Which wines pair best with Asian cuisine?
On this episode of Zoom In Zoom Out, TaiwanPlus reporter Leslie Liao sits down with Lesley Liu, the head sommelier of Odette in Singapore, one of the world's highest-rated restaurants with three Michelin stars. We first zoom in on her journey to become one of Taiwan's leading wine experts, then zoom out to understand wine culture across Asia.
On this episode of Zoom In Zoom Out, TaiwanPlus reporter Leslie Liao sits down with Lesley Liu, the head sommelier of Odette in Singapore, one of the world's highest-rated restaurants with three Michelin stars. We first zoom in on her journey to become one of Taiwan's leading wine experts, then zoom out to understand wine culture across Asia.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Welcome to Zoom In Zoom Out, your global look at news from here in Taiwan. I'm Leslie Liao.
00:19What goes into fine dining? The months of planning, development and coordination. It's
00:25not just about eating, it's also about drinking. To tell us more about drinking culture when
00:30it comes to fine dining, I'm joined by Leslie Liu, Head Sommelier at Odette, a Michelin
00:363-star restaurant in Singapore. Now Leslie is also a Champion Sommelier, certified by
00:41Sopexa Singapore. She's spent years in the food and beverage industry and she's also
00:47won many awards for her ability to discern outstanding wines. Leslie, thank you so much
00:52for joining us.
00:53Thanks for having me. Thank you. Spending the time with you guys is amazing.
00:57First we want to zoom in. Now Leslie, you work at one of the highest rated restaurants
01:02in the world. Tell us a little bit about how you got into that as a career.
01:06I think this is a very challenging part, especially when you are a woman, it's a female, it will
01:11be even much more tougher. So it will be lots of people, especially in Asia, as not everybody
01:16can understand what you are doing, especially in fine dining restaurants. So I think when
01:21I start from my first career in hospitality, it's not about wine, it's about the food server
01:28and the restaurant. But after that I felt like I should do something more, so that I
01:32dig a bit more deeper.
01:34Now you told me that you are the only woman in Taiwan right now that holds an advanced
01:41ranking from the court of Master Sommelier. How does that feel?
01:45It was very challenging to be honest, because I just got it last year. I got it in Sydney,
01:50Australia. And this will be very, very tough for a few different parts. You have the theory,
01:56you have the practical, you have the blind testing. So everything is, you need to pass
02:01everything, you cannot miss that match for the score.
02:04So can you tell us a little bit more about what kind of training goes into becoming a
02:07sommelier?
02:08Basically it will be the review and preview, so all the wine regions, and usually I will
02:13settle for my study schedule. So it will be per region, and also specific for a few items,
02:19such as this will be the spirit day, and I will just study for all the spirits, and
02:22I'll recap it, and I will make the flashcard as well. Then when you decide to take the
02:26transportation, you still need to go and cook check, if you missed out something. Because
02:31everything is challenging, because people will challenge you as well. You didn't know
02:35just like probably people or guests, they will come to the restaurant, and they will
02:39ask you the question, because they probably will be like expert in certain file. So you
02:44need to be always very spot on, be very sharp.
02:47What does a typical work day for you look like?
02:49When I enter the restaurant, then I need to check out for all the wine by glass items,
02:54so I need to retest it, then I need to prepare the champagne trolley, I need to check for
02:57all the sweet 45 wine, we go with the cheese trolley. So everything is drinkable, I need
03:03to recheck once again, as long as it's by glass. Talking to the chef, do we have some
03:08new dishes, then prepare your wine pairing on the day spot.
03:12So how do you decide what wine goes good with what dish?
03:16I think I, now I work with the chef Julian for almost four, more than four years, I think
03:22I pretty, quite understand what is the style and what is usually for the sauces will be
03:28presented on the plate. So usually I test it, if it's the red wine sauce, of course
03:32you go with something a bit more heavier, but I try to be a bit more creative.
03:37Do you have a dish in mind that gave you the hardest time?
03:41Yes, because he used the hot broth, and because I think he's trying to remind people to enjoy
03:47Bak Kut Teh, which is like very, very local food, very traditional food in Singapore,
03:52and usually you will have very strong white pepper, and with the pork rib, and also have
03:56the garlic, and it's a hot broth. Something enjoyed with the hot broth with the spice,
04:01it's going to be very difficult to enjoy with wine. So usually I will be very challenging
04:06about this part, because the wine cannot be sweet, because it will be hit with the heat.
04:11It cannot be something too spicy, because you already have the spice in the food.
04:15It cannot be something too oily, too heavy-oak, because it's going to become bitter in the end.
