injury and have an impact
28:21on Sunderland's season in some
28:23way, if he stays this
28:25summer that is, which is another
28:27interesting caveat to
28:29Sunderland's midfield options. I think
28:31perhaps that's my
28:33heart ruling my head there because I'm desperate
28:35for him to do well. Obviously
28:37a local lad scored that goal for us at
28:39Wembley, he's had rotten luck with injuries.
28:41I really hope he can come
28:43back into the fold
28:45which is going to be difficult for him, I understand that
28:47he's had so long out with injury but
28:49I would love to see him sort of break back
28:51into Sunderland's side and start making an
28:53impact, which given Sunderland's options is
28:55going to be hard but I genuinely do think he's
28:57got the talent, he's got the pedigree. People
28:59forget he was an England Youth International
29:01as well. I really like
29:03Embleton and I hope he can play in a number of positions
29:05and I'd love to see him do well again
29:07next season.
29:09Yeah, I think
29:11this podcast is very much
29:13an Elliot Embleton fan club, isn't it?
29:15We're both huge fans of Embleton.
29:17Listen, I think it's a big thing for him that he's been
29:19fully fit at the start of pre-season. The fact that
29:21he's not playing catch-up I think is huge.
29:23I'm not
29:25convinced on this one.
29:27If I had to make a prediction right now, I think
29:29it would be that Embleton will go. Not
29:31because I don't think
29:33he's good enough.
29:35He is good enough and I'd argue that
29:37until I'm blue in the face and I think he's massive
29:39but I just think
29:41what you're starting to see is maybe a little bit of
29:43a bottleneck in those positions.
29:45So you've got Dan Neal who hopefully
29:47we'll see emerges and more sort of attack
29:49in midfield. You've got Chris Rigg
29:51and let's make no bones about this, Chris Rigg
29:53stayed because he's going to get minutes.
29:55He has not turned down some of the best clubs in
29:57Europe to sit on some of the bench.
29:59Added his preferred position
30:01at some point.
30:03Adil Al-Shish
30:05obviously is an option.
30:07I just think there's a little bit of a
30:09bottleneck emerging there and my
30:11instinct with Embleton is that he'll just want to play.
30:13He's had 18 months not playing
30:15basically any
30:17football whatsoever. I just think
30:19he's going to want to play and he strikes me
30:21we saw it last summer when he went to Derby on loan
30:23you know he wants to play, he wants to be part
30:25of the team and so I think there's
30:27a decent chance he leaves. The caveat
30:29to that is as you mentioned his versatility
30:31is massive because the fact that you can play him
30:33as a 10, as an 8 off the left wing, off the
30:35right wing. There's a lot of positions in that
30:37squad where you know behind
30:39established players. So on the left wing for example
30:41Jack Clarke obviously what a player
30:43but at the moment there's not really anybody else
30:45in that position who's kind of shown that they're
30:47ready. So can I see Embleton working his way
30:49in as a good option in one of those positions? I definitely
30:51do. But I think with both him and
30:53Jamie Tetty I think there has to be a chance
30:55that they may go
30:57because I think that
30:59they're both going to want to play. They're both at important
31:01stages of their careers and while I rate them both hugely
31:03I think it's going to be quite difficult for them
31:05to get into the team initially and I
31:07think they may then look at it later through the window
31:09and say I just need to be playing whether it's
31:11a loan or a permanent.
31:13I would be
31:15absolutely buzzing if you're right that he comes
31:17and plays a part and I've got no doubt he's good enough
31:19to do it. Listen, he always seems to
31:21find a way to impact the game, make score contributions
31:23those kind of players are so valuable
31:25but I do think there's a chance
31:27that the kind of the bottleneck
31:29that I outlined there in some of those key positions
31:31for both Tetty and Embleton might mean
31:33that they seek passes new but
31:35the beauty of pre-season is everyone starts
31:37on a level foot and that's what's really exciting
31:39about them both in Tetty and Embleton.
31:41With a new head coach as well.
31:43With a new head coach exactly
31:45that's what's genuinely quite exciting about the next
31:47few weeks ahead. We're going to get the answers to all these questions
31:49and the fact that they're fully fit gives them
31:51a chance.
31:53What are you saying next up Phil, next summer transfer prediction?
31:59Give me a position
32:01on that prediction. Which one do you want to go to next?
32:03Well the only position that matters
32:05at Sunderland in transfer windows is up
32:07front.
32:09I think
32:11that
32:13I think that
32:15Sunderland are going to surprise
32:17us and sign an experienced
32:19championship strike.
32:21There we go.
32:25Yeah well it's going to be really interesting
32:27to see. The big issue as we've
32:29outlined loads of times on this podcast is the budget.
32:31These positions
32:33cost the most money.
32:37The championship interest from other clubs
32:39with potentially bigger budgets will be absolutely huge.
32:41But I'm taking my cue from January
32:43where we now know that they made a
32:45strong move for Kiefer Moore.
32:47My understanding is that there were at least two
32:49other what we would call championship
32:51experience players who
32:53they moved for and that
32:55tells me that nothing changed in the next six months
32:57to date in terms of there weren't any more obvious answers.
32:59So I think
33:01that there was actually an appetite to try and
33:03maybe be a bit more flexible and bring in
33:05an experienced player. I would imagine it to be on loan.
33:07So I'm
33:09relatively hopeful that they will try and address
33:11that and I'll chuck in another
33:13prediction. I think Louis
33:15Hume may go out on
33:17loan. I think there's a chance
33:19he... I don't
33:21get any impression yet that
33:23he's ready to
33:25or they see him as ready to be that
33:27regular number nine up front and I think
33:29we're in an issue where you've got a position where
33:31someone's actually invested quite a lot of money
33:33to bring Hume in last summer
33:35and they need to protect that value.
33:37So I think he needs to be playing and he needs to score
33:39goals. So if as I suspect
33:41it's going to happen it doesn't look like he's going to play
33:43regularly for this pre-season period
33:45I think they'll be looking and saying we need to get him out
33:47whether it's
33:49somewhere else in the UK or whether it's to
33:51Europe which I think is a possible option.
33:53Somewhere where he can play regularly, hopefully score
33:55some goals and then he should be in a better position
33:57to make a decision next summer.
33:59But yeah, that would be
34:01a prediction I'd make. I'd definitely think Hume
34:03is someone who could be in line for a
34:05loan move.
34:07Mayender as well do you reckon Phil?
34:09That's an interesting one. Would you think he
34:11would be the back-up to
34:13Sunderland's main man or
34:15he could potentially go out on loan again? He didn't actually play
34:17much football at Hibs when
34:19he joined them in January.
34:21Yeah, I don't know.
34:23The noise
34:25has previously been that they
34:27wanted to keep him at the club and help him because he's so
34:29young Mayender, that's all you have to remember.
34:31He's a genuine youth player.
34:33And the noise is around the club where
34:35we're just going to keep him. He might not play a lot
34:37but it'll be really helpful for him to train with the team
34:39regularly to get to understand the system better.
34:41He can improve
34:43his language skills, he can get used to the
34:45area more and then he's kind of quite
34:47randomly went on loan to Hibs which was just a really
34:49strange, I thought that was a really strange decision.
34:51I thought it was the wrong decision.
34:53My view would be to keep Mayender around.
34:55He's still so young.
34:57It's not absolutely imperative at this point
34:59that he's playing every single week.
35:01I think you get more by
35:03helping him adjust to his very,
35:05very new surroundings and
35:07letting him settle into training. Like I say,
35:09let him improve his English.
35:11I think you get more out of it.
35:13I think it would be more beneficial to keep Mayender
35:15at least until January
35:17and then make a decision then.
35:19I'm not convinced at this stage it makes a huge
35:21amount of sense to loan him out again but
35:23who knows.
35:25Final one from me Phil, final prediction.
35:27I think the Jack Clarke saga
35:29will go all the way down to
35:31deadline day. I think he'll probably
35:33play for Sunderland again. I think it'll go to deadline
35:35day. I think he'll play for
35:37Sunderland again.
35:39I agree. I think that's going to be
35:41hasn't really caught fire
35:43that story yet this summer has it?
35:45I think it's going to though isn't it?
35:47I don't think that'll last.
35:51My prediction is still
35:53that Clarke goes. I don't say
35:55that with absolute certainty
35:57because I think that Sunderland's
35:59view will definitely be, because he's got two years
36:01left not just one, I think they'll
36:03take the view that because
36:05it would be such a big gap in the team
36:07if he left right now, I think they'll
36:09want a huge bid because they'll be
36:11looking at it going, well even if
36:13we're better off rejecting
36:15good offers that isn't a huge offer now
36:17and if he has a brilliant season, we can still
36:19sell him for a pretty good fee next summer.
36:21Which is exactly what happened with Ross Stewart.