04:19You said that the chef wants to do their own characteristics, and you have to taste the dish,
04:24and you get to bring your own characteristics into that. What are your characteristics?
04:28What do you want to bring?
04:29You want to enhance about the food, or you want to enhance about the wine.
04:33So usually I will be more a bit step back. So I prepare some wine, and you have the tanning,
04:37you have the structure, and I usually like to talk about the story behind the label.
04:41So I usually will choose the female winemaker, and because they can showcase about lady power,
04:47and they also can enjoy something, it's like aging potential. I really enjoy like Sihar,
04:51Ganache, this kind of silky tanning. The texture is beautiful, and not really well-known compared
04:57to like probably Pinot Noir or Cabernet Sauvignon. It's a little bit more low-key,
05:04a little bit more low-profile, so much more easy to enjoy the food, certain food only.
05:09Why did you leave Taiwan? You worked in everywhere from Taipei, you've worked in Taichung,
05:15you've also worked in Shanghai, now you're in Singapore.
05:18After graduating, I work in Limu in Taichung, which is a female chef called Chen Lanshu.
05:23She is also award best female chef in 2014. So actually she is the first one to tell me if you
05:32want to become an international recognized sommelier, you have to leave Taiwan, because
05:37you have zero experience, you have nothing related about wine. So that's why you have to go overseas
05:43to see what are the people doing. Let's get into your expertise. At the end of the day,
05:48I mean this is probably an oversimplification, what separates a good wine from a bad wine?
05:54This is really interesting question, but I won't really say it's a good wine or bad wine. I think
06:00it's only have the wine go with wrong occasion, because actually all the wine are good, but if
06:06you put the, if today we enjoy sushi, but you bring one very heavy, smoky, peaty whiskey,
06:13you're gonna have some like conflict, you're gonna have some attract to each other. I won't
06:19say it's bad, the sushi is good, the whiskey is good, but they won't work with each other together,
06:25so the food won't talk to you, the wine won't talk to the food as well. So I think it's only
06:29have the bad occasion, you put it wrongly. So the Court of Master Sommelier, you're advanced
06:33right now, the next level is master. What do you need to do to get to master level?
06:38First of all, you have to wait for two years, because in two years you need to get a seat.
06:43So you get a ticket, so keep studying and keep training for your blind testing. The sequence
06:49will be you have the six glasses in front of you, three white, three red, and in total you have 25
06:54minutes. So you need to talk about, wine number one is the white wine, the appearance is clear,
06:59it's true, you need to talk about everything. Then in the end you need to give the conclusion,
07:03it's like where this wine come from, what is the varietal, what is the vintage, what is the
07:08climates. Then six, so you need to at least need to correct five, or 5.5, then you will pass.
07:16Really quickly, Lester, we have a bottle of wine for you right here.
07:19Lester, can you tell me what you think about that wine, what's going through your head right now?
07:23It's much more fruit-driven, and it's not really light as your strawberry, it's a little bit more like
07:28blueberry, hints of mulberry, hints of the tannin, you can feel for the earthiness,
07:33like hints of the mushroom, and also have some like forest flora. The wine is easy approaching,
07:41and I think the temperature right now will be slightly more chill. I think it will, if you warm
07:45up a little bit, you'll have a much more flavor. This is the wine usually I can think about to
07:49enjoy with probably root vegetables, such as the beetroots, it's like green asparagus,
07:55now it's the season for the green asparagus and sugar snap peas, I think it can work with the
07:59wine very well. All right, Leslie, so now we want to zoom out. Let's talk about wine culture,
08:08particularly here in Asia. What have you noticed about Asia's wine culture?
08:12Hainanese people are very, very early to start drinking burgundy, and usually they don't drink
08:17something too... I won't say they are not open-minded, but just like if they only drink
08:23burgundy, they will drink all the cuvée, all the vintage, they will drink the vertical vintage.
08:28But compared to Singapore, and Singapore has so many different groups of people, so usually people
08:35they will drink something very funky, they are open-minded to try everything, but they won't
08:40drink something very deep, so they will be totally different. So I need to think about if I'm talking
08:44to Hainanese people, what is the body language and what is the knowledge I should bring to the table.