36:23They still recued a pretty big fee even though he's
36:25in his last year. So that
36:27means that I think they're in a pretty strong
36:29negotiating position and they will wait
36:31for a big bid and I think you're right.
36:33I think Premier League teams, I don't think they're
36:35just going to come and put the money straight down on the table.
36:37I think it'll be quite a drawn out process.
36:39I think he'll play again.
36:41I've no concerns about that. He's proven
36:43time and time again that the speculation doesn't really bother him that much.
36:45He's proven time and time again that he's not
36:47in a rush to leave.
36:49So I don't foresee there being a huge amount of issues
36:51there with it, but I agree with you.
36:53I think that'll be drawn out.
36:55If I had to make
36:57a prediction now, I still think he goes.
36:59But it's definitely not
37:01a totally clear cut.
37:03I think he probably does
37:05go as well, although there is
37:07a chance that he could stay
37:09I guess, and this relates to my final
37:11question, Phil.
37:13There's been a lot of talk about play sales at Sunderland
37:15and the model and Sunderland
37:17maybe aiming to sell one
37:19player a year
37:21for big money to
37:23fund rebuilds and what they want to do
37:25with the club. Is there a chance,
37:27given all the noise
37:29already this summer,
37:31that actually Sunderland might not sell anybody
37:33and the deal for Clarke might not be
37:35as good
37:37as they might retain him?
37:39Joe Bellingham
37:41early days, but he's going to stay.
37:43Patterson as well, we're predicting him to stay.
37:45Is there a chance actually that we might get to the end of the window
37:47and none of these players have gone, albeit
37:49a slim one?
37:51Definitely. There's definitely
37:53a chance of that.
37:55I think that we saw
37:57from the last accounts that the clubs
37:59lose money. It's not
38:01in an incredible
38:03position financially in that sense,
38:05but it's much better than most in the Championship.
38:07There are no
38:09FFP concerns.
38:11You've got to remember those last accounts didn't include
38:13the money for Ross Stewart, which is
38:15by no means insignificant.
38:17Also, his promotion
38:19with Southampton means there's a little bit
38:21more money from that deal as well.
38:23I don't think there's any
38:25immediate
38:27need to sell.
38:29In the contractual situations, the players means
38:31that they're not under any pressure.
38:33I don't think it's
38:35not beyond the question at all that
38:37nobody departs. I would be surprised
38:39and as I've outlined, I think there's reasons
38:41why this could be the
38:43window in which he goes, but it's not guaranteed.
38:45I don't think some of them are under pressure itself.
38:47Next summer, if some of them
38:49aren't in the Premier League, I think it's going to be a
38:51pretty obvious point for
38:53one, maybe two players to go,
38:55maybe even one or two more.
38:57All the noises are that this isn't
38:59going to be a selling window. I think they've been
39:01pretty good to their word on that in the past.
39:03I feel
39:05the contractual situations speak
39:07for themselves. There's definitely
39:09an outside chance of that.
39:11Excellent. Finally, Phil,
39:13what are you working on today? What can
39:15Sunland fans read over on the website
39:17and what will be coming in the
39:19course of the
39:21next week?
39:23Well, I'm on annual
39:25leave as of 5pm, so
39:27whatever you've got planned.
39:29Good for you.
39:31Well,
39:33I haven't had much of a
39:35break, have I, since the season
39:37ended for various reasons.
39:39We'll have a bit more stuff around
39:41the Alan Brown.
39:43I'm going to take a look at that Joel stuff
39:45as well, which we discussed earlier in the podcast.
39:47There'll be a bit more of an exploration of that
39:49in written form. I know well over the next
39:51few days there'll still be plenty
39:53to read about from the
39:55first press conference and from
39:57Christian Speighton as well.
39:59There's going to be stacks of stuff.
40:01Don't worry about that.
40:03Make sure you follow all of that. I'm going to do a shameless
40:05plug for myself as well. We
40:07had a little piece on Chris Regan's reasons
40:09for staying at Sunland, Kiri-Louis
40:11Dreyfuss' intervention.
40:13All of that good stuff, that's up on the website. If you'd like
40:15to have a read of that, you can find it on our
40:17social media as well. Phil's Alan Brown story
40:19is across our social media
40:21accounts. Also, this
40:23podcast is available at all podcast places.
40:25Thank you if you've joined us for the
40:27stream. We really appreciate that.
40:29We'll catch you next time.
40:31Thanks for listening and thanks for watching.
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