08:49You're saying you read body language when people come to the... Yeah. What kind of body language do
08:54you look for? Sometimes if there are two or three girls, the young girls, they come into the
08:59restaurant, they have a slightly heavier perfume, they like to take selfie, then you may need to
09:06have a glass of the rose champagne, because it's pink color, then you'd like to have some
09:10beautiful picture can showcase on your photo, so they might like to enjoy something a bit more
09:15sweeter, so might maybe carry sugar level recently, you'll be good for them. Then if you're the guy,
09:20you're just like sitting, this is very serious, probably he will be the boss, and he's the one
09:24paying, so that's why he doesn't want to have something too funky. So maybe go for Bordeaux,
09:29something like classic, and also you can showcase about just how important he is. What's it like
09:34pairing, you know, wine with European cuisine or Asian cuisine? Is it harder to pair it with one
09:41cuisine over the other? I think for Chef Julian, because his cooking philosophy, he is French,
09:47but he stay in Asia is almost like more than 20 years, so usually his dishes were trying to have
09:54a little bit engaged with the Asian culture, and we used to get lots of the like Japanese seafood
09:59and brought it to Singapore, so that's what it will be also can enhance about my pairing as well.
10:04I try to be much more everything. If you use the Japanese cuisine or Japanese ingredient,
10:09why not try the Japanese wine? You have a wine from Hokkaido, you have a wine from Yamanashi,
10:14so trying to let them a little bit more connection, then people will be much more
10:19understanding for the cuisine and also for the wine selection. Are there any vineyards in Asia,
10:25and how does their wine compare with the rest of the world? Thailand actually, they start to have
10:29some beautiful vineyard in the northeastern part, usually very important is they need to be located
10:35into valley. It's a very good like condition for the grapes, so usually in Taiwan as well, so Taiwan
10:40usually will be in central part, and Japan, Japan also starting to have a lots of lots of different
10:45wine, aside from sake. Sake, everybody drinking, beer, everybody drinking, but I think wine will be
10:51quite cool, and they're really working hard on it. Yeah, India, even India also has. India's got wine.
10:56Yes, India has wine, and usually they will always start with like spirits. They will always start
11:02with like cornia, or probably you have a whiskey, then after they will start to have some grapes,
11:07but it takes time. What about Taiwan wine? Is Taiwan wine a thing? Is it up and coming? You
11:13said you like to include it in the wine list. Does Taiwanese wine show any promise?
11:20I think Taiwanese wine, because so far you have a few wineries, but
11:25one will be Weston, it's a much more famous, much more well-known, and now Singapore we can get it.
11:31They're trying, I think they are doing, the first one they're doing, because the grapes will be
11:36always hybrid, so it's not like international, people understanding for international grapes,
11:43but usually they will be very kind of aroma, lots of the like tropical fruits, which is I always
11:49describe is very suitable for Taiwan's weather, and they're very smart to do the sparkling,
11:54because sparkling usually you need to, you don't need to wait until it's fully ripe, you already can
11:59have the structure, you already can have the aroma, you make it sparkling, easy to drink. Do you think
12:05there's a growing interest in people in wine tasting here in Asia, and if you do, where would
12:11you like to see the industry go? I really want to have the much more talent, young talent people can
12:17join the industry, because eat and drink will be the best thing for your daily life, so I think
12:22everybody should, even you don't want to really do for the hospitality industry, you still can
12:27understand it, so start from understanding, then I think wine testing will be, it will be much more
12:33easier for everybody, because wine and beverages is for sharing, it's not like things you need to,
12:38it's not a tool to make money, so I always tell the young generation, it's like even you don't
12:43know about it, but if you have the free testing, you just go for it, because when you test more,
12:48you will have automatically have the muscle memory, you have the sense, okay, I like it, I don't like
12:52it, as long as you can define what is the things you enjoy a lot, then just go for it. Leslie,
12:59what is the one thing that you enjoy about your job, what is the thing that you love the most
13:04about your work? I like to talk to people, whenever I give you some recommendation or give you some
13:09suggestion, if they kind of, oh so cool, how come you can read my mind, I always just feel like, oh
13:15yes, I got it, I understand it, yes, just like this will be part of achievement for my job,
13:21when I see the people, they understanding why I recommend this wine, I will give you the reason,
13:27and sometimes the people don't want to talk to you too much, and they kind of test you,
13:31do you know about this wine, yes, actually that you give some answer, they will be like, okay,
13:37this lady, this girl, she knows wine, they will start to build up the trust in between,
13:44so I feel like this will be much more important for my job. Well, thank you for joining us on this
13:49very special Leslie and Leslie edition of Zoom In Zoom Out. For more stories from Taiwan and around
13:55the world, please visit our social media or visit the Taiwan Plus website. Thank you for watching
13:59and see you next time.
14:30In the face of adversity, the power of truth.
14:37A roadmap for a just and open world, charted by the freest country in Asia.
14:45Taiwan Plus News, a voice of freedom in Asia. For the biggest stories in tech,
14:51business and more, be sure to follow Taiwan Plus on social media.
14:59Taiwan.